View Full Version : Update on Colt 6720 Shooting to the Right
Thanks for all your suggestions on my 6720 that shoots 5" to the right @ 25 yards. I took an unused carry handle sight from one of our Colt M4's and tried it today. Unfortunately, the gun is still shooting 4-5" right at 25.
I called Colt and explained the problem. I was told to mail it back on my dime, and that I would have it back by mid March of 2011. Colt must be really busy if it's taking them 3 months to do warranty work.
That's really an unacceptable turnaround. Just over a year ago I had a similar experience and it took about two months just to swap out a BCG, but at least I got them to cover the shipping.
That's absolutely rediculous. I'll cross them off my most recommended list if that is their idea of customer service. With the likes of DD, BCM, etc. that are making comparable rifles for less money there is no sense in putting up with that BS. If they are that busy let them lighten their load a bit.
ghostman1960
12-06-10, 20:39
When I had a problem with an upper BCM had me ship it to them on their dime and they had it back to me within 8 days after I dropped it off at UPS.
They were actually zealous about taking care of me. All of my AR products will be from BCM from now on.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-06-10, 22:04
Colt apparently has a reputation for somewhat shoddy cust. service for their civilian market. I have no experience with them so I cant personally comment, but seing posts like this makes me feel happy that BCM has my back;)
But, I dont want it to seem like I dont like Colt, I think theyre pretty awesome and Ive carried one for quite some time, but its issued.
That's absolutely rediculous. I'll cross them off my most recommended list if that is their idea of customer service. With the likes of DD, BCM, etc. that are making comparable rifles for less money there is no sense in putting up with that BS. If they are that busy let them lighten their load a bit.
I am certain you won't be missed.
When I had a problem with an upper BCM had me ship it to them on their dime and they had it back to me within 8 days after I dropped it off at UPS.
They were actually zealous about taking care of me. All of my AR products will be from BCM from now on.
BCM is the best thing that ever happened to Colt. As BCM parts and rifles are "perfect substitutes" for Colt, BCM fans have to understand that the value of their BCM machines are directly tied to the market value of a Colt. The argument that BCM is just as good as Colt and costs less is an asinine statement. If BCM rifles really are just as good, why don't they command a comparable retail or residual value?
To phrase it simply, your fooling yourself if you believe that the sale of a BCM rifle is a lost sale to Colt.
Colt has spent decades building a well deserved reputation building the best rifles on the market. I don't think anyone here is going to argue that fact. But if you start to ignore the needs of your customers they will go elsewhere. History is laden with companies who have gotten fat, damn, and happy resting on their prior accomplishments only to see their competition catch up and in some cases pass them. I am not saying that is what's happening to Colt, but it's a slippery slope. We do understand we are in the midst of war and the armed forces are going to take a well deserved priority. But several months for a warranty repair is crazy. Hopefully the OP is not an LEO who is going to go without a duty rifle during that time.
I am certain you won't be missed.
BCM is the best thing that ever happened to Colt. As BCM parts and rifles are "perfect substitutes" for Colt, BCM fans have to understand that the value of their BCM machines are directly tied to the market value of a Colt. The argument that BCM is just as good as Colt and costs less is an asinine statement. If BCM rifles really are just as good, why don't they command a comparable retail or residual value?
To phrase it simply, your fooling yourself if you believe that the sale of a BCM rifle is a lost sale to Colt.
Rabid Fanboyish at it's best. The sale of a BCM is a lost sale to Colt........ and Bushmaster......... and RRA.......... and any other AR maker. If you buy a BCM then your not buying one of the others.
ghostman1960
12-07-10, 06:00
I am certain you won't be missed.
BCM is the best thing that ever happened to Colt. As BCM parts and rifles are "perfect substitutes" for Colt, BCM fans have to understand that the value of their BCM machines are directly tied to the market value of a Colt. The argument that BCM is just as good as Colt and costs less is an asinine statement. If BCM rifles really are just as good, why don't they command a comparable retail or residual value?
To phrase it simply, your fooling yourself if you believe that the sale of a BCM rifle is a lost sale to Colt.
Colt costs more because of their name. Yes they make a good product but they are limited in what they offer to civilians. Have you ever heard of a mid length Colt? Plus they are not very enthusiastic about their CS.
If BCM was the best thing that ever happened to Colt, it is because Colt emulated BCM's price point, product variety and customer service ethos. They have done none of that.
Colt may still be the big boy in town but when their government contracts start to run out they will begin to focus on civilian sales again. When that happens they are going to find out companies like BCM have passed them up and left them in the dust when it comes to CS, variety and price.
Rabid Fanboyish at it's best. The sale of a BCM is a lost sale to Colt........ and Bushmaster......... and RRA.......... and any other AR maker. If you buy a BCM then your not buying one of the others.
If you say so... :sarcastic:
FChen17213
12-07-10, 07:27
Clearly there are some diehard Colt fans and BCM fans here. What I don't understand is why people have to bash other people's favorite products to make themselves feel good. I think most of us can agree that both Colt and BCM products are pretty decent to say the least.
