View Full Version : Samson Evolution Rail-First Impressions.
Hey guys,
I have a full length review inbound but i wanted to go ahead and post my first impressions of the rail after the install. I have NOT shot the setup yet but i will be doing so on Saturday. Also, please note that this IS a preproduction rail and there are certain changes being made as i will note in this review. There may be other changes but i am unaware of them at the time of writing this.
Pros:
The rail is very well made. The anodizing is a matte black and is type 3. The machining is clean and there are no sharp edges despite the rather intricate S shaped cutouts running the entire length of rail.
This thing is light. I dont have a postal scale so i cannot get exact weight but i believe that the quoted weight on the "other" site was 10.8 ounces including stock AR15 barrel nut.
Install is very easy despite my desire to ghetto gunsmith. I shaved my FSB, cut off my delta ring, pulled off the weld spring and the c-clamp as well.
The tensioning device for this rail acts as a thermal heat sink according to Samson and its really quite neat the way in which the whole thing locks up. No issues with fit, everything went on smoothly except for one minor hitch which i will detail later.
The diameter of the rail is perfect for my particular hand size and if i choose to do so i can wrap my entire hand around the rail with my thumb well over the top. Diameter of the rail at the widest point is 1.75 inches.
Perfectly round tubes are too hard for me to hold onto without a hand stop. This tube seems polygonal in design and this definitely lends itself to getting a better grip on the tube. I will have to shoot this thing in the Florida heat and see how well i can grip it with my sweat spewing hands and with gloves.
The lockup portion on the bottom of the rail that tensions it against the heat sink has two helicoil inserts. I intentionally tried to strip these out by over torquing the two bolts and was unable to do so.
When properly torque down (i dont have a torque spec for the two retaining allen head bolts, i will be calling Samson today to get one) the rail has almost ZERO flex. For a rail this small, light and thin im surprised by this. Normally if you apply pressure towards the end of the rail you can push enough to get the tube to shift location. Its not such a big deal as these rails are free floated around the barrel but if push comes to shove i prefer a rail that is 100% solid. The evolution rail is definitely solid.
The rail comes with three rail sections to add to the tube. I havent added these yet as ive never needed picatinny rail on my guns for anything other than a vert grip or handstop. I will be shooting the gun without a handstop for the time being as the profile of the rail lends itself to that style of grip very well. I will say that the way in which the rails mount up is quite nice. They will NOT shift on the tube as backer that secures the 1913 section is indexed to the rail itself. Once you torque down the rail sections they're on there to stay.
There are two anti rotation tabs that index on your upper receiver. This rail is not rotating, period.
Cons:
I only have a few cons thus far.
The rail cannot shotgun open completely as the locking collar prevents the upper from hinging open completely as it butts up against the lower receiver. This is a pretty big deal for me as every time i open the receiver i cringe if i dont do it slowly. I really do believe that uppers/rails/lowers that prevent the gun from opening completely are adding undue stress to parts that dont need to be stressed in that manner. Im not sure if Samson is addressing this although i did suggest that he radius the FRONT edge of the locking clamp to remove the square edge there and he said it was already in process on production rails.
Im a natural born skeptic and while the rail locks up SUPER tight its only held on by two screws. The rail itself does not actually lock itself onto the upper or the barrel nut. It is held onto the thermal collar by nothing more than friction and clamping action provided by two allen bolts. Now, let me say that the thermal collar DOES index onto the splines on the stock AR15 barrel nut so the entire assembly should not be rotating or moving. This is pretty neat as the profile of the rail, the profile of the thermal block and the actual anti rotation tabs provide TWO points of anti rotation to the system. I dont know exactly how much pressure is being applied to that area but i wasnt able to pull the rail off forward despite trying pretty damned hard. I think with the helicoil inserts, some locktite or rocksett on the allen bolts and you should be good to go for life.
The 11 inch rail is indeed 11 inches but the VERY front of my gas block is exposed. Not a big deal but if i had the option i would prefer a 11.25 or 11.5 inch rail to cover the shaved FSB completely. This is mostly a non issue and is more of my personal opinion being interjected here.
This isnt so much a con as it is an observation. The anti rotation tabs were very tight on my upper and gouged the material slightly upon installation. Truth be told i would rather have this too tight as it is a cosmetic issue and nothing more. I just wanted to point this out in case you sleep with your rifle at night and it requires plastic surgery if it should happen to fall and scrape its knee. Personally, i dont give a darn as the rail is locked on there. This is the "hitch" I alluded to earlier by the way.
Here are some preliminary pictures. I will be adding to this thread with more details and pictures once i get a chance to beat the rail up a little this weekend.
http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/5954/samsonevolution21of1.jpg
http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/2007/samsonevolution11of1.jpg
http://img814.imageshack.us/img814/1442/samsonevolution1of1.jpg
Good write-up Ian! But, I must say ... That rifle looks too clean and lacks "character".
Now let me keep if for a couple weeks and lets see how it holds up to me and my idea of "running a rifle through its functions" ... :big_boss:
Terminator2003
12-10-10, 13:37
Looks like a nice rig, thanks for the detailed review!. I agree on the length. That would bug me if it didn't cover a shaved gas block. I would rather just mill the top of the cover to fit around the stock front sight, if it wasn't going to completely cover it. Hopefully they will address the interference problem with that lower clamp too. I would not want something that would add stress to the pivot pin, or mark the lower receiver.
Nice write up. Lets see more photos of the rail. BTW, interesting to see Samson using a very similar setup to the Troy/VTAC TRX Extreme handguards in terms of attaching to the receiver. I would not be surprised at Show 2011 to see more and more of these types of handguards from the industry.
Nice write up. Lets see more photos of the rail. BTW, interesting to see Samson using a very similar setup to the Troy/VTAC TRX Extreme handguards in terms of attaching to the receiver. I would not be surprised at Show 2011 to see more and more of these types of handguards from the industry.
Besides the fact that there is a clamp the locking/attachment methods are entirely different.
The way in which the tube bolts around the heat sink is genius. No need to remove barrel nuts, no issues with differing specifications for heat treat, steel quality etc in the barrel nut itself as you're using a factory spec'd nut, hopefully a good quality one too. :)
Also, no need to re zero since there is no "advanced" gunsmithing involved. I will confirm my zero but it should not have shifted.
Besides the fact that there is a clamp the locking/attachment methods are entirely different.
The way in which the tube bolts around the heat sink is genius. No need to remove barrel nuts, no issues with differing specifications for heat treat, steel quality etc in the barrel nut itself as you're using a factory spec'd nut, hopefully a good quality one too. :)
Also, no need to re zero since there is no "advanced" gunsmithing involved. I will confirm my zero but it should not have shifted.
Very interesting, thanks for the clarification.
Besides the fact that there is a clamp the locking/attachment methods are entirely different.
The way in which the tube bolts around the heat sink is genius. No need to remove barrel nuts, no issues with differing specifications for heat treat, steel quality etc in the barrel nut itself as you're using a factory spec'd nut, hopefully a good quality one too. :)
Also, no need to re zero since there is no "advanced" gunsmithing involved. I will confirm my zero but it should not have shifted.
Nice write up and looks like a good product.
