View Full Version : Questions about SIG pistols
I'd ask this on the SIG forum but wanted a more unbiased response. I know that the last few years the SIGs made entirely here are not well thought of.
SIG is bringing in 228's current manufacture made completely in germany.....are these OK to buy.
Also the 226 Navy as it is suppossedly the same ast he one made for Navy seals does this also have QC problems.
Thanks in advance I know diddley about SIGS....can you tell?!
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-17-10, 22:35
German Sigs are beautiful Sigs. As far as Ive been told, the Navy model sigs are not the SEAL version but rather printed with an anchor and cost more. Someone correct me if Im wrong.
German Sigs are beautiful Sigs. As far as Ive been told, the Navy model sigs are not the SEAL version but rather printed with an anchor and cost more. Someone correct me if Im wrong.
Yes, partly incorrect. There was a limited run of 2000 pistols (I believe) where the guns where actually the same model/ configuration (coated internals/ Staghaven sights, etc.) as the 226s ordered by the Navy. The serial number began with "NSWXXXX."
I own three Navy 226 pistols, two which are of the original lot, and one which is not with a rail.
To the OP, if you can buy a SIG pistol made in Germany that is the best way to go. Otherwise, look for a model made before 2004/2005. Or a gun with the original stamped slide. Those stamped slide models usually came inside of a Black case/ or cardboard box, where the newest models where shipped in a bright blue container.
The SIG 226 and 228 are fantastic pistols and well worth the expense in my humble opinion. If it is at all possible try to find one to shoot first, then you have a better idea if the guns is for you.
I have owned many pistols and shot a variety of different models. There are very few pistols that rival the accuracy and reliability of a SIG classic series 9mm pistol when it is properly maintained. The standard 226 9mm is an excellent pistol.
SkiDevil
I love my sig pistols. That said, I do have some issues with them. I used to have a 220 in 9mm. I could not get mags for it to save my life. Sig no longre supported the model in the US. I eventually sold the gun due to not being able to get new mags.
My 229 is great. The only down side is that the mags are not stainless steel and will rust easily. Other than that the pistol is awsome.
I bought a sig 1911 XO, I couldn't pass the deal up, I am happy with it. No problems to speak of. Shoots great, not as well finished as my Kimber but still very nice.
SIg builds a nice gun. Al ittle over priced in some aspects but they are great shooters. They tend to go through quality control problems but if you get a shooter you won't let it go.
davebee456
12-17-10, 23:27
my P-226R extractor fell out within 150 rounds at a range session.
gun was bought new, the failure left my gun a paperweight,
Sig Replaced the extractor and plunger and i sold the gun.
no more new sigs.
I'd ask this on the SIG forum but wanted a more unbiased response. I know that the last few years the SIGs made entirely here are not well thought of.
SIG is bringing in 228's current manufacture made completely in germany.....are these OK to buy.
Also the 226 Navy as it is suppossedly the same ast he one made for Navy seals does this also have QC problems.
Thanks in advance I know diddley about SIGS....can you tell?!
Overall, I do prefer the old Sigarms guns(pre 2005). Fit and finish are much better, particularly Sigs made in West Germany. Since 2005, Ron Cohen took over operations at Sigarms USA, and the company name was changed to Sig Sauer INC in 2007. Since then, Sig has cut costs by using cheaper materials, and outsourcing many more parts than they usually do. In order to ensure that the guns actually fit together with so many vendors, certain parts like the slide have much looser manufacturing tolerances than previous generation models. The problem with that is, that it degrades accuracy, and it accelerates wear. The Sig P-series is a complex design, and it needs good quality controls to make it work well. Most Sigs on the civilian market are not even checked out before they are shipped out. My guess is that Sig has determined that it is cheaper to have the owner send the pistol back to be corrected than to check every gun that goes out.
I have had three SIGs, a P220 Match, a 1911, and a P226. Through a series of trades the only one I currently have is the 226. I have had no issues with any of them, but to be be fair, both the 220 and 226 were German-made and not Exeter-made. In fact the 226 is probably 15 years old now with 20,000 rounds through it and it still continues to run just fine.
The 1911 was a great gun, and in my opinion, the best 1911 for the price. Having said that, I wouldn't get another only because the design is a bit different than "normal" 1911s so it it was much harder finding holsters.
I have heard a lot and read quite a bit regarding the QC issues of Exeter-made pistols, so I doubt I would buy one made there.
pursuit0226
12-18-10, 09:18
I have one Sig 226R that I bought new in 2009. It is made in NH. I have to say that from day one, it has been flawless. I have probably in the neighborhood of 1000 rounds through the weapon and have never had a malfunction of any kind. My dad, son and other members of the range that I belong to have shot this pistol and regardless of ammo or shooting style, it goes bang everytime some one pulls the trigger. I do not have another Sig to compare it to but I do have two HK's, a P2000 in 9mm and a USPc 45. The HK's have become my primary weapons but not because the Sig has any problems or in inferior (I like the Sig trigger better then the HK's). It is just as a full size weapon it is heavier for CC. My suggestion is if you want a Sig, get one. It is a nice weapon and many people who's lives depend on them, swear by them.