I would call them back and bitch. That is completely unacceptable CS for a Company with the reputation of Colt.
Well, like they say: Colt is the standard.
If turn times are days for BCM vs. 3 months for Colt, obviously BCM is falling way short of the standard.;)
gtmtnbiker98
12-07-10, 10:36
You also have to take in to consideration the number of rifles Colt has fielded as compared to BCM and DD. Given the number of rifles sold to both the Military and Federal LE, I can understand the repair taking a bit longer, but certainly not 3-4 months.
Sorry for this bad news, OP.
outrider627
12-07-10, 11:06
This is unacceptable behavior from Colt. OP, you bought this from Clyde Armory right? Have you tried contacting them? Maybe they can help you out.
Plus they are not very enthusiastic about their CS.
They are one of the few manufactures that will waranty service on a Form 1 lower including replacing the whole lower with one of the same serial number.
I'm not at all interested in the 'brand X' is as good as 'brand Y' distractions personally and, to be honest, I don't believe that is the underlying intent of those responses stating that 'brand X' (BCM in this case) customer service response would certainly be far better than 'brand Y' (Colt) as stated in the O.P.
There's no debating the quality of a Colt AR - that reputation is solid. Those responses stating that Colt's response (ship back to Colt on the end users dime and wait 3 months for repair) is unacceptable are spot on. If this is the priority that Colt needs to apply to civilian customers due to military demand then so be it. It will have an impact on civilian sales if this becomes a common customer service response to civilian customers - this much is certain. The O.P.'s experience is enough to steer me away from Colt. Every firearm I own is covered by the manufacturer and the customer service reputation for each of these leaves me certain that any failure would be resolved quickly and at the manufacturers expense (assuming said failure is not due to negligence on my part).
Are the aforementioned firearms, covered by outstanding warranty and customer service, up to the same quality standard as a Colt? I can't say with certainly as I no longer own a Colt. I can say that I have never experienced any kind of failure with any of them and they see regular use, some see hard use. Since they are all capable of providing dependable, reliable service for my intended use I would say that, for me, they're all as good as the Colt firearms I have owned in the past. Given the difference in customer service experience I can't think of a good reason to give Colt my business.
While all of my firearms get used for recreational shooting I consider them to be what they are - weapons, in my case defensive weapons. Any of them might, at some time, be needed to assist in the protection of my beloved family. For this reason I consider it critical that all be in perfect working order and fully capable of functioning as intended at all times. Should one fail I want it it fixed and ready for service as fast as possible. 3 months is not as fast as possible - by the standard set by those manufacturers I trust 3 months is 2 months and 2 weeks too long to wait for a weapon to be restored to working condition and therefore completely unacceptable. This expectation may be deemed unreasonable by some respondents - that's fine by me. It's my expectation - no one else's.
well said, Deaj.
Colt is a big company. And should act like one.:D
Even small busy company does better job then this.
I'm sure you will get your gun back in less than 3 months.
All the warranty work I have sent in has taken about a month.
I would call them back and bitch. That is completely unacceptable CS for a Company with the reputation of Colt.
I tried. But I got the distinct impression they really didn't care. I thought about writing a letter to a higher up, but in my experience, CS agents mirror the sentiments of their supervisors. If they don't care, I'm pretty sure William Keys won't either.
I called Clyde Armory, and was told they would look into it and call me back. That was yesterday, so I'm not holding my breath. It's frustrating, but that's the way it's going to be. I tell myself they are busy making rifles for young boys trying to protect our great nation, and the people of other nations, and in the bigger picture, that's more important than one little rifle protecting a suburb of Denver.
Do you think it would be out of line to suggest to Clyde Armory if they would swap out an upper with me?
I tell myself they are busy making rifles for young boys trying to protect our great nation, and the people of other nations, and in the bigger picture, that's more important than one little rifle protecting a suburb of Denver.
That is true, some of them are making weapons for the military. However, they are also making other weapons, and evidently that includes the defective one that you got.
I've had issues with Colt(dealing with the factory) in the past, and I've had good luck as well. It seems to be hit or miss.
Is it a duty weapon, or a recreational weapon?
RogerinTPA
12-07-10, 20:45
Colt costs more because of their name. Yes they make a good product but they are limited in what they offer to civilians. Have you ever heard of a mid length Colt? Plus they are not very enthusiastic about their CS.
If BCM was the best thing that ever happened to Colt, it is because Colt emulated BCM's price point, product variety and customer service ethos. They have done none of that.
Colt may still be the big boy in town but when their government contracts start to run out they will begin to focus on civilian sales again. When that happens they are going to find out companies like BCM have passed them up and left them in the dust when it comes to CS, variety and price.
Agreed.