How is that barrel nut lock-up substantially different than Troy's TRX Extreme? (I know that the Troy uses a proprietary barrel nut, but it looks very similar, as does the clamp with two bolts)
Samson says this'll fit a 308 upper as well. Nobody seems to have any pics yet however. I wanna know if the rail height will match a MEGA MATEN upper rec.
Nice write up and looks like a good product.
How is that barrel nut lock-up substantially different than Troy's TRX Extreme? (I know that the Troy uses a proprietary barrel nut, but it looks very similar, as does the clamp with two bolts)
Boss,
The Troy TRX rails index on the nut and are rotated into place. They are actually retained by the splines on the nut and then clamped into place via the 6 o'clock positioned bolts.
The Samson rail has a barrel nut heat sink that is indexed onto the teeth of the barrel nut. The rail is then slid onto the heat sink and tightened down via the six o'clock clamp. The machined "waves" on both the rail tube itself and the heat sink prevent the rail from rotating along with the actual anti rotation tabs that interface with your upper receiver.
The Troy lockup could be perceived to be better in that it cannot move foward off of its barrel nut unless it rotates off after coming loose but honestly, i think i would break my weapon before i am able to pull this Samson rail off of the heat sink collar, its that tight.
Ultimately, you're hosed IF the rail comes loose but i would trust the factory barrel nut over any aftermarket nut any day of the week. Even if the rail falls off you still have a "functional" weapon with both the troy and samson rail designs.
I will get pictures for you guys this weekend of the way the rail locks onto the collar, its really quite ingenious and neat.
Another photo after todays session.
http://img574.imageshack.us/img574/9452/samsonevolution31of1.jpg
Some quick thoughts.
1. The rail gets hot. Running a high volume of fire carbine course is going to get uncomfortable fast. At the same time, the rail also dissipates heat fairly quickly due to how well ventilated it is. The slim profile also means that there is simply not all that much material there to absorb heat. Either that or the heat sink barrel nut shroud/mounting collar really is pulling heat off of the rail THAT well. Im not sure as im not an engineer.
2. The slim profile is awesome, even better than i had anticipated. This deserves mention once more.
3. The lockup is solid as can be. No wiggle in the rail, ZERO despite the use of a two point sling. We shot from supine today and i generally press out with the rifle just enough to apply forward pressure on the sling to help mitigate recoil and keep the sights in line with my eyes. Zero flex on the rail while doing this and i tend to push with my reaction hand fairly hard for the sake of consistency.
I am very pleased with this rail and i cannot wait to see how it holds up over time. A little under 500 rounds through it today and no movement on the mounting bolts.
My only real concern is whether or not this rifle will be suited towards high volume training. I have my doubts but honestly, as a civi, my love of carbines is rooted mostly in fantasy and a desire to practice a skill set that i find fascinating. The likelihood of me needing to grab a rifle is slim to none so for me, this is not a go to war weapon and if the light weight, profile and ease of use works for me the worst case scenario is that i have to don a glove in order to train.
Thanks again Samson for what i believe to be one of the best tubular rail systems on the market
Received mine yesterday. Some of the edges are kind of sharp, but it should do well. You don't need 360 degrees of rail space- look at the cost savings of doing it this way with modular rail pieces.
I'm in the market for a Daniel Defense but the Samson is damn sexy and cheap.
I like the fact that it uses the factory barrel nut and has two symmetric anti-rotation tabs instead of the one-sided tab like the Troy/VTAC.
1. The rail gets hot. Running a high volume of fire carbine course is going to get uncomfortable fast. At the same time, the rail also dissipates heat fairly quickly due to how well ventilated it is. The slim profile also means that there is simply not all that much material there to absorb heat. Either that or the heat sink barrel nut shroud/mounting collar really is pulling heat off of the rail THAT well. Im not sure as im not an engineer.
How hot say compared to a quad rail like a Daniel Defense if you've shot one of those?
I like it. I appears to be a bit "beefier" than the Troy/VTAC rail. Maybe it's just the pics.
spamsammich
01-05-11, 07:53
I'm in the market for a Daniel Defense but the Samson is damn sexy and cheap.
I like the fact that it uses the factory barrel nut and has two symmetric anti-rotation tabs instead of the one-sided tab like the Troy/VTAC.
How hot say compared to a quad rail like a Daniel Defense if you've shot one of those?
In my experience with Troy/VTAC extreme rails, these low profile tube rails get just as hot as DD rails, but there is nothing insulating you from the hot metal. I used to put XTMs everywhere on my DD rails so I could shoot for quite a while without really getting uncomfortable without gloves. I'd say gloves are a must if you are shooting extended strings of fire with these low profile rails without sections on them for insulating rail covers. I was able to shoot slightly higher volumes with only an AFG and gloves. I shot about 120 rounds with about 1 second between shots before it became uncomfortable with gloves and AFG. Without gloves I was really pushing it to get 90 rounds with teh same rate of fire.
The rail cannot shotgun open completely as the locking collar prevents the upper from hinging open completely as it butts up against the lower receiver. This is a pretty big deal for me as every time i open the receiver i cringe if i dont do it slowly. I really do believe that uppers/rails/lowers that prevent the gun from opening completely are adding undue stress to parts that dont need to be stressed in that manner. Im not sure if Samson is addressing this although i did suggest that he radius the FRONT edge of the locking clamp to remove the square edge there and he said it was already in process on production rails.
How far of a difference is there shotgunning open as compared to non-tube rails and a stock HG?
dennisuello
01-05-11, 16:58
I like their optional extension. I'd like to see that for Troy TRX.
http://www.samson-mfg.com/images-product/Evolution/Evolution_Series_4_Rail_Extension-A.jpg
BTW, what's the OD of the tube?
Slot cut down the middle of the add on rails is unacceptable.
The S cooling slots are a bit of a disappointment in terms of using them for mount-n-slot type things. Looks (just from the pics) like it would be harder to keep things in place (??)
Whats the total weight of the system?
The S cooling slots are a bit of a disappointment in terms of using them for mount-n-slot type things. Looks (just from the pics) like it would be harder to keep things in place (??)
The inside mounting plate has fins that lock with the fins inside the tube.
I'd highly suggest emailing or calling Scott Samson and he will gladly answer any questions you have. He's a really pleasant guy to talk to.
I really think it is embarassing for them to start adding middle slots down the rails when they haven't been doing it before.
I really think it is embarassing for them to start adding middle slots down the rails when they haven't been doing it before.
Scott,
Im going to agree there. Why do manufacturers feel the need to add slots on their rail sections?
Also, weights are listed here:
http://www.samson-mfg.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=SM&Product_Code=Samson_Evolution_Series&Category_Code=AR-15_Evolution_Series
I dont have individual weights for the rail sections as i do not own a postal scale.
To address some of the other questions. The rifle normally will shotgun open 90 degrees. With the current version of the rail i have the rifle will not open more than 45 degrees. Keep in mind i have a pre production version so take this info with a grain of salt.
As far as how hot the rifle gets i cant really answer that as i havent taken surface temperatures of the rail material and heat sensitivity is subjective. It doesnt become too uncomfortable to hold but you can feel the heat. This rail is not for someone that wants to do mag dumps or shoot full auto.
I have the 11" version and without the rail sections and AR barrel nut (but with the 2-piece clamp that goes over the barrel nut) it weighs 10.8 ounces on a very accurate scale.
Slot cut down the middle of the add on rails is unacceptable.
