View Full Version : Need a more concealable method/pistol.
RancidSumo
12-12-10, 23:07
I do not carry yet (not old enough) but when I do, part of the time it is going to have to be in a manner in which there is NO chance of it being seen. In all times but the one I'm trying to sort out now I'll be carrying my M&P9 in an OWB holster but some of the time that simply wont work.
What I'm looking for is a pistol that I can carry most likely in my pocket. I believe this is the method in which I'll be able to conceal most effectively, even though it won't be with the most ideal pistol. So i guess this comes down to two questions,
1. What pistol should I look at?
2. Is there a better method of carry when you absolutely cannot be found out?
For the pistol, I've been looking at these three options so far-
Smith and Wesson Bodyguard .380
Smith and Wesson J Frame
Sig P232 .380
Are there any others I should look at? What would you choose for pocket carry or for whatever method of carry you recommend?
snakedoctor
12-12-10, 23:27
M&P Compact in a Milt Sparks VMII.
Have you considered appendix carry?
RancidSumo
12-12-10, 23:40
Actually yes I have. Do you feel it offers a high enough level of concealment?
Actually yes I have. Do you feel it offers a high enough level of concealment?
I dont carry this way, but I have seen guys hide an HK45 and I could not tell even though I knew he was carrying.
If I may I would suggest a service caliber. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't like to stand in front of someone shooting a 380 at me but when I can have a 9mm for almost the same size in a Kel-tec PF9 or a Kahr PM9 than I'm all over it. I can't tell you how lonely my M&P 9c must be after I started pocket carrying my PF9. I wear dress pants and polo shirts every day and I can NOT risk a client seeing me carry! The PF9 in the pocket has been my carry solution (I still want a PM9 very badly!)! YMMV
a glock 26 or M&P compact in a smart carry or thunderwear is invisible.
stick to a shorter slide gun for this. actually works awesome with an HK p7 as well.
downside-slow draw.
when you say it has to be invisible, this is THE method though. the only way anyone will see the gun is if you take your pants off.
RancidSumo
12-12-10, 23:54
Sounds like something I should look more into (both of the last two posters suggestions). Thanks
ETA, three things I need to check out now, thanks. skyugo, you go to school here in CO right?
RogueElephant
12-13-10, 07:23
Here's a link to the SmartCarry skyugo suggested:
http://www.smartcarry.com/products.html
skyugo is right, if concealment is the priority, you can't do better than the SmartCarry. Once you accept the idea of carrying "there," it actually works better than you might think.
For ME the most important criteria for the conceal-ability of a gun are thickness and weight, barrel length being less important. After trying a bunch of stuff, I have settled on a Kahr P9 or S&W 637, depending on dress and carry method at the time.
So many choices...
Complication
12-13-10, 08:26
I dont carry this way, but I have seen guys hide an HK45 and I could not tell even though I knew he was carrying.
If you're got a big upper body (whether it's muscle or fat or big bones), appendix carry can work, and it can work REALLY well. If you're scrawny and tall and almost lanky, appendix carry can be one of the least concealable and most uncomfortable carry positions, however.
If you're got a big upper body (whether it's muscle or fat or big bones), appendix carry can work, and it can work REALLY well. If you're scrawny and tall and almost lanky, appendix carry can be one of the least concealable and most uncomfortable carry positions, however.
Correct, not all of us are built for it, nor are the risks associated something that everyone should consider, but it is a damned good option for those who employ it.
Complication
12-13-10, 08:31
Agreed.
If you're got a big upper body (whether it's muscle or fat or big bones), appendix carry can work, and it can work REALLY well. If you're scrawny and tall and almost lanky, appendix carry can be one of the least concealable and most uncomfortable carry positions, however.
So far my attempts to AIWB have not been successful.
As for the OP's question I would look at a few guns; a Ruger LCR or S&W 442/642 for "pocket" carry or a G19 or G26 for IWB carry. In my experience the G19 or G26 will be narrower than a M&P9c. I often forget I'm carrying my G26 and have very little trouble concealing my G19 (which is what I carry most often).
I'm not a big guy either, 5'5" & 130lbs so I don't have the mass to hide a gun but with the right holsters, belt and a slight modification to my attire can easily carry my G19 on the strong side and often add my Ruger LCR to my weak side front pocket.
In the warmer months I mostly carry my G26 in a CCC Looper (4 o'clock position) wearing only shorts and a t-shirt.
Of course everyone is different so expect to experiment some. This is just what works for me.
