View Full Version : Grip Problem: Support hand slipping forward
mkmckinley
12-04-10, 17:33
Hopefully some of you can suggest ways to correct a problem I'm having. Basically as I shoot my M&P9 my support hand wants to slip forward and kind of curl. The part of my palm that starts in contact with the grip and my strong hand wants to slip forward under recoil leaving a gap between my palms. At the same time my support hand fingers curl up to try to maintain grip pressure. I have to readjust my grip every three of four rounds. What am I doing wrong and how do I fix it?
What backstrap are you using?
Concentrate on slow fire accuracy drills while mentally applying pressure on the palm of your support hand onto the grip of the gun.
I found that most of my grip slipping issues were due to two reasons.
1. I wasnt gripping hard enough with my support hand.
2. I was hyper extending the shit out of my support hand. I backed it off a bit by rotating my wrist back towards my body. I am still shooting thumbs forward but i am now able to apply more reaction hand grip to the frame.
I will have pictures up for you just as soon as my lady friend gets home to take them for me. The picture will explain this better than words. Hopefully these solutions will work for you too!!!
EDIT: Pictures!
Support hand hyper extended.
http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/5944/mpgrip11of1.jpg (http://img29.imageshack.us/i/mpgrip11of1.jpg/)
Support hand still locked out but rotated back slightly. The grip looks almost the same. Note the thumb has moved back a bit on the frame. It is a minute difference but drastically changes the amount of pressure i can apply to the frame.
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/1011/mpgrip21of1.jpg (http://img24.imageshack.us/i/mpgrip21of1.jpg/)
Support hand wrist hyper extended forward. Ive moved my strong hand off of the back of the gun to show that there is a gap in my coverage of the pistol frame. When gripping the pistol like this there is actually a very small gap in between my reaction hand and my strong hand.
http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/6932/mpgrip31of1.jpg (http://img440.imageshack.us/i/mpgrip31of1.jpg/)
Reaction hand rotated slightly back. Note less of a gap, more meat on the grip of the pistol and im actually comfortable holding and gripping in this position.
http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/7697/mpgrip41of1.jpg (http://img8.imageshack.us/i/mpgrip41of1.jpg/)
My apologies for the slightly blurry photos, was in a bit of a rush to get out the door. Let me know if any of this makes any sense. Also, note that the pistol is equipped with the medium backstrap.
mkmckinley
12-04-10, 22:53
Wow. Thanks for the post, this is the kind of thing that makes this site amazing.
I also use the medium backstrap and from the pictures it looks like we have similar sized hands. I can't wait to try your technique at the range. I notice you have a stippling job on the grip. That's something I'm looking at doing. Do you think it makes a difference with regard to what we're discussing here?
Wow. Thanks for the post, this is the kind of thing that makes this site amazing.
I also use the medium backstrap and from the pictures it looks like we have similar sized hands. I can't wait to try your technique at the range. I notice you have a stippling job on the grip. That's something I'm looking at doing. Do you think it makes a difference with regard to what we're discussing here?
Im sorry that the pictures arent better quality. I hope they got the point across that im trying to make.
Closing up gaps in your firing grip are essential when it comes to managing recoil, tracking your sights and keeping your hands on the weapon. You often times dont notice what you're doing wrong until you either see a picture of yourself doing it or someone points it out. Generally what is happening is the pistol is moving in your hands. Its not actually your reaction hand slipping. Tightening up the grip and ensuring seamless integration between your hands and the pistol generally solves this issue.
I was helped in both ways. My best friend suggested i close up the gaps in my grip and after looking at a few photos of myself shooting i quickly realized where i was deficient.
Stippling definitely helps, especially on a gun that is as slick as the M&P. I sweat like its going out of style. Im not hyper hydrosis bad but its pretty awful, especially when im attempting to crush the grip of my pistol under recoil, its almost like im wringing the sweat out of my hands lol. :)
I really hope this helps, keep us updated on your progress.
Magsz brings up a great point that is often overlooked. If you really cam your support wrist forward you lose the ability to apply as firm of a grip as you would if you back off slightly. Try relaxing the angle of your support hand and see if that makes a difference. From my experience though, pinching and rolling the support hand onto the gun and gripping the snot out of it is conducive to having that hand pop right off of the gun during recoil unless you can generate enough friction to keep the hand on the gun. Think about it - the gun is going to recoil back and then up when the shot breaks. Unless you have adequate friction between your support hand and the gun, it will break away as you've described.