Why is that?
justin_247
01-09-11, 09:56
Magsz,
This is a really awesome write-up. Do you have any experience with Troy's offerings? How do you think this compares?
Justin,
I like troys offering but i believe the Samson rail is superior for a few reasons.
1. I like the simplicity of the Samson install. Im using my stock barrel nut, i had no need or requirement for a torque wrench to install this rail and like i said earlier, absolutely no question or concerns over using sub par materials in a critical component of the operating system, ie the barrel nut. Now, im NOT saying that Troy is using sub par steels but im not a fan of mixing and matching parts.
2. The rail has a slightly fatter profile than the troy offerings which means the height of the top rail while the same does not have a ledge to it. The outer diameter of the tube, being larger, means that the circular sides of the handguard are closer to the rail intself. For me, this makes it more comfortable and easier to grip when wrapping the hand around the entire tube. The troy is not uncomfortable per say but it is definitely not as comfortable as the Samson unit.
3. The TRX rail is not that comfortable due to all of the ridges on it. My fingers tend to find their way into the holes which i do not like. The Extreme units are more comfortable for me in this regard. The S shaped slots on the samson unit look weird but are not uncomfortable due to their small size.
All in all im extremely pleased with this rail for what it offers. I made the switch to a free float rail not because i was looking for some sort of accuracy advantage or cool guy factor but simply because it allows me to pull the rifle into my shoulder without any shifting of the handguards against the delta ring/barrel nut. Zero movement where i grip my rifle means a more stable shooting platform.
If i were going to war a tubular style handguard is NOT something i would pick. A DD, KAC or Larue, handguard would be placed on the rifle and rail covers would be attached to shield my hand from heat. As a civilian shooter having the option to add a free float, stable forearm to the rifle for under 200 dollars is VERY hard to beat.
Does anyone want to see any other pictures of anything in particular on the rifle?
justin_247
01-11-11, 14:22
Thanks for the detailed reply. From what you said, I think I would probably prefer this rail to the Troy...
I'll have to give this more consideration for the stainless rig I'm building.
justin_247
01-11-11, 14:27
Why is that?
I'm still waiting for an answer to this question.
I'm still waiting for an answer to this question.
Speaking of rails, what would have been a better option is to have the add-on rails bolt directly into threaded holes in the tube. Those backing plates are a royal pain in the ass, especially if you're putting them in the middle of the tube. This would also get the rail closer to the tube for as slim a profile as possible.
dennisuello
01-11-11, 16:01
Why is that?
I don't know, but my guess is that the slot is not mil spec.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picatinny_rail
EDIT: Upon further research, it looks like the rails with a slot cut into them would not be standard according to NATO Accessory Rail STANAG 4694 spec. New spec uses the whole top surface as mounting interface.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/67/STANAG_4694_%E2%80%9CNATO_Accessory_Rail%E2%80%9D_2.jpg
Speaking of rails, what would have been a better option is to have the add-on rails bolt directly into threaded holes in the tube. Those backing plates are a royal pain in the ass, especially if you're putting them in the middle of the tube. This would also get the rail closer to the tube for as slim a profile as possible.
I don't think that's a realistic option. Not only is the aluminum tube too thin to be threaded but you'd also have to have threaded holes at every possible location which would be cost prohibitive. Even if you could reinforce the threaded holes it would still be costly and cause unnecessary weight.
spamsammich
01-12-11, 11:07
I'm still waiting for an answer to this question.
Mounts like the Larue, ADM, and Bobro use the middle part of the rail to index and help hold the mount in place.
Slot cut down the middle of the add on rails is unacceptable.
Why is that?
One reason that leaps out to me is that some optics and the like use a bar or a shroud that goes over, say, the tensioning screw and traverses the entire width of their rail interface. We colloquially refer to this as a "recoil lug."
When the device is being mounted, one applies forward pressure to the device and closes the gap between the front of the recoil lug and the rear of the forward bar of the rail slot. Closing this gap ensures that there is no room for the device to move under recoil impulse. For devices that have a rail interface that depends on screwed or otherwise torqued-on tension to be secured, this is important because if there's a gap, recoil impulse can shake things loose and result, for example, in an optic losing its zero and perhaps eventually falling off entirely if the condition isn't detected. If the recoil lug traverses the entire width of the rail, cuts in the rail are of no impact.
Other rail interfaces, such as LaRue, just to throw out an obscure name, use recoil lugs that rest in the middle of the rail interface instead of the entire width. If one cuts gaps into the rails wide enough, there's nothing for that recoil lug to rest against. You end up relying solely on the tension applied by the rail interface of the device, without the added security of the recoil lug. I'd call that completely undesirable even for a flashlight mount, much less something I'm applying a zero to.
I freaking hate gun-vehicle analogies, but think for a moment from the standpoint of you having to lift up the front end of your car to install your bare-foot-shaped gas pedal. Are you going to rely on your parking brake, or chock the rear wheels, too, to keep the thing from crushing you?
Those cuts look pretty wide to me, so I'm also leery without having had a chance to measure anything. It's troublesome.
EDIT: Spam hit it with fewer words than I.
The top rail does not feature any cutouts.
ACOGs and magnified optics are always on an upper receiver, while you do occasionally (but very rarely) see a red dot that's on a handguard. So I personally wouldn't blow a gasket over the 3/6/9:00 accessory rails having a slot.
What I've found more unacceptable about the Samson Evolution is that it has an unbelievable amount of flex because of the tube to barrel nut interface. Even the one that they showed at SHOT did, according to my gunsmith.
Hopefully they'll fix that because Apex's system is much more rigid.
I was all set to order the Troy and then this came out. Now I'm totally unsure which way to go. Hopefully I'll get my hands on one of these soon to compare.
ACOGs and magnified optics are always on an upper receiver, while you do occasionally (but very rarely) see a red dot that's on a handguard. So I personally wouldn't blow a gasket over the 3/6/9:00 accessory rails having a slot.
What I've found more unacceptable about the Samson Evolution is that it has an unbelievable amount of flex because of the tube to barrel nut interface. Even the one that they showed at SHOT did, according to my gunsmith.
Hopefully they'll fix that because Apex's system is much more rigid.
My rail has ZERO flex.
In fact i had a muzzle device come loose a few weeks ago and i had to torque it back down with a knife blade and hand pressure. The rail didnt move a millimeter despite the fact that it was clamped between my legs and i was "herculesing" the crap out of it.
Now, im running an 11 inch ral. There is a possibility that the longer rails do exhibit some flex but ALL longer rails do to some degree.
so you have a preproduction model; do you have a connection w/ Samson? Reason I ask; are they planning on ano'ing them in any other colors than black?
Slot cut down the middle of the add on rails is unacceptable.
I've seen the rail pieces for both the vtac/samson and they appear to be very similar. I wonder if it is possible to use the rail sections from the vtac and use the samson mounts.
I saw this tube briefly last night.
I added them to the chart here (https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=0Ajl2UPK0UHPscHdzd2hlZ2hOUXNGblVaTWtaTkYyRFE&output=html)
If someone can clarify the weight issue it would be helpful. Samson's site lists the weights as including bushing, but not barrel nut, so I've added 2.0 oz. as I do for any rails which retain the stock nut.
