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Hootiewho
08-11-07, 20:45
Do you guys think that putting velcro staps on tactical gear is that great of an idea? I am not LE/Mil, just an average joe that has spent most of my spare time hunting. From hunting, I learned a long time ago, that anything with velcro on it needs to go. If you are in the woods trying to be quiet and have to get something out of your vest, you open the pocket and rrriiiippp. Any chance you had at a deer or coyote is gone because the noise is unmistakenable and travels quite a ways, especially on a cold morning. This can be bad in a tactical situation and the rip of the velcro could be just as bad as the cling from a Garand clip, letting the bad guy know, hey I am reloading right now. Why is there so much gear made with velcro instead of snaps or buckle's? Do any of you feel that velcro could give away your position? Better yet, say if you were sneaking up to serve a warrent and someone's magazine cover snag's and rips open. Would a snap or buckle not be better?

Rmplstlskn
08-12-07, 20:58
With gunfire going on, and you just sent off 28/30 little packages of leaded love, hopefully with 28/30 badguys in a dirt nap, I really doubt the rip of velcro will matter to anyone...

The people who make this stuff are not stupid...

Rmpl

Alpha Sierra
08-12-07, 22:14
I'm sure there are some military situations where velcro would be a bad idea. Say, snipers on a stalk. For general infantry use, I don't see the rip noise as an issue.

TimW
08-13-07, 12:04
IMO it depends on where the Velcro is.

If an ammo pouch, used for ammo, then no big deal. If you have to dip into that pouch for more ammo, then any need for noise discipline is the least of your concerns.

On GP and other pouches, there is a definite argument against it, especially for pouches which will be accessed frequently. Some Velcro closures, such as a "map pocket" on chest rigs, are Velcro most likely for the ease-of-production and cost issues. Zippers in those areas are possible, but add to the cost and give only marginal utility, IMO.

ST911
08-13-07, 13:03
How to Sell Things to Cops 101:

Paint it black.
Call it "Tactical."
Charge 10% more if it includes velcro.

Double Naught Spy
08-27-07, 21:09
Scott O'Grady, the pilot shot down over Bosnia, has spoken about the velcro problem several times. Velcro on his flight suit made it very difficult for him to access gear in his pockets quietly and he spent considerable time hiding in close proximity to the enemy. He mentioned taking something like 5 minutes just to open one pocket because he had to go very slowly to keep the velcro ripping sound down to a minimum. In fact, that was one of his number one complaints about his gear and its effect on his survival. Velcro simply does not go hand in hand with being quick and quiet.

SGTMAJ
08-28-07, 11:28
depends upon your situation O Grady was doing his E&E.. He was the hunted and any sound or movement could have given his position away. Being the hunter it should not be an issue.

Double Naught Spy
08-28-07, 11:34
Yes, Scott O'Grady was doing escape and evasion and by golly his velcro gear was poorly suited for that task. As a pilot, the velcro gear seemed like a fine idea because he was, a hunter of sorts, no? So who says you will aways be the hunter? O'Grady learned the hard way what it meant to not be the hunter.

Additionally, sometimes it is definitely not beneficial to be a noisy hunter.

Rarely do people have a problem making enough noise to be heard. The problem is to be able to do your required tasks without making a lot of noise. In that regard, velcro sucks. If you have a need to be quiet and quick, velcro is not your friend.

KevinB
08-28-07, 13:05
Its a trade off.

Snaps make noise - buttons are sometime hard to close.

I dont give Scott O'Grady's comments much weight - he's an AF Pilot (1) and secondly several NATO patrol drove and fly right over him and he hid since he did not seem to know the Brits are on our side too.

People get too caught up on the Ninja mystique -- if you stalking or setting up for sentry removal - you've probably dumped the 100lbs of gear with the velcro on it somewhere - cause you just can't move quietly in armor and gear.

Harv
08-28-07, 13:33
KevinB


People get too caught up on the Ninja mystique -- if you stalking or setting up for sentry removal - you've probably dumped the 100lbs of gear with the velcro on it somewhere - cause you just can't move quietly in armor and gear.


There's you answer.....

HootieWho.. don't watch so much TV.... That Garand Clip/Reloading story is old.... (With no merit what so ever)...

