View Full Version : DREAM Act Fails in Senate, 55 to 41...
http://colorlines.com/archives/2010/12/dream_act_fails_in_senate_55-41.html
GOOD.
Now get the **** out of the country and go stand in line behind the people waiting to come here LEGALLY.
I love this picture.
http://colorlines.com/assets_c/2010/12/dreamact_defeat121810-thumb-640xauto-1836.jpg
Looks like it was key Senate Democrats who changed their positions that killed this one. Wonder if they are concerned about a 2012 "tea party" like the House just had.
Seems the Rats might be abandoning the Obama ship.
picture
Nothing says "I love and understand the culture of the country of which I am attempting to become an assimilated productive citizen" like disgracing their flag by making a friggin' robeponchomoomoodress out of it.
That fat chick looks unpleasant.
http://ts4.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=394453851807&id=52e55997b5a31283465612b4d2d94148
Belmont31R
12-18-10, 13:30
Who is that bitch wearing our flag as a ****ing costume? :mad:
Nice to see democrats have such respect for our country they would parade that around in the Capital building as a prop.
"Social spending" is one thing but its absolutely disgusting how politicians go so far out of their way to defend illegal alien criminal invaders. This is one of the most basic responsibilities the government has, and they toss is aside like its a joke. No respect for our sovereignty? Its not even about immigration for me...Im only 2nd gen American myself, and my family came over in 1947. However they did it legally, and didn't turn it into a God damn spectacle wearing our flag as costume for wanting to become citizens.
I don't give a ****, either, if their home country sucks. Either do it legally or try to change your own country while you wait in line. If you do come here don't try to turn it into the shit hole you left. All my relatives learned English, and for all intents and purposes were just like every other American. They didn't plaster foreign flags all over their cars, refuse to learn the language, and act like they were "back home". They didn't demand everything be printed in their language.
These ****ers are getting brazen too. I had one ask for money since he was running on a completely bald tire, and didn't have the change to get it swapped out for a good tire. My wife avoids gas stations in the morning because all the work crews are there getting snacks for the day, and see has to walk past 30 mexicans gawking and cat calling at her. **** them.
this really doesn't sound like it was all that unreasonable to me.. how many sub-16 year olds crossed the border by themselves? this act targeted the children of illegal immigrants- the ones drug across the border by their parents.
im fine with closing the borders, im fine with putting up a fence, i'm fine with adopting australian-esque immigration policies and systems- i'm not fine with hating the individuals who make easy use of the HUGE holes our government has left them, nor screwing up the lives of their children.
I really didn't have a problem with most of the DREAM act. Most of those kids are victims of their parent's crimes, any many if not most are completely Americanized. I guess some people are still hoping to find and deport 20 million people, even the ones that have no memory of ever being in another country. :rolleyes:
GermanSynergy
12-18-10, 14:56
Having come to this country LEGALLY, I say **** them and the politicans that cater to them.
Pandering to illegal alien criminals dilutes the value of American citizenship, and I'm sick of hearing people rationalize their crimes. Illegal means illegal.
These illegals won't get a scintilla of sympathy from me.
*Secure the border.
*English as a national language.
*Deport those found to be here illegally.
*Secure the border.
*English as a national language.
*Deport those found to be here illegally.
i'm fine with all three of these things. but why the hatred toward the individual? he's only here because YOUR GOVERNMENT REFUSES TO DO THESE THREE THINGS.
GermanSynergy
12-18-10, 15:06
I guess seeing the fat chick using Old Glory as a costume pissed me off. Point taken. ;)
My mom is currently a German national and is still going thru the ringer of getting citizenship, etc. I was telling her she should have come over illegally many years ago, so now she'd have a powerful lobby behind her in Washington.
i'm fine with all three of these things. but why the hatred toward the individual? he's only here because YOUR GOVERNMENT REFUSES TO DO THESE THREE THINGS.
Whootsinator
12-18-10, 15:12
I am in agreement with Bkb on this one. In their situation you would all do the same thing they have done, because it is an option with many rewards and very few repercussions. Is it right? No, it isn't... But neither is a stray dog knocking over your trashcans for some food. He does it because it is an option to get food, and he is hungry. Secure the trashcans and it won't happen any more.
Before any PC freaks get up in arms, no I am not calling illegal aliens stray dogs.
Belmont31R
12-18-10, 15:31
this really doesn't sound like it was all that unreasonable to me.. how many sub-16 year olds crossed the border by themselves? this act targeted the children of illegal immigrants- the ones drug across the border by their parents.
im fine with closing the borders, im fine with putting up a fence, i'm fine with adopting australian-esque immigration policies and systems- i'm not fine with hating the individuals who make easy use of the HUGE holes our government has left them, nor screwing up the lives of their children.
Its an incentive for more illegal immigration.
I also don't want illegal aliens in the military. Dems seem hellbent on turning the military into their little version of San Fransisco with guns. Illegal aliens, gays, women in the same roles as men, ect.
Remember the amnesty under Reagan was supposed to solve illegal immigration, and then we could tough on it. Well doing things like this is nothing but an incentive for the next "gracious" thing our gov does for the illegals. Just be in at the right time, and you'll get citizenship. In this case their kids.
I also view it as a stepping stone for further forms of amnesty in the future. Whats to make anyone stop at this? Illegal aliens in the military? How do we go from defending our country against illegal aliens to illegal aliens supposedly defending us now?
Sure it would suck for a kid to get booted out after having been raised here most of his life but respecting our sovereignty is more important. If we can't respect that then we have nothing.
Remember the amnesty under Reagan was supposed to solve illegal immigration, and then we could tough on it. Well doing things like this is nothing but an incentive for the next "gracious" thing our gov does for the illegals. Just be in at the right time, and you'll get citizenship. In this case their kids.
Yeah but we didn't get tough, that ship has loooong since sailed. We screwed ourselves by letting it happen for decades. Practically speaking, I really don't see another alternative provided that we actually do get tough and secure our borders/revamp the legal immigration system.
this really doesn't sound like it was all that unreasonable to me.. how many sub-16 year olds crossed the border by themselves? this act targeted the children of illegal immigrants- the ones drug across the border by their parents.
Why should they get to cut in line ahead of everyone else doing it the right way?
Why should they get rewarded for their parents coming here illegally?
Why should we have to suffer the burden they create?