Colt has been shitty towards the general population since the last AWB, bowing to the political anti assault gun BS with their "sear block" during those days. They could afford to, since they were sucking off the government tit and still does, until there contract runs out. They are discovering that they are WAY behind the power curve as far as what BCM, DD, and Noveske has to offer. With the ever increasing use of the internet and the advent of the "Chart", the general public is more informed about ARs than they ever have been. They will have to play catch up and adapt, or scale back extremely to compete for the consumer's hard earned dollar these days, or die, once that contract runs out. FYI, I own 2 & 1/2 Colts.
A competing product lost to a competitor, is money lost. Period. It's simple economics. Colt will adapt to compete or fall by the wayside.
It was supposed to be my duty weapon. We have a pool of DPMS and Bushmasters we can check out at the beginning of shift, so I'm not completely defenseless. I recently decided to get my own since these weapons are going on nine years old, and we're starting to see more and more parts failures. I didn't know charging handles could break in two, but DPMS figured out how to do it ;)
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-07-10, 21:30
It was supposed to be my duty weapon. We have a pool of DPMS and Bushmasters we can check out at the beginning of shift, so I'm not completely defenseless. I recently decided to get my own since these weapons are going on nine years old, and we're starting to see more and more parts failures. I didn't know charging handles could break in two, but DPMS figured out how to do it ;)
It sucks to see a CO officer w/out his tool of the trade. If I were back in CO, I'd let you borrow my DD or BCM until you got this sorted out! I hope Colt gets their act together in time to get an officers rifle back in his hands ASAP, but to me its just another example of Colt's shoddy CS.
Scottryan,
do you have some sort of info that you are holding out on us as to why you so vehemently defend Colt's CS even in the face of evidence such as this?
They are discovering that they are WAY behind the power curve as far as what BCM, DD, and Noveske has to offer.
Colt was making CHF barrels before these other 3 companies existed.
Scottryan,
do you have some sort of info that you are holding out on us as to why you so vehemently defend Colt's CS even in the face of evidence such as this?
Evidence?
I can post factory letters testifiying to the work I have had done including the Form 1 lower rebuild.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-07-10, 21:37
Evidence?
I can post factory letters testifiying to the work I have had done including the Form 1 lower rebuild.
Have you ever had a negative experience with their CS? I ask not to villify anyone, but for educations sake.
RogerinTPA
12-07-10, 21:40
Colt was making CHF barrels before these other 3 companies existed.
I know.;)
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-07-10, 21:43
Do you think it would be out of line to suggest to Clyde Armory if they would swap out an upper with me?
To answer your question: Yes, IMO it would be as they sold you a complete rifle. But, if you contacted them and asked for their help/guidance and they in turn made it right, kudos to them. If not, well, not really their problem. Just my opinion of course.
Have you ever had a negative experience with their CS? I ask not to villify anyone, but for educations sake.
No.
And I don't consider having to wait a few months to be a negative experience.
If they flat out refused to service the weapon or correct the problem on the owner's dime, that would be a negative experience.
Colt was making CHF barrels before these other 3 companies existed.
And this has what to do with where they are in the "power curve" now?
And this has what to do with where they are in the "power curve" now?
You would be seeing these barrels on the market if there wasn't a ban on them since they are made in Canada.
When the buffer tube on my 6920 got bent in a car wreck (got rear ended by a drunk at a red light), Colt originally said that there would be a 6-12 week turn around. The actual turn around was 3 business days. It arrived on at Colt on Friday and was back in transit on Wednesday.
I wouldn't get too worked up about the quoted turn around time just yet. I was satisfied with the customer service, nothing exceptional and nothing to complain about.
No.
And I don't consider having to wait a few months to be a negative experience.
If they flat out refused to service the weapon or correct the problem on the owner's dime, that would be a negative experience.
I would say having the owner foot the bill for shipping applies as 'on the owners dime'. The owner has already paid for the rifle, he did his part. Had Colt built a properly functioning rifle in this instance they would have done their part. They haven't - they built a defective rifle. Now they want the owner of that defective rifle to pay more to ship the rifle back to them so that they can fix the rifle whenever they can get around to it. You also appear to be in the minority regarding having to wait a few months for the manufacturer to correct a defect on a new rifle not being a negative experience.
your fooling yourself if you believe that the sale of a BCM rifle is a lost sale to Colt.
"you're" not 'your'
I like Colt firearms, my favourite pistols all say Colt on the side and originally when I was looking for my first quality AR I was set on a Colt 6920.
However when it came time to actually by a new AR my first quality build was a Daniel Defense, then an LMT, then a couple of BCM carbines.
Colt didn't even flicker on the radar simply because of two points, their lack of features and their lack of service. Do they put together a quality AR? Sure, their ARs are basic but well built. However, BCM offers a superior product backed by superior customer service. It makes a new AR and easy choice for the thinking and informed consumer.
Cameron
When the buffer tube on my 6920 got bent in a car wreck (got rear ended by a drunk at a red light), Colt originally said that there would be a 6-12 week turn around. The actual turn around was 3 business days. It arrived on at Colt on Friday and was back in transit on Wednesday.
I wouldn't get too worked up about the quoted turn around time just yet. I was satisfied with the customer service, nothing exceptional and nothing to complain about.
