View Full Version : Wilson Combat or Les Baer
So I have been thinking of stepping up from my carry Series 70 Colt, and Les Baer and Wilson Combat are the two brands at the top of my list. A couple of questions for those who know these pistols:
1. How do the Baer and Wilson guide rod, spring and bushing assembly differ from a standard WWII milspec (other than being tighter for accuracy)?
2. Is there a good reason why Wilsons seem to cost a lot more than Baer? Worth it?
Thanks!
Hard to go wrong with either, but I having owned both, I still have my Wilson CQB.
cant go wrong with a Nighthawk either.
that being said I'd get the Baer.
willowofwisp
12-05-10, 07:13
I owned and shot a les baer in competition PPC and the thing was crazy accurate...a les baer isn't as pretty as a wilson combat but the thing runs like a machine and every part shows evidence of being hand fit, almost every part on a les baer has the last 3 digits of its serial number engraved onto it.
both are great guns but normally baer's are cheaper by at least 300$
Cant go wrong with the Lesbaer Thunder Ranch . Can usually get one used for $1450 on gun broker . Its a series 70 with standarad guiderod and night sights . There is also a big discussion on snipershide about the subject . BEST BANG for the $$ !!
You can spend up to $4000 on a 1911 but you wont get a tighter gun . I think after owning all off them , get something tight shoot it loose if you can . Seen blue Lesbaers with thousaands of RDS though them that you can only squeeze the oil out of them (no play between frame ,slide or lock up) . good luck its only money
If you are gonna spend that kind of money, get a Vickers....
snakedoctor
12-05-10, 09:35
Its really hard to debate who's better. I have a few different models from both makers. Both my Wilsons and Baers are very accurate and more reliable than any other 1911 than I own. I guess it'll all come down to what features you want on the pistol. Wilson is more of a custom gun shop than Baer but Les does take special requests. If I really had to chose I'd probably go with Wilson Combat.
ditto. Can't go wrong with a NightHawk Custom GRP which is equivelant to a WC CQB but less expensive.
So I have been thinking of stepping up from my carry Series 70 Colt, and Les Baer and Wilson Combat are the two brands at the top of my list. A couple of questions for those who know these pistols:
1. How do the Baer and Wilson guide rod, spring and bushing assembly differ from a standard WWII milspec (other than being tighter for accuracy)?
WWII milspec guns had no guide rods. Original design = no guide rod. Guide rods are a contentious topic in the 1911 world, with 1911 purists firmly against them for various reasons. As both make a large selection of 1911s with various choices, you'd have to narrow down to the specific model.
2. Is there a good reason why Wilsons seem to cost a lot more than Baer? Worth it?
Thanks!
Wilson guns tend to come with more bells and whistle custom touches, most of them visual in nature, but again, so many different models, hard to generalize. A les baer with similar options will run around the price of a Wilson CQB for example.
General opinion is, hard to go wrong with either, so it comes down to options, models, and what you feel it worth your $$$. Ed Brown also make a very fine 1911 and the 1911s from the SA custom shop are second to none and highly thought of with those who shoot other people with 1911s.
I'd go browse the 1911 forums for feedback on models, customer service (VERY important when buying a high end 1911) etc.
The Baer Thunder Ranch is the best value out there in 1911's. I put several thousand rounds through mine before I got out of 1911's without a malfunction and very little cleaning.
Mine would cycle empty brass, several kinds of LSWC's, 230 RN at anywhere from 650 to 900 and every hollowpoint I ever stuck in it.
Basically if it fit in the magazine it would feed it. Using my home cast 230's and Bullseye it would shoot one ragged hole at 25 yards.
Amp Mangum
12-05-10, 13:37
Both are great guns. In the end pick the one that has the features you want. You can usually find some good deals on lightly used ones on the net. Wilson's warranty follows the gun, not sure about Baer's.
I really like my pair of Baer TRS 5" Pistols.
That said, a good Wilson CQB, Nighthawk (especially the 10-8 or Vickers), Brown (EE or SF), Springfield PRO, or Baer CC will fit the bill as well.