If you don't want to add stippling or tape to provide the necessary friction then you can try adding a small amount of push-pull or inward compression to keep the hands together. Also, try varying how you apply your support hand to the gun. Rather than coming back onto the gun and then wrapping your hand around, try applying the thumbmeat portion of the hand first onto the gun and then wrapping your fingers around over the strong hand fingers. For me, this prevents my strong hand from wedging into the support hand, creating the ideal conditions for separation.
Here's the deal from what I've been able to gather over the last three years of obsessing over grip technique. Your ultimate goal should be to have the sights tracking in such a manner as to be predictable from shot to shot. Being able to trust that your front sight is going to recover quickly into its proper alignment with the rear sight without substantial adjustment is what allows for very fast shooting. However you grip the gun, this should be your ultimate goal.
You're going to have to experiment with different ways to form your grip before you find what works best for you. Try a relaxed grip and then a firm grip. Try locking your support wrist and then keeping it more neutral. Try Matt Burkett's "pinch and roll" and then try applying the grip as I described above. Do all of these things while watching carefully what your sights do during recoil until you find what works best.
Finally, strengthening your grip doesn't hurt. I have small, bony hands and when I started working strength I could barely close a CoC #1 gripper. Now I can close a #2 CoC gripper for a set of 3-5 in each hand and I'm finding that this is helping my shooting. Ultimately though I'm relying on a technique that depends less on strength so it's not necessary.
What do you guys think about elbows...down or rotated out?
Elbows out will usually result in a natural inward pressure on the gun with good contact between the thumbmeat of the support hand and the grip of the gun. Elbows down often helps lock the support hand wrist without requiring an excessive cam forward on the gun.
Personally, I usually just press the gun out to eye level and let my elbows point naturally. My arms tend to go to just short of full extension with only a slight bend outwards. That being said, I've been playing around lately with bringing just my support side elbow up and out.
Brian Enos is big on making the grip be only in the hands and forearms with everything else being in a neutral or relaxed state. If done correctly, the arms and shoulders passively absorb a lot of the recoil impulse (like a shock), allowing the gun to track very consistently. Unfortunately for me, I lack adequate meat in my hands to keep enough friction on the gun to do this (without tape or stippling).
Robb Jensen
12-05-10, 17:37
Hopefully some of you can suggest ways to correct a problem I'm having. Basically as I shoot my M&P9 my support hand wants to slip forward and kind of curl. The part of my palm that starts in contact with the grip and my strong hand wants to slip forward under recoil leaving a gap between my palms. At the same time my support hand fingers curl up to try to maintain grip pressure. I have to readjust my grip every three of four rounds. What am I doing wrong and how do I fix it?
Texturing or grip-taping a M&P will help immensely. Also your support hand should have most of the grip pressure. Some say 60-70% of your grip strength (the other 30-40% coming from your shooting hand). That's hard to measure. The shooting hand should not really be holding the gun with any more pressure than it would take to hold a hammer you are swinging. You don't need a death grip just a firm grip that doesn't allowed it to move. Your support hand should be in a position like you're shaking hands with someone.
Here's a pic of my grip from the 2010 NC Section (USPSA match), I was 3rd B class in Production division:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/RobbMP.jpg
dookie1481
12-05-10, 17:39
Finally, strengthening your grip doesn't hurt. I have small, bony hands and when I started working strength I could barely close a CoC #1 gripper. Now I can close a #2 CoC gripper for a set of 3-5 in each hand and I'm finding that this is helping my shooting. Ultimately though I'm relying on a technique that depends less on strength so it's not necessary.
Hmmm...I didn't even think about this. I have a Trainer and #1 that I should get to work on.
Jay
1. I wasnt gripping hard enough with my support hand.
2. I was hyper extending the shit out of my support hand. I backed it off a bit by rotating my wrist back towards my body. I am still shooting thumbs forward but i am now able to apply more reaction hand grip to the frame.
Both points are worth repeating, especially the second one. When importance of forward cant with support hand became so emphasized, I started going after that, forming nearly straight line between top of the wrist and forearm. It lead to hand separation in recoil, especially with 45 ACP. I started looking into the problem, and analyzed many photos of top shooters. I realized that almost nobody hyperextends their support wrists. It is extended forward, it is locked and the grip is strong, but it is not hyperextended. Just look at the pic Robb has posted. One can certainly rotate support wrist forward even more, but, in my experience, the result will be counterproductive.
I find that shooting higher-recoiling calibers (45 in my case) from time to time gives a very good "reality check" on one's grip.
Most likely you are running the majority of your grip pressure from your strong hand with the lighter pressure from the support hand. Try the reverse. Beside helping with the disconnect of the support hand, it will help with your trigger press skill.
