View Full Version : What kind of accuracy should I be *ahem* shooting for?
masternave
12-05-10, 19:03
I mean, I know the answer is "as accurate as I possibly can," but I want to know what that looks like at 100 yds. If I'm shooting a 16" carbine at 100 yds, what kind of groups should I expect with a RDS? I'm not expecting the bullets to touch like my bolt action 308, but about how tight out of 30 should I be looking for? Thanks.
How slow or fast are you shooting? Are you prone, or standing? How much experience do you have shooting?
I am not as talented nor experienced as many of the people on this forum, but I strive for under 2MOA prone at 100, and 3 MOA standing at 100. Every time I shoot though I get better and better. I have gotten Sub MOA benched with a red dot at 100.
masternave
12-05-10, 19:18
I have only a few years experience shooting. I can make rounds touch with my bolt action at 100 paces, (around 250 ft, never bothered to really measured,) if that gives any indication of my shooting ability. I'm speaking of benched slow fire from an AR. Mostly I'm trying to ascertain how much of what I feel to be inaccuracy is me and how much is my gun. I always have assumed it to be me but after some recent groups with the bolt action I'm beginning to doubt my trusty AR a bit. A little reading tells me that a MOA is an inch at 100 yards... that means I should be able to put them all in 2" group at 100 yards. I guess I'll strive for that. After finals I'll make a little test for myself and my rifle. Thank you very much for your advice.
Eurodriver
12-05-10, 19:20
I shoot *ahem again* for fist sized groups at 50 yards, out to a 12"x12" steel plate at 225 yards with a CompM2.
This is in the standing, keeping the rifle in the shoulder, but taking just enough time to get a proper sight picture before gently squeezing the trigger.
I never shoot paper at 100 yards so I don't know, but I would imagine it'd be bigger than 2" with a 4" dot.
For what its worth, when I used to have an eotech I was shooting 5 shot groups just shy of 2" at 100 yards from the bench.
glockkid88
12-05-10, 19:21
Im new to ar's so I strive to shoot inside of 3" at 100 with an rds from prone. I will be taking a lot of training classes next year to improve on this though!
Whootsinator
12-05-10, 19:21
What kind of ammo are you using? If you're using cheap-o training ammo, XM193, or similar, I'd be happy with 4MOA.
You have gotten sub-MOA groups with an unmagnified RDS. I find that ridiculous. How small is the reticle???? 2 or 4 MOA. That would therefore be impossible to acheive a sub-MOA group.
I can shoot a 2 - 2.5 MOA group from the prone position using irons. With an magnified optic I can shoot sub-MOA all day from a benchrest (Rem 700 PSS). Sub-MOA groups are impossible unless absolutely supported. Involuntary muscle movements make it impossible.
You can expect to shoot 6 MOA standing and 4 MOA from supported prone at 100 yards. That would be from a very competent shooter. Also depends on your eyes and how concentric the dot appears.
An RDS is a combat optic and not made for precision shooting. Go with a magnified optic with a cross-hair reticle for increased precision.
The weekend before last I checked my 100yd zero on 4 carbines shooting Federal bulk pack 55gr FMJ, and Lake City M193. Slow fire off a front bag with a match trigger.
10.5" EOTech 1.25" groups
14.5" Aimpoint T1 1.5" groups
16" Back Up Irons 1.75" groups
18" 14 power scope 0.75" groups
This weekend I was back re-zeroing the 10.5" as I changed the muzzle device and shot a couple of sub MOA groups with the EOTech and Fed 55gr. That SBR is a shooter!!
Cameron
The best I've ever shot prone with a CompM3 (2 MOA dot) using xm193 was about 4 1/2 MOA.
You have gotten sub-MOA groups with an unmagnified RDS. I find that ridiculous. How small is the reticle???? 2 or 4 MOA. That would therefore be impossible to acheive a sub-MOA group.