All these 1911's are so well made that a gently used one will still be an amazing shooter, so especially if you find one configured to your liking used, jump on it.
My first TRS was a drunk impulse buy - but it came with an installed Dawson Light rail, and a pile of Wilson magazines, and I couldn't be happier with that pistol. It goes with me everywhere possible.
Both are great guns. In the end pick the one that has the features you want. You can usually find some good deals on lightly used ones on the net. Wilson's warranty follows the gun, not sure about Baer's.
Night hawk warranty follows gun also
MarshallDodge
12-05-10, 18:37
Les Baer makes great 1911's and so does Wilson. I tend to lean toward Baer pistols because that is what I own. You see a lot of Baer's running strong through high round count classes and matches, mine included.
If you want something a little more refined then get the Wilson but you can't go wrong with a Baer, especially a TRS.
I trust my life on a Wilson CQB.
I am currently using a Wilson CQB, a Wilson CQB LT and a Baer SRP. They have all worked to perfection. The Baer is hard chromed so it gets the vote because it is easier to clean.
Powder_Burn
12-05-10, 21:49
I have experience with both the Concept IV and a Premier II from Les Baer. They are both excellent pistols and the tight slide/frame fit seems to have no effect on reliability. The Concept V was the most accurate handgun I have ever shot. Many folks have posted documentation showing high round counts through Baer's so they are vetted as well. Wilson Combats seem to be high quality as well but I do not have firsthand trigger time behind one.
I don't own either, but I don't think you could go wrong.
That being said, I'd avoid a blued pistol and go with one that's been duracoated or some equivalent (or better) finish to prevent rust.
Bluing can/will rust and if you're carrying it, you're going to eventually sweat on it. I think that type of finish will wear the best.
That'd be all I'd have to say. Find out the features you want, FLGR or GI Length, Mag Well, Light Rail, Front/Back Strap Checkering options, weapons sights.
I'd say look for what packages are available that fit the bill for whatever you want to do, not necessarily go with one brand or another.
Because honestly, whenever you differentiate from something that they stock, the price IMHO (That's already through the roof, goes further).
I think you'd be fine to buy an SA Pro, Wilson, NightHawk, Les Baer, Brown, (Heck even RR apparently has nice semi-custom 1911's.), etc.
I don't think you can go wrong at those price points.
I forgot to mention that for exactly the cost difference between a used blued BAER and a Wilson, one can send the Baer out to get IonBonded.
BWT has it right - among the semi-custom makes and models, it's hard to go wrong. Figure out the feature set, find the models that are closest, and price out the options with the changes you'd make to reach your ideal pistol.
Wilsons seem to shoot a little better for me. But, I paid a lot less for my Baers. The difference in quality is not enough to justify the price difference.
I wonder how price conscience we are when we look at a pistol that costs what either one of them do. I would not pick one gun over the other, in the price range these things are, because I can save a few hundred dollars. Mercedes or BMW? With the workmanship and quality of both, I'm getting the one I want.
ColdDeadHands
12-06-10, 06:47
I think it comes down to what you like better looks - wise. My Baer TRS has been perfect. You can get a Baer Trs ~ $1700. That's roughly a grand cheaper then a Wilson CQB.
If you want to spend more then $1700 i'd get a Dave Berryhill or Mars custom 1911.
My first 1911 was a Les Baer TRS. At the time I knew nothing about 1911's as I was a Glock guy. I just knew after shooting one that I was hooked. Didn't know there was such a thing as tight or loose, and I figured if Clint Smith liked the TRS, that was good enough for me.
I have since owned a lot of different 1911's, many from some of the biggest names. Most ran well, but none could touch the TRS in terms of liability. Granted, we are talking about my big whole sample of "one". Maybe I got the TRS built by the new eager beaver on Monday looking to impress Les.