Hunting deer is one thing... To close with and destroy your enemy using shock, mobility and firepower is something totaly else

Once the Poo hits the fan... the last thing anyone will here is the sound of Velcro.....;)

Now I do believe you can go a little overboard with Velcro (like the New ACU Uniform) but if kept to a minimum.. velcro is fine.

Hootiewho
08-28-07, 14:27
I don't watch a lot of tv, I read. I was only asking the opinions of others because I shy away from velcro due to past issues/experience hunting. I know that the conflict in the middle east is a different situation, but I can see where in a situation like Vietnam where you are fighting an enemy that is intune to natural noises in their enviroment, that velco on battle gear would be a dead give away, especially to an enemy that could be hidden merely yards away. We (USA and others; appreciate your help KevinB) are fighting in an urban area that background noise could hide the rip of velcro, but should we (USA) have to fight in a wooded or jungle enviroment again it would make more sense to me to have buckles on gear instead of velcro. Take any of your riggers belts, you are in the woods trying to be quiet; then you have to take a sh*t, then rip goes the belt making all sorts of noise. You can be quiet with snap buckels, but not with velcro; unless you slowly slide your hand between the hook and loops, and that still makes noise. I am not trying to bring up some super ninja silence subject, just noise disipline and woodcraft.

Pat_Rogers
08-28-07, 15:08
Hootiewho- There has been a myth of the ejected M1 clip being a clue to hordes of (insert whatever bad guy you want here), lurking close by as a signal to attack for ages.
If you have proof of this, i'd sure like to hear about it.
I have been in a few firefights that lasted from a few minutes to a few days. Doubtful that the noise of that clip sailing into next week would have been discernible. Of course movies, vid games and the errornet have made myths real.....

If i have to launch a democrat, and the enemy is that close or the tac sit so bad that the noise of my riggers belt opening would alert someone, i have no business dropping my trousers for any reason. Can't hold it? Then let 'er rip and join the club.

DoubleNaught- I have worn flight suits for a fair portion of my life. All of the pockets on the CWU 27P have zippers. The only Velcro that i ever saw was a rigger added flap over the pen pocket on the shoulder.
He may have been talking about his survival vest- but most of those pockets are zippered as well.
I don't know which vest he was wearing, and many are rigger mod'd for use by the pilots performing their primary mission.
Did this come out of his book?

I don't want velcro on my frag pouches or Claymore pocket, as they are initiating. Mag pockets. I already made a lot of noise to cause me to get a new mag in the first place.

Don't make mountains outta' molehills here. :D

Hootiewho
08-28-07, 15:18
I only mentioned the M1 clip because of what my grandfather told me about his 4 years in WWII, how the Germans would recognize the sound of the clip and know that a soldier was out of ammo. He said that it got so that they could take an emply clip and toss it on hard ground and sometimes the Germans would take this for someone running out of ammo, raise their head up to ready for a shot, then they (GI's) would already be aiming and shoot. Just comparing an obvious noise of the clip of the M1 to the noise of velcro.

I agree this is making a mountain out of a mole hill, and I guess my point to begin with was that velcro shouldn't be on things that you need to use while you are trying to be quiet, like map covers, some pockets, and some gear. I will shut up now, thanks for the input guys.

Pat_Rogers
08-28-07, 16:10
I am not doubting your Grandfather, but i can remember tales told to me by my family from WW2 and Korea, and i had difficulty in reconciling that when compared to my experiences. I did ask some of those fine men about this clip thing a long time ago, and they all scoffed at it. These were infantrymen, Parachute Infantry and Marines.
Depending where your Grandfather served, what his job was, what units etc, experience could differ drastically from others.
Not all combat involves a single American proned out in front of Germans firing occasional rounds in an environment where that sound could be heard. No other GI's around? No supporting fire?
I do know that if i had a troop that would be throwing down empty clips instead of shooting, we would have some serious discussions about his continuing to be an earthly oxygen consumer.

Any comments about this alleged tactic are anecdotal. I've yet to see it in print in a unit history or anything other then a Sgt Rock comic book.
Apparently, this happened only in Europe, because i can't find any reference to it someplace else.
From my perspective, i'll file it in the urban legend file.

Hootiewho
08-28-07, 18:57
His discharge papers say Northern France, Ardennes, Rhineland, Central Europe; 3rd ARMY.

I imagine a lot of things crazy things happened (slinging empty clips) and Germans were killed by any mean possible.

