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Lawdog-1
08-12-07, 00:38
Which is the easiest way to go for to get a SBR? I have a LMT lower that I plan on using. How hard is to get a Trust setup for a SBR? I think that I understand tthe long route,paperwork+$200.00 to send in to the ATF, But I don't understand the Trust route and how to get started and how much does it cost?

Don Robison
08-12-07, 00:51
Which is the easiest way to go for to get a SBR? I have a LMT lower that I plan on using. How hard is to get a Trust setup for a SBR? I think that I understand tthe long route,paperwork+$200.00 to send in to the ATF, But I don't understand the Trust route and how to get started and how much does it cost?


Any way that you do it, you have to fill out the paperwork and pay the $200 tax to the ATF. Setting up a Revocable Living Trust and putting the gun in the trust only gets you past needing CLEO signoff, photos and fingerprints.
See a lawyer to set up a trust for you. I usually runs a couple hundred dollars. You can also buy quicken software and set it up yourself for about $50. Many don't recommend it since you don't have any legal protection if it's messed up. I used quicken, then had a lawyer acquaintance look it over for me for the price of a lunch. Looking back I would just have a lawyer do it. I only saved about $150, but a bad outcome could have cost much more. Good luck

glklvr
08-12-07, 06:47
Don't do the trust unless you are absolutely sure you can't get CLEO signoff.

Derek_Connor
08-12-07, 06:53
Don't do the trust unless you are absolutely sure you can't get CLEO signoff.

Why do you suggest this?

5POINT56
08-12-07, 09:41
I live in FL and in Palm Beach county, where there is zero possibility of getting the CLEO sign off, despite the fact that class 3 is allowable in FL.

The trust is the route the vast majority use to get their SBR's and cans....and works beautifully. It's probably a couple hundred bucks to set it up properly.

I know of no reason to NOT go that route. It's pretty much the standard for getting it done where I live.

As mentioned before, the paperwork and tax stamp are requirements for EVERYONE who goes class 3. The question here is how to be able to complete that paperwork. One either needs a sign off by a CLEO...or another method, such as a trust.

When local law enforcement denies you your rights, the trust is an excellent way to go.

DRich
08-12-07, 11:48
Don't do the trust unless you are absolutely sure you can't get CLEO signoff.

I have to disagree with this statement. Using a trust is a perfectly legal method of limiting the number of potential obstacles and headaches from your NFA purchase. I see no need to ask my local CLEO for "permission" to purchase these items when the law allows me skip the option.

Don Robison
08-12-07, 11:58
I have to disagree with this statement. Using a trust is a perfectly legal method of limiting the number of potential obstacles and headaches from your NFA purchase. I see no need to ask my local CLEO for "permission" to purchase these items when the law allows me skip the option.

Another plus to the trust route is that it will enable your family to transfer or sell the items much easier if you list them as trustees or beneficiaries on the trust. It eliminates many of the probate pitfalls that can happen if you suddenly die.

CarlosDJackal
08-12-07, 18:16
Don't do the trust unless you are absolutely sure you can't get CLEO signoff.

DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV!!

Why the hell not? The advantages of a Trust include:

- No need for CLEO's signature.
- No need to get fingerprinted.
- The Trust-registered rifle can be transferred to anyone who is identified as a Trustee on the Trust. This means that if you identify your next-of-kin in the Trust, they won't have to jump through hoops to legally be in possession of your SBR should (God-forbid) something happen to you.

The last point should be more than enough reason to go the Revocable Trust way.

Bulldog1967
08-12-07, 21:45
Trust is the way to go. Do it.

glklvr
08-13-07, 07:55
Didn't mean to get anybody's feathers ruffled, guys. I just said that I wouldn't go the trust route unless I couldn't get CLEO signoff.

I deal with corporations, trusts and LLCs on a daily basis and I see how screwed up they can get in their incorporation and maintenance. I just see it as another burder to have to deal with, in addition to all the NFA red tape. I just feel its not worth it unless necessary- if it is, have at it.

I guess I'm just spoiled. Tennessee has (in effect) a "shall issue" C3 law. The CLEO is required to sign off on NFA paperwork within 15 days or show cause as to why the person cannot own an NFA item. My last SBR paperwork was returned to me within a week.

Robb Jensen
08-13-07, 08:01
Show me how more than one person could be in possession of the NFA item on a regular individual tax stamp without violating Federal law and I would think you're on to something.

This is the number 1 reason why my wife and I use a Revocable Living Trust for NFA. We're both Grantors and Trustees. So either of us can be in possession of the NFA stuff the Trust owns while the other isn't present.

