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View Full Version : EAG Carbine StJoMo 11-13Aug 2007



Pat_Rogers
08-14-07, 11:20
EAG Conducted a Carbine Operators Course at the Pigeon Hill Conservation Area in StJoMo, 11-13 Aug 2007.
T1
Just prior to leaving home, the young daughter of one shooter decided to heat up breakfast syrup in a microwave. The bottle burst, causing 2nd degree burns but fortunately no serious eye damage.
On the way to class, one of my AI’s hit Bambi at 70 MPH on the interstate. Bambi DRT, truck WIA, AI good to go.
WX was typical of what you would expect for the area in August. T1 was hovering about 100. The range is primitive, and the surrounded by trees, preventing any breeze from stirring the hot air around.
This was an open enrollment class, and the mix was cops, military, contractors and average earth people.
The heat always presents issues, especially with people who are out of shape. We continue to emphasize hydration, but too many people – for whatever reasons- ignore this. The results are diminished performance factors, which leads to reduced learning and eventually safety issues.
People- bring a CamelBak or bottled liquid on the line with you. To not do so means you will either have a miserable time or will become a heat casualty- neither of which is optimal.
Gun issues. A cop’s duty RRA would not extract. The extractor was as smooth as butter (the gun had 500 rds through it). The extractor spring was a 4 coil and insert was blue. We replaced the extractor, installed a 5 coil spring and black insert.
A good running frankengun also stopped running. The extractor spring was flat- no spring in the spring so to speak.
There are parts, and there are parts. Parts are apparently graded, and not all are Grade 1.
Buy cheap and expect problems.
Several magazines were poor performers. Thanks to Paul Buffoni at BCM, we have one hundred brand new D&H magazines which we use as student loaners. They are good running mags at an excellent price.
We are T&E 3 S&W M&P15’s- two are 15T’s, and one a standard 15. All are in the hands of students, and when we get approximately 4,000 rds downrange we’ll write up a SWAT story about there performance.

And at the end of T1, one student had the misfortune to hit another student while getting on to the Interstate. Minor damage, no injuries.

T2
No car accidents and no suicidal Bambi’s interfered with training, but the temperature on the range at 1330 was 123 degrees. Fortunately, the humidity was high so it was a fairly miserable day.
People had a much better read on keeping hydrated, and we took several relatively long breaks to get people rested, and several people were smart enough to take themselves off the line prior to having problems.
LeeAnn Robinson- our host-and several others brought shade tents as well as mega coolers and ice for the class, and we were additionally blessed when one of Mike Hueser’s friend- owners of a chain of supermarkets- supplied the class not only w/ water and Gatorade, but also catered an excellent meal at the range.
While the WX made life uncomfortable, we still accomplished all we needed to.
The better your physical shape, the more likely you can tolerate the WX issues. Some were having difficulty, some ran the class in full armor- and did it with power to spare.
Steve Sheldon is a stud, but we also had a soldier, severely WIA, who is getting back into shape so that he can shoot more haji’s in the face. Armor makes things more difficult, but is also a requirement for some.
Clearly mindset is supreme, but being in good shape makes it all easier.

T3
A more moderate WX day (relatively speaking) and we got a lot accomplished. In the middle of all of this accomplishing, the local police showed up in response to a report of automatic weapons firing. We were at a conservation area with multiple ranges in the area, and apparently some of those whose idea of shooting does not include fighting were offended by our NSR’s. The cop’s were extremely cool, understood what we were doing and wanted information on how they could participate.
The shooting world is extremely fragmented, and while the Zumbo affair was the most notable, there are a great number of people who hate anyone/ anything that do something they don’t do. There was no interruption in training and apparently the other shooters continued to be offended or left.