Why can't they simply do what every other foreigner who comes here legally does?
Why should US citizens lose a college placement to a Dreamer?
And more to the point, why haven't they ALL been rounded up, arrested and deported?
That is the part I find the most unreasonable about all of this.
Belmont31R
12-18-10, 16:19
Yeah but we didn't get tough, that ship has loooong since sailed. We screwed ourselves by letting it happen for decades. Practically speaking, I really don't see another alternative provided that we actually do get tough and secure our borders/revamp the legal immigration system.
We are never going to be able to deport 20 million illegals but I don't think letting them join the military is the answer. Most definately not.
I also don't like the college thing, either, since they are most likely going to get a "free" education there, too. It pisses me off that hardworking citizens get shit on while illegals are getting a greased slide to a free life basically.
Also if they are illegal aliens why are they in our K-12 schools anyways? So we're paying for that, too, for this dream act BS to work in the first place.
I think its about time someone look out after the average working people who get shit on while low income people and illegals are ever increasingly getting more and more from the rest of us at our cost. My buddy had to take out huge student loans to go to school since his parents made enough he couldn't get aid yet not enough they could pay for him to go (went to UCLA). Yet if you're a minority or poor its paid for. Dont speak English fully? They'll provide you with a one on one assistant the entire time you are there to help with your work and pave the road to graduation. He said some of them in his classes would barely do any work in the class yet always passed. Even in high schools they have modified curriculum and special classes for non-English speakers which is another blatant example of the double standard. Probably the kids the dream act is targeting since they obviously never learned English at home.
Our country is becoming a self destructive joke, and the joke is on the regular people who actually work for a living that made something of their lives.
I really didn't have a problem with most of the DREAM act. Most of those kids are victims of their parent's crimes, any many if not most are completely Americanized. I guess some people are still hoping to find and deport 20 million people, even the ones that have no memory of ever being in another country. :rolleyes:
They are not victims, they are at best unwilling participants in the crime. Our country and it's citizens are the victims.
And yes, I expect our LE to arrest all criminals. They sure as shit try and catch all the speeders and people who run red lights. So don't give me that "we don't have the resources" song and dance because illegals seem to be the ONLY criminals we don't go after.
And sure it sucks for them if they get deported. But they should blame their parents who created the situation and they have no "right" to be here.
We are never going to be able to deport 20 million illegals but I don't think letting them join the military is the answer.
How about if we arrest them, fine them and assign them to prison work crews to fund their deportation? We potentially 20 million workers as a source of free labor we could probably build that wall.
i'm fine with all three of these things. but why the hatred toward the individual? he's only here because YOUR GOVERNMENT REFUSES TO DO THESE THREE THINGS.
Because the individual is the one who created the problem by coming here illegally. He is the criminal. The fact that the government refuses to do anything about it doesn't make the individual any less of a criminal.
If he wants to not be hated, let him come here legally like everyone else.
Is it right? No, it isn't...
And I understand why the do it. That isn't the issue. They do what they do because it is best for them, same as bank robbers.
And we should be doing what we do, and that is arresting all the criminals.
It is bad enough that they are here illegally and causing a huge burden on the US tax payer. But to have the audacity to try and get our government to change the laws for their benefit is simply offensive. It pisses me off to no end.
Our government is not here to serve them, it is just another resource we pay for that they are using for their personal benefit.
QuietShootr
12-18-10, 16:30
I guess some people are still hoping to find and deport 20 million people, even the ones that have no memory of ever being in another country. :rolleyes:
Now THAT'S a sweet dream indeed. I picture buses and Ft. Benning style cattle cars heading south, a line as far as the eye can see. Police at every exit on the interstate, and military refueling points with secured perimeters, slit trenches to piss in, and MKTs reheating field ration packs.
Ahhh. It's Miller Time.
http://www.gifflix.com/files/7868c9eaa99d.gif
Why should they get to cut in line ahead of everyone else doing it the right way?
Why should they get rewarded for their parents coming here illegally?
they're not. they're being dealt with according to their situation. their situation is that they're ALREADY here, and have been since childhood. because they're not citizens, they generally work under the table and contribute nothing to what they're receiving, or just live on state entitlements. so if we can convert them from mooches into productive members of society, we're making progress. otherwise, you won't even know they're there to deport them, unless and until they get arrested- and then they still won't get deported.
Why should we have to suffer the burden they create?
that's what we're currently doing, whether we want to or not. thats what the bill is addressing- since they're already here, let's put them to productive use.
Why can't they simply do what every other foreigner who comes here legally does?
OBVIOUSLY it's a little too late.
Why should US citizens lose a college placement to a Dreamer?
these "dreamers" aren't gonna be going to stanford, holms.. or even state schools. and community colleges don't have limited enrollment.
And more to the point, why haven't they ALL been rounded up, arrested and deported?
5. don't ask me- ask your representative. if somebody could answer this one, all the others would be moot. but since this apparently WILL NOT ****ing happen, we've got to do something else.
Belmont31R
12-18-10, 16:58
they're not. they're being dealt with according to their situation. their situation is that they're ALREADY here, and have been since childhood. because they're not citizens, they generally work under the table and contribute nothing to what they're receiving, or just live on state entitlements. so if we can convert them from mooches into productive members of society, we're making progress. otherwise, you won't even know they're there to deport them, unless and until they get arrested- and then they still won't get deported.
that's what we're currently doing, whether we want to or not. thats what the bill is addressing- since they're already here, let's put them to productive use.
OBVIOUSLY it's a little too late.
these "dreamers" aren't gonna be going to stanford, holms.. or even state schools. and community colleges don't have limited enrollment.
5. don't ask me- ask your representative. if somebody could answer this one, all the others would be moot. but since this apparently WILL NOT ****ing happen, we've got to do something else.
So because they are already here we should just ignore the fact they are violating the law?
Why are illegals on welfare?
As long as they get across the border we should welcome them with open arms? Is this like a gauntlet event where if they make it trekking across the desert for a week we're there waiting with a college education, money and job?
What makes you think illegals aren't in state schools? Low income minorities can go to school for free. If you're white middle class you have to pay out the ass, and its harder to get in.
If you make incentives for it all you are going to do is draw even more illegals here. Sure its a nice thing to do but its not the right thing to do to actually do something about this. Its not simply about the kids who got taken here at a young age. Theres tens of millions more on the other side with just another reason to come here...just like rushing across the border when labor starts and popping out a freshly minted American citizen....then the whole family gets to stay.