CarlosDJackal
08-13-07, 13:33
...I guess I'm just spoiled. Tennessee has (in effect) a "shall issue" C3 law. The CLEO is required to sign off on NFA paperwork within 15 days or show cause as to why the person cannot own an NFA item. My last SBR paperwork was returned to me within a week.

No feather ruffling. Just pointing out the facts.

Think of it this way; what would be the cost for any of your immediate family to legally be in sole possession of any of your NFA items? If for example, your wife (if married), child (if you have any and they are of legal age), or a sibling (if applicable) were to ask you if they could take an NFA item (that was not registered to a corporation) to a range or a firearms class; could you let them do so without having to go with them?

gunny
08-14-07, 02:59
Sorta off topic but Someone correct me if I'm wrong please. I heard scuttlebutt that when you die your family has rights to your NFA item if you leave it to them in your will whether you otained it via trust or Form 1? Personally, I'm not concerned whether my family has legal access to my SBR's while I'm living, but I would like them to be able to do what they like with the SBR's after I'm gone. Mine are all Form 1'd (I'm lucky since my boss signs off on all LEO's forms & we do our own finger printing while the records clerk takes care of the Triple III/criminal history. One of the deputy prosecutors that works for my county used to be on the civil practice side & gave me that intel. Now I'm curious if there is a NFA guru here with legal knowledge of this since this might not be the case in all states?

Robb Jensen
08-14-07, 06:28
Sorta off topic but Someone correct me if I'm wrong please. I heard scuttlebutt that when you die your family has rights to your NFA item if you leave it to them in your will whether you otained it via trust or Form 1? Personally, I'm not concerned whether my family has legal access to my SBR's while I'm living, but I would like them to be able to do what they like with the SBR's after I'm gone. Mine are all Form 1'd (I'm lucky since my boss signs off on all LEO's forms & we do our own finger printing while the records clerk takes care of the Triple III/criminal history. One of the deputy prosecutors that works for my county used to be on the civil practice side & gave me that intel. Now I'm curious if there is a NFA guru here with legal knowledge of this since this might not be the case in all states?

Best thing would be to contact a lawyer that's very familiar with NFA law but I do believe that is correct. I've not known anyone who's passed away and left something to somebody in a will. But from what I do know it's a tax free transfer. It'll be legal in all states as long as the state doesn't prohibit NFA.

GaryG
08-16-07, 14:10
I'll add my $.02 to the Trust vs Stamp controversary that some may see as illogical or irrational:

I like to own and use toys that are in my name, and would not like to be in the situation where I'm 'borrowing' them from the corporate entity (i.e., Trust) that actually ownes them. (its that same feeling that makes me buy my cars, instead of leasing them, even though leasing might make more sense financially).

If you can get the Stamp and the Form 4 in your name, I'd do it.

Don Robison
08-16-07, 14:25
I'll add my $.02 to the Trust vs Stamp controversary that some may see as illogical or irrational:

I like to own and use toys that are in my name, and would not like to be in the situation where I'm 'borrowing' them from the corporate entity (i.e., Trust) that actually ownes them. (its that same feeling that makes me buy my cars, instead of leasing them, even though leasing might make more sense financially).

If you can get the Stamp and the Form 4 in your name, I'd do it.


I see what you're saying, but the trust name can be whatever you like and you own the trust, therefore you own everything in the trust.
My trust bears my name and has me listed at the grantor and trustee as well as my wife listed as a trustee. It just makes the process easier IMHO. No need to make two trips to the Sheriff Department 30 miles away, no need to pay to have fingerprints done or passport photos. Having the trust cuts my paper work and travel time from a couple of hours spread out over a couple of weeks to 10 minutes spread out over 10 minutes. YMMV

NightFighter
08-24-07, 21:20
Could someone post a link to information concerning the Trust and Trust information?:confused:

Robb Jensen
08-24-07, 21:22
I see what you're saying, but the trust name can be whatever you like and you own the trust, therefore you own everything in the trust.
My trust bears my name and has me listed at the grantor and trustee as well as my wife listed as a trustee. It just makes the process easier IMHO. No need to make two trips to the Sheriff Department 30 miles away, no need to pay to have fingerprints done or passport photos. Having the trust cuts my paper work and travel time from a couple of hours spread out over a couple of weeks to 10 minutes spread out over 10 minutes. YMMV

Don't post something logical and factual............you might actually confuse someone. ;)

Don Robison
08-24-07, 21:46
Don't post something logical and factual............you might actually confuse someone. ;)


I'll try harder to refrain from it. My appologies:D

SHIVAN
08-24-07, 22:26
They are both legal & common methods of acquiring, or making, a Title II device.