Kahr MK9 @ 3:30, in a milt sparks SS2. although i need to upgrade my holster.
a glock 26 or M&P compact in a smart carry or thunderwear is invisible.
stick to a shorter slide gun for this. actually works awesome with an HK p7 as well.
downside-slow draw.
when you say it has to be invisible, this is THE method though. the only way anyone will see the gun is if you take your pants off.
How comfortable is Thunderwear when you're sitting? I carry a M&P9fs... I use an MTAC and it works well but sometimes not practical.
Not to pry, but can you give us some insight into why you can't get busted? If it's a situation that can't be handled by presenting a valid concealed carry permit, maybe you should consider a different approach...
Okie John
How comfortable is Thunderwear when you're sitting? I carry a M&P9fs... I use an MTAC and it works well but sometimes not practical.
Surprisingly comfortable. Personally, I found that the 9C conceals much better and is more comfortable, but both are doable.
RancidSumo
12-13-10, 10:20
Not to pry, but can you give us some insight into why you can't get busted? If it's a situation that can't be handled by presenting a valid concealed carry permit, maybe you should consider a different approach...
Okie John
It is not a legal issue, more along the lines of losing a job. Not exactly but thats close enough to my situation to explain it I think.
John_Wayne777
12-13-10, 12:21
Actually yes I have. Do you feel it offers a high enough level of concealment?
AIWB carry does offer a great level of concealment. Generally even small guys can conceal huge handguns with AIWB because it places the pistol at the widest portion of your body, reducing printing to nil.
...but there are safety concerns that go along with AIWB that you should consider every bit as carefully as you would the decision to pick up a live cobra.
I carry AIWB 99% of the time now and with the right holster it's a great way to conceal a handgun. It is highly dependent upon the holster and the positioning of the holster.
The safety concerns with reholstering using an AIWB prompted me to change from an M&P to an H&K P30 so I could use my thumb to control the hammer.
J frames are one of my favorite carry options primarily as a BUG, but when loaded properly they will also serve as a sufficient primary for those occasions when your choices are a J frame or fingernails. J frames also seem to work very well carried AIWB and with their heavy trigger are generally one of the safer options for that style of carry. The J frame is one of the most versatile carry guns ever invented...it would be hard to go wrong with one. We've had some excellent discussions about J frames in the past. I would encourage you to use the search function to take a look at some of those threads for more information about them.
If I HAD to carry something in a pocket, I'd do a 642 or LCP in a pocket holster. A 642 or G26 AIWB is for most purposes invisible and more comfortable as well.
Thunderwear is probably your best deep cover solution. Have one and it is fairly comfortable if the weapon is not too large. Put a larger weapon in it and you best be careful sitting down quickly...
Although Thunderwear is advertised to carry larger weapons, a J-frame or LCP/Keltec is my comfort range. I have a Kahr PM-9 and it'll carry it in a pinch (see above remark about sitting quickly).
I've found that, especially IWB, anything with a double stack magazine just doesn't work for me - too thick - so I gave up on the Glock and M&P compacts (didn't really like the grips anyway). I ultimately went with a Walther PPS for concealment during the 4-5 months of light clothing weather here, simply because it's single stack and very flat/thin. A buddy has a Kahr, which is about the same, but I liked the Walther better and have found it to feed better. My wife also carries a PPS in 9mm. She's very slim and just can't hide a bigger pistol given her size and the style of clothing she wears. She won't wear IWB, carries OWB if she carries at all. Pretty much as easy for her to conceal the PPS as the Mustang .380 she used to carry.
http://www.pbase.com/hmac/image/125884589.jpg
How comfortable is Thunderwear when you're sitting? I carry a M&P9fs... I use an MTAC and it works well but sometimes not practical.
it's nto bad with as short slide gun, G26 or p7 is all i've tried. Helps if you're average or thin rather than of a huskier build.
I wouldn't try an M&P fs in a smartcarry, it can be done sure, but i think comfort will suffer badly.
Beat Trash
12-13-10, 17:17
It really depends on your body size, build, and level of dedication you have.
I pocket carry at times. Depending on the pocket, I use a Glock 26 in a kydex FIST pocket holster, a Kahr PM9 in an Uncle Mikes pocket holster, or a S&W 642 in a Uncle Mikes pocket holster.
I only pocket carry about 5% of the time.
I'm about 5'11", about 180. I do a lot of upper body work and I'm a runner. I have a 30-31" waist. AIWB doesn't work so well for me.
I carry IWB over my strong side kidney, about 4 o'clock or so. I have been using a Blade-Tec UCH tuckable IWB holster since about 2001 or so. I can carry my Glock 19 for hours on end with this setup.
