View Full Version : Florida school meeting shooting
Thankfully the gunman was shot and killed before he could cause much harm.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40664031/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts
rickrock305
12-14-10, 17:08
whats with the V in a circle?
Belmont31R
12-14-10, 18:40
whats with the V in a circle?
V for Vendetta.
http://blogs.1077theend.com/files/2010/11/v-for-vendetta-logo-wallpaper.jpg
wow... gotta put a capital L on that one.
Holy ****ing NEGLIGENT DISCHARGE!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0A8o0s2zsi4
:sarcastic:
Holy ****ing NEGLIGENT DISCHARGE!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0A8o0s2zsi4
:sarcastic:
:eek:
****in A- he probably didn't "suicide," he probably ND'd himself.
Did you see the video where the lady snuck up on him from behind and tried to hit him on the back of the head with her purse? Pretty gutsy.
Gutshot John
12-15-10, 07:51
Did you see the video where the lady snuck up on him from behind and tried to hit him on the back of the head with her purse? Pretty gutsy.
Fine line between gutsy and stupid.
I wonder how many board members had to go get a clean pair of underwear after that happened. Did you see how some just sat there in disbelief that it was happening?
John_Wayne777
12-15-10, 08:26
Fine line between gutsy and stupid.
She was at least proactive...which is better than the guys sitting at the table. "Please don't" is an inappropriate response to someone who points a gun at you.
I wonder how many board members had to go get a clean pair of underwear after that happened. Did you see how some just sat there in disbelief that it was happening?
The disbelief continued throughout the incident. I saw a video after the shooting had stopped where one of the board members tells the hero who shot this dumbass that the dumbass was using "caps".
Gutshot John
12-15-10, 08:33
She was at least proactive...which is better than the guys sitting at the table. "Please don't" is an inappropriate response to someone who points a gun at you.
Agreed but perhaps a bit more credit is due to the security guard who also engaged and shot the BG, at least he had a decent plan to along with being proactive.
I'm just saying there is a fine line between being gutsy and being stupid. Luck also played a role in that the BG didn't seem to actually want to kill anyone.
In any other circumstance she would have been dead and I think the media is doing the public a disservice by suggesting that you can be a hero with a purse.
John_Wayne777
12-15-10, 08:42
I'm just saying there is a fine line between being gutsy and being stupid. Luck also played a role in that the BG didn't seem to actually want to kill anyone.
I disagree, sir. Watch the video. Watch how he closed distance on the members of the board and deliberately tried to put bullets into one of them who was just off camera as that man dove for cover.
He meant to kill...he just sucked.
Her plan was certainly not the most effective one...but it's not like she had an abundance of good options. When her colleagues were in mortal danger she took it upon herself to act even at great peril to her own life.
Meanwhile when she was in peril none of the other dudes took a single proactive move.
In any other circumstance she would have been dead and I think the media is doing the public a disservice by suggesting that you can be a hero with a purse.
I haven't seen much media coverage of this, but I think that anyone with an IQ in triple digits will be able to process that swinging a purse against a guy with a handgun is an ineffective response...but it's better than sitting there waiting for the guy to shoot you.
rickrock305
12-15-10, 08:45
She was at least proactive...which is better than the guys sitting at the table.
But in this case, her proactive action could have resulted in getting herself or someone else killed. What did she hope to accomplish with the purse? It was an idiotic move and she's lucky she didn't pay with her life.
Action just for the sake of doing something isn't always the best course. Especially if your actions aren't going to provide a decisive outcome to the situation and even possibly make the situation worse.
"Please don't" is an inappropriate response to someone who points a gun at you.
In your opinion, what would have been an appropriate response in that situation? And have you ever been in that situation?
John_Wayne777
12-15-10, 08:58
But in this case, her proactive action could have resulted in getting herself or someone else killed. What did she hope to accomplish with the purse?
As opposed to the inaction of the other school board members which resulted in the guy shooting at them? Anything is preferable to sitting there waiting to get killed.
Action just for the sake of doing something isn't always the best course. Especially if your actions aren't going to provide a decisive outcome to the situation and even possibly make the situation worse.