My ONE experience with Colt customer service was the same. I was quoted some ridiculous wait time (months), and had the gun on the way back to me in the same week.
I would just send it in, doubt it will be nearly as long as quoted.
ETA: Post back how long it actually took when you get it back.
You would be seeing these barrels on the market if there wasn't a ban on them since they are made in Canada.
Wow, Colt has been making CHF barrels for years now that we can’t get. I guess I can stop holding my breath and buy a BCM since they are actually available to us.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-08-10, 09:59
"you're" not 'your'
Thanks for the really constructive and on-topic post.:rolleyes:
It sounds like Colt may give customers a liberal estimate on time so as to save face in case it takes longer than normal. If thats the case, he should have it back pretty quick. But, to have a customer ship it on his dime when all he is guilty of is buying their product, that to me is the definition of bad service.
Wow, Colt has been making CHF barrels for years now that we can’t get. I guess I can stop holding my breath and buy a BCM since they are actually available to us.
That is irrelavent who they are sold to.
My response was to DD, BCM, and Noveske making CHF barrels.
Colt clearly has been making CHF longer than these other companies. Colt is not "behind the curve" on this technology as was implied by another poster. You just can't buy it from them due to legal issues.
That is irrelavent who they are sold to.
My response was to DD, BCM, and Noveske making CHF barrels.
Colt clearly has been making CHF longer than these other companies. Colt is not "behind the curve" on this technology as was implied by another poster. You just can't buy it from them due to legal issues.
What YOU are saying is irrelevant. You are the only one talking about Colt's CHF barrels and when they started making them (except me now for arguments sake). When was that specific aspect of Colt brought up (other than by you)? Here is what you quoted initially about CHF barrels.
Agreed.
Colt has been shitty towards the general population since the last AWB, bowing to the political anti assault gun BS with their "sear block" during those days. They could afford to, since they were sucking off the government tit and still does, until there contract runs out. They are discovering that they are WAY behind the power curve as far as what BCM, DD, and Noveske has to offer. With the ever increasing use of the internet and the advent of the "Chart", the general public is more informed about ARs than they ever have been. They will have to play catch up and adapt, or scale back extremely to compete for the consumer's hard earned dollar these days, or die, once that contract runs out. FYI, I own 2 & 1/2 Colts.
A competing product lost to a competitor, is money lost. Period. It's simple economics. Colt will adapt to compete or fall by the wayside.
I think what he was saying there, in terms of "power curve", is that when Colt's government contracts run out they will not be #1 sales (nothing about what barrels they make). There are many companies making a product that informed buyers see as >= Colt. If Colt doesnt appease these buyers, they will be losing a ton of business to the companies that CARE about the people buying from them.
I never knew that making a product (CHF barrels) long before someone else automatically meant that the company would never fall behind the competition (or the "power curve").
My ONE experience with Colt customer service was the same. I was quoted some ridiculous wait time (months), and had the gun on the way back to me in the same week.
I would just send it in, doubt it will be nearly as long as quoted.
ETA: Post back how long it actually took when you get it back.
Thank you, I appreciate this feedback. This makes me feel much better about their turn around time. I'm off Friday and will take it to FedEx then. I'll let you guys know when it's back.
That is irrelavent who they are sold to.
My response was to DD, BCM, and Noveske making CHF barrels.
Colt clearly has been making CHF longer than these other companies. Colt is not "behind the curve" on this technology as was implied by another poster. You just can't buy it from them due to legal issues.
I don't believe that the implication was that Colt builds or offers a sub-standard product, or that they're green behind the ears in terms of their experience building durable, accurate weapons employing superior materials, methods, technologies, etc. I think the implication was that Colt is behind the power curve in terms of their ability to compete for civilian sales, their ability to provide customer service to civilian customers comparable to those companies building comparable weapons for civilian customers. Colt is definitely behind the curve in these areas - you're just kidding yourself if you believe otherwise. It may not matter much to Colt given their government contracts. The point isn't necessarily whether or not it matters to Colt. The point is that that it does matter to consumers. You are not consumers (plural) - you are consumer (singular). If sub-standard service, limited product availability, lack of expressed interest in resolving QC hiccups quickly, and lack of expressed priority are not things that matter to you then you may well be Colt's target civilian consumer.
I just read a PM I received from a supervisor at Colt. I can tell you I'm not the least bit worried about their commitment to their customers. Colt will make it right, and I think it's great they monitor sites like this to make sure they are staying in touch with their customer base.
RogerinTPA
12-08-10, 20:26
I never mentioned CHF barrels. What I meant was all of the innovative and desirable features those companies offer, over Colt.
Example, their many variations of the AR from10.5 to 20 inch uppers. A selection of premium parts and features (BCGs, Bolts, Rails, sights, RDSs, flared mag wells, and yes Cold hammer forged barrels, recce's, SPRs). It matters not what a company makes if it isn't available to the general public.