Unfortunately when my agency switched from the POS S&W 5946 to the excellent M&P 9mm, I ordered another Blade-tec Uch holster for the M&P. Apparently Blade-tec changed the design and the materials. I'm really disappointed with the newer holster.
Glocks are a tad thinner than the M&P in the slide area. The walther PPS would be a good IWB gun for this reason.
I've been CCWing for a lot of years. Couple of things for the OP to consider.
First: When I first started carrying, I thought everyone would be able to spot the J-frame I was carrying, as it was too big. I discovered in time that with a proper holster, you'd be surprised at the size of gun you can effective conceal. Your M&P can be done. A M&P9c would be a bit easier.
Do not compromise perceived ability to conceal for the ability to effectively shoot the gun.
Second: A good belt is vital. There are several companies that make a belt stiff enough to support the gun without looking like a gunbelt. They can be costly, but are worth it. The best holster will print like a SOB if only supported by a flimsy POS belt and allowed to bounce around and shift.
I use two belts. One is horsehide made by Kramer. The other is cowhide made by Mitch Rosen. Both cost come coin, but the newest one is about 15 years old. I have used these every day. Re-dye with shoe dye about every 18 months or so, good as new.
RancidSumo
12-13-10, 20:46
I've seen several posts saying it has to do with how I'm built so I'll just post that.
I'm 6'3", 210, with a 32-34 in waist depending on the brand/cut.
dookie1481
12-13-10, 21:06
I've seen several posts saying it has to do with how I'm built so I'll just post that.
I'm 6'3", 210, with a 32-34 in waist depending on the brand/cut.
For reference, I am 5'5", 160, ~33" waist (a little gut) and I conceal a FS M&P with no problem. I think an M&Pc or something a little smaller would disappear on you.
Jay
I've seen several posts saying it has to do with how I'm built so I'll just post that.
I'm 6'3", 210, with a 32-34 in waist depending on the brand/cut.
with any luck mines will allow CCW by the time you're 21 :)
RancidSumo
12-14-10, 00:15
with any luck mines will allow CCW by the time you're 21 :)
I would think legally they would have to. Wasn't that the case at other public schools in the state?
I would think legally they would have to. Wasn't that the case at other public schools in the state?
is mines public?
i carry at CSU every day. :)
to elaborate on that point, i generally carry a p7, IWB at 3 o clock, with either a t-shirt or a button down. No one has made me. I even had a kid bump into my gun during a lab when i was bent over pouring something. No clue. Most people just don't expect it. Even from me and my maxpedition pack.
RancidSumo
12-14-10, 01:01
Yes it is a public university. I haven't actually read exactly why CSU had to allow it but I probably should.
Yes it is a public university. I haven't actually read exactly why CSU had to allow it but I probably should.
very possible that mines doesn't have a leg to stand on.
i've used the smart carry in instances in which i could not get caught, daily, with no issues at all.
what ya goin for anyway man?
I know a dude who dropped outta mines at CSU. sounds like a tough place. Keep hittin the books. don't want to end up like my old ass trying to keep up with the bills going to college.
RancidSumo
12-14-10, 01:32
very possible that mines doesn't have a leg to stand on.
i've used the smart carry in instances in which i could not get caught, daily, with no issues at all.
what ya goin for anyway man?
I know a dude who dropped outta mines at CSU. sounds like a tough place. Keep hittin the books. don't want to end up like my old ass trying to keep up with the bills going to college.
I hope they don't and I'll look into it over the next couple years and possibly bring it up with the administration if it looks like they should be legally required to allow it.
I'm not really sure what I'll major in yet. As of now I'm thinking geophysics. Its definitely tough, I've got my last final tomorrow and I managed to pass all my classes this semester no matter what I get tomorrow. It was a real wake up call coming from high school where I got straight A's with no effort to coming here and getting my ass kicked by classes I expected to be easy. I had to pick up study skills quick to keep up and barely did in time this semester.
I go through Ft. Collins every two weeks on my way home. Maybe one of these days we will have to get together for some range time.
Alpha Sierra
12-14-10, 03:55
I've seen several posts saying it has to do with how I'm built so I'll just post that.
I'm 6'3", 210, with a 32-34 in waist depending on the brand/cut.
I'm not sure how you would have a hard time concealing anything.
RogueElephant
12-14-10, 06:44
I would think legally they would have to. Wasn't that the case at other public schools in the state?