As I learned more about 1911's, I learned that my TRS was way too tight and it would not run well when dirty. My guns get pretty dirty quick here in Vegas when training, so that was a concern. So after a couple years of only shooting and carrying the TRS, I started buying other 1911's. Yet I always come back to the TRS. The damn thing just always ran no matter what. I loaned it out to other students, I taught new shooters with it, and trained with it. I took many classes with it where it went 2-3 days and close to 2,000 rds without cleaning or lube and it never had a problem. Even though it never failed me, I always had the internet guys in the back of my head whispering "it is too tight, it won't run more that 400 rds without locking up, it can't handle sand, etc. "
In the end, what I learned with the TRS and super tight 1911's is that a very tight 1911 can run extremely well, in a variety of conditions, if built CORRECTLY. Here in the sand, I think being tight was almost a benefit as it seemed to keep more of the fine dust and sand out of the gun, where as some of my looser 1911's would get sand in between the frame, slide, and barrel and start to get sluggish.
But alas, like many of us, I fell victim to the grass is always greener argument and traded it off just past 13k rounds a very well known and respected trainer. I still regret that trade almost daily. I think I got Jedi mind tricked!
Here are a couple pics after a Jeff Gonzalez class before cleaning it. It was loaned out to a study whose gun, a Glock 19 (go figure) went down in the first hour and he did not have a spare. As you can see, after around 1200 rds it really wasn't all that bad on the inside. The outside was wiped down.
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y105/scotsemmens/DSC00114.jpghttp://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y105/scotsemmens/DSC00131.jpghttp://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y105/scotsemmens/DSC00132.jpghttp://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y105/scotsemmens/DSC00128.jpghttp://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y105/scotsemmens/DSC00079.jpg
Don't get me wrong,I love my nighthawk but if I could have found a Baer with the same financing that I get with nighthawks I would have had one.I'm a broke father of 2 little girls and thats the only way I could get a highend 1911.I'm a blued gun fan.
If you are gonna spend that kind of money, get a Vickers....
A Vickers what? The gun Nighthawk doesn't build anymore? The one that used to cost $500 more than a Wilson CQB?
Along these lines, this might be of interest:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=65174
Ed Brown and don't look back.
Both Wilson and Baer build nice guns.
My experience with Baer pistols is they are overly tight for my tastes. That may not be something you care about. I also shoot and carry my handguns, and I will absolutely destroy a blued finish within weeks.
If it's intended as a range gun, a Baer will serve you well.
theJanitor
12-09-10, 13:14
A Vickers what? The gun Nighthawk doesn't build anymore?
well, definitely not a true vickers ;)
out of the two choices, i'd go with wilson, as my (one) les baer is not very reliable. to be equitable, I am assuming comparing a TRS to a CQB, although the TRS is a prettier gun.
OP, what is wrong with your Colt? can you take the money that you'd spend on a new gun, and get yours worked/reworked to your specific requirements?
Both Wilson and Baer build nice guns.
My experience with Baer pistols is they are overly tight for my tastes. That may not be something you care about. I also shoot and carry my handguns, and I will absolutely destroy a blued finish within weeks.
If it's intended as a range gun, a Baer will serve you well.
While I tend to agree with you, and will no longer buy blued guns, the blueing on my Baer held up very well. It was carried IWB daily for close to 5 years in the Vegas heat, with the frame constantly up against my sweaty body, and only started to rust right where the S&A magwell touched the frame. As long as I wiped it down each night it was fine.
Army Chief
12-09-10, 18:15
Honestly, I think the first thing that I would do is to send the Colt to a competent smith for renovations and tuning. Barring this, I would opt for a Wilson -- and quite possibly, a lightly-used example of whatever model caught my interest. Retail prices on these guns have climbed steadily, which is a testament to their enduring popularity.
I haven't a thing against Baers, but Wilson produces a number of very well-balanced packages, backs their products with legendary service, and carries the cachet of a premium brand when it comes to resale. Baers are exceptional guns in their own right, but most models strike me as better suited to bullseye shooting than to carry duties. One could just as easily be talking about Browns or Nighthawks, but the point here is that different brands tend to have slightly different clienteles. Wilson's is more focused upon the hard-use crowd than some of the others.