Actually MOLON did a nice exercise shooting ridiculously small groups with an Aimpoint. The threads title was "Precision Shooting With an Aimpoint: Range Report" I believe he was shooting 10 shot groups less than 1.15" extreme spread.
It really doesn't matter what the optic is it is a test of holding the optic consistently in the same place.
Found it.
Originally Posted By Molon:
Precision Shooting With an Aimpoint: Range Report
First and foremost, the Aimpoint red dot sight is a combat sight. Its primary purpose is for use in situations that require “reflexive shooting” at multiple targets, at close ranges. The Aimpoint excels in this type of shooting because it easily allows you to shoot with both eyes open and to focus on the target while shooting. All of my self-defense AR-15s have Aimpoints mounted on them. However, should the need arise (for example, making a head-shot on an aggressor at 100 yards who has most of his body behind hard cover) the Aimpoint sight is certainly up to the task of making precision shots.
There are those who claim that when using an Aimpoint sight with a four minute of angle dot, that it is not possible to shoot groups that are smaller than four minutes of angle in extreme spread. One such person has gone so far as to claim that groups shot from 100 yards using an Aimpoint with a 4 MOA dot will be “greater than 4 inches. Usually much greater.” As we shall soon see, such statements are completely false.
To determine the level of precision obtainable when using an Aimpoint sight with a 4 MOA dot, I mounted an Aimpoint ML2 with a 4 MOA dot on one of my Krieger barreled AR-15s. This AR-15 is easily capable of producing consistent sub-MOA 10-shot groups at 100 yards when using a high magnification scope. Shooting with the Aimpoint sight was done from a bench-rest at a distance of 100 yards using NRA 200 yard High Power type targets that I scaled-down for 100 yards. (The aiming black is approximately the same width as a human head.) Sighting was done using the whole dot centered on the bullseye. Three 10-shot groups were fired in a row for evaluation.
Zeroing the Aimpoint sight at 100 yards was conducted during a down-pour with 20-25 mph winds. The first two 10-shot groups were also fired under these conditions. The first 10-shot group had an extreme spread of 1.41”.
With another couple clicks of windage and elevation adjustment, the second 10-shot group had all shots going into the X-ring. The extreme spread for this group was 1.19”.
Just as quickly as the down-pour had started, the rain stopped, the winds died down and the sun began shining again. I posted a new and dry target on the 100 yard backer and continued shooting. The third 10-shot group had an extreme spread of 1.14”. The average extreme spread for all three of the 10-shot groups was 1.25”.
Cameron
With a proper target such as a bull that subtends a little larger than the red dot, accuracy can be the same or very close to the potential of the rifle/ammo (and shooter's) capabilities with a magnified optic.
However, a poor target choice that does not allow viewing the outer edges of the target will get you into minute of pie plate range.
As an example - 2" at 100 Yds (even with a 4 MOA dot) is possible given the previously mentioned caveats.
Heartbreaker
12-05-10, 19:52
You have gotten sub-MOA groups with an unmagnified RDS. I find that ridiculous. How small is the reticle???? 2 or 4 MOA. That would therefore be impossible to acheive a sub-MOA group.
I can shoot a 2 - 2.5 MOA group from the prone position using irons. With an magnified optic I can shoot sub-MOA all day from a benchrest (Rem 700 PSS). Sub-MOA groups are impossible unless absolutely supported. Involuntary muscle movements make it impossible.
You can expect to shoot 6 MOA standing and 4 MOA from supported prone at 100 yards. That would be from a very competent shooter. Also depends on your eyes and how concentric the dot appears.
An RDS is a combat optic and not made for precision shooting. Go with a magnified optic with a cross-hair reticle for increased precision.
I've shot sub MOA groups with a 4moa dot, if you have a well defined target (like a black dot on white paper) and the power isn't on too high you can make the target out within the dot. It's situational obviously, but on most days it's not too much of a challenge if your rifle/ammo is capable.
