View Full Version : pulling trigger after empty mag?
I have a new shooting buddy (seriously, its not me!) that has a habit that I feel is seriously dangerous:
After shooting S/A pistols or his AR, he will drop the slide & pull the trigger. When I first started shooting with him, I tried explaining there is absolutely no reason to do this, and its actually a pretty dangerous habit. He tried telling me the person who taught his Concealed class told him this is a good idea. Well, I went to the same guy, and I didn't hear that part, nor do I see him saying this, as he's been thru probably 50+ classes with LFI & others.
Anyway, about 2 months back, he was shooting MY M&P, and after the 'last' round, he dropped the slide on an empty mag, and BAM! A ND right at his feet. There was me & 2 others had just taken their earplugs out. Obviously the last round FTF. We were shooting nickle cased rounds, and his pistol is a XD which has silver mags--so he glanced, saw silver, and assumed it was the mag (M&P mags are black). I lectured him for the next 1/2 hour, and he said that cured him.
Well, now he has an AR & is doing the same thing after he takes the mag out. I still believe this is not a good habit.
Please chime in...am I nuts or is he?
new shooting buddy would be ex shooting buddy real quick. lives could be at stake.
At leagues or matches where they require you to have an empty pistol in the hoster, after your stage the range officer will have you show empty, then pull the trigger prior to re-holstering while still on the line, pointed downrange. If your friend does this prior to reholstering, he should be pointed downrange, and anticipate the gun going off. Anyone who will pull the trigger on a firearm and not expect it to go off has some very dangerous habits. To me pulling the trigger isn't dangerous, it is the manner in which this is done. If he does it like in a match, fine...but if he does it while dicking around with pistols on a tailgate or table, or while pointed indiscriminately...don't ever invite him shooting again.
He is probably confused with what he was told.To "Make Safe"... First you remove the magazine to begin making safe, then you never "drop" the slide on an empty chamber, you "lower" it, then you drop the hammer while the gun is pointing safely down range and holster.
He has probably been taught the above by someone he respects and just didn't listen or understand what he was taught. You might explain this to him and have him read the IDPA rules.
new shooting buddy would be ex shooting buddy real quick. lives could be at stake.
I agree wholeheartedly.
It is a method taught in the Canadian Forces and some other armies, HOWEVER...magazine is not in the weapon and when the person pulls the trigger the weapon is pointed at the target or downrange and the member is instructed to always expect that a round may discharge.
It is neither a good habit or a bad habit, I don't do this myself. The most important thing is that you physicaly and visually inspect the chamber, bolt face and magazine area to insure there is no rounds still present.
I've seen an MP-5 get locked to the rear and magazine taken off and it still fed a live round because the round did not eject but got partially stuck in the magazine housing.
The golden rule is physically and visually inspect the three points above and never assume the state of the weapon.
Hope this helps.
Complication
12-10-10, 10:44
If he's still doing it with his AR, then he hasn't gotten it yet.
If someone has gotten lecture about how unsafe it is, has an ND which was probably inches from taking off a toe, gets another lecture about how unsafe it is, and then continues doing it on another weapon platform, that person has pretty solidly demonstrated their inability to be safe around firearms.
It's that whole "striker forward, hammer down" BS that the gun games force you to do at matches.
There is ZERO reason to do it when you don't have a Match Director/Safety Officer telling you that you have to, or they'll disqualify you from the match. Even then, treat it like you would treat dry-firing at home. Take your time to ensure clear, sight in, point in a safe direction, etc.
A gunstore I used to work at had a range. That range did rentals. We had one worker who had a habbit of that "striker forward, hammer down" shit. They sent a round into our ceiling, inches past a customers head. Blind luck that no-one was killed.
If you have an instructor tell you its a "good idea", ask for your money back.
glockkid88
12-11-10, 11:13
I was also wondering if you were at a range that requires you to run cold? I and all of my shooting partners as well as the training I have been to run a hot range and this is the right way imo. If you run a hot range you and everyone else knows that the guns are loaded. The only way a gun is not loaded is if we administratively unload the guns and everyone knows it e.g. dry fire drills, and packing up gear to leave.