Surprisingly (or not) when you make it tough for illegals they tend to move away. The more we cater to them the more will come.
Business_Casual
12-18-10, 16:59
You do realize that if you make a minor child a citizen he can legally bring his entire family to the US - most of them immediately?
This was a scheme to buy enough votes to replace the ones they lost when they destroyed the housing industry, the banking industry, the auto industry, the health care industry and the ability of the military to set their own membership policies.
How much destruction is enough for you, Bkbooo?
http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/255320/two-californias-victor-davis-hanson
B_C
well it didn't pass, so we can all breath a sigh of relief. boy that sure was a close one!
short of routing out, arresting and deporting all of them- what do you gentlemen propose? this was an effort to make them productive. they're not productive right now.
would you rather just keep supporting them with your own sweat, if you can't get a full blown exodus?
Belmont31R
12-18-10, 17:05
You do realize that if you make a minor child a citizen he can legally bring his entire family to the US - most of them immediately?
This was a scheme to buy enough votes to replace the ones they lost when they destroyed the housing industry, the banking industry, the auto industry, the health care industry and the ability of the military to set their own membership policies.
How much destruction is enough for you, Bkbooo?
B_C
Yep, and if you try to deport an illegal alien with a family here it will be the next Harry Reid sob story about why we need to pass more laws.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-18-10, 17:18
We can be compassionate all day long, but in the end if this DREAM act had passed it would have been just another ****ing incentive to pack the hut into a Jansport and walk into New Mexico. Im glad it failed. Sorry your kid didn't get the DREAM act, should've become a citizen and he could've received any number or minority pandering scholarships out there.
Sen Graham said it best, “We’re not going to pass the DREAM Act or any other legalization program until we secure our borders.”
Belmont31R
12-18-10, 17:20
well it didn't pass, so we can all breath a sigh of relief. boy that sure was a close one!
short of routing out, arresting and deporting all of them- what do you gentlemen propose? this was an effort to make them productive. they're not productive right now.
would you rather just keep supporting them with your own sweat, if you can't get a full blown exodus?
You don't have to have a line of cattle cars to the border. Just stop giving incentives for them to come here, and if they are already here to stay here. Remember when the AZ law passed, and illegals were fleeing out of AZ? I think the same thing happened with the school laws in OK from a couple years ago.
Any place of education that gets Federal funds cannot enroll someone who is not here legally, and if they do start fining them. 100k dollar fine for each occurance of an employer with knowingly hiring an illegal or not verifying someones eligibility to work. 2nd occurance pull their business license.
We really don't have to do all much. Much just make, by law, extremely difficult for illegals to do anything here, and fine/punish people who employ them or enroll them in a school that gets tax money. No business would dare hire an illegal if they faced huge fines or loss of their business license because they wanted to break the law. Ive had to verify my eligibility every place I have ever worked at.
But the dream act is really quite stupid. Imagine if at some point we get a president with balls, and he sends the military to the border. We are going to have illegal aliens guarding our border? The thing is laughable and an insult.
But no there is no overnight solution, and no matter what we do we are never going to get rid of them all.
Business_Casual
12-18-10, 17:22
well it didn't pass, so we can all breath a sigh of relief. boy that sure was a close one!
short of routing out, arresting and deporting all of them- what do you gentlemen propose? this was an effort to make them productive. they're not productive right now.
would you rather just keep supporting them with your own sweat, if you can't get a full blown exodus?
That's a cop out, my friend. Just because it is hard doesn't mean it can't be done. There are any number of policy proposals for dealing with the illegals. More to the point, if you simply stop tolerating them and start enforcing the existing laws, a very large part of the problem will solve itself. Just throwing up your hands and declaring it difficult is not an option.
B_C
And sure it sucks for them if they get deported. But they should blame their parents who created the situation and they have no "right" to be here.
The US government and by proxy it's citizens have been more than complicit in creating that situation.
That's a cop out, my friend. Just because it is hard doesn't mean it can't be done. There are any number of policy proposals for dealing with the illegals. More to the point, if you simply stop tolerating them and start enforcing the existing laws, a very large part of the problem will solve itself. Just throwing up your hands and declaring it difficult is not an option.
B_C
It's not a cop out, it's being practical just like Reagan was trying to be only we had no follow through and here we are 20,000,000 or 30,000,000 illegals later and counting... I know it sounds cool to say "Round 'em up!" and you'd be on the right side of the issue but being right isn't always a workable solution. Just like I want guns out of the hands of all criminals but how far are we willing to go to make it happen? Ponder that question.
kaiservontexas
12-18-10, 18:43
I know this is un-pc.
I live in Texas. I loath illegals. I loath the politicals who pander and try to buy them. I loath the fact they are exploited, and do not think for one second they are not exploited. They are exploited when it comes to working to criminal enterprises such as human trafficing and prostituting little girls. Oh yes they love to pimp little girls they snag in Mexico in bars in our nation. It makes the news about once every seasonal cycle of the year. If anybody actually cared about people they would loath it too because anything else is just supporting an exploitive system of dehumanization and crime. I see it everyday. They need to be deported, and if somebody wants to come here legally I am all for it. I do mean legally. I am also against anchor-babies.
/end of my rant
they're not. they're being dealt with according to their situation. their situation is that they're ALREADY here, and have been since childhood. because they're not citizens, they generally work under the table and contribute nothing to what they're receiving, or just live on state entitlements. so if we can convert them from mooches into productive members of society, we're making progress. otherwise, you won't even know they're there to deport them, unless and until they get arrested- and then they still won't get deported.
Their situation is they are illegals. So they are no different from any other illegal who is already here. They should get NOTHING in terms of special consideration.
that's what we're currently doing, whether we want to or not. thats what the bill is addressing- since they're already here, let's put them to productive use.
Let's let people who drive too fast deliver the mail. Or instead we can treat them all like the criminals they are and have consequences.
OBVIOUSLY it's a little too late.
Nonsense, let them leave the country and start the legal immigration process.
these "dreamers" aren't gonna be going to stanford, holms.. or even state schools. and community colleges don't have limited enrollment.
That is right up there with "doing jobs Americans won't do" and it's bullshit. They take up resources that could be applied to US citizens. Do you really think they are all paying for college? How about we give all those resourced to underprivileged US citizens.