You have gotten sub-MOA groups with an unmagnified RDS. I find that ridiculous. How small is the reticle???? 2 or 4 MOA. That would therefore be impossible to acheive a sub-MOA group.
I can shoot a 2 - 2.5 MOA group from the prone position using irons. With an magnified optic I can shoot sub-MOA all day from a benchrest (Rem 700 PSS). Sub-MOA groups are impossible unless absolutely supported. Involuntary muscle movements make it impossible.
You can expect to shoot 6 MOA standing and 4 MOA from supported prone at 100 yards. That would be from a very competent shooter. Also depends on your eyes and how concentric the dot appears.
An RDS is a combat optic and not made for precision shooting. Go with a magnified optic with a cross-hair reticle for increased precision.
Some interesting reading here on that very subject.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=34995
If you're hitting a tennis ball from prone, softball from kneeling, and basketball from standing, you're golden. From a prone supported position, shooting under 2MOA with good ammo is a very reasonable goal even through an RDS.
Considering what the Aimpoint is really designed for, if you can hit what you're aiming for, start looking at balancing accuracy and timing so see how quickly you can consistently make hits.
One thing that will help when using red dots is a bulls-eye that is slightly larger than your dot, so you can see the bulls-eye around your dot. This will have no bearing on your group size.
Ammunition is a major factor. All guns can be particular about which loads they shoot well.
The following are the average of several 5 shot groups measured with a dial caliper, from a bench at 100 yards. (Every time I shoot from a bench, I record my groups and keep a running record of how various loads perform)
Rock River/Eotech 512
American Eagle 55g FMJ....1.31
Fed GMM 69g BTHP........1.09
LMT/Aimpoint ML2
American Eagle 55g FMJ....2.39
Fed GMM 69g BTHP.........1.80
Fiocchi 62g FMJ..................3.9
I know you asked about groups with RDS but here’s an example of extreme difference in a gun’s ammo preference.
BCM 16" free floated upper with Spikes lower. Weaver 1.5-6 using 6X
American Eagle 55g FMJ....3.6
Fiocchi 62g FMJ..................4.2
Hornady Practice 55g FMJ...1.01
Fed GMM 69g BTHP..........0.69
Hope this helps.
Longhunter
12-06-10, 17:54
I like to shoot a new rifle from a bench to see what it will do or for trying out handloads.
But I believe to many people shoot from a bench to much and neglect being able to shoot free hand, setting on the ground or however.
As far as accuracy goes, I'm happy to be able to hit man size targets up on the hill in the woods in my back yard at 200 yards with iron sights. My eyes are getting old but still work pretty good.
If you are trying to evalulate how accurate you are shooting, you need to know the mechanical limits of the rifle/ammo combination.
I would try to borrow or otherwise use a rifle rest w/ sandbags or lead shot. Fire some five to ten rounds groups and see how it comes out.
Probably the most important is your ammo barrel combination.
There is absoutley no reason you cannot shot ragged holes with an aimpoint.
I was taught MOBG at ranges from point blank out to as far as neccessary to put down the threat...If your trying to punch a bunch of little holes in a piece of paper then I guess as close together as you can get 'em...:sarcastic:
glockkid88
12-06-10, 19:52
To say that it is impossible to shoot sub moa because of the size of the dot is ignorant! The fact that the dot is 2 or 4 or 25 moa does not affect where the rounds land. I am a brand new shooter and if I go prone and take my time I can shoot 3moa with a 2moa rds. That type of shooting is not that hard to accomplish!
To say that it is impossible to shoot sub moa because of the size of the dot is ignorant! The fact that the dot is 2 or 4 or 25 moa does not affect where the rounds land. I am a brand new shooter and if I go prone and take my time I can shoot 3moa with a 2moa rds. That type of shooting is not that hard to accomplish!
How does it not???? You have to be able to assume an identical sight alignment to get a consistent group. We have no way to verify these targets. I give the individuals the benefit of the doubt, but I have my doubts indeed.