I am not slamming Colt since I do own their products, just that they are behind in the AR race and will be hard pressed to compete with the likes of DD, BCM, Noveske, Centurion....they are all one stop shops, and you can have an AR, in what ever configuration is available. With outstanding customer service to boot. Colt, in it's present state, not so much.
will be hard pressed to compete with the likes of DD, BCM, Noveske, Centurion....they are all one stop shops, and you can have an AR, in what ever configuration is available. With outstanding customer service to boot. Colt, in it's present state, not so much.
No matter how you try to rationalize this, these guns when broken down to the base gun are not better than Colt. They do not have the quality control in place for it and not all the small parts are the same spec. They are very close but not equal.
As far as package deals, I don't like one stop shops. I don't buy package deals.
CHF barrels are a nice to have for an assault rifle, not mandatory.
I'd rather have a full milspec base gun with a button rifled barrel than an aftermarket gun with a CHF barrel.
RogerinTPA
12-08-10, 20:54
I'm not rationalizing at all. It's a matter of fact, seen through a very clear lens. You're just missing my point, refusing to see the forest for the trees, and that's OK, really. I'm not getting worked up over a difference of opinion. It just happens to be mine. ;)
I apologize to the OP for HI Jacking his thread.
No matter how you try to rationalize this, these guns when broken down to the base gun are not better than Colt. They do not have the quality control in place for it and not all the small parts are the same spec. They are very close but not equal.
As far as package deals, I don't like one stop shops. I don't buy package deals.
CHF barrels are a nice to have for an assault rifle, not mandatory.
I'd rather have a full milspec base gun with a button rifled barrel than an aftermarket gun with a CHF barrel.
Grumpy MSG
12-08-10, 21:19
No matter how you try to rationalize this, these guns when broken down to the base gun are not better than Colt. They do not have the quality control in place for it and not all the small parts are the same spec. They are very close but not equal.
As far as package deals, I don't like one stop shops. I don't buy package deals.
CHF barrels are a nice to have for an assault rifle, not mandatory.
I'd rather have a full milspec base gun with a button rifled barrel than an aftermarket gun with a CHF barrel.
Did you by chance work for General Motors in the '70s?:sarcastic: when their cars would never be surpassed by the likes of Toyota, Nissan and Honda?:sarcastic: Colt is one contract away from being desperate. If they ever loose the single source M4 government contract, they will need life support. Maybe then, they will care about customer service. FN in South Carolina has proven they can build a rifle just as good as Colt and does it for a better price. Who had most of the later M16A2 and M16A4 contracts?
Did you by chance work for General Motors in the '70s?:sarcastic: when their cars would never be surpassed by the likes of Toyota, Nissan and Honda?:sarcastic: Colt is one contract away from being desperate. If they ever loose the single source M4 government contract, they will need life support. Maybe then, they will care about customer service. FN in South Carolina has proven they can build a rifle just as good as Colt and does it for a better price. Who had most of the later M16A2 and M16A4 contracts?
=================
It ain't that bad. Colt could always subcontract out to RRA since they've got that illustrious DEA contract... ;)
Or Colt could make a limited edition model stamped "For Civilian Use Only", ...you know to try and make consumers "think" that Colt actually cares about them.
Just a thought...
.
I just read a PM I received from a supervisor at Colt. I can tell you I'm not the least bit worried about their commitment to their customers. Colt will make it right, and I think it's great they monitor sites like this to make sure they are staying in touch with their customer base.
I love how the people arguing that Colt doesn't care about its customers totally ignore posts like this and the two above mentioning the extremely short turn around times despite the long quoted time...
I love how the people arguing that Colt doesn't care about its customers totally ignore posts like this and the two above mentioning the extremely short turn around times despite the long quoted time...
I love how the people arguing that Colt does care about its customers totally ignore the two posts below mentioning the extremely long quoted time... and the "feeling" the OP got over the phone.
.....
I called Colt and explained the problem. I was told to mail it back on my dime, and that I would have it back by mid March of 2011. ....
.... But I got the distinct impression they (Colt) really didn't care. I thought about writing a letter to a higher up, but in my experience, CS agents mirror the sentiments of their supervisors. ....
No matter how you try to rationalize this, these guns when broken down to the base gun are not better than Colt. They do not have the quality control in place for it and not all the small parts are the same spec. They are very close but not equal.
As far as package deals, I don't like one stop shops. I don't buy package deals.
CHF barrels are a nice to have for an assault rifle, not mandatory.
I'd rather have a full milspec base gun with a button rifled barrel than an aftermarket gun with a CHF barrel.
These are the quality control measures that produced a new rifle that shoots 5" to the right? Yes, that seems a tough lead to follow.
I sense some blind brand loyalty on your part. Again - there's no disputing that Colt builds a quality, durable weapon but you're just kidding yourself if you believe that Colt stands peerless in their quality control, or that the quality standards employed by the likes of DD and BCM result in a lower quality, less durable/reliable weapon than those produced by Colt. Perhaps this was true for Colt in the past but no longer.