I was issued a Sig 226 DAK in 9mm that I had about 4,000 rounds through without any problems. I bought one of the newer, railed Navy 226's and only have about 1,600 rounds through it. I also carry a P239 as a BUG/off duty that has around 3,000 rounds through it. I have never had a problem with any of my Sigs. That being said, I've read in numerous places about Sig's quality control, but I still believe they're one of the nicer pistols out there. If you could, I'd look for one of the older, German made Sigs, unless you wanted a rail, then I'd go for one of the newer frames. I've heard some horror stories from those that have added rails to the older models, they all eventually went with a newer frame with the rail.
mrosamilia
12-18-10, 09:31
:( I have had two German 228's 1 German 229 (357) 250 Tactical T.B. German 226 ( first gun) and now have a 226r E2 and a 229 E2 and have not had any issues with any of my Sigs. I do not doubt that people do have issues with their weapons, but I do also believe that there are many more "Tactical Tommy's" out there than we know about just looking for responses.
Not rambling just believe to much is made out of where a Sig is made. I also remember a thread on HK Pro about HK going down the pooper when they started production in US!! Just have to laugh:laugh:
GLOCKMASTER
12-18-10, 09:41
Very good thread on the P228. (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=56053)
Not rambling just believe to much is made out of where a Sig is made.
I agree with you to a point. I believe there have been more QC issues and customer service concerns since SIGs have been made "in house." What I haven't seen, though, and would like to, is some data to show that 'n' number of US-made SIGs have had to be returned to the factory vs the German-made. Since all 3 of my SIGs were great guns, and only one made in Exeter (the 1911), I really don't want to get into mud-slinging since I don't have first-hand knowledge of major concerns, just anecdotal stories and what I have read.
My 2 year old 226 Elite 9mm has been flawless from day one and shoots as well as any pistol I've owned. Round count is still under 900 rounds, but it has not hiccuped one time regardless of the ammo fed to it. I'm not saying that some haven't had issues with the Exeter made guns, but I think internet hype has cast a shadow over all recent Sigs, many of which are certainly functional and dependable pistols. My .02.
mkmckinley
12-18-10, 17:53
oldgrunt,
Where can you get a German-made 228?
oldgrunt,
Where can you get a German-made 228?
The German made P228R was a limited pistol imported into the US for only about 2000-3000 units. You can occasionally find them at gun shows, or online at places like this:
http://www.gunsamerica.com/Search/Category/628/2/Guns/Pistols/Sig-Sauer-Sigarms-Pistols.htm?ltid-all=1&t=&as=365&mn=0&mx=0&ffl=&ca=&co=&f=&sort=&numberperpage=50&cid=1404&lid=&dn=&ns=0&zipcode=&distance=0&limittostate=&
If not, the old W. German P228s are still very good guns and you can find them at gun shows with regularity. I bought this 1990 P228 this morning at a gun show for $450:
http://i480.photobucket.com/albums/rr169/sgalbra76/IMG_1972.jpg
It's got some holster, and typical carry wear.....but that is to be expected from a 20yr old pistol. You want to know that the gun has been carried around a lot and shot a lot by the previous owner/owners, then you know that it wasn't a lemon. I'm still amazed at how well these old German Sigs hold up mechanically when I look them over during a detailed strip and inspection. I saw three W. German P226s, and 1 other W. German P228 while I was at the gun show. Along with old Sigarms P229s. So, the guns are out there if you look, and if you carry cash.
There's 2 or 3 shops in DFW metroplex selling NIB 228r's.......all german made.
mkmckinley
12-18-10, 21:28
And now for my second stupid question: How do you tell if it's made in Germany?
And now for my second stupid question: How do you tell if it's made in Germany?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/SIG%20P228R/2010-11-12_13-48-34_264-1.jpg
:D
And now for my second stupid question: How do you tell if it's made in Germany?
As Templar has pointed out, the Sig will read "Made in W. Germany" or "Made in Germany" on the slide. On newer guns, it will also state this on the frame. Only stamped slide Sigs were entirely made in Germany. Sig Sauer of Germany never had the tooling to billet mill slides, and all milled slides were made by the US branch of Sig Sauer. The stamped slide models have always been better overall pistols, because more of the pistol was made in one factory.
mkmckinley
12-18-10, 22:57
You guys are awesome, thanks a lot.
Yes, partly incorrect. There was a limited run of 2000 pistols (I believe) where the guns where actually the same model/ configuration (coated internals/ Staghaven sights, etc.) as the 226s ordered by the Navy. The serial number began with "NSWXXXX."
I own three Navy 226 pistols, two which are of the original lot, and one which is not with a rail.
To the OP, if you can buy a SIG pistol made in Germany that is the best way to go. Otherwise, look for a model made before 2004/2005. Or a gun with the original stamped slide. Those stamped slide models usually came inside of a Black case/ or cardboard box, where the newest models where shipped in a bright blue container.
The SIG 226 and 228 are fantastic pistols and well worth the expense in my humble opinion. If it is at all possible try to find one to shoot first, then you have a better idea if the guns is for you.
I have owned many pistols and shot a variety of different models. There are very few pistols that rival the accuracy and reliability of a SIG classic series 9mm pistol when it is properly maintained. The standard 226 9mm is an excellent pistol.
SkiDevil
Concur...since the new management of SIGARMS decided to cut some of the QC out of the process, U.S. made/assembled SIGs after 2005 have been hit or miss. I'd get a used/CPO SIG versus a new one. I have the P226, P229, and P239 all in .40S&W
Well this is good to know ahead of time since the Sig P226 is on my "wish list" of semi-auto handguns to purchase. Hmmm. . .