I've owned a few Colts and at least as many Wilsons. My carry gun is a Wilson SDS. Do I still have the drive to commission a custom Colt? Absolutely. If you already have the Colt, and have some cash available for such a project, you could do far worse than just breathing new life into the pistol you already carry and trust.
AC
I think it comes down to features you want. Wilson and Baer build good guns.
IMO, the TRS is a best buy. There's a lot of them out there with a lot of rounds through them.
If you don't want thin grips, you could either get a Custom Carry model (which is basically a TRS w/ regular grips, screws, and bushings), or if you went with a TRS and didn't like the thin grips, have a qualified person remove the bushings and install standard thickness bushings.
I owned a P2 with the 1.5" option and also a TRC. Sold them to pay for other projects. In the time I had the P2, I put well over 1k through it (enough to tell me something, but far from enough to say anything definitive) and found it was very accurate and reliable. This included a 2 day pistol class and some IPSC and IDPA matches.
In comparing it to my other 1911s (Heinie, Yost, NH, etc) I found that the barrel bushing is where it was super tight. The slide to frame fit was snug, but not "tight".
Don't care for bushings that require a wrench. Just my opinion. My NH, Heinie, and Yost do/did not require one. Just saying.
Note as to Baer ambi safeties: I do not like the wide ambis that Baer uses and would opt for a narrower one (the left side is wide, and the right side is narrow - I would get the left side narrowed).
As others have said, you can run a blued gun, but I would pay extra to get it ion-bonded.
good info ssf70 . I know the les baers can come with wide grips with TRP logo as an option :dance3:, and you can add or delete stuff on your build .
Les doesnt do certain things , but Nighthawk will do just about anything you can dream of . The night hawk comes with gun (not owner ) lifetime warranty .
I wouldn't turn down either one. If price is a consideration the Les Baer is a best buy.
I have friends that own Wilsons. I own a Baer, the big thing difference wise to me is the Wilson feels, thinner and softer. I know that sounds wierd but the frontstraps are an obviously different radius between the two. Browns feel identical to Wilson. RRA and Baers feel the same when youre holding them.
Price, I would say a big cost upgrade with the Wilson is as simple as the Warranty and Customer Service. You cant add that kind of support to your customers without added cost.
Right now I own a Brown EE and a Baer TRS. I will own a Wilson next, well after I gather the funds when my Springfield Pro gets here. I personally think those are the 4 1911s to own.
I agree that you won't go wrong choosing either brand. I'v owned a Baer Concept VI for about 15 years, and it's the best 1911 I've shot or owned. The accuracy is outstanding and it gobbles up any kind of ammo I've fed it. As far as Wilson goes, I've handled a few and they were very impressive in terms of fitting and finish. I'm sure they would also be great shooters. :) WB
have handled all the premium 1911's mentioned here- I think they are all very similar in quality/performance, and having said that the Baer seems to be the best value -my baer came to me used about 8 years ago and at the time I paid 1k for it. the shop I frequent currently has used baers for about 13-14.
FWIW, as a range safety officer I rarely see Les Baer 1911's in competition these days. I see plenty of Wilson's. Like I said, FWIW. :)
Ive owned numerous examples of all the semi-custom 1911s. My favorite all time is the Guncrafter Industries No Name. Next I would choose the Les Baer TRS.
http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv239/BlayGlock/TDP%20and%20NN/GCNNBaerTDP007.jpg
LtoR: Guncrafter, Springfield Custom Carry, Wilson CQB, Baer TDP.
http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv239/BlayGlock/L33TCombo.jpg
My first AR. I just picked it up in a trade. Pictured with it is my D&V Custom Springfield Operator
http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv239/BlayGlock/Les%20Baer%20TRS/BaerTRS001-1.jpg
Les Baer TRS.
http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv239/BlayGlock/NHC/NighthawkPredator003.jpg
Nighthawk Predator II for comparison. The Predator is an amazing gun but NHC's Permakote hasnt held up.
Is a Les Baer Thunder Ranch Special much of a step up from a Colt Series 70 which I have been carrying for many years (with night sights and target trigger added)?
If your colt is like most I have owned/shot then yes. A big step up.
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