Allowing a homicidal maniac to establish control is making the situation worse, whether that's a nutcase in a school board room or hijackers on a plane bound for Washington DC.
And have you ever been in that situation?
If you mean have I ever been on the wrong end of a gun before, yes. I know what it's like to be on the ground nursing a (thankfully minor) gunshot wound, son.
That should be the last time someone asks such a hair-brained question in this thread.
Gutshot John
12-15-10, 09:02
I disagree, sir. Watch the video. Watch how he closed distance on the members of the board and deliberately tried to put bullets into one of them who was just off camera as that man dove for cover.
According to the media he pointed the gun at her like he was going to shoot her called her a "stupid bitch" and then didn't.
A truly hardened killer would have just pulled the trigger. It seemed more like he was trying the whole suicide by cop thing which is what his words on the video seem to indicate.
I'm certainly not endorsing the actions of the other board members but I don't think we can know what he intended to do or not do. They certainly don't seem to be worth risking my life over. If however you're going to execute a plan like that at least get yourself something resembling a weapon (fire axe, fire extinguisher, flag pole etc.,) a purse is an idiotic choice of weapon.
Reasonable people can disagree but the real hero in my estimation is the security guard.
John_Wayne777
12-15-10, 09:08
I'm certainly not endorsing the actions of the other board members but I don't think we can know what he intended to do or not do.
I can only judge by his actions...which involved pulling a gun on people at a school board meeting, taking hostages, and then trying to kill the hostages.
Reasonable people can disagree but the real hero in my estimation is the security guard.
Yes, because he stopped the threat. Her actions, however, were still preferable to the inaction of the other people at the table.
People died at Fort Hood trying to stop Hassan's rampage with improvised weapons they had at hand. A chair, if I recall correctly. Were their efforts stupid as well, or were they just people stuck in a bad situation who did whatever they could to stop the carnage?
Sometimes all you're handed is a shit hand and you have to play it. The ideal solution would have been to shoot him in the back of the head...but that wasn't an option for her at that moment.
All the shit my wife keeps in her purse, I bet I could **** someone up with it pretty good. Especially if I snuck up on them.
Gutshot John
12-15-10, 09:11
If your only option is getting shot by a terrorist or using a purse. Then I suppose use the purse.
Sneaking back in to a meeting you've escaped in order to confront an armed assailant without a well thought out plan (not to mention something that could reasonably be used as a weapon) is not so bright. Especially when you don't do anything to end the standoff and instead give the BG one more hostage (at best) or making yourself a target for execution (at worst) may not be the brightest move.
Calling the woman a hero without pointing out how truly lucky she (and everyone else in the room) was, does the public something of a disservice when there were actual heros involved.
John_Wayne777
12-15-10, 09:14
If your option is getting shot or using a purse. Then I suppose use the purse.
Sneaking back in to a meeting you've escaped in order to confront an armed assailant without a well thought out plan (not to mention something that could reasonably be used as a weapon) is not so bright. Especially when you don't do anything to end the standoff and instead give the BG one more hostage may not be the brightest move.
Calling the woman a hero without pointing out how truly lucky she (and everyone else in the room) was, does the public something of a disservice when there were actual heros involved.
Please note that I never referred to her as a hero. I simply stated that her response, however ineffective and poorly thought out, was vastly superior to the dudes who just sat there waiting for a homicidal maniac to spin up enough to shoot them.
...and she wasn't on video trying to convince the guy who stopped the threat that he'd just shot an unarmed man in the immediate aftermath of the video, either.
rickrock305
12-15-10, 09:16
As opposed to the inaction of the other school board members which resulted in the guy shooting at them? Anything is preferable to sitting there waiting to get killed.
She almost made sure of it though, didn't she? Whats better, wait for the opportunity to make a move that will actually effect a desirable outcome, or go off halfcocked swinging a purse like an idiot?
Allowing a homicidal maniac to establish control is making the situation worse, whether that's a nutcase in a school board room or hijackers on a plane bound for Washington DC.
And how did swinging a purse do anything to change that? He was completely in control the entire time. And she was lucky she wasn't executed for her stupidity.