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/SIG%20P228R/2010-11-12_13-48-34_264-1.jpg
:D
Your frame and slide are made in Germany. That gun is assembled in the US.
A German-made Sig will have German proofmarks on the slide and frame.
I'd be wary of getting a new SIG as Mec-Gar no longer makes their OEM magazines and the new ones have reported problems.
I had a recent 229 w/Rail that had some nasty machining marks inside the slide. Traded that away along with an older 226. Other than cosmetics, I've never had a problem with 229/226 in 9mm and 357 SIG. My one and only Sig now SAS229 Gen2, has been the same dependable and accurate. AFAIK, the Navy version has coating on the internals that prevents rust and wear. However I believe that the E2 models or conversion is the best enhancement for Sig at this time. YMMV.
This gets brought up every month or so on this forum so I have refrained from adding to it.
I was a diehard Sig Sauer fan.
I carried and shot the snot out of older 228 and carried a K-Kote 226 as well for quite some time. I still am a Sig factory armorer and back in the day would have recommended Sig to anyone asking me for advice on buying a new pistol. They cost more than other pistols, but you got exactly what you paid for.
Sigs in the past had an excellent fit and finish and had used extremely high quality parts in their manufacture. The guns had no problem handling high round counts and running hot ammo.
If you look at an old Sig catalog you will only see a few models offered- the 220, 225, 226 and 228. The guns all used a two piece stamped steel slide with breech block holding the firing pin.
Sig then added the 229 to be able to handle the 40 S&W round. These guns used a one piece stainless steel slide (no separate breech block).
You could pretty much have a Sig in black or nickel and every now and then the two-tone finish was offered with a nickel slide and small parts on a black anodized aluminum frame.
When Sig made a 226 40 S&W they made its slide a stainless one as well. Later, Sig added a stainless 220 to its catalog and other pistols with stainless frames.
The 220ST was the first pistol Sig made in its recent history I would not call utterly reliable. The 220 with a two-piece stamped steel slide always worked great. The 220ST used a stainless slide with internal extractor and somewhere along the way the extractor design got screwed up. The 220ST is known to be hit or miss in terms of extractors. Sig ultimately offered the 220ST with an external extractor design.
In December 2004 Sig hired Kimber's CEO Ron Cohen and he became Sig's CEO in 2006. Cohen has been slowly killing the company.
One Cohen era thing we have seen has been the offering of 900 different variations...all at an increased price. Long gone are the days of black or nickel...there are so many different variations now it is hard to keep track of them.
To increase profit margins Cohen outsourced the manufacture of small parts. This was not a mere cosmetic change, but changed the very reliability of every pistol they manufactured.
The new parts were all MIM. Broken slide stops, broken trigger bars and a variety of other broken small parts has been the outcome.
There are quite a few internet folks that want to claim that nothing changed and that MIM in Sigs is a non-issue. I'm here to tell you that crappy small parts are going to lose more local and Federal LE contracts than Sig can fathom. I've watched two PD's transition from older Sigs to new production Sigs and both have had an incredible amount of "issues" with their guns including things like slides shooting off frames due to broken slide stops and broken trigger bars after as little as 150 rounds. Not acceptable for a pistol costing $700. Not acceptable in a service pistol period.
Why haven't folks from the DHS contract seen the parts breakage? Sig’s MIM parts have a different part number than their non-MIM parts. Because the DHS contract specified the non-MIM parts with that part number that is what they get. You or I cannot order non-MIM parts from Sig, but DHS contract agencies can.
So you can't see it with your own eyes? Pick up a 2002 manufactured 226 or 229 and take a look at the grips compared to a new one. Take a look at the hammer. Take a look at the mag release. They look, feel and are different. Quality has dropped tremendously.
Then there is the 250. This promised on paper to be an awesome little pistol. Not a bad idea at all. In execution they sucked. The FAM's transitioned to this gun from their 229...and then from what I have heard have mostly transitioned back. When the ATF conducted their pistol testing they nixed the 250 as well due to its poor reliability. Sig protested it. When LE agencies go looking for a new pistol Sig tries to push (nearly give away) the 250. Every LE agency I know of that has tested or demo’d the 250 has basically written it off as being unreliable.
Why is Sig letting this happen? Why are do they continue on this path of self destruction? Because right now they are making a profit. They have decreased the cost of manufacture by outsourcing and buying subquality parts and have increased the cost of their pistols. People continue to buy Sigs on their past reputation. When they finally wake up and realize the new guns suck Cohen will have moved on and Sig Sauer will be a shadow of the great company it once was.
I will only buy German-proofed Sigs and mostly used guns. I'd love to find a couple 228's new or almost new in the box and a bunch spare parts for them (while I still can). I will NOT buy new US manufactured Sig pistols. I bought two and after realizing the mistake I made sold them.
Let's hope Sig gets rid of Cohen and figures itself out. I just don't see that happening right now. For now I'm going to make the switch to H&K (although that company is far from perfect either).
This gets brought up every month or so on this forum so I have refrained from adding to it.