We're not going to see eye to eye on this. I'll just agree to disagree and move along.
To the OP - I'm glad to see there is reason to expect a better turnaround time than Colt quoted you. On principal I personally feel that Colt should be picking up the tab for shipping but what matters most, of course, is that your rifle be made to work as intended and I hope this happens quickly for you. Sorry for taking the discussion off track.
Did you by chance work for General Motors in the '70s?:sarcastic: when their cars would never be surpassed by the likes of Toyota, Nissan and Honda?:sarcastic: Colt is one contract away from being desperate. If they ever loose the single source M4 government contract, they will need life support. Maybe then, they will care about customer service. FN in South Carolina has proven they can build a rifle just as good as Colt and does it for a better price. Who had most of the later M16A2 and M16A4 contracts?
What about the contracts with over 80 other countries worldwide? You don't think that would keep them afloat, eh? :rolleyes:
I just read this entire thread and all I can say is .... WOW! So much angst! I would have to assume that there are not too many people in this thread that have ever stood behind the counter for very long or at all. It is common practice to under promise and over deliver ,or it was. The repair shop says it will take 2 weeks to fix your TV and they call you back in 3 days and tell you its done. They are now TV repair gods in your eyes and you recommend them to all your friends. We as consumers used to accept what the repair guy said and took him at his word. Then somehow the mantra of "exceed the customers expectations" started in the retail world. But retailers forgot that they were supposed to be the ones to set those expectations. Now everyones expectations are so high that they are damn near impossible to exceed. Colt is simply playing by the old rules where they set the expectation so as to make it easy to exceed.
Vince
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-08-10, 23:55
I just read this entire thread and all I can say is .... WOW! So much angst! I would have to assume that there are not too many people in this thread that have ever stood behind the counter for very long or at all. It is common practice to under promise and over deliver ,or it was. The repair shop says it will take 2 weeks to fix your TV and they call you back in 3 days and tell you its done. They are now TV repair gods in your eyes and you recommend them to all your friends. We as consumers used to accept what the repair guy said and took him at his word. Then somehow the mantra of "exceed the customers expectations" started in the retail world. But retailers forgot that they were supposed to be the ones to set those expectations. Now everyones expectations are so high that they are damn near impossible to exceed. Colt is simply playing by the old rules where they set the expectation so as to make it easy to exceed.
Vince
If this were my patrol rifle, and someone told me it would take 3 months to get it back in the game, Id buy a new rifle. Some people dont have time for gimmicks and ploys.
I've been reading this thread all the way, and laughing. I believe Colt makes a good basic rifle, nothing more, nothing less. I don't own a Colt currently. I put my money towards other manufacturers. As a department armorer I get to work on many AR's. We currently have RRA, Bushmaster, and Colts in inventory.
While installing rails over the last month I noticed 2 items of interst that the average joe shooter would not see on 2 seperate Colts. The first had absolutely no lube/anti sieze on the barrel. This barrel had never been pulled since the rifle was purchased. On the second, when I removed the gas tube I was able to spin the barrel nut freely by hand, no wrench required. So much for the perfect rifle.
I also think the the constant antagonistic approach to Colts rifles demonstrated by a couple of members here actually hurts their case. If a new shooter decides to educate himself and reads a few threads with the pretentious fan boys chiming in, I'll bet the new shooter would steer clear and buy something else. They are not helping their cause.
These are the quality control measures that produced a new rifle that shoots 5" to the right? Yes, that seems a tough lead to follow.
I sense some blind brand loyalty on your part. Again - there's no disputing that Colt builds a quality, durable weapon but you're just kidding yourself if you believe that Colt stands peerless in their quality control, or that the quality standards employed by the likes of DD and BCM result in a lower quality, less durable/reliable weapon than those produced by Colt. Perhaps this was true for Colt in the past but no longer.
I'm a quality manager for a fortune 500 company. I manage every day the same quality systems Colt has in place which other companies do not.
Nobody ever said any company is perfect.
What about the contracts with over 80 other countries worldwide? You don't think that would keep them afloat, eh? :rolleyes:
No kidding. I love how people seem to ignore this fact or don't even know about it.
I also think the the constant antagonistic approach to Colts rifles demonstrated by a couple of members here actually hurts their case. If a new shooter decides to educate himself and reads a few threads with the pretentious fan boys chiming in, I'll bet the new shooter would steer clear and buy something else. They are not helping their cause.
No, what you are missing is the senior most gunmen on this website tell you one thing and no matter how much you don't want to believe it, you make as many excuses otherwise.
CHF and midlength gas systems are not manditory as the group think on the website would make you believe.
Rails and other accessories coming on package deals do not make the gun any more 'quality' than any other gun.
I don't like package deals. They are for inexperience people who don't know how to work on or troubleshoot their own gear and feed into the bubba crowd. They can just buy something and think they are equal with more experienced people.
tfltackdriver
12-09-10, 10:48
Colt apparently has a reputation for somewhat shoddy cust. service for their civilian market. I have no experience with them so I cant personally comment
To steer back on topic if anyone is interested in my experience...