Though I do not know if an appeal has been filed or, if so, what the status of that appeal might be, this is the finding of the Colorado Court of Appeals on whether or not concealed carry applies to universities:
http://www.courts.state.co.us/Courts/Court_of_Appeals/opinion/2010/09CA1230.pdf
If anybody has more recent information, I would be interested. My daughter is a grad student at CSU.
RancidSumo
12-14-10, 11:02
Though I do not know if an appeal has been filed or, if so, what the status of that appeal might be, this is the finding of the Colorado Court of Appeals on whether or not concealed carry applies to universities:
http://www.courts.state.co.us/Courts/Court_of_Appeals/opinion/2010/09CA1230.pdf
If anybody has more recent information, I would be interested. My daughter is a grad student at CSU.
CSU currently allows concealed carry on campus.
From my perspective, a compact sized pistol such as the Glock 19/23, Sig P228/P229, H&K P30/P2000/45c, or any pistol with a 4" barrel and compact sized grip is ideal for most occasions. This pistol size seems to be the best middle ground between full sized pistol performance, and convienient size. The full sized M&P grip sticks out a bit much for my tastes when carried concealed.
As for a pocket gun, you sacrifice a lot with them. Tiny caliber(reduced effectiveness), tiny grip(limp wrist malfunctions), poorer handling, and they are harder to shoot well. I've used the Sig P232 for years, but it's a big "pocket gun". In order to get a reliable automatic with any decent caliber, you've got to go bigger. That's why a small j-frame revolver in .38spl+P makes the best overall backup gun in my opinion. Very light, compact, decent caliber, rock solid reliable, and a decent shooter.
Beat Trash
12-14-10, 11:51
I've seen several posts saying it has to do with how I'm built so I'll just post that.
I'm 6'3", 210, with a 32-34 in waist depending on the brand/cut.
With the right holster and a good belt, you should have no problem concealing a full size M&P. Anything smaller such as a Glock 19 or a M&P9c would be that much easier.
J frame in the pocket is my preferred method of carry.
I hope they don't and I'll look into it over the next couple years and possibly bring it up with the administration if it looks like they should be legally required to allow it.
I'm not really sure what I'll major in yet. As of now I'm thinking geophysics. Its definitely tough, I've got my last final tomorrow and I managed to pass all my classes this semester no matter what I get tomorrow. It was a real wake up call coming from high school where I got straight A's with no effort to coming here and getting my ass kicked by classes I expected to be easy. I had to pick up study skills quick to keep up and barely did in time this semester.
I go through Ft. Collins every two weeks on my way home. Maybe one of these days we will have to get together for some range time.
i go to front range gun club in loveland usually. nice place.
definitely getting my ass kicked by school as well, but it's good. Studying for finals i'm realizing how much stuff i've learned :eek:
bova41@mac.com
12-14-10, 12:52
Crossbread supertuck deluxe. O have one for both my HK45C and my Sig 229. They are both great. Only thing is I wish I opted for the combat cut. My wife couldn't even tell I was carrying.
The safety concerns with reholstering using an AIWB prompted me to change from an M&P to an H&K P30 so I could use my thumb to control the hammer.
I carry AIWB 99% of the time too, however, I am transitioning from hammer fired weapons to striker fired (M&P) and have given this some thought as well. While I like "extra" degree of safety/awareness provided by the thumb on hammer option, it seems so long as one remains aware and vigilent on reholster, an M&P or Glock shouldn't really present a problem. Did you really find it to be that much of an issue of safety at reholster with the AIWB and the M&P, or are we talking about a nicety of the P30, but not the only reason youe switched? Genuinely curious.
1. What pistol should I look at?
2. Is there a better method of carry when you absolutely cannot be found out?
For the pistol, I've been looking at these three options so far-
Smith and Wesson Bodyguard .380
Smith and Wesson J Frame
Sig P232 .380
Are there any others I should look at? What would you choose for pocket carry or for whatever method of carry you recommend?
Im 6'2" and my weight varries from 175-195lbs. Pretty lanky, 32 in waist (at both weights) and I've concealed some pretty large pistols with good AIWB holsters and belt combos.
My wife has recently started carrying a Kahr PM9... it is super small and easy to hide, even on her small frame and fitted clothes. I shot the larger (but still slim) P9 at the range and really liked it. Thought about picking one up when I need to go smaller than a double stack.
My brother just bought a Kel-tech pf9 and it is tiny, don't know much about it though in terms of reliability etc.
John_Wayne777
12-14-10, 16:47
Did you really find it to be that much of an issue of safety at reholster with the AIWB and the M&P, or are we talking about a nicety of the P30, but not the only reason youe switched? Genuinely curious.