Robb Jensen
12-11-10, 11:29
We had a guy come by the shop about a week ago doing something very weird with his Glock. He said he learned this at Gunsite or FrontSight I can't remember which.
Anyway here is what he was doing.
He would lock the slide to the rear then use the slide stop lever to allow it to go forward.
Sometimes the trigger bar wouldn't reset. He said during actual firing it worked fine.
Then he locked the slide to the rear again and then pulled the trigger with the slide still to the rear.
I warned him repeatedly to never to this to a Glock because:
1. you can damage the trigger safety (making it not work when needed).
2. you can damage the frame.
I installed a new trigger bar in it for him and showed him that it would reset everytime. Again he resets the trigger, locks it to the rear and with the slide to the rear pulls the trigger again......Here's your sign.
Every serious shooter I know stores their unloaded firearms hammer down on an empty chamber.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with dropping the hammer on an empty chamber assuming some very standard precautions are used. This is SOP and required (for the pistol) in most action type cold range matches (IPSC, IDPA, 3-Gun).
It's also a very good idea if you have people of varied backgrounds behind the line with holstered pistols.
Gun pointed down range (or in a safe direction if not at a range).
Mag out.
Rack the slide and visibly inspect the chamber.
Slide forward; hammer down; holster or bag it.
If not holstered or bagged, (i.e. placed on the shooting bench), it's normal (and frequently mandatory) to leave it locked open.
Robb Jensen
12-11-10, 12:22
Every serious shooter I know stores their unloaded firearms hammer down on an empty chamber.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with dropping the hammer on an empty chamber assuming some very standard precautions are used. This is SOP and required (for the pistol) in most action type cold range matches (IPSC, IDPA, 3-Gun).
It's also a very good idea if you have people of varied backgrounds behind the line with holstered pistols.
Gun pointed down range (or in a safe direction if not at a range).
Mag out.
Rack the slide and visibly inspect the chamber.
Slide forward; hammer down; holster or bag it.
If not holstered or bagged, (i.e. placed on the shooting bench), it's normal (and frequently mandatory) to leave it locked open.
Yep and if your gun goes BANG! When you're unloading, showing clear and hammer down you get a nice trip to the Dairy Queen (DQ'd aka disqualified). I've seen it happen more than a few times.
the only thing your friend is doing wrong is failing to drop the mag. dropping the mag is part of weapon clearance for a reason.
one of the most common types of NDs comes from failing to drop the mag.
Yep and if your gun goes BANG! When you're unloading, showing clear and hammer down you get a nice trip to the Dairy Queen (DQ'd aka disqualified). I've seen it happen more than a few times.
Yep, a clearing DQ is rather embarrassing, but brain farts can and do happen - (especially with, but not just limited to, new shooters). A similar instance by some DH behind the line is what cannot be tolerated.
Rosco Benson
12-11-10, 14:28
Yep and if your gun goes BANG! When you're unloading, showing clear and hammer down you get a nice trip to the Dairy Queen (DQ'd aka disqualified). I've seen it happen more than a few times.
Perhaps some folks here are worrying too much about dropping the hammer or striker on an empty chamber instead of focusing on the real issue of muzzle control.
Bear in mind that one won't be able to field strip one's Glock for cleaning without dropping the striker.
Rosco
Perhaps some folks here are worrying too much about dropping the hammer or striker on an empty chamber instead of focusing on the real issue of muzzle control.
Bear in mind that one won't be able to field strip one's Glock for cleaning without dropping the striker.
Rosco
There is a difference in "dryfire practice" "disassembling a gun" and "I do this every time I finish shooting a string".
When you watch people who habitually do the "striker forward hammer down" shit after everything, they race through it. They're not doing visual and physical checks...it's always drop-rack-click (or boom).