My initial feeling is that I see zero reason to ditch a Troy TRX Extreme or VTAC Extreme for this rail/tube, but if you don't have the Troy yet it might be worth giving this one a look. Also worth noting that the next-gen Troy tubes attach to the stock barrel nut which may further reduce their weight and will obviously simplify installation for some folks.
I am somewhat interested in what I assume are the "EX" series with the FSB cutout and the extensions (although if the extensions are held on with the rail sections like they appear to be, nevermind) for access to a Switchblock.
It uses the stock barrel nut.
I saw this tube briefly last night.
I added them to the chart here (https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=0Ajl2UPK0UHPscHdzd2hlZ2hOUXNGblVaTWtaTkYyRFE&output=html)
If someone can clarify the weight issue it would be helpful. Samson's site lists the weights as including bushing, but not barrel nut, so I've added 2.0 oz. as I do for any rails which retain the stock nut.
My initial feeling is that I see zero reason to ditch a Troy TRX Extreme or VTAC Extreme for this rail/tube, but if you don't have the Troy yet it might be worth giving this one a look. Also worth noting that the next-gen Troy tubes attach to the stock barrel nut which may further reduce their weight and will obviously simplify installation for some folks.
I am somewhat interested in what I assume are the "EX" series with the FSB cutout and the extensions (although if the extensions are held on with the rail sections like they appear to be, nevermind) for access to a Switchblock.
I am somewhat interested in what I assume are the "EX" series with the FSB cutout and the extensions (although if the extensions are held on with the rail sections like they appear to be, nevermind) for access to a Switchblock.I am also interested in a FSB cutout version and I am waiting on that. Samson has stated the the EX is for the gas piston, particularly to fit the Adams Arms set ups and that the EX needs to be enlarged slightly to fit a FSB. A FSB version is supposed to be in the works.
It uses the stock barrel nut.
I understand that. My question is whether the weights posted on their site include the nut or not. I suspect not but was hoping someone with one of the rails could clarify.
Robb Jensen
02-05-11, 08:02
My rail has ZERO flex.
In fact i had a muzzle device come loose a few weeks ago and i had to torque it back down with a knife blade and hand pressure. The rail didnt move a millimeter despite the fact that it was clamped between my legs and i was "herculesing" the crap out of it.
Now, im running an 11 inch ral. There is a possibility that the longer rails do exhibit some flex but ALL longer rails do to some degree.
Interesting. The one I installed and then removed for a customer had all kinds of flex/shift. Installed as tight as I could get it without ripping the heli-coils out of the rail if I applied pressure to the muzzle end of the rail I could push it half way to the barrel side to side laterally not up and down. It wouldn't flex back and would stay in that position. I think it needs to go back to the drawing board.
I kind of wish both this rail and the Troy/VTAC models were using a steel bolt/nut setup. Instead the Heli-Coils, or whatever threaded insert they're using, machine away hexagonal regions and drop in two nuts that would sit flush in the newly made slot.
Interesting. The one I installed and then removed for a customer had all kinds of flex/shift. Installed as tight as I could get it without ripping the heli-coils out of the rail if I applied pressure to the muzzle end of the rail I could push it half way to the barrel side to side laterally not up and down. It wouldn't flex back and would stay in that position. I think it needs to go back to the drawing board.
Robb,
What length?
Its a shame, like i said, i have a pre production sample. If they changed something from the point that i got my rail to the current production model i would be disappointed as i love the rigidity of my rail.
Sample size of one sometimes sucks. :/
IMHO there's no such thing as no flex after a certain length.
13.0 Troy on a 14.5" DD lightweight barrel.
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/th_IMG_1307.jpg (http://s134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/?action=view¤t=IMG_1307.mp4)
My 13-inch VTAC has a similar amount of flex.
IMHO there's no such thing as no flex after a certain length.
13.0 Troy on a 14.5" DD lightweight barrel.
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/th_IMG_1307.jpg (http://s134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/?action=view¤t=IMG_1307.mp4)
The barrel can always flex in the rail. Ideally the rail would NOT flex.
Right?
Which begs the question, how does one verify what is flexing where?
"Flex" (or lack thereof) is something I've seen discussed here and there for years but without much discussion of how the poster checked for same.
I'm starting to not like this pinch/clamp on design, either Troy TRX or the Samson Evolution. It's not going to be very good for getting proper alignment with the receiver and keeping that alignment. I say this after installing two different Troy extremes and just not being happy with the apparent flex, and the phenomenon mentioned above about the Samson flexing and not returning. The concept of both the Samson and Troy are great, but even as a 'hobby' shooter, I prefer something more solid.
The barrel can always flex in the rail. Ideally the rail would NOT flex.
Right?
Not sure I follow. Are you saying it may be the barrel flexing inside of the rail instead of the rail itself flexing?
Not sure I follow. Are you saying it may be the barrel flexing inside of the rail instead of the rail itself flexing?
Yes.
I have yet to find a barrel that does not move in the rail. Now, im not talking extremes here but the barrels themselves are just 16 inch steel rods hanging in space.
This is the reason why free float rails gained popularity because the rail/handguard no longer influences the barrel.
With a free float setup the barrel is free to do what it will while you're cranking down on the handguard running the rifle. Free float setups also shine when you're benching the gun via bipod or improvised device. The pressure is on the rail, not the barrel.
At the end of the day im not discounting the possibility that these tubular, lightweight, affordable rails ARENT flexing. Im just saying that my sample of one (yeah i know, sample of one) isnt moving at all.
Hmm, seems I will have to reconsider my previous statement.
I just pulled my upper and stuck it in padded vise that was applying pressure to only the rail, and no other part of the rifle. I didn't want to squish the thing, but I made sure it was pretty snug. Again, only the rail was receiving contact from the vice.
This isn't very scientific, but I was trying to quickly isolate some of the components. When I was just using my hands and an unsupported upper, it was difficult to tell if it was the barrel moving or the rail moving, as neither component was fixed. There was obvious movement, but which component was more difficult to determine.
Applying pressure from various angles on the exposed forward portion of the barrel did cause a noticeable amount of deflection. From what I could tell from this little rough setup, it is indeed the barrel doing most of the movement. I noticed no movement in the rail nor the upper receiver.
Factoring in the mechanics of the materials in question, I don't believe it's possible for the rail to have 0 deflection outside of my vise setup, however it appears that the movement obvious to the eye is most attributable to the barrel.
The upper in question:
Standard BCM 16" midlength upper
Troy VTAC Extreme Battlerail (13-inch)
I apologize for this not being very rigorous, but I don't have much time to fool around with it tonight and I'm dead tired. This is just what I found, and I'm sure someone will quickly devise a much better means of isolating these components to see which is deflecting the most.
At the end of the day im not discounting the possibility that these tubular, lightweight, affordable rails ARENT flexing. Im just saying that my sample of one (yeah i know, sample of one) isnt moving at all.
But how are you checking this? and how did Robb check the one he installed? and is there some kind of agreed standard for checking deflection?
While I wish it were possible, I'm not suggesting that we dictate X barrel vice clamped to Y PSI in Z vise with Q lbs of pressure at the 3 o'clock position. But I would like to know how people are checking for flex.
ETA:
created new thread (http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=902315#post902315) to talk about flex.
Robb Jensen
02-07-11, 07:02
But how are you checking this? and how did Robb check the one he installed? and is there some kind of agreed standard for checking deflection?