Really refrained from adding to it, that must be why you've posted your opinion about QC and Cohen several times in the past. :rolleyes:
I do wonder if people realize what type of market Sig if forced to compete in. It's a market where Glock dominate because they can be sold for a fraction of what Sig can sell for and break even.
Cohen may have made some missteps but out sourcing parts production is the only way that Sig can compete with the P series. The million variations they sell to consumers, help sell guns. You put an Equinox, and a plain jane black P226R in a gun shop cabinet, and even though the Equinox is more expensive it will get more people looking at it, and people buying it. And they will pay more for the pistol because they see it has more value.
This gets brought up every month or so on this forum so I have refrained from adding to it.
I was a diehard Sig Sauer fan.
I carried and shot the snot out of older 228 and carried a K-Kote 226 as well for quite some time. I still am a Sig factory armorer and back in the day would have recommended Sig to anyone asking me for advice on buying a new pistol. They cost more than other pistols, but you got exactly what you paid for.
Sigs in the past had an excellent fit and finish and had used extremely high quality parts in their manufacture. The guns had no problem handling high round counts and running hot ammo.
If you look at an old Sig catalog you will only see a few models offered- the 220, 225, 226 and 228. The guns all used a two piece stamped steel slide with breech block holding the firing pin.
Sig then added the 229 to be able to handle the 40 S&W round. These guns used a one piece stainless steel slide (no separate breech block).
You could pretty much have a Sig in black or nickel and every now and then the two-tone finish was offered with a nickel slide and small parts on a black anodized aluminum frame.
When Sig made a 226 40 S&W they made its slide a stainless one as well. Later, Sig added a stainless 220 to its catalog and other pistols with stainless frames.
The 220ST was the first pistol Sig made in its recent history I would not call utterly reliable. The 220 with a two-piece stamped steel slide always worked great. The 220ST used a stainless slide with internal extractor and somewhere along the way the extractor design got screwed up. The 220ST is known to be hit or miss in terms of extractors. Sig ultimately offered the 220ST with an external extractor design.
In December 2004 Sig hired Kimber's CEO Ron Cohen and he became Sig's CEO in 2006. Cohen has been slowly killing the company.
One Cohen era thing we have seen has been the offering of 900 different variations...all at an increased price. Long gone are the days of black or nickel...there are so many different variations now it is hard to keep track of them.
To increase profit margins Cohen outsourced the manufacture of small parts. This was not a mere cosmetic change, but changed the very reliability of every pistol they manufactured.
The new parts were all MIM. Broken slide stops, broken trigger bars and a variety of other broken small parts has been the outcome.
There are quite a few internet folks that want to claim that nothing changed and that MIM in Sigs is a non-issue. I'm here to tell you that crappy small parts are going to lose more local and Federal LE contracts than Sig can fathom. I've watched two PD's transition from older Sigs to new production Sigs and both have had an incredible amount of "issues" with their guns including things like slides shooting off frames due to broken slide stops and broken trigger bars after as little as 150 rounds. Not acceptable for a pistol costing $700. Not acceptable in a service pistol period.
Why haven't folks from the DHS contract seen the parts breakage? Sig’s MIM parts have a different part number than their non-MIM parts. Because the DHS contract specified the non-MIM parts with that part number that is what they get. You or I cannot order non-MIM parts from Sig, but DHS contract agencies can.
So you can't see it with your own eyes? Pick up a 2002 manufactured 226 or 229 and take a look at the grips compared to a new one. Take a look at the hammer. Take a look at the mag release. They look, feel and are different. Quality has dropped tremendously.
Then there is the 250. This promised on paper to be an awesome little pistol. Not a bad idea at all. In execution they sucked. The FAM's transitioned to this gun from their 229...and then from what I have heard have mostly transitioned back. When the ATF conducted their pistol testing they nixed the 250 as well due to its poor reliability. Sig protested it. When LE agencies go looking for a new pistol Sig tries to push (nearly give away) the 250. Every LE agency I know of that has tested or demo’d the 250 has basically written it off as being unreliable.
Why is Sig letting this happen? Why are do they continue on this path of self destruction? Because right now they are making a profit. They have decreased the cost of manufacture by outsourcing and buying subquality parts and have increased the cost of their pistols. People continue to buy Sigs on their past reputation. When they finally wake up and realize the new guns suck Cohen will have moved on and Sig Sauer will be a shadow of the great company it once was.
I will only buy German-proofed Sigs and mostly used guns. I'd love to find a couple 228's new or almost new in the box and a bunch spare parts for them (while I still can). I will NOT buy new US manufactured Sig pistols. I bought two and after realizing the mistake I made sold them.
Let's hope Sig gets rid of Cohen and figures itself out. I just don't see that happening right now. For now I'm going to make the switch to H&K (although that company is far from perfect either).
An excellent post, and very much the truth. I've been using Sigs for 15 years now, and an armorer for most of those. In the DOI we have had numerous problems with broken small parts, springs, soft slide material, and softer frame material on newer Sigs. Just as you said though, our DHS contract guns and parts seem to be about as good as our old Sig components. However, that's not to say that we didn't have problems with our older Sigs as well.....but they weren't nearly as common.
John_Wayne777
12-19-10, 19:41
I'm not a big Sig fan in general, and especially not of the new and not-so-improved Sig under Cohen's leadership...