I'm all for making a move to remedy the situation, but you gotta at least put a little thought into it. The lady was an idiot.
Gutshot John
12-15-10, 09:18
Please note that I never referred to her as a hero.
I understand that you didn't but the media is hailing her as a hero which is who I originally credited with that assessment.
I didn't see the video with the "unarmed man" claim. Whomever said that is dumber than a box of rocks.
I believe she was attempting to disarm the man by swatting the weapon out of his hand while he wasn't looking, not just "swinging her purse at him". She has my respect for displayed courage and dignity.
pretty disgusting the way they all just sat there waiting to die. they completely entrusted in the psycho with their lives... here you go, do what you will with it. and he obviously wanted people dead- you can see the look of satisfaction on his face when he takes the shot at the guy in the middle, and thinks he's hit him.
he probably would have continued to stand around spewing at the mount, shooting them one at a time until he got through everyone... and as far as i can tell, they all would have let him do it.
the woman might have been stupid, but at least she had a measurable ounce of bravery. too bad she didn't have a pistol in that purse- bet she wishes she did now. one armed person could have easily ended this assjack in the very beginning.
John_Wayne777
12-15-10, 09:25
Rickrock:
The ice you are skating on is perilously thin. I suggest you knock it off immediately.
There is too much speculation and rush to judgment here on both sides. Everybody seems to know what they would have done better watching from the safety of their computer, something not usually deemed socially acceptable here.
And for good reason.
the woman might have been stupid, but at least she had a measurable ounce of bravery. too bad she didn't have a pistol in that purse- bet she wishes she did now. one armed person could have easily ended this assjack in the very beginning.
That video is a good example of why "Gun Free Zones" are complete horseshit. And why valid and willing CCW holders should be allowed to carry in areas like that. They probably have a nice sign in the front window that says "No firearms allowed". :rolleyes:
But in this case, her proactive action could have resulted in getting herself or someone else killed. What did she hope to accomplish with the purse? It was an idiotic move and she's lucky she didn't pay with her life.
Action just for the sake of doing something isn't always the best course. Especially if your actions aren't going to provide a decisive outcome to the situation and even possibly make the situation worse.
what exactly would you have done ?
that wack might have changed him and thrown him off his game ?
She almost made sure of it though, didn't she? Whats better, wait for the opportunity to make a move that will actually effect a desirable outcome, or go off halfcocked swinging a purse like an idiot?
And how did swinging a purse do anything to change that? He was completely in control the entire time. And she was lucky she wasn't executed for her stupidity.
I'm all for making a move to remedy the situation, but you gotta at least put a little thought into it. The lady was an idiot.
have to say put the two of you in a room and general public take a vote I bet none would vote her the idiot !!!!!
I dont think she is a hero but she is brave ! and she is not a idiot in my book at least she did something
you are good at thinking you know ? or changing the situation to fit your thoughts
FACT is he is dead she is alive and at least she did something
so instead of typical you not using facts but your own fantasy thoughts why not stick to the facts
also ditto bkb I wish she had a gun and pop pop pop down goes the weasel !
I also wish but do not know the situation the security guard fired sooner and more :)
but the facts again the outcome was nobody but the bad guy was shot
FNC just aired a news conference with the members. They are some real characters. Supposed to be rebroadcast in a bit.
William B.
12-15-10, 10:01
That video is a good example of why "Gun Free Zones" are complete horseshit. And why valid and willing CCW holders should be allowed to carry in areas like that. They probably have a nice sign in the front window that says "No firearms allowed". :rolleyes:
+1! Just another example of government bureaucrats restricting our rights to "keep us safer." Seems to be working well :rolleyes: People who support these "gun free zones" either live in some kind of fantasy world or have ulterior motives.
Anybody have the video where the guy says he was shooting blanks?
William B.
12-15-10, 10:26
Anybody have the video where the guy says he was shooting blanks?
I've been reading people's comments on the videos that suggest this, too.
John_Wayne777
12-15-10, 10:31
Anybody have the video where the guy says he was shooting blanks?
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=772_1292376603
Be careful, though, as occasionally LiveLeak can display some NSFW content as advertising.