The fine motor skill required in a precission shot with the trigger finger will be easier with a reduced grip pressure of the strong hand.
Use the support hand to hold the strong hand more firmly to the gun.
My opinion
dookie1481
12-05-10, 21:33
Both points are worth repeating, especially the second one. When importance of forward cant with support hand became so emphasized, I started going after that, forming nearly straight line between top of the wrist and forearm. It lead to hand separation in recoil, especially with 45 ACP. I started looking into the problem, and analyzed many photos of top shooters. I realized that almost nobody hyperextends their support wrists. It is extended forward, it is locked and the grip is strong, but it is not hyperextended. Just look at the pic Robb has posted. One can certainly rotate support wrist forward even more, but, in my experience, the result will be counterproductive.
I find that shooting higher-recoiling calibers (45 in my case) from time to time gives a very good "reality check" on one's grip.
I have realized that I have the exact same problem. Time to get to work :)
I was extremely pleased to see this thread last night because I have exactly the same problem with my M&P FS, although I shoot a .40 so my problem could be worse. As the pistol fires, it literally "jumps" reaward from my support hand. After a couple of shots in a fast string, unless I adjust my grip (which I hate to do) I'm squeezing the front half of the grip with my support hand, and my palm is digging into my strong hand three fingernails. (I have small hands.)
Skateboard tape helped, but not enough. I sent one of my M&Ps off to have the grip stippled and I really hope that works. If I can't find a way to maintain a solid grip through fast strings of fire, I'm afraid I will have to step down to an M&P9, or return to my 1911s, where I don't have this problem.
The gun is going to want to recoil back and up. If you keep a neutral upper body (i.e. no tension, push-pull, etc) and a rigid support hand, you have to have enough friction between your support hand and the gun to prevent them from separating. Otherwise the gun will pop right out. If your hands are small or fit the gun is such a way that you're not really able to firmly press the support hand thumbmeat (portion of the palm right below the thumb) against the grip of the gun then you might consider adding a little inward pressure or some push-pull. I've found that it only takes a little to keep my hands together during rapid fire. I still grip very firmly with both hands (more with the support) but it's not my grip-strength that keeps my hands in place; rather, it's the very slight push-pull and inward pressure that naturally occurs as a result of my upper-body configuration.
Bill Drills are the ultimate way to test your grip. If you're able to keep your hands in place through a string of 5-6 shots then your grip is probably adequate.
The best lesson I've learned over the last few years is, just because someone else can grip a gun a particular way with great results, that doesn't mean I can do the same thing. I've had much better success understanding all of the variations and approaches to forming the grip and then seeing what works for me. I don't hyper-flex my support hand and then grip the snot out of the gun. I just can't make that work. Rather, I concentrate on forming an even, two-handed grip that encircles the gun and then let it do its thing. I'm finding that when I do that and then focus on tracking the sights, I seem to have pretty good luck.
Not sure if it's been said yet, but I think shooters who lock their arms/elbows tend to experience more slipping in their grip.
If you have adequate friction between your skin and the gun, and adequate pressure in your grip the gun won't shift. If you lock your arms out completely, you now need to hold on tighter. If your elbows/ arms aren't absorbing the shock, your grip is trying to fight 100% of the energy.
If the arms can float and act like shock absorbers, the force that would be almost completly between your grip and gun now moves back into your arms instead. It like either hanging onto the gun and going for a ride, or fighting it and trying to keep your hands locked in one place while the gun attempts to move.
If you ride along with the gun, it'll settle back down where you want it to, and your grip won't shift. IMO, stippling, grip tape, etc. is a must (unless your gun is already sufficently textured ie:RTF frame Glock, G-10 gripped 1911, etc).
I dont disagree coolbreeze but what about under intense stress, ie an adrenaline dump?
Dont most people push out to full extension?
I think there is too much variance based upon body composition. Dave Sevigny is a pretty good example of an extreme bend in the elbows. For me, thats not comfortable and thusly, not sustainable.
I think a slight bend in the elbows is all that is required in order to help mitigate recoil.
I dont disagree coolbreeze but what about under intense stress, ie an adrenaline dump?
Dont most people push out to full extension?
I think there is too much variance based upon body composition. Dave Sevigny is a pretty good example of an extreme bend in the elbows. For me, thats not comfortable and thusly, not sustainable.
I think a slight bend in the elbows is all that is required in order to help mitigate recoil.
I'm not sure.
I know LAV and Hackathorn both emphasized the importance of NOT pushing out to full extension when shooting on the move.