When you call, you have to INSIST on them sending you a tag. If the firearm is relatively new, they'll usually give it up without much of a fight. Otherwise, you're going to hear about when your firearm was manufactured and how they can't be responsible for what happens to it after it leaves Hartford, etc. This is all baloney. Your best bet is to call them as soon as you notice a problem rather than trying to monkey with it yourself if you ever plan on sending it back to West Hartford.
My experience the first time was about a one month turnaround time. From others I know (in real life, not on the Internets), this is typical. Unfortunately, my experience the first time was that they sent the product back in worse shape than it was to begin with.
At this point, I was able to get in touch with a shop manager named Brent who made sure the call tag came back to me ASAP to get it shipped back to them on their dime and it was back to me in less than 14 days. And let me tell you, it still shoots like crap, but the workmanship is beautiful. :sarcastic: It just needs some trigger work -- it's in spec, but the machining really is spectacular.
I also have Gen. Keys' home address if you want it.
JahJahwarrior
12-09-10, 11:18
And I don't consider having to wait a few months to be a negative experience.
.
That's ridiculous. You have no problem with a company producing a malfunctioning product, and leaving a police officer stuck using inferior weapons upon which his life depends for several months?
Lets look at this from a purely financial standpoint. Should Colt pay interest on the value of the rifle? Assuming 10% could be made in some form of investment, that the rifle cost $1500, and that Colt keeps it for 3 months, if the man had just waited those three months with that money invested in that investment, he could have $38 more. That's enough for two pmags or 100 rounds of ammo. Instead, he gets nothing, or forfeits $38, and has to pay shipping on top of that. You have no issues with this?
I know I'm new here, and new to AR's, but I'm not new to low quality customer service, and this seems to me like a prime example. If Colt ends up turning it around fast, and only supply a long turn around time in an effort to exceed expectations, then perhaps their customer service is actually great. Time will tell. They might also have done great work for others in the past, but it seems to me they could do better for this customer.
That's ridiculous. You have no problem with a company producing a malfunctioning product, and leaving a police officer stuck using inferior weapons upon which his life depends for several months?
It is not Colt's fault his department chose to buy junky DPMS and Bushmasters, instead of Colts in the first place.
The PD department is to blame, not Colt.
I know I'm new here, and new to AR's,
Well?
This goes back to one of my other points.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-09-10, 12:38
It is not Colt's fault his department chose to buy junky DPMS and Bushmasters, instead of Colts in the first place.
The PD department is to blame, not Colt.
Well?
This goes back to one of my other points.
Rabid fanboyism is alive and well here. Dont worry about this arguement boys, scottryan has proven that reason and logic clearly dont matter to him. Scottryan, I think youve done a great job of turning people OFF of Colt. But, there's no reason to fight over this, so, a beer to you Scott if we ever run in to each other. Im gonna go ahead and bow out of this one.
JahJahwarrior
12-09-10, 12:42
So it is the police department's fault that Colt produced a defective gun, and that Colt is suggesting they will take more than a few weeks to fix it? I fail to see that logic.
You seem to have no comment about my logical arguments regarding the time value of money and instead insult my post count. Classy. :)
thopkins22
12-09-10, 13:02
I don't like package deals. They are for inexperience people who don't know how to work on or troubleshoot their own gear and feed into the bubba crowd. They can just buy something and think they are equal with more experienced people.
And no experienced person could possibly look at a package deal and decide that was how he would choose to set up his rifle had he started from scratch anyway?
When you say that CHF/cut rifling/whatever are nice things but certainly not mandatory on a rifle that will be used hard, you are 100% correct. But at what point do some of the QC things we are led to believe that Colt does better than anyone else become nice things but not mandatory?
If I know(or trust;)) that BCM/DD/whomever test the important parts with proper rejection criteria, is it stupid/fuddish/inexperienced to decide that QC/QA procedure X that apparently only Colt is privy to, is nice but not mandatory?
I'd also be curious to know how many of those 80 contracts are funded by the US government.
Don't mistake my post, I doubt that anyone has ever made a mistake by purchasing a Colt. I don't think it's true though, to imply(as you have,) that anyone who did not buy a Colt did in fact make a mistake.
Suwannee Tim
12-09-10, 14:04
For no reason other than to troll scotty up:D: A couple of weeks ago I hauled my first AR, an HBAR Colt out of the back of the safe and took it to the range to see if it still shoots. Still does! But, dang, I didn't remember the trigger being that heavy, and creepy and craggy too! Sheesh! No wonder them troops do all that PT! Gotta keep that trigger finger toned up!
For comparison, my Kel Tec RFB was a jammamatic almost out of the box. I sent it back at their expense. Shipped on a Monday morning, UPS put it back in my hands Thursday afternoon. Ain't a jammamatic any more. And the trigger is pretty sweet too.:D
It is not Colt's fault his department chose to buy junky DPMS and Bushmasters, instead of Colts in the first place.