While I wish it were possible, I'm not suggesting that we dictate X barrel vice clamped to Y PSI in Z vise with Q lbs of pressure at the 3 o'clock position. But I would like to know how people are checking for flex.
ETA:
created new thread (http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=902315#post902315) to talk about flex.
I pressed the barrel to the 3 o'clock side of the rail and the 9 o'clock side of the rail pressing the rail to the barrel. The rail would stay in that position. When I installed that rail I should have taken a picture of it. I could get the barrel to within about 3/16" from the side of the rail. I wouldn't call this normal. I think there was something wrong with either the fit from the two pieces that get attached to the barrel nut or the fit between those two pieces and the rail itself. So it wasn't so much rail flex as it was the parts didn't fit each other correctly. IMHO there's too much room to get something wrong there. There's probably some reason that almost all other companies making rails have the barrel nut connect directly to the rail with nothing in between them.
An Undocumented Worker
02-07-11, 20:33
sorry, posted in the wrong thread.
Birddog1911
03-08-11, 10:40
It's been 3 months, just wondering if you're impressions or feelings about this rail have changed for good or bad?
I'm really considering one of these for my BCM 14.5 middie.
Nothing new to report.
The rail is holding up just fine, ive got a couple thousand rounds on it now and it hasnt shifted, broken, been rendered inoperable by my stupidity or anything of the sort.
In fact, i havent even been able to scratch it...i guess im not trying hard enough.
For the price its very hard to beat. The only thing easier to install than this rail would be a DD omega rail and well, those dont offer the stability that these rails do, nor the desirable profile.
The only thing i would do all over again is probably go with their 12 inch offering instead of the 11. I could use another inch of rail but its not a deal breaker.
I just got my upper in with the new Samson Evo rail. I purchased it as a complete upper built off a Rainier Arms Ultramatch with a Shilen 16in barrel. No range time on it yet. But here is what I have noticed about it.
1.) Don't get confused guys about flex. Seems some of you are flexing the barrel and not the hand guard but confusing the two. The barrel will flex with pressure applied a good half inch either direction. It's just the nature of barrels. When using a hasty sling setup, I can watch the barrel flex on some non free float uppers. This is why people use free float. Now the only way to really tell if the rail is flexing is to use a vice on the upper receiver and manipulate the rail or use a sling to pull HARD and have a buddy look to see if it is moving relative to the untouched barrel.
2nd at one time I purchased an upper that had a Vikings Tactile VTAC Rail. I sent that back first day because of one reason. If I was to have the spare rails piece mounted under the gas block area it would touch the back of the rail mounting piece. This is not good for accuracy. The only way to fix this would be to grind down that backing plate. Its a BAD design flaw. This was a low profile gas block too. Now with the Samson, the rail is a slightly larger diameter so this is not an issue. There is a good 3 mm between those plates and the gasblock. I don't know what Vikings or Troy for that matter were thinking with the design its an obvious issue. Maybe my gasblock is wrong. But I doubt it. I have read others had the same issue too. So the Samson solved that for me.
Other than that, I like it a lot. Time and rounds will tell the rest of the story.
Still waiting on a notched FSP version. :)
I installed a Rainier Arms variant of the Samson last night. I chose to install it on my 9mm SBR and chose to use minimal tools rather than break out the entire tool bag, to see if it really was drop-in and to see things from the perspective of a typical buyer.
The plan is to shoot this today at the local steel match, which was the reason I bought this SBR several years ago and never got around to actually, you know, shooting it.
Before
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/9ba083c9.jpg
during (stock parts removed)
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/fee8397c.jpg
during (sacrificial parts cut away with Dremel)
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/0602f0a2.jpg
during (suppressor mount reinstalled with heat-sink mounting collars at barrel nut)
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/85a0ee90.jpg
during (you need to check alignment as you tighten the mounting screws)
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/23008401.jpg
during (tube mounted, no can)
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/d8883414.jpg
After (tube and can both mounted, ready to shoot)
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/4434fcf2.jpg
Nytcrawler93
08-28-11, 12:07
Nice pictorial, Rob.
I was very skeptical of this tube. I would NEVER have bought one on my own, as I was happy with the Troy of similar design. I would have missed out. While I can't speak for the Samson design, I can only assume that it would be at least similar.
I shot two matches today. The first was a steel match where most people shoot pistol but where you are also allowed to run pistol-caliber carbines. I chose to run this carbine. It's very simple, 5 stages ~5 rounds each, shot 5 times each. That's about 125 rounds. Then I stayed on for another match, this one a carbine steel match, where I used the same gun, and fired around another 100 rounds.
This tube has an OD of 1.80" compared to the Troy at 1.74". I would not have thought that the 0.06" would have been even perceptible but it is, and I prefer the larger tube OD. However, for comparison, I find the 1.90" OD of the JP tube to be too large. With the larger OD comes a larger ID of 1.56" so even a 1.50" OD centerfire rifle-caliber can should fit inside. In my case I'm using a 1.25" OD 9mm can with plenty of room.
I'm looking forward to running this gun in this setup at the same match(es) next month. I may look into shortening the barrel, and I'm definitely going to see about adding a hand-stop at the booger-picker location I prefer for such things.
The_Hammer_Man
11-04-11, 20:39
Like Rob_S I was very sceptical of the Samson Evolution rail. Wouldn't have bought one for myself for love nor money. And to be honest, I've not been a great fan of the Troy/Vtac tubes either.
Why? Two words.... friction fit. Those two words together are kind of a gunsmiths oxymoron IMHO.
Had a customer, a local LEO who works in my states capital building, insist on this rail for his new "work upper".
I take it all back... this thing is nearly as solid as a standard threaded nut style free float tube. Like everyone else who's posted I was seriously concerned about the barrel nut fit and tube flex.
No problem either way. And, as an added benefit to the professional gunsmith... its a FAST install. It took me about 11 minutes to install it from opening the box to finish tightening the bolts.
Damned good product!
Nightvisionary
11-05-11, 22:08
Im not too happy with Samson right now or Brownells for that matter.
I ordered the Samson Evolution 12.37 rail from Brownells last month for a 6x45 build I intend to use on a hunting trip on the 12th. It was listed as an in stock/drop shipped item. Brownells tells me it it shipped on October 25th but they have not recieved tracking info from Samson.
I called Samson's 1-888 and local number several times during their listed business hours on Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday to find out if my Evolution had shipped or was even in stock. Not only did no one at Samson answer the phone Samson does not even have voice mail or an answering machine to let customers and vendors know they are still operating as a business. The special order desk at Brownells can't get a hold of them either.
I cancelled my order Friday because even if it arrives by UPS monday which I have no reason to believe it will, I won't have enough time to build the upper and work up loads by the 12th. Brownells already charged my card and now they won't credit my account until they can get order status info from Samson who apparantly does not have a working telephone.
Definitley not a good sign for a buyer who might need warranty service at some point.
Interesting. The one I installed and then removed for a customer had all kinds of flex/shift. Installed as tight as I could get it without ripping the heli-coils out of the rail if I applied pressure to the muzzle end of the rail I could push it half way to the barrel side to side laterally not up and down. It wouldn't flex back and would stay in that position. I think it needs to go back to the drawing board.
Sorry to dredge up an old portion of this thread, but I had the same issue with the 12 inch Evolution I installed on a PSA middie with shaved FSB. I discovered the two pieces of the heat sink are not interchangeable. I reversed them on the barrel nut, reinstalled the handguard, and tightened it up. It's now rock solid.