I also remember the comments being made "if you're confident in doing it, you'll do it. If you're not comfortable doing it, you won't do it" (under stress). This comment was made in reference to using your sights, but I believe it should apply.
That said, the extent of what I've shot includes paper, cardboard and steel targets. So, that's just my take on things.
I'm not sure.
I know LAV and Hackathorn both emphasized the importance of NOT pushing out to full extension when shooting on the move.
I also remember the comments being made "if you're confident in doing it, you'll do it. If you're not comfortable doing it, you won't do it" (under stress). This comment was made in reference to using your sights, but I believe it should apply.
That said, the extent of what I've shot includes paper, cardboard and steel targets. So, that's just my take on things.
Check.
The people that ive learned from have all said very much the same thing. Full extension then back off to the point where you're comfortable and it doesnt hurt. They did however specifically say that under stress the body does have a tendency to go to extremes.
John_Wayne777
12-07-10, 07:02
A couple of other things that helps to eliminate separation under recoil:
1. Involving your pectoral muscles. Think of pressing your hands together using your pecs...this helps keep the gun from going anywhere. The more bend you have in your elbows the more pressure you can apply with your pecs.
2. Applying positive pressure to the rear with the support hand. Actually pulling the weak hand back into the strong hand a little bit helps eliminate any gaps in your grip (gaps are bad) and helps diminish the chances of separation.
3. Friction. Most plastic handguns are too slick in that critical area just below the slide release where the meat of your support hand makes contact with the grip. Adding a surface that promotes friction there will help keep your hands on the gun. I use 3M Safety Tape (you can find it at home depot) because it's cheap, readily available, and it's extremely durable. A single application can last for a couple of years. The grit is aggressive enough that it provides a good gripping surface, but the grit doesn't shed like it does on some inferior products. (Which then gets into your kydex holster and begins tearing up the finish of your handgun every time it goes into, out of, or rides in the holster)
mkmckinley
12-07-10, 20:29
There is some awesome advice on here. I really appreciate everyones input. I haven't had a chance to hit the range since I posted but I'm looking forward to trying the techniques mentioned here. I'll post my results.
mkmckinley
12-12-10, 17:13
After a couple range sessions I think you guys have diagnosed and helped me correct my problem. I tried a combo of more support hand grip and less support hand rotation and that was enough to pretty much fix the problem. My sights are tracking better as well. I tried using my pecs a little and a little bit of rearward pressure with my support hand but that seemed unnatural and require a lot of concentration on my part. I may try to get more accustomed to doing those things in order to make them an effortless part of my stance. In retrospect it seems like it would have been pretty easy to figure some this out on my own but sometimes I guess it takes an outside observer to point things out.
Thanks everyone, you saved me a lot of time and training ammo.
After a couple range sessions I think you guys have diagnosed and helped me correct my problem. I tried a combo of more support hand grip and less support hand rotation and that was enough to pretty much fix the problem. My sights are tracking better as well. I tried using my pecs a little and a little bit of rearward pressure with my support hand but that seemed unnatural and require a lot of concentration on my part. I may try to get more accustomed to doing those things in order to make them an effortless part of my stance. In retrospect it seems like it would have been pretty easy to figure some this out on my own but sometimes I guess it takes an outside observer to point things out.
Thanks everyone, you saved me a lot of time and training ammo.
This is awesome. Really glad you're doing better. Please keep us updated on your progress as you continue trying new techniques.
I personally started video taping myself to see where i was deficient and between the video and my shooting partner pointing out issues, ive improved alot of areas where i was lacking.
I dont disagree coolbreeze but what about under intense stress, ie an adrenaline dump?
Dont most people push out to full extension?
I think there is too much variance based upon body composition. Dave Sevigny is a pretty good example of an extreme bend in the elbows. For me, thats not comfortable and thusly, not sustainable.
I think a slight bend in the elbows is all that is required in order to help mitigate recoil.
I have found that a good way to not fully extend your arms out is to shoot with plates on. The do not allow you to fully press out.
C4
I have found that a good way to not fully extend your arms out is to shoot with plates on. The do not allow you to fully press out.
C4
Every body and interplay with gear being different, I find that hard plates don't allow me to pinch hands together as well as I'd like.
Every body and interplay with gear being different, I find that hard plates don't allow me to pinch hands together as well as I'd like.
Correct. So that is why you have to bring them in (like in a retention CQB position). Because of having to do this, it is nearly impossible to hyper extend ones arms.
C4
This is some great information on nuances for pistol shooting. Plan to adjust my grip accordingly. Thank you for all your insights.
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