The video on the bottom shows the encounter up until the gunfight starts and then the video freezes, but the audio continues. In the aftermath you can hear someone telling the hero that the now dead dumbass was using "caps" and that the hero gave the guy just what he wanted.
Pretty stupid thing to tell the guy who just stopped a dude shooting at you, in my opinion....
kaiservontexas
12-15-10, 10:35
That video made my stomach churn watching defenless people sitting there just waiting for it to happen. I have no idea there stance on weapons, but this is why we have and should have on hand the weapons.
They are lucky in my opinion. God or the whatever was working overtime because all that guy had to do was walk over to them to insure he killed them.
As for the purse, hey it is not as if the woman in quesion is a trained übersoldat. She did what she thought of to best protect herself and others at the moment. I give her props for that even if her choice of defensive action is inept. Perhaps we should pile on to get her trained? Just in case she has to make such a choice again . . .
And did I hear one of the board members say the scumbag was just looking for suicide by cop before he opened fire on them?
Did you see the video where the lady snuck up on him from behind and tried to hit him on the back of the head with her purse? Pretty gutsy.
Looks like she was trying to knock his gun away. Very stupid move to say the least. What she needed was a sure kill move. I would have removed myself from the situation if I was unarmed. I can see a 100 lb, 60 year old woman with a purse subduing a 275 lb gunman.
Anybody have the video where the guy says he was shooting blanks?
Here is an article from the U.K. with the video you were asking about. Same video John_Wayne777 posted a link to, but no NSFW content.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/8202973/School-board-shooting-gunman-Clay-Duke-caught-on-camera-taking-potshots-at-terrified-panel.html
One thing that amazes me about the whole situation is that besides the security guard who shot the gunman, the only person to do something, besides trying to talk him down, was the female board member with her purse.
Her choice of a weapon may have been poor, but as many others have said she took ACTION. True her action may have esclated the situation, but in action can just as easily do the same. Second guessing her does little constructive. When I had a real job, we had to choose between bad choices all the time, but in most cases one of the bad choices was better then doing nothing at all. Examples: 1. Patrol the IED lined roads mounted in kevlar blanket and sand bagged M-998's and LMTV's. 2. Patrol the IED lined roads dismounted and well dispersed. 3. Don't conduct patrols until your unit recieves the latest M-ATV's with a route clearance company and stay holed up in your COP.
I'll chip in towards a class for her so she understands better how to act in such a situation.
Anyone else?
Who said he was shooting blanks, one of the people diving behind the counter?:rolleyes:
After seeing the video over and over on TV, I concur that she was trying to knock the gun out of his hand.
Like bkb said just think if she had a gun in that bag of hers, it would have been much heavier and may have done the trick.:sarcastic:
Anything is preferable to sitting there waiting to get killed.
I am totally on board with this. Yet most people seem to think that cooperating is the best course of action. The people in that room could have taken down the shooter, although some would have taken rounds. Or they could have stampeded out of there. The loony dude may have shot, but he shot anyway, and he had stationary targets instead of running ones.
After watching the videos a bunch, at least to me, it looks like he missed on purpose. As close as he was I don't see how he could have missed, unless his intention wasn't to shoot them at all. It all just reeks of "Death by Cop".
As far as the lady trying to knock the gun out of his hand with her purse at least she tried to do something. Catching him completely unaware very easily could have succeded. Yes she could have gotten herself killed but any action taken by anyone could have had the same result.
She was at least proactive...which is better than the guys sitting at the table. "Please don't" is an inappropriate response to someone who points a gun at you.
Honestly, the guy behind the table had more guts than anyone. He tried to secure the release of everyone in the room by taking responsibility for the shooter being upset.
If you have weapons, you use those weapons to defend yourself. But if you have no weapons, and because a purse isn't an effective weapon, you are left with diplomacy. And that is what the guy behind the table had to work with and he showed more courage than most diplomats I have ever seen.
Keep in mind he has no special hostage negotiation training, and when you are staring down the barrel of a guy who seemingly wants to die today, "please don't" might not be the best defense but at least he was still trying.
I have to wonder what most "I know what I'd do in that situation" (and here I don't mean you) folks would actually do when faced with it.