Double Naught Spy
08-28-07, 19:08
Pat_Rogers, sorry but I didn't read any books by Scott O'Grady, just saw interviews with him on TV. Generally speaking, I don't care for his religion-infused banter.

Here is apparently a foreign translation of one of those sorts of interviews, translated back into English where O'Grady mentions how long it took him to open velcro pockets....
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://www.elgrancapitan.org/foro/mision-de-rescate-vt3947.html&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=2&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%2522scott%2Bo%2527grady%2522%2Bvelcro%26start%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN%26as_qdr%3Dall

Pat_Rogers
08-28-07, 19:38
Yup Hootie, that was 11 months of hard fighting. Did the papers say 3rd Army? If so, that would mean he was assigned to HQ.
Ellen's Dad was in 90ID and that is how his discharge papers read. He had battle stars for all except Ardennes, as he was in UK for his 1st Purple Heart and 1st Bronze Star. He was shot twice and bayoneted once, the last time on 01may45. Discharged as a Major. Pretty hard guy.
Enlisted as a Pvt in NG in 1940, battlefield commission in Aleutians, then in Europe for the rest.
Sad thing is when he died, Army denied him honors because his widow couldn't produce his DD214.
I asked a USMC 1stSgt for a Hus, and he brought a detail down and sent a Warrior off as he deserved.

I agree that strange things happen, but that has been a favorite of certain crowds, and i am not going to believe it unless i can see it in a period AAR, lessons learned etc.
Sorry.

Double naught- yeah, he was more then a scared bunny. He was in way over his head, and i believe little of what he said.

Hootiewho
08-28-07, 21:10
Pat, I apologize, I thought it was 3rd Army, but it was 10th Armored Division. I remembered seeing 3rd Army, but it went back and looked and it was on some other paper work that I had in with his discharge papers; localations were the same. I remembered them correctly. I know he was at the Buldge; I remember him talking about how bad the conditions were when they were trying to get there throught the snow. Sorry about the problem with military honors for your family, there were a lot of men who fought in our wars that do not get the proper burial they deserve.

Pat_Rogers
08-28-07, 21:24
Roger, i thought that it was strange. 10th Armored fought from Sept through the end, and did see service at Ardennes. Very cool!

As to honors. My service rendered them, and not his, but for the family it was a very good thing.
It was a generation very different from now.

Gunfixr
08-29-07, 12:47
Not trying to hijack, I'll just say this and shut up. My wife's father died almost a year ago exactly, and he served in WWII. The Army sent a group and they did the 21 gun salute and presented the folded Flag all while the bagpipes played. This was the first time I had seen this event in person. It is the most moving thing I have seen to date, I still get goosebumps just thinking about it. May all of our Warriors get the respect that they deserve.

Hootiewho
08-29-07, 13:27
You are right, everytime I see a Military service on TV it takes me right back to my Grandfathers service, and my cousin's service. It cannot be explained unless you experience it. I feel for those fighting that have lost friend after friend. We should always let Vets know how much we appreciate their service.

toddackerman
08-29-07, 13:31
Do you guys think that putting velcro staps on tactical gear is that great of an idea? I am not LE/Mil, just an average joe that has spent most of my spare time hunting. From hunting, I learned a long time ago, that anything with velcro on it needs to go. If you are in the woods trying to be quiet and have to get something out of your vest, you open the pocket and rrriiiippp. Any chance you had at a deer or coyote is gone because the noise is unmistakenable and travels quite a ways, especially on a cold morning. This can be bad in a tactical situation and the rip of the velcro could be just as bad as the cling from a Garand clip, letting the bad guy know, hey I am reloading right now. Why is there so much gear made with velcro instead of snaps or buckle's? Do any of you feel that velcro could give away your position? Better yet, say if you were sneaking up to serve a warrent and someone's magazine cover snag's and rips open. Would a snap or buckle not be better?In this situation, I would recommend tucking the velcro flap behind the pouch leaving the spare equipment ready to go without any noice. wjem you engage it.

Shihan
09-01-07, 05:36
I wish some of my gear had Velcro especially on the old M4 mag pouches.

Joseywales
09-04-07, 19:28
I use a velcro strap to string the front of my carbine to my vest. Works great. I figure if I do a riiiiip, it will be followed by a very loud BANG- BANG -BANG.

MX5
09-26-07, 12:27
I agree with the too loud for Velcro concern comments. However, I'm not out hunting deer, either.