Contrast that with the guy who physically and visually inspects the chamber and magazine well twice, puts the ammo in the other room, etc. Just because the gun gets dryfired doesn't mean it's all the same thing.
Setting off a round downrange when you didn't want to IS NOT ok, just because it was downrange.
Too much "speed" clearing, just like "speed" holstering. This is something we have to harp on constantly during training and at the clearing barrel at the end of shift.
Some seem to think it's a sign of skill and will impress others.
Rosco Benson
12-11-10, 23:03
There is a difference in "dryfire practice" "disassembling a gun" and "I do this every time I finish shooting a string".
Well, you've got a point there. Every time the shooter finishes a string, he should scan, reload, and reholster. To do otherwise builds bad habits. This is one of the reasons I prefer a "hot" range. No one is under any illusion that they can be careless because "it isn't loaded".
However, if the shooter is finished shooting that weapon for the day and is going to return it to the range bag or its case, I see nothing wrong with clearing it, pointing it downrange, and dropping the hammer/striker.
Rosco
Failure2Stop
12-12-10, 12:58
If you are going to drop the hammer/striker, you better triple check the three points (just like you would do prior to dry fire) first.
If there is a magazine present, a round in the feedway, or a round in the chamber when you release the slide/bolt, you are wrong. Period.
If you don't need to drop the hammer, don't.
I don't with ARs, or Glocks, as it isn't necessary.
I do with 1911s, but simply because I don't like to keep the hammers cocked (however, do I ease the hammer forward with my thumb and index finger of my non-firing hand).
Usually, once people have an ND they become obsessed with their unloading methods. If your buddy didn't learn his lesson, he might not be the guy you want to spend a lot of time around with loaded firearms. Just sayin'.
John_Wayne777
12-12-10, 13:40
There is absolutely nothing wrong with dropping the hammer on an empty chamber assuming some very standard precautions are used. This is SOP and required (for the pistol) in most action type cold range matches (IPSC, IDPA, 3-Gun).
My personal opinion is that pulling the trigger should be trained as an action reserved for an occasion when you want the weapon to discharge as opposed to making it a part of a safety check.
I understand that in some of the competitions they require pulling the trigger...but I think that's an example of being so safe that it's unsafe. Pulling the trigger is how we make weapons go bang. I don't see the wisdom in teaching people that the action we take to make the weapon discharge should also be a part of the process we use to make sure the weapon won't discharge.
This isn't a bad habit. Most of the time, you do it to unload the hammer spring. Of course you do it after removal of the mag, and pointing in a safe direction... That's the rule.
My personal opinion is that pulling the trigger should be trained as an action reserved for an occasion when you want the weapon to discharge as opposed to making it a part of a safety check.
I understand that in some of the competitions they require pulling the trigger...but I think that's an example of being so safe that it's unsafe. Pulling the trigger is how we make weapons go bang. I don't see the wisdom in teaching people that the action we take to make the weapon discharge should also be a part of the process we use to make sure the weapon won't discharge.
for range safety purposes, the idea isnt to pull the bang switch to prevent a bang, its to pull the bang switch to induce a bang, if theres to be one- downrange in a controlled way/place, rather than behind the line. this rule is because of peoples experience with "cleared" weapons going off anyway.
in the army, we were always required to clear, confirm, and drop hammer to verify clear- and it was mind-bogglingly common that at the command, somewhere down the firing line- POP... somebodys weapon discharged into the backstop.
its an example of something that works as intended, where intended... but doesnt work so well in your bedroom.
My personal opinion is that pulling the trigger should be trained as an action reserved for an occasion when you want the weapon to discharge as opposed to making it a part of a safety check.
I understand that in some of the competitions they require pulling the trigger...but I think that's an example of being so safe that it's unsafe. Pulling the trigger is how we make weapons go bang. I don't see the wisdom in teaching people that the action we take to make the weapon discharge should also be a part of the process we use to make sure the weapon won't discharge.