I use the individual route because my sheriff will sign off on them through an LT in his internal affairs office.

The trust route is appealing to me in order to avoid having to make the trip for prints. Though I've even streamlined that process when I am ready to make several acquisitions. I simply get 6 or 8 cards done at once. :cool:

Neither is better, in the grand scheme of things, than the other unless you have some sort of mitigating circumstance, that requires the use of one over the other.

Each person needs to assess their own situation and use what is best for them.

NightFighter
08-25-07, 22:04
Let me see if I got this straight. If I get my SBR the normal way I am the only one who can be in possession of the weapon. If I get an SBR under a trust me or anyone I name can be in possession of the weapon. Beside having to buy Quicken software or going to a lawyer is there somewhere where I can find the paper work to set up a trust? Thanks in advance.

Robb Jensen
08-26-07, 03:11
Let me see if I got this straight. If I get my SBR the normal way I am the only one who can be in possession of the weapon. If I get an SBR under a trust me or anyone I name can be in possession of the weapon. Beside having to buy Quicken software or going to a lawyer is there somewhere where I can find the paper work to set up a trust? Thanks in advance.

Yes if an NFA item is in your name only and you aren't in possession of it and somebody else is you and the other person could end up in deep kim-chee.

In my Trust my wife and I are both 'Grantors and Trustees', either of us can possess the NFA items without the others presence.

I used Quicken and had an attorney friend look it over for flaws.

SHIVAN
08-26-07, 15:22
In order for an alternate person to be in possession of a Trust owned NFA item, do they need to be grantors, trustees, both, or something else?

This was one reason I considered a corporation vs. a trust. I could stipulate authorized corporate "officers" who could be in possession of corporate assets, without actually being a party to the corporation or the trust.

Curious to hear about how it's handled in the trust model.

Robb Jensen
08-27-07, 04:57
In order for an alternate person to be in possession of a Trust owned NFA item, do they need to be grantors, trustees, both, or something else?

This was one reason I considered a corporation vs. a trust. I could stipulate authorized corporate "officers" who could be in possession of corporate assets, without actually being a party to the corporation or the trust.

Curious to hear about how it's handled in the trust model.


The Grantors can each be in possession of the NFA item. I really don't know if Trustees can be in possession (if of age). That would be a question for an attorney. (in my case it's just my wife and I).

If they would be legal, it would be VERY wise for them to carry a copy of the Trust so it shows that persons name with in it since it wouldn't be in the title of the Trust.

Honestly I think it's only the Grantors since a Trustee that isn't both a Grantor and Trustee wouldn't really be doing business for the Trust if the Grantors are alive. This is purely my opinion, not legal advice.

Don Robison
08-27-07, 21:42
Good question that I'll have to research. When I set my trust up the info I was given was that the trustees were akin to corporation employees because a trustee was empowered with acting for the trust. As such they could be in possession. Regardless it's probably a good idea for them to have a copy of the trust if they have an item without the grantor present.

robert357
08-28-07, 21:58
Be careful here... it is actually the trustee that has legal ownership, not the grantors. That is the effect of a trust, the grantor transfers the ownership of the res to the trust and the trustee now takes constructive possession of the res (the property in the trust) and manages for the benefit of the beneficiaries. It just so happens that in the NFA trusts that we are all creating, the Grantor and the Trustee happen to be the same people.

Don Robison
08-29-07, 02:13
Be careful here... it is actually the trustee that has legal ownership, not the grantors. That is the effect of a trust, the grantor transfers the ownership of the res to the trust and the trustee now takes constructive possession of the res (the property in the trust) and manages for the benefit of the beneficiaries. It just so happens that in the NFA trusts that we are all creating, the Grantor and the Trustee happen to be the same people.


That's what I was thinking also. I think my lawyer friend dumbed it down for my public educated understanding. But that is in essence what he told me.

nationwide
08-29-07, 10:58
Creating a Trust, or forming an LLC is a AWESOME way to get your NFA toys!!!


Well... right up until your state changes their trust or LLC laws... :eek:

IF you are able to obtain a CLEO sign off in your home AO, that's the way you should go. Then the item(s) are YOURS no question asked.

But hey, it's your stuff...

Don Robison
08-29-07, 13:10
Creating a Trust, or forming an LLC is a AWESOME way to get your NFA toys!!!


Well... right up until your state changes their trust or LLC laws... :eek:

IF you are able to obtain a CLEO sign off in your home AO, that's the way you should go. Then the item(s) are YOURS no question asked.

But hey, it's your stuff...