...but from what I've seen the P228R's they are importing from Germany are superb handguns and if I was forced to rely on one tomorrow I would do so without any heartburn. IIRC, they are being made largely from NOS (new, old stock) parts that were made the old Sig way.
I've carried SigSauer pistols since we transitioned from revolvers around 1989. At the time, and for some years thereafter, I felt the SIG was the premier duty pistol. Overall, we've had good luck with our early 9mm 226's and 230's and our more recent .40 226's and 239's. We did have a chunk of metal fall out of the frame during a qualification recently, but overall, we haven't had problems.
That said, SigSauer is losing the law enforcement market. If I'm getting the highest quality pistol, I'm willing to pay preimium price. If it's only an OK gun, there are plenty of other manufacturers that make quality weapons.
If I were purchasing weapons tomorrow, I think we'd be looking at Glock or S&W.
Really refrained from adding to it, that must be why you've posted your opinion about QC and Cohen several times in the past. :rolleyes:
I do wonder if people realize what type of market Sig if forced to compete in. It's a market where Glock dominate because they can be sold for a fraction of what Sig can sell for and break even.
Cohen may have made some missteps but out sourcing parts production is the only way that Sig can compete with the P series. The million variations they sell to consumers, help sell guns. You put an Equinox, and a plain jane black P226R in a gun shop cabinet, and even though the Equinox is more expensive it will get more people looking at it, and people buying it. And they will pay more for the pistol because they see it has more value.
Cost is not as much of a selling point as you might think. Yes Glock has a large share in the LE market, but so does Sig, H&K, S&W 4006, Beretta, and other more expensive hammer fired designs. The DHS contract of 2004 only counted cost as 10% of the testing criteria, while other performance factors like mechanical reliability, accuracy, durability,.....etc made up the other 90%. Sigs were selected for the contract, but that was back when Sigarms had a no compromise business model. The recent ATF trials is a reflection of how bad Sig has become as a company. From my training partners, BP and CBP mostly use H&Ks, DOD mostly uses Berettas, DOI mostly uses Sigs, BOP uses Berettas,.....and a few others like ATF, DEA, USFS, and TVA use Glocks. So, I'm guessing that at least with Feds you're looking at about 25% of the officers carrying Glocks, while the rest carry more expensive alternatives.
Sig is losing market share, because with the design a customer expects excellence. A demanding customer is willing to pay a premium price for a premium gun. From my end, which is the civilian and law enforcement customer base, I will not buy any new Sig pistols. The exception that I'd be willing to try is the P228R as more of that is made at a single factory in Germany. I love the Sig manual of arms and performance, and am willing to pay more for a quality hammer fired pistol over a cheaper striker fired pistol like a Glock. I will spend as much on ammo in a few months of consistent training as I would on a $1000 pistol which will last me decades.
The 228R's that recently went for sale and other recent 228's are not made in Germany. Their slides and frames were certainly made there, but to my knowldege the guns themselves were assembled in New Hampshire.
A German-made Sig will have proomarks such as these on them:
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y156/KevH/SigPro2022_3.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y156/KevH/wouldntunderstand.jpg
The only currently imported Sigs that are proofed (besides the run that PW Arms had and a few SP2022's) are the X5 series and the P232's.
WOW.... Glad I asked ...thanks for all the excellent responses....didn't realize the frame and slide were ger mfd and assembled here!!
THANKS.... you guys save me time , $$$$ and aggravation. THANKS!
WOW.... Glad I asked ...thanks for all the excellent responses....didn't realize the frame and slide were ger mfd and assembled here!!
THANKS.... you guys save me time , $$$$ and aggravation. THANKS!
If you want a Sig, the old ones are still out there. They'll likely have a lot of finish wear, but as long as you don't see any chips, cracks, damaged barrel crowns, or bore damage it's going to be a quality pistol. You can usually pick up a W. German Sig for under $500, and you can spend the rest of your money on Mec-Gar magazines, ammo, and training time. You can always have the pistol refinished if you want more rust resistance, and have an armorer change out your springs. I've found that Weapon Shield makes for a great lube and protectant on Sigs.
The only currently imported Sigs that are proofed (besides the run that PW Arms had and a few SP2022's) are the X5 series and the P232's.
There were a couple different runs of P225s that were also all German made/assemblied with proof marks.
I'm not a big Sig fan in general, and especially not of the new and not-so-improved Sig under Cohen's leadership...
...but from what I've seen the P228R's they are importing from Germany are superb handguns and if I was forced to rely on one tomorrow I would do so without any heartburn. IIRC, they are being made largely from NOS (new, old stock) parts that were made the old Sig way.
I believe the P228R's frame and slide are imported from Gemany and then they are finished at Exeter with P229 internals. My P228R came with the plastic guide rod (I changed it), MIM trigger and hammer. I've put a little over 1k rounds through it without a single problem.
I have owned SIGs for over 12 years and I have not had a problem with the German or American made models. In fact, my Exeter models have had better triggers and better finishes than the German ones. My wife just got an P239 SAS with the SRT trigger and it's the best out of the box trigger that I have ever felt on a SIG.
The only thing that does bug me about the new models is the plastic guide rods, but that is a cheap ($4) fix. The MIM parts don't really bother me and the only hangup I have with them is cosmetic. You will be very hard pressed to find any firearm made today that does not have some MIM parts.