I started thinking about how often I've been on the range and been dehydrated, sunburned, and generally not at my mental or physical peak. I started thinking about how many close calls I've seen on the range and how many more I've heard of from reliable sources. I came to the conclusion that I would either have to train differently than I carry or get a pistol that increased the margin of error in the gun handling department. I was looking at the P30 with interest, but after thinking about what I was doing with AIWB I decided to buy two of them and make them my new primary carry guns.
You mentioned that it seems that as long as someone remains vigilant and aware of what they are doing that they should be fine. That's true.
...but answer me this: Have you ever locked your keys in your car? Have you ever run a stop sign? Have you ever missed a turn because you were distracted? Have you ever gone to the store and forgotten to pick up something you went to get because you got distracted?
My general point here is that human beings are, by nature, human. I'm not worried about what I'm going to do 90% of the time or even 95% of the time or even 99.9% of the time. I'm worried about what happens on that one repetition out of tens of thousands where I'm not vigilant and aware of what I'm doing for whatever reason. Since I'm not a cyborg, I'm capable of screwing up. Knowing that a lot of accidental discharges happen during reholstering, that striker-fired pistols with no manual safety have a fairly narrow margin of error in terms of handling, and that the positioning of an AIWB holster places the muzzle in a position where a discharge will either kill me or turn me into a eunuch, I thought that continuing to do things as I was doing them was tempting fate.
The choice to go with the P30 was motivated primarily by my desire to keep using my everyday carry gear in training and practice with live ammo.
Call me crazy but I think the OP (and everyone else) is putting the cart before the horse since he has ZERO time carrying and doesn't even have a carry permit yet. I'd suggest that before we start jumping to the conclusion that he can't conceal his M&P we give him a good place to start like using a good belt, picking one of the many tried and true IWB holsters and giving some wardrobe advice. If that doesn't work out then revisit the topic.
John Wayne.... thanks for muddying my waters!
RancidSumo
12-15-10, 13:44
Thanks for all the advice everyone.
To address a couple points, I'm pretty sure I could conceal a full size M&P and that is likely what I will conceal most of the time. However, the situation I'm talking about in this thread is one in which I need an option that is more concealable so it will be less likely to ever be seen. Think along the lines of if you ever got caught, you would lose you job. If that was the case what would you conceal and how? I'll be looking into appendix carry more as well as the smart carry option.
If wardrobe makes a difference in your suggestions, I typically wear jeans and polos or untucked button downs, button downs being the most common. Not too often but often enough to come into consideration, I wear a suit.
If wardrobe makes a difference in your suggestions, I typically wear jeans and polos or untucked button downs, button downs being the most common. Not too often but often enough to come into consideration, I wear a suit.
You can conceal damn near anything under an untucked button down with very little effort.
I carry a LCP in a pocket holster everyday. It's just to easy not to. Iv'e also carried a j-frame in a pocket holster, not quite as easy. From handling the S&W bodyguard series I'd recommend you stay away. The laser deals are over-rated and difficult to manipulate. The trigger are on par with some of the worst Kel-Tecs made. If your wanting something along those lines get the Ruger LCP or LCR or a Smith J frmae.
Alpha Sierra
12-15-10, 16:34
A Kahr or J frame AWIB is virtually undetectable under the kind of dress you describe.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-15-10, 22:32
IMO, the grip length is the part you need to worry about concealing. Thats why I carry a P239 or a G19 as when carried IWB the grip barely sticks out of my pants. Eventually, Id like to downsize to a 26, which is what Id reccomend to the OP,
Don Robison
12-15-10, 22:35
Actually yes I have. Do you feel it offers a high enough level of concealment?
I've been carrying a G21 AIWB everyday for three years under a t-shirt. I added an RMR and it still conceals just fine.
Thanks for all the advice everyone.
If wardrobe makes a difference in your suggestions, I typically wear jeans and polos or untucked button downs, button downs being the most common. Not too often but often enough to come into consideration, I wear a suit.
I have been very surprised to see how well my MTAC hides when wearing a suit. I tuck the shirt over the M&P and unless I'm wearing a white shirt, its gone. When I wear white, I tuck the undershirt too.
1_click_off
12-16-10, 11:40
The most undetectable way I carry is with a LCP and the clip made for the Kel-Tec. You remove the frame pin near the hammer and insert the new one, it is threaded on one end, attach the clip (much like a pocket clip on a knife) and tighen it down with the supplied screw. Clip it just on the inside of your pants anywhere you want. You can clip it over or under your belt. I don't think you can get any more concealed. This carry method will require daily or every other day maintenance if you sweat alot.
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/KEY016-33.html
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