5. don't ask me- ask your representative. if somebody could answer this one, all the others would be moot. but since this apparently WILL NOT ****ing happen, we've got to do something else.
I can answer, because popular opinion is to feel sorry for them and cut them a break. So nobody is going to do anything except pander to them.
short of routing out, arresting and deporting all of them- what do you gentlemen propose?
Actually I'm not proposing anything other than just that. Arrest and deport upon detection. Won't get them all, but we might as well get started.
The US government and by proxy it's citizens have been more than complicit in creating that situation.
What a giant steaming pile.
First the US government RARELY acts according to the wishes of it's citizens.
Second, we have LAWS that make them illegal so we are hardly complicit of anything beyond NOT enforcing those laws.
If we DIDN'T have such laws, then we would be partially to blame.
Business_Casual
12-18-10, 19:28
It's not a cop out, it's being practical just like Reagan was trying to be only we had no follow through and here we are 20,000,000 or 30,000,000 illegals later and counting... I know it sounds cool to say "Round 'em up!" and you'd be on the right side of the issue but being right isn't always a workable solution. Just like I want guns out of the hands of all criminals but how far are we willing to go to make it happen? Ponder that question.
If this is the quality of the amnesty argument, I am confident of rhetorical victory.
B_C
it would be cool if we could just give everybody everything they wanted i guess, but there's an awful lot of people who've worked very hard to get into this country . I really don't see why people who've come in illegally should get money and resources that should be allotted to those who've taken the more honorable path.
Actually I'm not proposing anything other than just that. Arrest and deport upon detection. Won't get them all, but we might as well get started.
then why are you bothering to argue about it? that's not going to happen, but you will not be satisfied with any other answer... so there's basically no way you can offer anything constructive to this conversation.
to reiterate, i'm not even opposed to your proposition. but it's simply not going to happen.
RogerinTPA
12-18-10, 19:46
Having come to this country LEGALLY, I say **** them and the politicans that cater to them.
Pandering to illegal alien criminals dilutes the value of American citizenship, and I'm sick of hearing people rationalize their crimes. Illegal means illegal.
These illegals won't get a scintilla of sympathy from me.
*Secure the border.
*English as a national language.
*Deport those found to be here illegally.
This...and the use of the term "Undocumented worker" or "Undocumented Immigrant" as if they over stayed a Visa or some shit. They are "Illegal Aliens" who are illegally in this country. Fine US companies 10K a head for every illegal found on the premises, will go along way to controlling that border.
FWIW: The Dream Act being shot down is an excellent outcome.
This...and the use of the term "Undocumented worker" or "Undocumented Immigrant" as if they over stayed a Visa or some shit. They are "Illegal Aliens" who are illegally in this country. Fine US companies 10K a head for every illegal found on the premises, will go along way to controlling that border.
and does that include construction contractors?
RogerinTPA
12-18-10, 20:03
and does that include construction contractors?
I meant no exclusions or draw no quarter, no matter what they do. Deport all illegal aliens, with children, and let them fill out the paper work and get in line behind everyone else seeking "legal" immigration into the United States. Maybe it will free up some jobs that unemployed Americans will be willing to do.
I was so happy to hear this news. My daughter attends college at one of San Antonio's local universities. Some of the students have been hunger striking trying to get the DREAM Act passed. I guess I'm sick and tired of the free rides that some people get and they aren't even citizens. TX wants to pass laws that would make illegals persona non grata. In other words they will have no legal standing in the courts. No lawsuits seeking judgments for accidents or anything else. Now that is a DREAM Act I can get behind. Here is a link to the proposal (http://theghostfighters.wordpress.com/category/texas-state-rep-leo-berman-r-tyler-introduced-measure-to-strip-illegals-of-access-to-texas-courts%E2%80%8F/) Now I sympathize with the kids who were brought here illegally but what have they done to rectify the situation.
N O T H I N G! ! !
I really liked this picture from the San Antonio Times.
http://www.mysanantonio.com/mediaManager/?controllerName=image&action=get&id=481250&width=628&height=471
and does that include construction contractors?
Fort Sam has spent a few billion dollars building barracks and a hospital addition. I wonder how many of the construction workers are illegals? I've rocked the boat enough in my command so I haven't asked that question yet. But I think I know the answer :laugh: .
*Secure the border.
*English as a national language.
*Deport those found to be here illegally.
1. no shit.
2. It pretty much already is. You can't do shit these days unless you can communicate.
3. Stupid, stupid, stupid. That leads to unnecessary violence through rioting and such.
this really doesn't sound like it was all that unreasonable to me.. how many sub-16 year olds crossed the border by themselves? this act targeted the children of illegal immigrants- the ones drug across the border by their parents..
The parentos brought the childrenos across the border illegally hoping to get their kids US citizenship. If we reward that behavior (by giving the kids US citizenship under the theory that 'it is not their fault'), then we will just get another huge wave of illegals bringing their kids here to get US citizenship.
And the cost in social services is huge because nearly all of them qualify for welfare, section 8 housing, food stamps, medicaid, etc.
3. Stupid, stupid, stupid. That leads to unnecessary violence through rioting and such.
Then shoot the ****ers. All of them. I am not going to tolerate illegal aliens, who are criminals by definition, rioting because they want something that they are not legally entitled to. I don't care if you shoot them, use them to feed the dogs in the animal shelter, drop them out of a B-52 on Montezuma's Castle, or whatever. Just get the wrong doers out of here. We will enjoy a lower crime rate, more jobs for Americans who have difficulty finding work, etc.
Deport them or plant them.
That will make a nice slogan for the 2012 Prez campaign.
If this is the quality of the amnesty argument, I am confident of rhetorical victory.
B_C
Your rhetorical victory will be... that nothing changes. You guys seem to be living in some fantasy land where we're going to detect and deport 20-30 million people. I wouldn't hold my breath until it happens.
Then shoot the ****ers. All of them. I am not going to tolerate illegal aliens, who are criminals by definition, rioting because they want something that they are not legally entitled to. I don't care if you shoot them, use them to feed the dogs in the animal shelter, drop them out of a B-52 on Montezuma's Castle, or whatever. Just get the wrong doers out of here. We will enjoy a lower crime rate, more jobs for Americans who have difficulty finding work, etc.
Deport them or plant them.
That will make a nice slogan for the 2012 Prez campaign.