Just out of curiosity, what exactly would lead you to believe that you don't own what is in your trust, or that it can somehow suddenly be taken from you? I've seen this brought up many times here and other places, but no one has ever expressed exactly what it is that concerns them. If the state law changes, you simply change your trust to reflect the change in state law.
The flip side to the don't do trust argument is what if your local or state government bans privately owned NFA items? I would be more concerned with that than whatever changes the state would make regarding trusts.

Derek_Connor
08-29-07, 15:18
Just out of curiosity, what exactly would lead you to believe that you don't own what is in your trust, or that it can somehow suddenly be taken from you? I've seen this brought up many times here and other places, but no one has ever expressed exactly what it is that concerns them. If the state law changes, you simply change your trust to reflect the change in state law.
The flip side to the don't do trust argument is what if your local or state government bans privately owned NFA items? I would be more concerned with that than whatever changes the state would make regarding trusts.


I think the concern might not be the state laws. Its the ATF.

Everyone put your tinfoil hats on now.....

If some how the ATF ruled that the legal entity, trusts, could no longer qualify to own Class Three weapons for whatever reason. All Irrevocable Trusts with class three items inside that trust would be deemed contraband and need to be returned/destroyed.

Whats the probability of this happening? I dont think someone could put an actual # on it, but when you have a CLEO sign off on it, its not held by a legal entity other than yourself, and cannot be taken away unless you do something stupid with it, or end up in the felony status with your state for other reasons...

nationwide
08-29-07, 21:41
Just out of curiosity, what exactly would lead you to believe that you don't own what is in your trust, or that it can somehow suddenly be taken from you? I've seen this brought up many times here and other places, but no one has ever expressed exactly what it is that concerns them. If the state law changes, you simply change your trust to reflect the change in state law.
The flip side to the don't do trust argument is what if your local or state government bans privately owned NFA items? I would be more concerned with that than whatever changes the state would make regarding trusts.

All it takes for a State to prohibit Trusts from owning NFA items is the stroke of a pen, as in an executive order or proclamation from the Governor.

In the event a state bans privately owned NFA items, it will most likely be a ban against anyone except a Law Enforcement Agency or SOT...

Having a trust doesn't get you around the '68 or '86 bans, does it?

Don Robison
08-30-07, 01:01
All it takes for a State to prohibit Trusts from owning NFA items is the stroke of a pen, as in an executive order or proclamation from the Governor.

In the event a state bans privately owned NFA items, it will most likely be a ban against anyone except a Law Enforcement Agency or SOT...

Having a trust doesn't get you around the '68 or '86 bans, does it?



I think the concern might not be the state laws. Its the ATF.

Everyone put your tinfoil hats on now.....

If some how the ATF ruled that the legal entity, trusts, could no longer qualify to own Class Three weapons for whatever reason. All Irrevocable Trusts with class three items inside that trust would be deemed contraband and need to be returned/destroyed.

Whats the probability of this happening? I dont think someone could put an actual # on it, but when you have a CLEO sign off on it, its not held by a legal entity other than yourself, and cannot be taken away unless you do something stupid with it, or end up in the felony status with your state for other reasons...




Both good answers, I guess my feeling on it, is either could happen. And both are just as likely to happen as individual weapons being banned. The one reason I believe LLC and trust weapons wouldn't be affected is because typically the "banners" go after individuals and not "entities" Many if not most people including law enforcement and law makers aren't even aware that it's possible to own NFA items in a trust or LLC.

Robb Jensen
08-30-07, 07:37
Honestly I think it's only the Grantors since a Trustee that isn't both a Grantor and Trustee wouldn't really be doing business for the Trust if the Grantors are alive. This is purely my opinion, not legal advice.

And I'm wrong (an attorney here on this board told me so), see this is why I know I'm human and is also why I put that disclaimer in there and typed 'I think' ;)

The good thing is that I can admit when I am wrong.

siegrisj
11-02-12, 13:53
To set up a trust for a SBR, do you have to pay one stamp to assemble the rifle and then another to transfer it to the trust? Or can the trust "assemble/manufacture" the SBR? :confused:

siegrisj
11-02-12, 13:59
Nothing to see here

Devildawg2531
11-02-12, 18:39
I like the idea that my children can enjoy my toy's after I'm gone. I haven't yet gotten any Class III's but my understanding is that you can name others as part of the trust. My question is if you go the individual stamp in your name route what happen's when you take the celestial dirt nap?

Iraqgunz
11-02-12, 23:27
First off why not post in a new thread instead of one that is over 5 years old?

Why not read the stickies and other information about NFA stuff first? It will provide you alot of info.