The correct way to drop the hammer at "Unload And Show Clear" is to take a deliberate sight picture on a target on the stage and pull the trigger, just like you do when dry firing. This re-enforces all four of the gun safety rules and keeps building all the good habits that you should use when you are not competing.
The jerkwads who do the rack, flip, catch the bullet, pull the trigger while pointing at a barricade and holster in 3 seconds are the ones I have to watch like a hawk.
I have shot at matches where everyone got hot at the beginning and stayed hot. It makes for a nice fast running match but some folks just can't handle it. Some folks just can't keep from ****ing with their guns or NDing at the safe table.
Gringop
ETA. RE. dropping the hammer to unload the spring. There is not a gun made out in the last 50 years that needs to have the hammer spring unloaded/relieved during storage. 1911, glocks, rimfires, shotguns, pot metal Jennings 380s, etc. can all sit in a safe for 20 years with the hammer cocked and still function perfectly. Grampaw's old advice about storing guns with trigger pulled is as wrong as putting a penny in a burned out fuse. Stupid and unsafe and we know better today.
I disagree. A spring is built with a certain tension, induced during the making, when the metal is hot.
When you keep the spring loaded, you weaken the spring for it tends to keep the shape you force him to have (that is, loaded position). So, for storage, it's always better to store the weapons, with the springs unloaded. That's a simple, basic physical rule.
Robb Jensen
12-13-10, 13:43
I disagree. A spring is built with a certain tension, induced during the making, when the metal is hot.
When you keep the spring loaded, you weaken the spring for it tends to keep the shape you force him to have (that is, loaded position). So, for storage, it's always better to store the weapons, with the springs unloaded. That's a simple, basic physical rule.
Constant compression isn't what wears out springs, what wears out springs them working/cycling back and forth. Every spring has a certain amount of cycles it'll work.
I agree that compression cycles cause the fastest spring wear, but I also think that all springs aren't created equal. Some springs seem to take a set faster than others from compression. So if I have a weapon that's going out of service for a while i'll relax the spring. If done correctly and safely I don't think there's a reason not to.
As an armorer, I always advise my students to store the weapons with all the springs unloaded. There's some kind of "shape memory" in every metallic part. If you force it to a certain shape, it will, overtime, keep that shape. That's what happens with the springs. If you force them to a certain extension, and leave it like that for, say, a few years, when you're going to need it, maybe it will lack the compression.
Heavy Metal
12-14-10, 12:35
I pull the trigger on my Glocks for storage unloaded after deliberatly making sure they are unloaded.
If I feel a trigger all the way to the rear during press-out, I instantly know I failed to charge my weapon and need to TRB.
I disagree. A spring is built with a certain tension, induced during the making, when the metal is hot.
When you keep the spring loaded, you weaken the spring for it tends to keep the shape you force him to have (that is, loaded position). So, for storage, it's always better to store the weapons, with the springs unloaded. That's a simple, basic physical rule.
I disagree with your disagreement. While I will grant that it's possible that the may be SOME weakening of a spring when it's stored compressed, I challenge anyone to show a measurable change in spring tension when it's stored compressed in it's normal working range.
Looking at my Glock, the striker spring is already compressed before it goes in the gun. When the striker is cocked, the spring gets compressed a further 3/8 of an inch. That 3/8 inch of compression is not going to cause any kind of failure to fire because of spring weakening when it sits in my safe for 3 months or 30 years. 90 % of the time the gun is on my hip fully loaded. I certainly don't worry about how my striker spring is getting weaker and weaker and may fail because it's under tension as I carry it every day.
Manufacturers aren't making springs by hammering pieces of steel after taking them out of the charcoal forge anymore. They are designing and testing mainsprings and striker springs to last longer than a barrel. In my 20 plus years of shooting and repairing my pistols I have never had to replace a main or striker spring because it got too weak to function.