Do you assume the center of the dot is the POI??? If you visualize a perfect concentric dot, which is rare with a RDS, than perhaps it is possible. Even a 2 MOA RDS covers too much of the target.
Too many ifs...
If you turn the brightness down???
If you have the right target???
If you shoot from a benchrest???
If you have the right ammo???
There's always going to be IF's, but "IF" you want to see the accuracy potential with the RDS as used, it's possible to shoot groups substantially smaller than the dot size. Is it the most practical - no, but hammonje - it's absolutely possible to line up a rifle on a benchrest, run some match rounds through it, and shoot tight groups regardless of the optic used. The center of the dot could be yards away from the POI, it just needs to be consistent.
Simple mechanical accuracy can be a useful and valuable metric for a rifle, but coming back to it from an angle of actual application, those ifs don't matter nearly as much. Odds are in a carbine with a reflex sight the real goal is to turn the brightness up a bit higher to acquire the dot quickly and be able to engage a target somewhat accurately, but very quickly.
I've never done this type of shooting before so it was interesting to see the results. My normal plinker ammo is PMC and it looks like it's much better than the XM193AF out of this barrel. These were shot off a bench using a Caldwell TackDriver front rest with support hand in the rear. I centered the dot within the bull but will try to use the edge next time.
BCM BFH 16" Middy
Aimpoint Comp M4 2MOA
Geissele SSA
6" Shoot-N-C
Ammo used:
PMC Bronze .223
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/johnson_n/IMG_1236-1.jpg
Federal/Lake City XM193AF
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/johnson_n/IMG_1234-1.jpg
Prvi Partizan .223 Match 75gr
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/johnson_n/IMG_1237.jpg
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/johnson_n/IMG_1238.jpg
Fiocchi Exacta Match w/ 77gr Seirra MatchKing
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/johnson_n/IMG_1253.jpg
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/johnson_n/IMG_1254.jpg
------
Sighting in target. Made minor adjustments at 25yd to get where I wanted.
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/johnson_n/IMG_1228.jpg
PMC Bronze - I did not zero after I sighted it in at 25yd so shots were low and I had one miss.
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/johnson_n/IMG_1223-1.jpg
Federal/Lake City XM193AF
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/johnson_n/IMG_1225.jpg
Prvi Partizan .223 Match 75gr
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/johnson_n/IMG_1226-1.jpg
Fiocchi Exacta Match 77gr Sierra MatchKing
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/johnson_n/IMG_1229.jpg[/QUOTE]
I've never done this type of shooting before so it was interesting to see the results. My normal plinker ammo is PMC and it looks like it's much better than the XM193AF out of this barrel. These were shot off a bench using a Caldwell TackDriver front rest with support hand in the rear. I centered the dot within the bull but will try to use the edge next time.
BCM BFH 16" Middy
Aimpoint Comp M4 2MOA
Geissele SSA
6" Shoot-N-C
Ammo used:
PMC Bronze .223
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/johnson_n/IMG_1236-1.jpg
Federal/Lake City XM193AF
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/johnson_n/IMG_1234-1.jpg
Prvi Partizan .223 Match 75gr
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/johnson_n/IMG_1237.jpg
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/johnson_n/IMG_1238.jpg
Fiocchi Exacta Match w/ 77gr Seirra MatchKing
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/johnson_n/IMG_1253.jpg
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/johnson_n/IMG_1254.jpg
------
Sighting in target. Made minor adjustments at 25yd to get where I wanted.
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/johnson_n/IMG_1228.jpg
PMC Bronze - I did not zero after I sighted it in at 25yd so shots were low and I had one miss.
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/johnson_n/IMG_1223-1.jpg
Federal/Lake City XM193AF
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/johnson_n/IMG_1225.jpg
Prvi Partizan .223 Match 75gr
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/johnson_n/IMG_1226-1.jpg
Fiocchi Exacta Match 77gr Sierra MatchKing
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/johnson_n/IMG_1229.jpg[/QUOTE]
Whats your turn on that barrel?