Robb Jensen
11-06-11, 08:59
Sorry to dredge up an old portion of this thread, but I had the same issue with the 12 inch Evolution I installed on a PSA middie with shaved FSB. I discovered the two pieces of the heat sink are not interchangeable. I reversed them on the barrel nut, reinstalled the handguard, and tightened it up. It's now rock solid.
I've found this to be true also. I have a Rainier (Samson made) rail and installed it one way and then the other way and it was much tighter.
just a scout
11-06-11, 19:35
I have one on my BCM 16" and love it. When I was installing it, I had a problem sliding it on the collar. Then I looked at the instructions for the first time, saw I had it upside down. Corrected it, rail slid on on like it was made for it and nary a problem since. Except for heating up quickly with long strings.
OP mentioned that the preproduction model did not allow "shotgunning" due to interference from clamping block.
Is this still the case with the production version?
Am very interested in the 12" Ranier vesion, to replace an 11" Noveske SWS. Want to save some weight; guess it would save around 5 oz. Is that a reasonable assumption?
Thanks for any feedback.
Mark
So far I have put about 300rds thru my LWRC M6A2 upper with the Rainier/Samson rail installed and have no issues with the rail slipping and it feels alot better in my medium-sized hands than the OEM 9" unit. I like the extra reach offered by the 12.3x" rail and it is a winner...
Stan
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa10/uspopo/stanlwrc3.jpg
Rob, thm, jas, uspopo: is there enough limitation to shotgunning to make it a major issue?
Thanks,
Mark
OP mentioned that the preproduction model did not allow "shotgunning" due to interference from clamping block.
Is this still the case with the production version?
Am very interested in the 12" Ranier vesion, to replace an 11" Noveske SWS. Want to save some weight; guess it would save around 5 oz. Is that a reasonable assumption?
Thanks for any feedback.
Mark
The bottom of the clamping block contacts the front of the lower if you swing it out wide enough, but there is ample room to shotgun it open for cleaning and PM. I guesstimate you can get about 85 degrees of swing before contact is made.
Thanks, Eric.
I currently have 90 degrees with the SWS system, so it doesn't sound like much of a difference. Maybe I can sell the Noveske marked SWS for the price of the Ranier Evolution...
Mark
Just to confirm.
The production version has changed to allow almost a full range of motion on the upper during takedown.
Thanks for the info, Magz. Think I know what my Chanuka gift to myself is going to be.
Mark
Shoulderthinggoesup
11-14-11, 11:31
Nice rifle USpopo!
Just to post some feedback. I ended up selling my samson evo rail system because no matter what I did, the rail kept on sliding off the barrel nut. When I was bench firing the recoil would cause the rail to walk forward. Within 50 rounds there would be at least a 3mm gap. It was so bad that I would always have to keep a allen wrench handy to reseat it. Which would mean it would always throw off my irons. I am not sure if they fixed this issue on newer models. I purchased mine way back in march, before Rainier even released theirs. Just wondering if others ended up having the same issue. I replaced it with a troy and never got that walking issue again.
AGENT TIKKI
11-25-11, 17:49
This the max angle at which you can shot gun the upper.
http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee366/AgentTikki/RUCMAXPIVOT.jpg
Nightvisionary
11-26-11, 17:44
Just to post some feedback. I ended up selling my samson evo rail system because no matter what I did, the rail kept on sliding off the barrel nut. When I was bench firing the recoil would cause the rail to walk forward. Within 50 rounds there would be at least a 3mm gap. It was so bad that I would always have to keep a allen wrench handy to reseat it. Which would mean it would always throw off my irons. I am not sure if they fixed this issue on newer models. I purchased mine way back in march, before Rainier even released theirs. Just wondering if others ended up having the same issue. I replaced it with a troy and never got that walking issue again.
I would bet money you had the heat sink installed backwards. I read elsewhere of users reporting issues with loose handguards until they read the instructions closely and re-installed the heat sink properly.
The_Hammer_Man
11-27-11, 03:56
I would bet money you had the heat sink installed backwards. I read elsewhere of users reporting issues with loose handguards until they read the instructions closely and re-installed the heat sink properly.
+1 and ditto to boot on this.
IF you install the heat sink incorrectly ( ie,, backwards!) it will not lock down properly.
Thankfully it's an easy fix.
Can anyone report on the heat management of these handguards compared to the Troy VTAC handguards?
-B
Can anyone report on the heat management of these handguards compared to the Troy VTAC handguards?
-B
They get hot.
Due to the larger diameter of the guard itself and the further distance from the FSB plus the heat sink you will most likely see better heat dissipation on the Samson unit but this is pure speculation as i am unwilling to sit at the range with a thermometer and take surface temperature readings.
If you're blasting that much down range you're going to have to run a glove with either brand.
I would bet money you had the heat sink installed backwards. I read elsewhere of users reporting issues with loose handguards until they read the instructions closely and re-installed the heat sink properly.
That would be a no, I had it installed correctly. Exactly the same way as the person a few pages back with the 9mm AR. I really wanted to like the Evo rail. It was larger and fit into my hands just right. But the lack of some form of lock other than a friction lock just did not work out in reality. Which from day 1 I had issues. I shotgunned the weapon, that pushed the rail forward. Tightened the crap out of it, that helped a little. Then I went to the range with my grip pod on (I know you all think they suck) and the recoil action just kept on moving the rail. It would creep after 50 rounds. I attribute this to the fact that there is no lip or edge. Just the clamping pressure of T6 aluminum (which is pretty soft grade).
Samson should really make a hybrid locking mechanism a mix between their split bushing and the locking mechanism from Troy.
Nyco,
Did you return the rail to Samson and ask for a replacement?
So far you're the first person that ive heard that has had this issue with the rail design.
The rest of us are having no issues whatsoever.
With the amount of time, effort, waiting and cost of shipping, I thought it was just a waste of time. Shipping the upper back alone, was going to cost me 20 bucks out of pocket. So I sold it rather than deal with that hassle. I only posted it to see if others had the same issue.
Nightvisionary
11-27-11, 19:41
That would be a no, I had it installed correctly. Exactly the same way as the person a few pages back with the 9mm AR. I really wanted to like the Evo rail. It was larger and fit into my hands just right. But the lack of some form of lock other than a friction lock just did not work out in reality.
If you are not paying close attention it is easy to install the heat sink/bushing incorrectly. At first glance an incorrect installation looks just like a correct install as pictured on the 9mm AR.
My Samson Evolution only has a couple hundred rounds through it but it suffered through a 5 day Elk hunting trip in the Oregon coast range under terrain and weather conditions that are known to make or break equipment. It's rock solid.
The Samson MFG instructions ( http://www.samson-mfg.com/manuals/Instructions%20for%20installation%20of%20Samson%20Evolution%20Series.pdf ) are not very clear so I watched a couple of videos before installing mine to make sure I did it right. Here are some clarifications and additions I made to the Samson instructions:
http://i42.tinypic.com/nxmfx0.jpg
Perhaps I had it backwards. I really don't know. It looked the same to me. To me the rail performed fine until I put a bipod/grip pod on it. If you get a chance to test it that way, let me know. If there really is a difference like you and the picture says, I really wish that Samson had made that part stupid proof. Because etching a label or a notch might have saved me as a user/customer.