If your only option is getting shot by a terrorist or using a purse. Then I suppose use the purse.
Sneaking back in to a meeting you've escaped in order to confront an armed assailant without a well thought out plan (not to mention something that could reasonably be used as a weapon) is not so bright. Especially when you don't do anything to end the standoff and instead give the BG one more hostage (at best) or making yourself a target for execution (at worst) may not be the brightest move.
Calling the woman a hero without pointing out how truly lucky she (and everyone else in the room) was, does the public something of a disservice when there were actual heros involved.
I don't think anyone here is calling her a hero. I think they are only pointing out that she tried and I agree. She had a crap plan, but really how good can the plan be when formed by an unarmed old lady with no time to spare and no real weapons.
She tried, and failed. But at least she tried. She knew she might sacrifice it all and lose, and still she went in and tried to do something.
Now I agree with you that it is a cautionary tale of foolish heroics. But when you are one of the poor bastards behind the table waiting to die you are generally praying for a foolish hero to come save your ass. And sometimes foolish heroics actually succeed.
And I'm sure that in "her mind" once she distracted the shooter, some of those brave men behind the table would rise up and overpower the shooter.
And I'm sure that in "her mind" once she distracted the shooter, some of those brave men behind the table would rise up and overpower the shooter.
I have been biting my tongue about this, but it is hard to understand why they did not rush the gunman when the purse lady created an opening for them.
I have been biting my tongue about this, but it is hard to understand why they did not rush the gunman when the purse lady created an opening for them.
I have met a LOT of people, even those who supposedly train for situations just like this, and I have seen some of these people tested and a surprisingly large percentage simply aren't up to it. I try not to fault them, hopefully I learn from them.
Gutshot John
12-16-10, 15:06
Now I agree with you that it is a cautionary tale of foolish heroics. But when you are one of the poor bastards behind the table waiting to die you are generally praying for a foolish hero to come save your ass. And sometimes foolish heroics actually succeed.
Like I said there is a very fine line between "foolish" and "heroic."
Shouldn't one of those old broads have been carrying some OC?
John_Wayne777
12-16-10, 15:40
I have been biting my tongue about this, but it is hard to understand why they did not rush the gunman when the purse lady created an opening for them.
...because the number of people for whom "Kill that mother****er" is the automatic response to someone threatening their lives is fairly small in the first place, at least in the US. The number of people who can spontaneously mount a group response to an event like this is smaller still.
This discussion should probably be about how important it is to observe our surroundings and also an endorsement of conceal carry. Using all this bandwidth to either second guess or downright bash these unprepared elderly folks in that spontaneous and terrifying circumstance is friggin dopey, gentlemen.
This discussion should probably be about how important it is to observe our surroundings and also an endorsement of conceal carry. Using all this bandwidth to either second guess or downright bash these unprepared elderly folks in that spontaneous and terrifying circumstance is friggin dopey, gentlemen.
I would tend to agree with you. What's done is done and nothing can change that fact. Anyone can Monday morning quarter back the incident all they want, but it does nothing to change what happened. The best anyone can hope for, is to take whatever lessons can be learned from the past and apply them should they face something similar.
Suwannee Tim
12-16-10, 19:44
In Florida you cannot CCW in "any meeting of the governing body of a county, public school district, municipality, or special district". I think the shooter intended to kill, I think he was just a horrible shot. Hard to believe anyone could shoot that poorly but I have seen it and worse.
.....it is hard to understand why they did not rush the gunman when the purse lady created an opening for them.
=====================================
...........especially when they could see her sneaking up on the BG. She had escaped and was safe but came back in harms way to help them but I guess they were going to just let her die trying to rescue them.
I think she was heroic.
.
watch domesticated animals like sheep
wolf attacks they huddle together making a easier target ?
watched some zebras on some safari show and some hyena or something attacked the young the zebras ganged up and trampled the crap out of them !!!!
funny how some animals/people dont get it and some do ?
Suwannee Tim
12-17-10, 05:54
I hate to use hoary phrase "in denial" but that's what these School Board members were. These people were astonishingly lucky, first that the shooter was inept, second, that there was a skilled, determined person nearby to save their asses.
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