Has to be 1:7. His best group was the 77 gr Fiocchi.
Nice shooting.
Has to be 1:7. His best group was the 77 gr Fiocchi.
Nice shooting.
Thats what I figured.
How does it not???? You have to be able to assume an identical sight alignment to get a consistent group. We have no way to verify these targets. I give the individuals the benefit of the doubt, but I have my doubts indeed.
Do you assume the center of the dot is the POI??? If you visualize a perfect concentric dot, which is rare with a RDS, than perhaps it is possible. Even a 2 MOA RDS covers too much of the target.
Too many ifs...
If you turn the brightness down???
If you have the right target???
If you shoot from a benchrest???
If you have the right ammo???
Someone please inform this guy. I'm too tired to waste 30 minutes typing up another post explaining stupidly basic skillsets (like aiming) that should be a prerequisite before posting on this forum.
You have gotten sub-MOA groups with an unmagnified RDS. I find that ridiculous. How small is the reticle???? 2 or 4 MOA. That would therefore be impossible to acheive a sub-MOA group.
What's ridiculous is this post, especially since I can tell that you haven't read the information that two other members have cited specifically for you by the nature of all of your subsequent posts, except for the very last one, which is largely unrelated.
There's plenty of wives' tales in the world already without buying into some long-ago halfwit's poor visualization and math skills and keep humping "plus-MOA reticle means plus-MOA groups" leg. It's bullshit, for the reasons cited in the material you been pointed to but haven't bothered to read.
You wanna tell Molon to his face that his work isn't verifiable, when he bends over backwards IOT produce tranparency of work, not to mention all the other folks out there that do the same?
That's a lot of stand-up people that you just called liars, with that statement, and I won't stand for it.
Stop posting in this thread until you have read the cited material and done your own search. There will be an oral quiz tomorrow and a written test on Friday.
AlphaKoncepts
12-22-10, 09:32
Get yourself a leadsled or something similiar and you will really see how much is your inaccuracy and how much is the rifle. IMO the accuracy you should expect depends on the build of the rifle as well as its' intended use. However the build should be based on the intended use so the two are really the same in a perfect world.
The group also would be determined by the manner in which you are shooting obviously once you take it off the lead sled. Ammo matters too, obviously match ammo would hold better groups, but seriously I wouldn't waste the money on match ammo with a 16" carbine at 100 yards (just my personal opinion primarily based on my bank account). What's more important about the ammo though, the ammo weight should be matched to the barrel rate of twist.
Lastly it would also depend on your own personal level of "good enough". Personally for me, if I can hold a 3" 3 shot group at 100 yards while bench shooting using bags or bipod with iron sights on a 16" carbine I am more than happy. For me this would mean I have successfully hit my intended target.
Have you considered an Appleseed shoot?
morbidbattlecry
12-22-10, 17:45
I'm kinda new to shooting to take this with a grain of salt. But I've tried to do what The LAV has his students teach at his carbine coarse. Thats try to keep everything in a 6 inch circle. So i start at 25 and when i can get them in that circle at 25 in every position i go back to 50 and so on and so forth. Remember time is precious. Don't waste it by thinking you need to get sub moa groups at 100 yards from the onset. And when you get all of them in that 6 inches out to 100 or 200. Start over with smaller and smaller circles. Eventually you'll be shooting circles around those guys at the range that only bench shoot with scopes, using only your RDS:laugh:
DDgunslinger
12-22-10, 18:04
How does it not???? You have to be able to assume an identical sight alignment to get a consistent group. We have no way to verify these targets. I give the individuals the benefit of the doubt, but I have my doubts indeed.
Do you assume the center of the dot is the POI??? If you visualize a perfect concentric dot, which is rare with a RDS, than perhaps it is possible. Even a 2 MOA RDS covers too much of the target.