This one runs cool enough for the wife to shoot all day:
just a scout
12-29-11, 16:21
Mine gets uncomfortable after about 50-100 rounds, but cools pretty quickly. It gets hot if I hammer it, warm if just doing drills and strings. But with Mechanix thin gloves, I'm fine. And like I said, it cools done pretty quickly.
I really like the look of this rail and am strongly considering it for my current build. I considered the possibility of a DD lite rail and then was leaning towards a centurion arms C4 but i cant justify the cost as i dont really need all the "railestate", all that space would likely go unused. I like the look of the Sampson rail a lot but I also had my concerns of it's mounting system in terms of "lock-up".
I certainly have tried to find as many user reviews as possible on this product and I must say I have found no real negative feedback. Between Magsz's review, a vuurwappen blog review(rainier arms version)and one from an arfcom member, it looks like this handguard is just what im looking for and it seems to be rather solid and priced right. Also, I'm not really concerned with forward movement(if installed correctly it appears as that won't happen)as im going to have a pinned FSB in front of it.
Jet, there is very little to dislike about the rail. I think you will dig it if you do end up picking one up as it has very few disadvantages and a whole lot of advantages for the modern civilian shooter.
As an aside, i just installed another one of these on a 20 inch PSA upper and the install was a breeze, rail locks up tight and is solid as can be.
I will try and get some pictures in a week or so.
I finally swapped out the barrel on my 9mm. I haven't had a chance to shoot it with the shorter barrel but I like the handling of it much better already.
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/weights/IMG_2587.jpg
Hey Rob,
Do you plan to run forend naked, or add hand stop such as IWC or AFG? Based mostly on your positive comments, ordered one of the Evo's :)
Thanks,
Mark
Hey Rob,
Do you plan to run forend naked, or add hand stop such as IWC or AFG? Based mostly on your positive comments, ordered one of the Evo's :)
Thanks,
Mark
I need about three IWCs right now, one for this and two for other projects. When it comes I'll attach it forward, and hook it with my booger-picker, not rearward and try to press the meat of my hand into it.
like this here, but with support hand out a little further (click for video)
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/EAG%202010/th_IMG_0916.jpg (http://s134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/EAG%202010/?action=view¤t=IMG_0916.mp4)
Not knocking IWC, but I hope GS puts out their hand stop curved to fit a cylindrical handguard. The profile on the GS is perfect IMO. I have an IWC and it feels different when doing the finger hook stylee...
Not knocking IWC, but I hope GS puts out their hand stop curved to fit a cylindrical handguard. The profile on the GS is perfect IMO. I have an IWC and it feels different when doing the finger hook stylee...
I haven't used the IWC this way yet, only the Gear Sector. They are obviously differently profiled from the pics I've seen. But I DON'T want to mount a rail section to any of these. Defeats the purpose IMO and adds an extra failure point to the system.
Gear Sector
http://www.gearsector.com/img/product/29714095e302b0749896f59a2be23452.jpg
IWC
http://www.impactweaponscomponents.com/static/images/productimage-picture-weapon-control-mount-108_jpg_280x280_q85.jpg
Will try the IWC your way. Interesting how you moved the folding front sight back, to make room for thumb over HG. May try that too, as I currently rest thumb on my folded sight. Sight pulled back looks funny, but makes sense.
Agree with keeping it simple; less screws to loosen, lighter too.
Thanks,
Mark
Winston Wolf
01-07-12, 11:58
Great info here gents, thank you all.
I've been running a 12.37" EVO on my AR for about five months. Ran it through a number of advanced classes and it has held up and performed without a hitch.
Heat is always an issue with high volume of fire and my rifle still gets hot. (I wear gloves) That being said, it doesn't get any hotter than the stock rail (9") that came with it and it definitely cools down a lot faster. I've never really been a fan of Samson, but I really like this rail. I initially bought it because, at the time, TRX rails were backordered everywhere I looked, so I went for the EVO.
My SI has a 15" TRX and is very happy with it. Personally, I could care less who makes my rail as long as it stays put, is rock solid and does what I need it to do.
I was pleasantly surprised at the EVO's performance and design and would recommend it to anyone, if asked. Great rail.
My $.02
-WW
Will try the IWC your way. Interesting how you moved the folding front sight back, to make room for thumb over HG. May try that too, as I currently rest thumb on my folded sight. Sight pulled back looks funny, but makes sense.
Agree with keeping it simple; less screws to loosen, lighter too.
Thanks,
Mark
FWIW, that's really to make room for the X300, or it was at first. The thumb thing was a happy coincidence.
Just curiuos; is it comfortable having thumb over x300?
I ask because I run a tlr which is stream light's version of x300, at 0300 and forward, to keep it out of way. 1200 makes more sense as it's equally accessible to both hands for activation, but is it comfortable with support hand at end of HG?
Thanks
Mark
Just curiuos; is it comfortable having thumb over x300?
I ask because I run a tlr which is stream light's version of x300, at 0300 and forward, to keep it out of way. 1200 makes more sense as it's equally accessible to both hands for activation, but is it comfortable with support hand at end of HG?
Thanks
Mark
Thumb doesn't go over, X300, goes behind it.
Thanks. Will experiment when EVO arrives.
Mark
Leonidas24
01-23-12, 13:42
Met up with a forum member about 3 weeks ago and got to lay my meat hooks on the 11" evo. Love it. I'm looking at getting the Rainier Arms version as soon as it's back in stock.
My one stipulation for that version is whether or not it will mount rails at 45 degree offsets like the original. i.e. 2:30, 10:30, etc. They also need to lock up as solidly as can be. It'll be bearing a Surefire Scout light on my SBR.
Finally got to shoot my 16" middy with the Ranier Arms evo (12").
Feels great and I like the balance compared to previous setup, with SWS quad rail. Wanted lighter weight and smaller profile and got it. Amazingly it only took one click of windage adjustment to zero my BUIS at 50 yards. Elevation was spot on. Speaks highly to Samson's attention to detail, as I had changed from monster SWS barrel nut to mil spec one. Rail seems stiff enough and I appreciate not having to spend extra money for front QD point and small base for light. Used a Uncle Mike's QD stud on bottom for bipod attachment point, useful for zeroing scope or long range shooting. Heat buildup with moderate rate of fire was unnoticeable, and I like that gas block was covered. Burned a finger tip previously with one inch shorter handguard.
Worth long (six weeks) wait!
Mark
I have the 13.27 rainier version on a custom billet upper with ultramatch barrel. I've found no signs of flex what so ever and with how heavy the front end is already I appreciate the weight savings.
As to a posters' question a few back I do not believe that with the rainier version you can mount to the positions in between the 12, 3, 6, and 9 positions. As I look at my rifle it seems that the top, sides, and bottom are the only places on the fore end that will accept rail sections.
My son is thinking about putting one of the 12.37" rails on his BCM 16" middy. Does anyone have a good picture of one of these installed?
Also he wants to put a Harris bipod on it, which mount is recommended that won't break the bank?
My son is thinking about putting one of the 12.37" rails on his BCM 16" middy. Does anyone have a good picture of one of these installed?
Also he wants to put a Harris bipod on it, which mount is recommended that won't break the bank?