Only if you want to be marginalized and made fun of.
The_War_Wagon
12-18-10, 21:40
Now THAT'S a sweet dream indeed. I picture buses and Ft. Benning style cattle cars heading south, a line as far as the eye can see. Police at every exit on the interstate, and military refueling points with secured perimeters, slit trenches to piss in, and MKTs reheating field ration packs.
Ahhh. It's Miller Time.
http://www.gifflix.com/files/7868c9eaa99d.gif
Damn straight - and at $50 an ear bounty for the ones who WON'T go willingly, we could put a LOTTA people back to WORK in this country CHEAP, hunting down the ones who DON'T belong! :D
Heavy Metal
12-18-10, 21:41
You don't need to deport that many.
Put the pressure from all sides and the ones you don't get will self-deport.
Fence, severe fines for illegal employers and round up and deport what you can. It all works together.
The perfect solution is as follows...
-Secure the borders with great efficiency
-grant amnesty for all illegal aliens already here
-make them all citizens to be on the grid
-when they're on the grid, they are susceptible to play by the rules
-fix social programs
-???
-profit
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-18-10, 21:54
The perfect solution is as follows...
-Secure the borders with great efficiency
-grant amnesty for all illegal aliens already here
-make them all citizens to be on the grid
-when they're on the grid, they are susceptible to play by the rules
-fix social programs
-???
-profit
It worked the first time right... I mean, there werent any illegals after the first amnesty was granted were there? Wait.....
It worked the first time right... I mean, there werent any illegals after the first amnesty was granted were there? Wait.....
It's in order. You must secure the borders first.
then why are you bothering to argue about it? that's not going to happen, but you will not be satisfied with any other answer... so there's basically no way you can offer anything constructive to this conversation.
to reiterate, i'm not even opposed to your proposition. but it's simply not going to happen.
So because my opinion isn't likely to be put into action it is no longer constructive to the conversation?
Seriously?
I guess we better stop talking about the Constitution and end 90% of the discussion of personal liberty on this forum then.
How about this. I have an opinion, you have an opinion. You are free to voice yours and I am free to voice mine. And while I think yours is borderline offensive, even I would stop short of saying you shouldn't be allowed to voice it because "I" deem it unlikely to happen or not constructive to a conversation on the topic.
I meant no exclusions or draw no quarter, no matter what they do. Deport all illegal aliens, with children, and let them fill out the paper work and get in line behind everyone else seeking "legal" immigration into the United States. Maybe it will free up some jobs that unemployed Americans will be willing to do.
Thank You. That is exactly what I'm talking about.
I figure 20 million illegals conservatively translates to 10 million jobs where an illegal has been hired instead of an American. And while we are at it, we should shut down all our NAFTA plants in Mexico and return those jobs to the US.
That is MY Dream Act.
I was so happy to hear this news. My daughter attends college at one of San Antonio's local universities. Some of the students have been hunger striking trying to get the DREAM Act passed. I guess I'm sick and tired of the free rides that some people get and they aren't even citizens. TX wants to pass laws that would make illegals persona non grata. In other words they will have no legal standing in the courts. No lawsuits seeking judgments for accidents or anything else. Now that is a DREAM Act I can get behind. Here is a link to the proposal (http://theghostfighters.wordpress.com/category/texas-state-rep-leo-berman-r-tyler-introduced-measure-to-strip-illegals-of-access-to-texas-courts%E2%80%8F/) Now I sympathize with the kids who were brought here illegally but what have they done to rectify the situation.
N O T H I N G! ! !
I really liked this picture from the San Antonio Times.
http://www.mysanantonio.com/mediaManager/?controllerName=image&action=get&id=481250&width=628&height=471
Only way that picture could be better is if ICE was escorting her out of the classroom so US taxpayers didn't have the burden of her education.
2. It pretty much already is. You can't do shit these days unless you can communicate.
Not true. I can spend an entire day in Miami and never hear English. Many Dade County civic and government meetings are now Spanish ONLY.
3. Stupid, stupid, stupid. That leads to unnecessary violence through rioting and such.
Well gee we better stop arresting black criminals so there won't be any riots. In fact let's stop arresting ALL criminals and then nobody will complain. Way to let law and order be held hostage by the special interests.
Talk about stupid.
:rolleyes:
The perfect solution is as follows...
-Secure the borders with great efficiency
-grant amnesty for all illegal aliens already here
-make them all citizens to be on the grid
-when they're on the grid, they are susceptible to play by the rules
-fix social programs
-???
-profit
Heavy Metal has a much better plan.
So because my opinion isn't likely to be put into action it is no longer constructive to the conversation?
Seriously?
I guess we better stop talking about the Constitution and end 90% of the discussion of personal liberty on this forum then.
How about this. I have an opinion, you have an opinion. You are free to voice yours and I am free to voice mine. And while I think yours is borderline offensive, even I would stop short of saying you shouldn't be allowed to voice it because "I" deem it unlikely to happen or not constructive to a conversation on the topic.
you know what, aug? **** off. your insistence on being hostile turns pleasant debate into more trouble than it's worth, which is probably your goal. i've presented strong opinions, but i haven't been the least bit hostile. i even told you i agreed with you.
but my statement stands on it's own, i don't need to ****ing explain it. you can continue to deliberately misconstrue it all you want, and you can continue to debate all you want. all i did was point something out.
two words: bar fight. you'd be amazed how much aggression you can vent in a good ol' fashioned bare-knuckles brawl. give it a try sometime.
Well gee we better stop arresting black criminals so there won't be any riots. In fact let's stop arresting ALL criminals and then nobody will complain. Way to let law and order be held hostage by the special interests.
What kind of analogy is this?
You have no idea of the backlash this would create, in forcefully deporting illegal immigrants, specifically the Mexicans, which are here in GREAT numbers.
you know what, aug? **** off. your insistence on being hostile turns pleasant debate into more trouble than it's worth, which is probably your goal. i've presented strong opinions, but i haven't been the least bit hostile. i even told you i agreed with you.
No, I'm not being hostile. You have the nerve to state my opinion isn't of value. And I haven't been hostile to "you" but the issue very much pisses me off.