Magazines will always be a problem. Magazines wear out, and sometimes wear out at the wrong time. The PMAG’s are more common, and we have seen only a very few specific problems with them. BCM magazines are working real well.
Lube issues are declining as people become better educated. I prefer Slip, and Machine Gunners Lube appears to be working real well, but keep the guns wet if you want them to run.
Some guys were apparently opposed to doing this, and suffered the consequences.
Dry= non working gun>
Wet= properly working gun>
In police work we call this a clue…
The Aimpoint M4 is a viable sight. I have 4 of them on and they appear to be GTG.
However, while shooting a drill I saw the dot swing wide after the shot was fired. I figured I was just having a senior moment and forgot to hold the carbine tight enough.
But, it kept on happening. After the drill I took a look at it, and the site was rocking approximately 10 degrees to either side. The ratchet mount screws on to a spacer which screws onto the mount itself. All of these components were loose.
We have seen two of these mounts which wouldn’t lock tightly onto a 1913 rail, and this is similar to the problems experienced by the arms mounts (which are a lot less common now- fortunately).
Mark Larue has a fix on the boards in the form of a new mount. Priorities are an issue at Larue Tactical, and in the general scheme of things, this is a low priority job. There are relatively few M4’s in individual’s hands. The big Army has ordered a lot (as in many thousands). The M4 is more expensive because of the integral mount, so it is unlikely that many would spend even more money for another mount.
The quick fix is to Loctite all of the screws at purchase time. Or, buy an M3 with a Larue Mount.
We require slings on all carbines, but don’t specify the type for obvious reasons. Having said that, there are still those who use a parade sling for a variety of reasons which may or may not make sense.
One very real problem with a parade sling is that some who use it have a tendency to sling the carbine and forget they are carrying a weapon. As a consequence, some get sloppy and thence unsafe when bending over, deploying or slinging the gun.
To my way of thinking, with 2 point tactical slings like the VTAC, having a parade sling on a fighting gun makes no sense.
It was good to see a lot of people who are on these forums- Mike Spight, who shot like the proverbial house on fire; Doug Mitchell, who traveled a long way to take his first carbine class and bring out his Rottie, Max, and give us the doggie fix that was really appreciated. There wer many more, but Steve Sheldon- one of two with an AK, really got into the character of this particular platform.
Thanks to the Bros Hueser for the hard work on this class.
Thanks as well, to LeeAnn Robinson for the hard work in hosting this class (her first time at bat). She sought counsel from Big Irv Lehman and Sheriff Ken Campbell who provided her with sage advice. We wanted for nothing and it made our life much easier.
There were a host of others who pitched in everyday. We couldn’t leave the range set up at night due to thievery issues, so every night everything had to come down and packed off the range, and reset the next day. Only the cooperation of all hands made it possible. Russ Gardner, and Overland Park cop and instructor did a great job not only in shooting, but in supporting.
Thanks as well to Don and Suzanne Cosentino for supplying the class with several hundred bottles of water and Gatorade, as well as catering a sitdown meal at the range at the end of T2. Don owns Cosentino’s Price Chopper, a supermarket chain in the area. They are gun owners and shooters and we truly appreciate their support.
As always, thanks to Viking Tactics, Larue Tactical, Blue Force Gear, CSM, Slip 200, Tactical Springs and TangoDown for their support.
Lastly, we as a country seem to forget we are at war, and a great many of our citizens seem to be bent on lowering of standards and increasing the general pussification of our youth.
It ain’t all so. This war against the dregs of humanity and it has elevated the warrior spirit among some.
A great example was present in this class. Literally shot to pieces, one Warrior ran the course in fill armor and wound up being the high shooter in this class.
I stand in awe of men like this, and I am proud to have met him

lpd5408
08-22-07, 13:51
Sorry for the delay in posting but just wanted to throw my .02 in.
On TD3 I decided to pick a fight with gravity and the ground. Gravity and the ground won and jammed my trigger finger and thumb something bad.
Now that I am better I wanted to let others know about the great training that took place in St Jo.
The training would have been better if I had held up my end a little better. The next EAG class I will attend will show better results on my end. HYDRATION is very important. I failed to listen to that warning and had a terrible day on TD1. After I left the range on TD1 I went to the local Target and stocked up on water, Gatorade, and fruit. TD2 was the best day of training I have ever been part of. I was hydrated and relativly confortable even though it was 100+ degrees on the range.
My level of fitness was not acceptable. If I was in better shape my body would have dealt with the heat better. You dont have to be Mr. Universe to take this class but being in shape is a plus and will make your experience better.
Pat and his crew were great. Mike and Mark complement Pat and add to the overall experience.
Pat, next time you see me I will be in better shape mentally and physically and will be able to shoot more face shots.
Overall I give this class a big thumbs up. I know where my weak points are and what needs to be done to correct them.

Pat_Rogers
08-22-07, 14:17
Great to hear from you, and great to hear that Mr Thumb is better. That ground is tough....:mad:

You have a great attitude, which is better then all of the other issues combined.
More importantly, you gained experience (Pat's definition of expereience: "What you get when you don't get what you want")
In this case the lack of hydration was a bad experience.
Proper hydration on T2 was a good experience.
You were in much better shape then some of the others, and if not, T2 would have been playing catch up alllll day.

Looking forward to seeing you again. Looks like we'll be doing two in Sept. One in Columbia, and a cop class nearby StJo. Hopefully we'll have more moderate WX this time!!