So let's compare the good things achieved by having an unmeasurable increase in spring tension on the mainspring with the bad things achieved in developing a habit of pulling the trigger when we really don't want the gun to fire.
I build my own safe gun handling habits and teach my students safe gun handling habits by adhering to the four universal gun rules ALL THE TIME. 24 hours a day, 365 days of the year. I don't have any times when I say it's OK to break these rules. Not with loaded guns, unloaded guns, airsoft guns or red guns. Even when dry firing, I follow the 4 rules. My gun handling habits are not situationally dependant.
So why would I want to screw up my safe gun handling habits and "Treat a gun as if it was unloaded, stick my finger in the trigger guard without sights on a target, and not be sure of my target foreground and background" just to save an imperceptible amount of spring tension?
Some things are important and some things are not. Main springs and striker springs losing tension because they are stored cocked are not important.
Gringop
Gringop,
Do you feel the same about hammers staying cocked?
Gringop,
Do you feel the same about hammers staying cocked?
If I understand you correctly, you are asking if I feel the same about hammer vs. striker fired guns.
The answer is yes, all the guns in my safe, hammer and striker, stay cocked even when they are unloaded. To satisfy my curiosity, I pulled some guns out and measured how much the hammer strut moved.
1/4 inch is how much the spring is compressed from hammer down to full cock on a full frame 1911. At hammer down the spring is around 1 3/4 inch long.
3/16 inch movement on my SIG P6. Uncocked it's 1 3/4 inch.
1/4 inch movement on my BHP. Uncocked, it's 1 1/4 inch long
The striker spring on my M+P compresses 5/16 inch. Uncocked in the gun it's 1 3/8 inch.
It's not like these springs are being compressed to where the coils are touching each other or being battered and beaten like a red headed stepchild. The loadings and duty cycles are all planned and designed from the beginning.
So the 1/4 inch difference between a cocked or uncocked 1911 mainspring is not much of a factor in the reliability of the gun. An old worn out 12 lbs 1911 recoil spring vs a new 18lbs recoil spring is a big factor in the reliability of the gun. Different springs, different forces, different jobs.
Gringop
The force of a spring is measured in lbs, not in inches. Even if the spring is 1/8 of an inch shorter than its initial dimension, maybe that the energy it gives won't suffice to have a proper working.
As a matter of fact, I was talking about hammer springs mainly, or return springs.
And you know on a 1911 for instance, the return spring wears out, causing your gun to malfunction. On mine, a government series 80, after 10 years it would fail to feed every 4-5 rounds because the return spring was worn out, even though the compression in its "storage condition", is anything but strong.
I agree to a certain extent with what's been said though, the manufacturers achieve a level of reliability much higher than before, but still, I think it's better to have the springs in a relaxed position as much as possible..
Jesse Tischauser
12-15-10, 19:19
I always drop the hammer on an empty chamber when the muzzle is pointed in a safe direction.
...for range safety purposes... ...it was mind-bogglingly common that at the command, somewhere down the firing line- POP... somebodys weapon discharged into the backstop.
All of my formal training with firearms has been using hot ranges. On being exposed to this "cold range philosophy" at some action shooting practice nights I couldn't be given a real reason on how it makes anyone safer provided the 4 universal rules are adhered to, nor did anyone say they would feel safe with somebody violating the 4 universal rules after having seen somebody perform this "clearing" procedure.
I basically do this when and where required to go along and get along, but this rule is one of the dumbest things I have run into w/ regard to firearms handling in the community at large.
Jesse Tischauser
12-15-10, 19:58
All of my formal training with firearms has been using hot ranges. On being exposed to this "cold range philosophy" at some action shooting practice nights I couldn't be given a real reason on how it makes anyone safer provided the 4 universal rules are adhered to, nor did anyone say they would feel safe with somebody violating the 4 universal rules after having seen somebody perform this "clearing" procedure.
I basically do this when and where required to go along and get along, but this rule is one of the dumbest things I have run into w/ regard to firearms handling in the community at large.