I think that SIG went through some growing pains after they won a lot of the .gov contracts after 9-11 and hopefully they have corrected that. Even though I have not experienced the problems that people speak of with my personal weapons, or seen any problems with others in training, it doesn't mean that there aren't any. In my experience, Glocks and M&P's have been more problematic than the P Series SIGs.
FWIW.... Here's a post from someone on another forum that used to work for SIG (pre Cohen) during their supposed glory days. Keep in mind, that a lot of people recommend these "90's" guns over new production models.
My new made one is great (except for mag issues, which were taken care of by Sig), my old one is great. Every manufacturer has issues from time to time. When demand outpaces supply, corners are cut. I personally worked for Sigarms in Exeter back in the 90's and I can say without a doubt when production deadlines had to be met guns were slammed together and shipped without a proof round or any other rounds being fired on orders from the bosses. Is it right? Hell no, but that's what happens. Especially since at the time the employees were paid and treated like crap. There were always instances such as having to hone the muzzle end of the slide for the barrel to fit properly and having to whack the barrel into the breechblock repeatedly with a hammer to get it to seat right.
The DHS contract of 2004 only counted cost as 10% of the testing criteria, while other performance factors like mechanical reliability, accuracy, durability,.....etc made up the other 90%.
At the Federal level maybe cost isn't a factor, but at the local level, where budgets aren't quite as unlimited cost is most certainly a factor.
The recent ATF trials is a reflection of how bad Sig has become as a company.
No, the ATF trails show what happens when Sig doesn't keep up with the times. IIRC two of the requirements for the ATF pistol were DAO, and polymer frame. The only pistol that met both those requirements while still having a descent trigger pull was the P250 which is junk, and didn't stand a chance against the M&P and Glock. If the polymer frame wasn't a requirement, then the P series with the DAK trigger would've been a competitive option.
The P250 results doesn't reflect on the Classic series.
The exception that I'd be willing to try is the P228R as more of that is made at a single factory in Germany.
It's funny because I'm probably one of the few that has any significant rounds down range with the P228R. The folded steel slides of lore, yeah they are overrated. The roll pins can and do break, which then allows the slide to flex, which causes the frame rails to crack. Anyone that is really pushed Sigs will tell you that the Stainless slide design is a much better hard use gun.
Do I think that new Sigs has had some issues? Of course they've been switching suppliers finding more cost competitive options. They are going to have a batch or two of problem parts. And new designs also tend to have issues, take the DAK trigger tons of issues when that was first released with light strikes.
And no brand is immune to this, people that follow the M&P remember the rusting slides, the bad extractors, along with other issues.
For now I'm going to make the switch to H&K (although that company is far from perfect either).
I agree completely. My next pistol is going to be an HK .45 Compact.
I own a half-a-dozen SIGs, made when they were a quality pistol. I will not buy another new one unless there is a dramatic change in the quality of the guns being produced.
SkiDevil
I agree completely. My next pistol is going to be an HK .45 Compact.
I own a half-a-dozen SIGs, made when they were a quality pistol. I will not buy another new one unless there is a dramatic change in the quality of the guns being produced.
SkiDevil
What makes a Classic series SIG not a quality gun?
"Why haven't folks from the DHS contract seen the parts breakage? Sig’s MIM parts have a different part number than their non-MIM parts. Because the DHS contract specified the non-MIM parts with that part number that is what they get."
The "folks at DHS" ARE seeing all kinds of parts breakage.
"Why haven't folks from the DHS contract seen the parts breakage? Sig’s MIM parts have a different part number than their non-MIM parts. Because the DHS contract specified the non-MIM parts with that part number that is what they get."
The "folks at DHS" ARE seeing all kinds of parts breakage.
We have officers that use personally owned Sigs bought on the open market, and officers that are issued DHS contract guns. From my perspective, having serviced and kept logs on several hundred pistols for DOI in the last 5 years the DHS guns are less troublesome, but not as good as our old inventories of pre 2005 Sigs. In the 1990s and early 2000s, we rarely had problems with Sigs. We have about 5000 Sigs in inventory/circulation, ranging from the 1980s to present. We just acquired several thousand more Sigs from other Federal inventories(mostly older guns), so we will likely use this inventory for another decade. At this point, the DOI is not interested in procuring new Sigs, but we'll likely make due with what we have for a while. Unlike state and local agencies, Federal agencies cannot sell off old firearm inventories into the private market......they must be destroyed, thus losing a return on revenue. So, Feds tend to buy top of the line equipment, because it has to last two to three times longer than the inventories of state and local agencies. I've probably worked on close to a couple of thousand Sigs in my career, and many of the W. German 9mm models have around 100k rounds through them and still going strong. The old .45s and .40s will go that long too, but it is important to service them more often to decrease parts wear, and keep the parts tolerances from loosening up too much.
My hope is that when we finally do decide to make a large purchase of pistols, that we stay away from Sig. If Sig made guns like they used to with modern finishes, light rails, and other modern features I'd say that we should stick with them for another 20years. Most likely, we will piggyback onto either the BP/CBP contract for H&Ks, or the ATF contract for Glocks and M&Ps.
What makes a Classic series SIG not a quality gun?
The standard Classic Series pre-2005 is a quality gun.
However, if you keep buying the newer Classic versions you may eventually find-out why many others are quickly losing interest in the Brand.