I went with a QD machined screw item, available from Brownells or other vendors, with a washer and nut on the inside of the handguard. Very inexpensive and low profile. It replaced my quick detach gizmo which was pretty bulky and expensive. Believe it was this one: http://www.brownells.com/shooting-accessories/slings-sling-swivels/sling-swivel-studs/bipod-sling-stud-for-customizable-tube-prod42172.aspx
Mark
theblackknight
11-17-12, 15:57
Just ordered the rainier version. Looking forward to grinding my fsb down and cutting the slip ring means I dont have to buy a wrench or punch any pins.
As for the heat, has anyone used foil or something? I have no reason to wear gloves anymore.
I used the Rainier Arms version in 9.0 to build my 300 BLK wit 10" barrel. I also put some together for someone in Texas using the 11" version (IIRC) and they seem like a pretty good rail for the money.
One thing for sure is that they are super light.
I won a 15" Samson at the Blue Ridge Mountain 3-gun. I never paid much attention to them up till walking up to the prize table and grabbing it. I replaced the 13" TRX I had on my 3-gun rifle with it and am very impressed. I was a little concern with the weight and balance being 2 inches longer but noticed nothing negative. The extra length also helps to cover up the 18" Noveske barrel....
SurplusShooter
02-09-14, 22:02
I know this thread is old, but this is the thread for it:
Does OP (or anyone else) have any update after long-term use on the Samson Evolution rail? Still using it? Still holding strong?
I have been using the Samson evo rails since they became available. No issues to this point and I don't expect any. I also have what is one of the first Samson 308 rails on a Smith M&P10. It fit right up and feels great (no trigger time on the gun just yet however). Highly recommended.
Using the 12.3" Ranier version of Sampson Evo. Solid, a little warm but cools off quickly. No regrets.
Rainier Arms Evo rail user for almost two years now. No issues to report. Light, solid, affordable and looks good.
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S4
BufordTJustice
02-12-14, 12:12
Just built a new patrol upper using the RA 15" Evo version. Very pleased. If the BCM KMR 13" weren't fully HALF the weight, I would be perfectly happy with the Evo as it is one of the lightest 15" rails I currently know of.
But weight savings is an issue for me (trying to offset the addition of a light), so a KMR is in my future. Regardless, I am very pleased and impressed with the Evo for the money. It is very light (especially in the shorter lengths) and remains a quiet bargain.
I chose the EVO EX version for a 10.5" rifle. I wanted a tube type rail that extended beyond the fixed FSB and the EX fits that use with some modification of the FSB. I have since installed 4 others for the same type of set up. I very much like mine and so do the others running them.
evoutfitters
02-12-14, 15:09
The 12-EX (http://www.eaglevalleyoutfitters.com/samson/samson-evolution-12-in-ex-ff-blk-14314) works really well on rifle-length builds...
http://evpics.com/evo/samsonevo12fsp_500px.jpg (http://www.eaglevalleyoutfitters.com/samson/samson-evolution-12-in-ex-ff-blk-14314)
SurplusShooter
02-16-14, 11:16
I just installed one of these Samson rails on a rifle and it went fine. Just need some attention to detail on the orientation of the Thermal bushings.
I weighed before & after, and if you are replacing a set of Magpul Midlength handguards then your net gain is only a couple of ounces.
BrigandTwoFour
02-16-14, 13:39
I've been running a Rainier-flavored 12.3" Evo for a bit over a year now on my general purpose carbine turned quasi-recce. It's as solid as anything else I've ever handled. Easy install, sturdy lockup, and a nice price point are all working in its favor.
The Evo-EX model certainly has my attention for a 20" project.
Just ordered the 9ex for my 14.5 mid.
Anyone know if the MI Gen2 SS panels will work for the Samson?
https://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=450
Rayrevolver
04-22-14, 11:36
I was looking for a 12.37" Evo (or any Evo 12" or greater) but found a used 15" for a great deal. After I pulled the trigger I realized it was going a 14.5" upper with a perm'd comp. This 14.5" actually measures at 14.8" and I am hoping I don't blow it up like that one guy did with a Fortis.
It should be here in a few days. Pics to follow, and if it looks close I am not going to shoot it. Maybe look to trade with one of you guys looking for more real estate.
Rayrevolver
04-24-14, 20:56
Samson Evo 15 rail, Rainier Match 14.5" mid-length, Rainier XTC Comp perm'd <- the reason I am sticking with a stock barrel nut.
Almost made it...
254042540525406
I don't plan to shoot it as is. This Evo locks up much nicer than the Troy Alpha 11 that I sold off.
I could probably hog out 2 cuts and run it, the overlap is not too bad. Plan for this rifle is a mini-spr I suppose. I have never owned a bipod or scope greater than 3x and at some point this will get both.
Look out for a WTT ad, I will most likely trade this straight up for a Evo 12 or 12.37.
That's a lotta rail. I'd just modify it a tad.
Mine came today. Headed to ATEi on Tuesday to install it. Barrel has to be removed and I don't have the tools.
2541125412
Trying to decide to strip the rifle back to black or let it ride...
It's tapatalk's fault.
UPDATE:
I ended up getting my rail installed and noticed a couple weeks later that there was a crack in the rail. (See pics below)
I called Samson and they gave me an RMA number. Sent the tube in and had a replacement back in one week exactly.
Samson even tossed in an extra accessory rail section.
New rail is re-installed and looks great.
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7427/13922869690_88cd5cbaa1_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/ndjm6q)
On the Fence (https://flic.kr/p/ndjm6q) by pyzik200 (https://www.flickr.com/people//), on Flickr
Cracked section:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-FwofvPllIVY/U3j7-eWzi2I/AAAAAAAABgM/mnJFDkqgcGw/w868-h577-no/DSC_0334.JPG
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-NlRJemYi2XE/U3j8K3Wea1I/AAAAAAAABgc/716kcd_bf1M/w868-h577-no/DSC_0338.JPG
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-pvh4EfkKWN8/U3j8J0x_dnI/AAAAAAAABgU/CQ-uQow9bFs/w868-h577-no/DSC_0337.JPG
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-uwh-VWFGUr8/U3j8Nyxhx6I/AAAAAAAABgk/tLqmDRT-wCA/w868-h577-no/DSC_0339.JPG
Samson-Pro
06-12-14, 10:10
Thanks for the kind words!
Thanks for the kind words!
Thank you for all your help and awesome customer service.
I've got a pistol build in the works and a Samson rail will adorn it!
Samson-Pro
06-12-14, 10:34
Outstanding!
pyzik / samson,
What do we think caused this cracking? Heat from the front post/gas block, stress of the rail at the cutout, or just simply a defect? Good on you samson for standing behind your product!
Samson-Pro
06-12-14, 14:10
My guess would be a defect in the extrusion process. We have seen extreme heat exposures on piston guns for some time with shrouded rails as well as suppressors. Never proved to be a problem in that area. The only other time I have seen it is when the rails partially obstructs the blast area of a comp/brake. We always make every effort to take care of people period. There is no return policy here. It goes like this, you have a problem we fix it, the end. We even replace rails for people who admit they installed their thermal bushings on upside down and cracked the clamp ears.
That would be my guess as well just wanted to hear your take. I have a 12" Rainier Arms Evolution on my 14.5" middy and am using a 15" RA Evo-Keymod on my 16" middy build. Glad to hear that if I ever have a issue that I'm taken care of.
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