The PD department is to blame, not Colt.
Well?
This goes back to one of my other points.
I thought there were some bad fanboys in the computer world but you sir take the cake. Your blaming his department for issuing subpar rifles when that has nothing to do with the situation. My dept doesn't issue rifles at all. So if I was in his shoes it's my depts fault? Unfortunately not every dept out there can afford to issue all their officers rifles. Maybe that's Colts fault. They should sell to rifles to underfunded depts at cost since they are making so much money off the govts teet. See it's all Colts fault to start with. (yes I'm being sarcastic, pick at my post count all you want)
Don't mistake my post, I doubt that anyone has ever made a mistake by purchasing a Colt. I don't think it's true though, to imply(as you have,) that anyone who did not buy a Colt did in fact make a mistake.
I have never implied such a thing.
I own other brands than Colt.
No, what you are missing is the senior most gunmen on this website tell you one thing and no matter how much you don't want to believe it, you make as many excuses otherwise.
CHF and midlength gas systems are not manditory as the group think on the website would make you believe.
Rails and other accessories coming on package deals do not make the gun any more 'quality' than any other gun.
I don't like package deals. They are for inexperience people who don't know how to work on or troubleshoot their own gear and feed into the bubba crowd. They can just buy something and think they are equal with more experienced people.
Scott, there's no reason to make it personal. I was just making an observation. You make assumptions. Where did I make an excuse for anything? I relayed to you my experience with a loose Colt barrel nut. I am always willing to learn and listen to the collective knowledge. What exactly are the senior most gunmen? My experience pales compared to some but I have carried these things on duty for almost 20 years, hauled 1 or 2 around Iraq for a year, have attended 3 armorer schools, build them both as a hobby and maintain the departments AR's.
I own 2 factory built rifles, a Noveske and a Knights simply because I prefer my own builds. My others are all parts guns, with the parts being from DD, LMT, BCM, Troy, Giesselle, Larue, Magpul, and on and on. I own 3 different gas system lengths, and 2 of 6 barrels are CHF. I won't pay extra for CHF as I have never shot an AR barrel out.
As I prefer my own builds I shoot my them a lot. Until I put 2000 rounds through a build or new rifle it's not totally trustworthy in my book. I routinely take high round count classes and run them hard.
How can you imply because someone disagrees with you that they are inexperienced? Some of the most AR savvy shooters I know have no desire to build them, they don't care. They prefer to buy package deals the same way some buy tricked out new vehicles vs. those that can't wait to put their fingerprints all over them.
There's no reason to be so dogmatic about this.
Suwannee Tim
12-10-10, 05:44
Never love something that can't love you back.
RogerinTPA
12-10-10, 10:26
Never love something that can't love you back.
Classic!;)
Colt has a well-deserved reputation for making a superior product. They also deserve their bad reputation for poor civilian customer service.
Their corporate philosophy is sound: sustainable profitability.
Unfortunately, they also recognize that they could maintain corporate profitability even if civilian firearm ownership ceases to exist. Hence, civilian customer service is, and has always been, very poor.
Hence, civilian customer service is, and has always been, very poor.
And what proof do you have to support this besides hearsay?
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-10-10, 11:54
And what proof do you have to support this besides hearsay?
Hearsay determines people's opinions. Therefore, when the general consensus of the shooting community is that Colt's CS is poor, most of us dont need proof. If 20 people tell me that brand x has bad CS, I wont buy brand x. I find it almost disgusting that you defend, insult, and grab at straws here.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-10-10, 11:54
Colt has a well-deserved reputation for making a superior product. They also deserve their bad reputation for poor civilian customer service.
Their corporate philosophy is sound: sustainable profitability.
Unfortunately, they also recognize that they could maintain corporate profitability even if civilian firearm ownership ceases to exist. Hence, civilian customer service is, and has always been, very poor.
Very well thought out post and very true!
.
Just wondering...
Does anyone else think with Colt stamping
"For Law Enforcement and Military Use Only" on the side of every AR they sell to the public that this is a "clue" to Colt's attitude toward civilian sales?
Or is it just me?
.
is it just me or...
http://policelink.monster.com/nfs/policelink/photos/0238/1129/thread_direction_max600.gif?1269532779
:rolleyes:
Suwannee Tim
12-10-10, 17:54
And what proof do you have to support this besides hearsay?
What kind of proof do you need? If Clark Howard said Colt's CS sux would that constitute proof? Or do we need a statement from Colt to that effect? Personally, if someone makes clear through their attitude that they don't want my business, I commodiate them.
thopkins22
12-10-10, 22:08
I have never implied such a thing.
I own other brands than Colt.
I apologize, I misinterpreted some of your posts.
outrider627
12-10-10, 22:15
is it just me or...
http://policelink.monster.com/nfs/policelink/photos/0238/1129/thread_direction_max600.gif?1269532779
:rolleyes:
Definitely. Fanboys swarmed this thread like flies on shit. I'm surprised this thread hasn't been locked.
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