A friend sold-off a non-rail 229 and later purchased a current classic 229 with the rail. I shot and examined both of these guns (and many other models). Although, I am not a certified SIG armorer, I have owned/ shot a variety of SIGs since 1989.
To say there were some quality differences would be an understatement (fit/ finish, machining of parts, tolerances, tool markings, etc.).
I am sure with the appropriate changes you mentioned, most of the current guns would work and could be servicable. But like someone else already said, if I am spending near $1K for a pistol I want a high quality gun.
Barring sending a new SIG classic series straight to Grey Guns, I would not carry-one for self-defense/ duty-gun, etc.
But to each his own.
SkiDevil
link: http://grayguns.com/gunsmith-services/sig-sauer-p-series/
The standard Classic Series pre-2005 is a quality gun.
However, if you keep buying the newer Classic versions you may eventually find-out why many others are quickly losing interest in the Brand.
A friend sold-off a non-rail 229 and later purchased a current classic 229 with the rail. I shot and examined both of these guns (and many other models). Although, I am not a certified SIG armorer, I have owned/ shot a variety of SIGs since 1989.
To say there were some quality differences would be an understatement (fit/ finish, machining of parts, tolerances, tool markings, etc.).
I am sure with the appropriate changes you mentioned, most of the current guns would work and could be servicable. But like someone else already said, if I am spending near $1K for a pistol I want a high quality gun.
Barring sending a new SIG classic series straight to Grey Guns, I would not carry-one for self-defense/ duty-gun, etc.
But to each his own.
SkiDevil
Well, I haven't experienced what you have after owning 9 SIGs in twelve years and seeing hundreds of them in training. In fact, my wifes new P239 is probably the nicest one that I have seen, or owned, and it also has the best trigger that I have felt on a SIG straight out of the box. But the box says that it was made on 12/2/10, so it must be a POS.:rolleyes:
"I am sure with the appropriate changes you mentioned, most of the current guns would work and could be servicable." Could be serviceable? You make it sound like they are a Hi-Point or something. And who pays 1k for a Classic series that isn't blinged out? I can get one with NS, SRT and short trigger for less than $700.
I carry a gun for a living, and if I didn't trust something 100%, believe me, I wouldn't carry it. I've seen enough makes and models, in all service calibers, to know what to trust and what not to. I've seen G22's malfunction with the lights, various Glock .40's frame rails breaking off, a Glock in .357 kb, M&P's mag baseplates fall off and spilling it's contents on the ground. I've seen an M&P's slide that locked to the rear and wouldn't go back forward, resulting in it having to go back to S&W.
Does that make any of those makes or models bad guns? Nope! Does all of the negative talk on the errornet about Beretta's make them a shit gun? Nope! All man made things break or have imperfections. If I was required to, I would carry a Glock, M&P or Beretta without any heart ache despite seeing the issues that I have with them, but I prefer SIGs so that is what I carry. In my experience (others may vary), the Classic series SIGs and anything from H&K have been the most reliable sidearms.
Well, I haven't experienced what you have after owning 9 SIGs in twelve years and seeing hundreds of them in training. In fact, my wifes new P239 is probably the nicest one that I have seen, or owned, and it also has the best trigger that I have felt on a SIG straight out of the box. But the box says that it was made on 12/2/10, so it must be a POS.:rolleyes:
And you have how many rounds through it? I thought so.
Also, till you post a picture of the date label I'm going to call BS on this one. I have seen firearms manufacturers do some very incredible things but getting a pistol from the factory to a distributor then to a retailer and finally into an end user's hands after a Brady wait in 19 days is not one of them.
And you have how many rounds through it? I thought so.
Also, till you post a picture of the date label I'm going to call BS on this one. I have seen firearms manufacturers do some very incredible things but getting a pistol from the factory to a distributor then to a retailer and finally into an end user's hands after a Brady wait in 19 days is not one of them.
Well, since the pistol is brand new, and it's the Holidays, and my life doesn't revolve around guns, we have 200 rounds of WWB through it. Are new SIGs supposed to fail right away, or am I missing something? I will still stand by statement that it has the best finish and trigger out of the box, that I have seen and felt on a SIG.
I wasn't going to respond to you (who are you anyway? :rolleyes:), but with you calling me a liar and with the arrogance of your post, I will post a reply just to fulfill your curiousness.
Maybe I just get pistols that I want a little quicker than you do? I'm sorry that you don't have that capability. What is this "wait" that you speak of?
Well, here is your "proof." Any other questions, Chief?
http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/9712/dscf4014u.jpg
Here's another photo of the pistol. P239 SAS 9mm, 2-tone, NS, SRT and short trigger. I'm so impressed with this one that I'm going to buy another, with the same options but with an all black finish.
http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/4212/dscf4000.jpg
Have a great day.
Also, till you post a picture of the date label I'm going to call BS on this one. I have seen firearms manufacturers do some very incredible things but getting a pistol from the factory to a distributor then to a retailer and finally into an end user's hands after a Brady wait in 19 days is not one of them.
I can leave the store with a gun within about 2 hours after it arrives from UPS.
Not every state has a mandatory waiting period anymore. And some states that have a waiting period allow you to skip the waiting period if you have a permit.
mrosamilia
12-23-10, 10:55
We have no waiting period in my county in Pa I walk in and walk out.