You haven't been around a lot of new shooters at a pistol competition before have you? I have seem several guns and holsters dropped from belts. I did that myself in my first match. Not that any of them would have discharged when dropped but it ads another level of safety. Lots of new shooters have crappy holsters with zero retention and things happen. Furthermore the cold range concept and unload and show clear keeps new shooters from losing their train of thought when not shooting causing them to think its ok to pull out their new Kimber to show their new jealous buddy who only owns a Glock while standing BEHIND the firing line. I will admit the safety measures are redundant with the 4 rules but people aren't always smart enough to remember those rules.
dookie1481
12-15-10, 20:55
We had a guy come by the shop about a week ago doing something very weird with his Glock. He said he learned this at Gunsite or FrontSight I can't remember which.
Anyway here is what he was doing.
He would lock the slide to the rear then use the slide stop lever to allow it to go forward.
Sometimes the trigger bar wouldn't reset. He said during actual firing it worked fine.
Then he locked the slide to the rear again and then pulled the trigger with the slide still to the rear.
I warned him repeatedly to never to this to a Glock because:
1. you can damage the trigger safety (making it not work when needed).
2. you can damage the frame.
I installed a new trigger bar in it for him and showed him that it would reset everytime. Again he resets the trigger, locks it to the rear and with the slide to the rear pulls the trigger again......Here's your sign.
Oh shit, what about an M&P? This is what I do when I practice reloads with snap caps at home. Slide locked to the rear, pull trigger to simulate "click", reload, dry fire.
Will this cause the same problems on an M&P?
Jay
I will admit the safety measures are redundant with the 4 rules but people aren't always smart enough to remember those rules.
I don't want to be anywhere near people with guns not smart enough to follow 4 simple rules. They should go take up crocheting or something. Your post illustrates my point, with at least two sentences in which you contradict yourself about any real value of this procedure, particularly given other real safety rules that can be in place. Not trying to sound like a know it all or anything, I just don't honestly see the value of the procedure provided people are acting in a safe manner otherwise, which makes me think the real problem is... they are not.
If people show up at competitions with such crappy gear that their guns are hitting the deck a rule about gear would seem like a good idea.
I just don't honestly see the value of the procedure provided people are acting in a safe manner otherwise, which makes me think the real problem is... they are not.
Dropping the hammer to verify clear on a range, where the bullet is going down range is far better than having it go off behind the line. "bkb0000" has it right that the procedure is to induce the firing of a round if there is one in the chamber.
The thing to keep in mind is that when you run people through a course (or competition) for a few hours, it drains people of their focus and that may result in them being unsafe. I've been at this for a while and I have seen people get so mentally fried / worn out that occasionally a person accidentally does mess up the order of clearing a weapon. I've seen it more than once where the person has racked the action before dropping the magazine. It's not that they don't know better. It's simply that they've been overwhelmed that day with the information. Often they catch their own mistake but sometimes they don't and then they have a live round in the chamber but think they are empty.
People do fiddle with their gear and it is very easy to get a situation where someone violates one of the Four Rules when doing so. If he does it with a loaded gun (that he thinks is empty) you can have a catastrophe. I know "poor training / poor practice" will be raised but that's an easy way to overlook that it is possible for people to make mistakes regardless of their level of training and experience.
If people show up at competitions with such crappy gear that their guns are hitting the deck a rule about gear would seem like a good idea.
It can be difficult to craft a rule. If you start specifying brands you can run into someone being resentful that he has to buy a company's gear he does not like or want. Many times a person buys a gun at a gun show and gets some crummy gun show holster to go with it. The last class I went to a guy had a $2,000+ semi-custom 1911 in a pathetic $8 - $10 Uncle Mike's IWB holster. The holster was awful and did a lousy job. The shooter learned he needed a better holster from the experience but he had to see it fail first before he understood why it was not a good holster. Largely, I believe the situation is that the person doesn't know any better.
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