I have been more than polite, noting that your view is almost offensive is not being hostile, it is me being honest. Funny how you are allowed to present "strong opinions" and I am expected to be pleasant but if "I" present strong opinions I should "**** off."
but my statement stands on it's own, i don't need to ****ing explain it. you can continue to deliberately misconstrue it all you want, and you can continue to debate all you want. all i did was point something out.
two words: bar fight. you'd be amazed how much aggression you can vent in a good ol' fashioned bare-knuckles brawl. give it a try sometime.
Well instead of pointing out what I supposedly misconstrued, you decided to instead tell me to **** off and suggested I get into a bar fight.
What kind of analogy is this?
You have no idea of the backlash this would create, in forcefully deporting illegal immigrants, specifically the Mexicans, which are here in GREAT numbers.
It is an analogy of let's not arrest criminals from Group A so they don't get upset. And just because we have a LOT of criminals doesn't mean we should stop arresting criminals.
Can we stay civil gentlemen? Race is a non issue when you talk about illegal immigrants. They come from everywhere. Everyone should be discussing how to deport every illegal male immigrant as well as every substandard female illegal (substandard = fat and/or ugly). I hope this idea lightens the mood some. If I failed then try this idea. Take some time to write a well thought out letter to your congress man and senators thanking them for voting against this measure. Then you can tell them your ideas on securing the border, identifying illegals, and finally deporting them as fast as possible. Release all of your angst in a constructive manner. Spewing venom on a forum solves nothing.
Here is Texas' solution
A Texas state lawmaker has introduced measures which would exclude illegal immigrants from essentially every walk of life in the state, 1200 WOAI news reports.
State Representative Leo Berman (R-Tyler) says his measures would restrict illegal immigrants from participating in many aspects of society or, in many cases, from making a living in the state, making it less likely that illegals will flock to Texas.
Here is link to full article.
http://theghostfighters.wordpress.com/category/texas-state-rep-leo-berman-r-tyler-introduced-measure-to-strip-illegals-of-access-to-texas-courts%E2%80%8F/
The perfect solution is as follows...
-Secure the borders with great efficiency
-grant amnesty for all illegal aliens already here
-make them all citizens to be on the grid
-when they're on the grid, they are susceptible to play by the rules
-fix social programs
That is idiotic.
Here is a better path:
0. Fire Janet Napolitano.
1. Secure borders.
2. Make living in the US intolerable for illegals. No jobs, no school, no social benefits, no legal rights, constantly pursued by ICE and local cops.
3. Make hiring illegals EXTREMELY PAINFUL for businesses.l
4. Deport.
5. Get the fed govt out of social programs. Turn that shit over to the states and balance the budget.
You have no idea of the backlash this would create, in forcefully deporting illegal immigrants, specifically the Mexicans, which are here in GREAT numbers.
I don't care. They are criminals. If they give us any trouble, shoot them.
i'm fine with all three of these things. but why the hatred toward the individual? he's only here because YOUR GOVERNMENT REFUSES TO DO THESE THREE THINGS.
So because the government didn't do it's job enforcing the laws then it's ok:rolleyes: I need some extra money for Christmas shoppping so I'm gonna go rob some banks and if the government won't do it's job then it's ok right ?
well it didn't pass, so we can all breath a sigh of relief. boy that sure was a close one!
short of routing out, arresting and deporting all of them- what do you gentlemen propose? this was an effort to make them productive. they're not productive right now.
why do i have to choose anything but deporatation?
why do i have to choose anything but deporatation?
Because somewhere between goons wearing monacles and knee high leather boots going door to rounding up illegals and a Meso-American reconquista of the US Southwest lies reality and policies that we might actually get Congress to consider that could fix this problem?
When has Congress actually fixed anything? If the laws as they presently exist were enforced, we wouldn't have 20 million illegal alien criminals here. Just enforce the law and penalize those who have broken it.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-19-10, 09:04
What kind of analogy is this?
You have no idea of the backlash this would create, in forcefully deporting illegal immigrants, specifically the Mexicans, which are here in GREAT numbers.
So when the rapists and child molesters say they will riot if they are arrested, we should avoid them at all costs and instead give them rights and continue to let more rapists and child molesters move here? Your logic is sickening and flawed. A criminal is a criminal is a criminal. If they wanna riot and stop making my tacos, well, here's my plan:
1. Make our own tacos, its really quite easy.
2. Shoot all illegal rioters. In the head. Riots will stop real quickly after about 500 dead criminals.
Business_Casual
12-19-10, 09:10
All we need to do is enforce existing laws - I don't think people realize the policies of the Feds and the sanctuary cities are in direct contravention of existing law.
B_C
RogerinTPA
12-19-10, 10:33
That is idiotic.
Here is a better path:
0. Fire Janet Napolitano.
1. Secure borders.
2. Make living in the US intolerable for illegals. No jobs, no school, no social benefits, no legal rights, constantly pursued by ICE and local cops.
3. Make hiring illegals EXTREMELY PAINFUL for businesses.l
4. Deport.
5. Get the fed govt out of social programs. Turn that shit over to the states and balance the budget.
Agreed.
To add:
-Allow individual state governors to allow and enforce local, state and Federal laws, to include immigration. Aren't they supposed to be doing that anyway?
- Feds stay out of State business unless requested to do so.
-Enact term limits for congress and senate.
C'mon guys we're allowing our discussion to be as fueled by raw emotion as the other side's argument is...and that's a sure fire way to lose the battle. Remember the opposing side controls the media and therefore means of discourse and we can't let them take the perceived high ground.
All the "shoot the ****ers" talk just plays into the hands of the whiney media who WANTS us to make this into a racial/hate issue so anyone who disagrees can be demonized and marginalized as radical nuts.
Further, nobody wants to live in a nation where the gov't rounds up groups of people and ships man-woman-child out like cattle. Living in some sort of police state is a bad deal - once they get the illegals, who will the round up next? Tyranny is tyranny, even if it starts in with an honest motivation of justice.
That said - I don't think we should tolerate or embrace illegals or grant easy amnesty. If illegals are caught or identified, they should be deported. It's still a crime and should be treated as such.
The first thing must be to secure the border in a way that stops the flow of more illegals into the county. Dealing with the ones here won't be very productive if 2 are coming in for every 1 that goes back.