Too many ifs...
If you turn the brightness down???
If you have the right target???
If you shoot from a benchrest???
If you have the right ammo???
hmmm so I guess if I say I can accurately engage 300 meters targets with an unmagnified eotech all day long that would be impossible too cause that's not what the optic was designed for, and I myself would be a liar. Sorry brother, you may wanna do some research before you start talking $hit about peoples shooting abilities and result findings. I know it was stated before, but I'll say it again Molon has plenty of evidence proving all that was said is in fact possible. Anyway, that's just my .02
rubiconbay
12-22-10, 18:14
I am new to shooting AR but in prone position with bipod support I was hitting a 8" steel circle at 300 yds consistently with 55 gr 5.56 ammo,optics are important I used a 3x magnifier with Eotech XPS2-2 red dot......I shoot a SS Noveske 14.5 Afghan I was impressed with how accurate the rifle was!! Lots of fun!!!
I have only a few years experience shooting. I can make rounds touch with my bolt action at 100 paces, (around 250 ft, never bothered to really measured,) if that gives any indication of my shooting ability. I'm speaking of benched slow fire from an AR. Mostly I'm trying to ascertain how much of what I feel to be inaccuracy is me and how much is my gun. I always have assumed it to be me but after some recent groups with the bolt action I'm beginning to doubt my trusty AR a bit. A little reading tells me that a MOA is an inch at 100 yards... that means I should be able to put them all in 2" group at 100 yards. I guess I'll strive for that. After finals I'll make a little test for myself and my rifle. Thank you very much for your advice.
Best advice I can give is based on real world experience on my part. also based on my mistakes of the past and is simple in concept and fairly easy in execution.
4 MOA from a field position. get off the bench entirely. learn to shoot properly. when you get good enough you WILL start to notice ammo and gun limitations, but most shooters are not even that capable.
4 MOA is a practical,and useful accuracy because it include shooter error and platform error. it's significant because it means that if you can shoot at least 4 MOA then you can hit a standing man at 500 yards or a head shot at 200. anything under that should be easier once you can do this level of accuracy.
Rifle by itself should be capable of about 2.5 MOA or less, but that is not the limiting factor... you as the shooter will almost always be that limit.
You have gotten sub-MOA groups with an unmagnified RDS. I find that ridiculous. How small is the reticle???? 2 or 4 MOA. That would therefore be impossible to acheive a sub-MOA group.
[...snip]
An RDS is a combat optic and not made for precision shooting. Go with a magnified optic with a cross-hair reticle for increased precision.
I am a very new shooter. However, the advice of my much more experienced friend reminded me, when we had this exact conversation, that consistency of sight picture is key when you are shooting for groups. To that end, his trick for "precision" shooting (when benched) using a RDS or other non/low-magnified "combat" type optic is to use the edge of the dot for aiming.
In fact... if you read a bit on trajectory of the XM193, you can set up the Improved BattleSight Zero such that the drop out at 100yds (as an example) works itself out to approx 2" of drop... convenient when you have, say, a 2 or 4 MOA dot...
This isn't unlike some of the tricks to using the ACOG chevron reticle to your advantage.
Food for thought anyhow... I'm sure actually pulling this type of precision shooting will require more technique than I've got currently, and that ain't no joke. :sarcastic:
It definitely gives me pause though to what can be overcome with the proper setup and use of the tools at hand.
Comments are welcome though... please enlighten me! :D
variablebinary
12-23-10, 03:26
2 or 3 MOA at 100 meters is plenty good.
2 or 3 MOA at 100 meters is plenty good.
^^ This! Draw a 3 inch circle on your chest/head...would you want to be hit where that circle covers?
I dont really understand all the "MOA" talk. We arent speaking of benchrest match guns. Yes its a measuring system, but to expect sub moa groups out of a semi auto carbine is a bit much. Ya it could/can/has happened, but its not a must have.
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