John_Wayne777
12-23-10, 11:06
Gentlemen, let's try to keep the thread from devolving into personal attacks.
mrosamilia
12-23-10, 12:03
Sorry if I offended anyone that was not my intention
Well, I'm a SIG LE Armorer, and I see what most others see. real quality issues. Is it still an acceptable gun? Sure, if money is no object. But I see more malfunctions and lower quality and it just isn't worth the price. I'm down to my last P228 and it's great. I've purchased two 229's to try and replace my 228 and my 21 year old P7m13. A 229R and a 229 Gen2SAS. The both worked find, but the stock triggers were terrible, and quality was lacking. And oh...how I hated those stupid ****ing gnurled slide pins (now fixed I know, but there are plenty of those in inventories). I know armorers at larger shops who setup presses just to remove those damn pins. That's not a huge issue, but it's indicative of the quality problems. I talked to a Postal armorer who was sending roughly 1 out of every 5 guns back for various reasons.
So, I hate to say it. when my 228 finally dies it'll be an M&P Compact for me. I've already bought it. It's not nearly so elegant as some of the older guns like 228's, 226's, older 229's, 220's. But the price differential no longer gets the job done for me.
And oh...how I hated those stupid ****ing gnurled slide pins (now fixed I know, but there are plenty of those in inventories). I know armorers at larger shops who setup presses just to remove those damn pins. That's not a huge issue, but it's indicative of the quality problems.
I don't see how it matters one bit. The Firing Pin Position Pin on the stainless slides are only meant to be replaced if you have to replace the firing pin, firing pin block or related springs. Which according to the parts replacement schedule is at 20,000 rounds.
Now the trigger quality, I agree was horrible from the switch to the MIM hammer (sometime in 2008 IIRC) until mid-2009 when they redid the mold to move the seam from the middle of the hammer to the side. Newer Sigs don't have that issue and have excellent trigger pulls.
I don't see how it matters one bit
It matters because a lot of the time, you literally could not get the pins out without a press. High use and big shops had that problem. According to my armorer instructor, you had two choices: Get a press to push it out, or send it back to SIG to push it out. He admitted it was a problem for them. I had to send a number of them back, as have lots of other armorers that I've talked to. So, it may not matter to you, but I've met some guys who had to have quite a few guns out of service for exactly that reason.
Well, I'm a SIG LE Armorer, and I see what most others see. real quality issues. Is it still an acceptable gun? Sure, if money is no object. But I see more malfunctions and lower quality and it just isn't worth the price.
Same here. Been working on, training with, and carrying Sigs on duty for about 15 years now. Simply put, new Sigs just aren't lasting as long, nor are they as good right out of the box. Adjusted for inflation, W. German Sigs would still run you about the price of a new plain jane Sig Sauer......and they were of better quality.
I know armorers at larger shops who setup presses just to remove those damn pins. That's not a huge issue, but it's indicative of the quality problems.
We have a Dillon that we modified to push out the solid pins. We got the idea from the Air Mashalls. I've had a few broken solid pins, broken firing pins, and other problems with milled slides over the years to require taking them apart for out of scheduled servicing. Particularly with the .40 and .357 Sigs. If you only go through about 10k rounds in your pistol's life time, then you probably will never have to change out roll pins or solid pins. If you are a hard user, then you WILL have to change out the pins in both stamped slides and milled slides.
I talked to a Postal armorer who was sending roughly 1 out of every 5 guns back for various reasons.
We had better luck with our 350 P229R DHS order in 2009, but we still had to send 27 back to Sig for out of box problems. Our sister agencies had much better luck with their orders of Glock 22s, and HK P2000s.
So, I hate to say it. when my 228 finally dies it'll be an M&P Compact for me. I've already bought it. It's not nearly so elegant as some of the older guns like 228's, 226's, older 229's, 220's. But the price differential no longer gets the job done for me.
The Sig P-Series is an excellent design, and it can compete in this market if management would understand what a customer interested in the brand wants. Which is a high quality hammer fired pistol with the best out of box trigger on the market, and able to compete in reliability and durability with the best service pistols out there. If Sig would produce pistols like this again, then buyers would be willing to pay $1000-$1500 per pistol. H&K 45s are selling well, and they run between $1000-$1200 per pistol because they are probably the best .45acp service pistol on the market. If the classic P-series can't survive, then an carefully designed successor needs to be introduced to compete in this market. Sig hasn't really found a successful successor, and they don't have anything that seems to be able to fill this role in the near future. In the early 1970s when the first P220 was introduced, it was highly advanced for its time. Now days, the design is simply too expensive to manufacture with great care to make it of excellent quality and compete price-wise with brands such as H&K.
Alpha Sierra
12-23-10, 19:16
I had a nice, W German 226. I sold it within six months after deciding that it isn't a gun so nice that it is worth changing the grip that I have used successfully with every other semi auto pistol that I have ever fired or owned. The location of the slide release lever is awful and I will never own another SIG pistol so long as that lever remains where it is.
My department of 5000+ officers issues SIG pistols only for duty use. Mostly 226's and 229's. I have yet to see one crap out at the range. Not to say it has not ever happened, just saying I have not seen one yet do so.
I own 3 sig pistols, a 226 DAK, 239 DAK, and a 250. All have ran flawlessly except the 250 which gave me some stove pipes the first few hundread rounds through it.
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