From there, English is the only language of official communication. The only thing printed in other languages should be the instructions on how to follow the legal channels to immigrate. Employers need incentives to not hire illegals. Unemployed Americans need to get off their asses and work some of the tough jobs that are filled by illegals because we've become collectively too lazy and self-important to do. The closest thing to amnesty I would support would be a narrow window of time for people here illegally to apply/reapply for status that allows them to work here, or initialize the proceedings to become citizens - knowing full well they could still be denied and sent back. After that window, back to the playbook.
To me, the scariest part of the DREAM act is the desire to fill military ranks with newly minted non-Americans, regardless of race or national origin. When someone seeks out US citizenship through the legal channels, embraces our nation and its culture, and then wants to serve as a way to give back, I wholeheartedly support their efforts. But the thought of filling our military with what amounts to indentured servants working out their sentence, who have no loyalty to the country, the Constitution, or its people. You could argue it's similar to people joining to get college paid for, and in some ways it is - but those are American citizens who share our common culture and general beliefs. If the thought of a military filled with foreign nationals from a different culture doesn't worry you a little bit, then you're naive. Elements of tin-foil? Sure. But if push came to shove, do you think those guys are going to be loyal to the Constitution and American people, or to their masters holding a carrot on the other side of service? They'd round up your guns in a heartbeat (for example).
Ultimately this is whole thing boils down to cultural conflict. America is losing its narrative. Being "American" is meaning less and less, and is increasingly being sold as a negative trait by a subversive element hellbent on apologizing for the great nation we are/were. Immigration is not a bad thing at all but without coming here, assimilating, and integrating into our nation rather than setting up their own little third-world microcosm of substandard living in our cities.
Because somewhere between goons wearing monacles and knee high leather boots going door to rounding up illegals and a Meso-American reconquista of the US Southwest lies reality and policies that we might actually get Congress to consider that could fix this problem?
So if we choose to enforce the law as written (deportation) we are now jack booted nazis?
WTF is that?
How about every time we detect an illegal (traffic stop, investigation, etc.) we simply arrest, fine and deport them. You know, just like any other damn kind of criminal the police come across.
If a US citizen has a warrant for an unpaid judgment and is found by the cops they sure as hell arrest him upon detection. Does that mean those cops are JBTs?
So why can't we do EXACTLY THE SAME THING with illegals that are detected by law enforcement without being nazis?
I swear between the "there are too many of them to arrest" crowd and the "arresting them makes us nazis" crowd I don't know who is more offensive. Because NOBODY is suggesting the same approach to any other kind of criminal.
And the US government actively seeks and arrests US citizens in huge numbers every day. And if we can do it for people who owe back taxes and things like that, we can sure as hell do it for illegals who horribly burden the system.
Does anyone on the left have any idea what would happen to them if they entered, stayed in and worked in Mexico illegally, stole someone's identity to do it, and then protested by (a) flying the Mex flag upside down, (b) flying the US flag, or (c) posing as an ugly fat chick wearing a Mex flag tent dress at the Mex legislature?
I will tell you: Serious prison time.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-19-10, 14:41
So if we choose to enforce the law as written (deportation) we are now jack booted nazis?
WTF is that?
How about every time we detect an illegal (traffic stop, investigation, etc.) we simply arrest, fine and deport them. You know, just like any other damn kind of criminal the police come across.
If a US citizen has a warrant for an unpaid judgment and is found by the cops they sure as hell arrest him upon detection. Does that mean those cops are JBTs?
So why can't we do EXACTLY THE SAME THING with illegals that are detected by law enforcement without being nazis?
I swear between the "there are too many of them to arrest" crowd and the "arresting them makes us nazis" crowd I don't know who is more offensive. Because NOBODY is suggesting the same approach to any other kind of criminal.
And the US government actively seeks and arrests US citizens in huge numbers every day. And if we can do it for people who owe back taxes and things like that, we can sure as hell do it for illegals who horribly burden the system.
I wholeheartedly agree with this statement. Amen brother, it makes a lot of sense.
So if we choose to enforce the law as written (deportation) we are now jack booted nazis?
You say "if we choose" like that is some kind of possibility. It is a fantasy that will never happen.
How about every time we detect an illegal (traffic stop, investigation, etc.) we simply arrest, fine and deport them. You know, just like any other damn kind of criminal the police come across.
Meanwhile our southern border is completely open to a virtually unlimited number of Mexicans recrossing into the United States, so we basically turn law enforcement into sports fishing of human beings, wasting billions of dollars on this crap.
No, real solutions to this problem involve defending our borders, allowing more legal immigration, etc., not deporting the few people we catch. And yes actually deporting all illegals would require door to door sweeps and an effort on a scale of Nazi jew hunting during WWII which is why the comparison is drawn.
No, real solutions to this problem involve defending our borders, allowing more legal immigration, etc., not deporting the few people we catch. And yes actually deporting them all would require door to door sweeps and an effort on a scale of Nazi jew hunting during WWII which is why the comparison is drawn.
1. That is absurd. (I hope you don't have family in this situation.)
2. The only viable solutions include closing the border and kicking out the illegals. Anything else will just encourage another 30 million criminals to enter.
1. That is absurd.
What is absurd?
2. The only viable solutions include closing the border and kicking out the illegals.
Kicking out the illegals is never going to happen. Has never happened and will never happen. Actually securing the border and making it less welcoming here so that most leave voluntarily and provide easier ways for desirable immigrants to come here legally (those who are not completely unskilled/lazy/criminal) makes a ton of sense.
RogerinTPA
12-19-10, 18:12
Other things needed:
Repeal the Anchor Baby legislation. Unless one parent is a US Citizen, the alien parents of a child should be given a certificate of birth with the parents country of origin listed. That child should then be classified as a citizen of the parents country and not a US Citizen.
No parent will be allowed to enroll their child in a US school unless the parents AND the child are US Citizens or have Green card status or any other lawful status which allows them to remain in the US Legally.
Other things needed:
Repeal the Anchor Baby legislation. Unless one parent is a US Citizen, the alien parents of a child should be given a certificate of birth with the parents country of origin listed. That child should then be classified as a citizen of the parents country and not a US Citizen.
No parent will be allowed to enroll their child in a US school unless the parents AND the child are US Citizens or have Green card status or any other lawful status which allows them to remain in the US Legally.
That would require a consitutional amendment IIRC, as basically the interpretation of the 14th Amendment is what makes children of illegals born here US citizens.
Kicking out the illegals is never going to happen.
Look up "Operation Wetback" and learn some history. :o
You say "if we choose" like that is some kind of possibility. It is a fantasy that will never happen.
Doesn't mean it isn't possible.
Meanwhile our southern border is completely open to a virtually unlimited number of Mexicans recrossing into the United States, so we basically turn law enforcement into sports fishing of human beings, wasting billions of dollars on this crap.
No, real solutions to this problem involve defending our borders, allowing more legal immigration, etc., not deporting the few people we catch. And yes actually deporting all illegals would require door to door sweeps and an effort on a scale of Nazi jew hunting during WWII which is why the comparison is drawn.
And we should fix that too. And there are REAL solutions. Problem is too many people are going "Oh the poor illegals" to want to do anything realistic about the problem.
You could EASILY solve the problem if you were willing to do it. And all without Claymores, cattle cars or shooting them in the head.
All you have to do is the following:
1. Make being illegal in this country punishable by arrest, imprisonment and 12 months in a prison work crew. That alone will motivate a LOT of illegals to leave and stop them from coming in huge numbers.
2. Fine companies that knowingly hire illegals 10,000 per instance. That removes the financial incentive to hire illegals. This will further discourage illegals from coming here and will motivate even more to leave.
And for those who stay, well we now have FREE LABOR and HUGE FUNDING. Start building that wall. The more we fine and arrest, the more free labor and funding we have. After 5 years we'd probably be able to build a wall on the Northern border if we were inclined.
This would be extremely easy to implement, all we would need is a government and a population willing to do it.
Kicking out the illegals is never going to happen. Has never happened and will never happen.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wetback
Operation Wetback was a 1954 operation by the United States Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) to remove about one million illegal immigrants from the southwestern United States, focusing on Mexican nationals.
To quote Obama "YES WE CAN!"
:laugh:
Look up "Operation Wetback" and learn some history. :o
You learn some history, start by reading the article you posted. Most of the illegals who left the country because of Wetback did so voluntarily. Operation Wetback deported a small fraction of the illegals here, and was clearly not a sustained effort to deport all illegals in the United States. During it's short life it did use the kind of tactics that make deportation of all the illegals in the United States politically impossible though. In it's wake illegal immigration continued and increased.
And we should fix that too. And there are REAL solutions.
Yeah there are real solutions. Which is why people who claim to want to fix the problem should stop talking about mass deportation as if it is a solution. That is the entire point of my participation in the conversation.
I am all for taking steps to encourage people to leave voluntarily. I am not for another "war on X" with the police state tactics inherent.
Yeah there are real solutions. Which is why people who claim to want to fix the problem should stop talking about mass deportation as if it is a solution. That is the entire point of my participation in the conversation.
I am all for taking steps to encourage people to leave voluntarily. I am not for another "war on X" with the police state tactics inherent.
You seem to be thinking in terms of this massive door to door crackdown where we get them all in one shot. I don't think anyone, except those who oppose the idea, have that actual model in mind.
We don't pull over every single car to check for drunk drivers, we don't go door to door looking for drug dealers. That isn't how it works.
Arresting and deporting illegals would be done in exactly the same manner as dealing with every other criminal. You deal with them upon detection. The only thing that would actually change is we would do something about it when we find an illegal rather than simply not reporting it or doing anything about it.
We wouldn't get them all, just as we don't get all the drunk drivers, drug dealers or people that run red lights. But we would get the ones we get and actually do something about it.
Imagine for a moment it was "illegal" to drive drunk but all law enforcement across the country was unwilling to arrest anyone for it because nobody was willing to prosecute somebody for driving drunk. While some people still wouldn't do it (thus remaining law abiding and "legal") a LOT of people would do is. Some would be dangerously drunk and a threat to everyone else, some would just drive with a beer and while both would technically be "illegal" it really wouldn't deter anyone from doing it if there was no actual enforcement.
Well that is what we are currently doing with illegals. While technically criminals, there is no enforcement of the law and the only time illegals find themselves deported is when they get involved in other crimes and sometimes not even then.
What most reasonable people want is enforcement of the laws and a few changes which deter illegals from coming here and significantly limit their opportunities if they do so anyway.
We won't get all of them, but we will mostly solve the problem. And with the problems solved the few that remain will not be a significant issue anymore.
But making them "legal" is about like solving the problem of drunk drivers by simply making that legal or not enforcing the law that makes it illegal.
You seem to be thinking in terms of this massive door to door crackdown where we get them all in one shot.
That is exactly what Operation Wetback was a brief experiment with. So you and 500 grain disagreed with me that we had never "kicked out the illegals" (which I took to mean more or less most/all of them) and pointed to Operation Wetback as proof. Well, Operation Wetback barely scratched the surface back in the 1950s, when the problem was much smaller than it is today. Then you want to claim that isn't the kind of thing you were talking about. Then why did you bring it up?
Arresting and deporting illegals would be done in exactly the same manner as dealing with every other criminal. You deal with them upon detection.
Newsflash: We deport illegal aliens that get "detected" right now. Hundreds of thousands are deported every year, even with the sanctuary city problem.
What most reasonable people want is enforcement of the laws and a few changes which deter illegals from coming here and significantly limit their opportunities if they do so anyway.
And many of the ideas for how to limit their opportunities if they do so anyway involve national ID cards, federal biometric databases and other schemes that ought to scare people who don't like big government. Whatever we do we have to be careful that the solutions aren't worse than the problems. Businesses being broken for having hired illegals that have fraudulent documents, national ID card, weakened 4th amendment rights, these are just a few of the things we could get out of a solution to the illegal alien problem.
We wouldn't get them all, just as we don't get all the drunk drivers, drug dealers or people that run red lights. But we would get the ones we get and actually do something about it.
I don't think it's possible to pick worse examples to show effectiveness of law enforcement. "We wouldn't get them all" is an understatement to say the least. This isn't efficient and won't do much to reduce to population of illegals.
GermanSynergy
12-20-10, 12:18
The easiest way to have the problem correct itself would be to severely penalize businesses that hire illegals.
Crushing fines, criminal prosecutions, IRS audits, etc.
I don't think it's possible to pick worse examples to show effectiveness of law enforcement. "We wouldn't get them all" is an understatement to say the least. This isn't efficient and won't do much to reduce to population of illegals.
That is exactly what Operation Wetback was a brief experiment with. So you and 500 grain disagreed with me that we had never "kicked out the illegals" (which I took to mean more or less most/all of them) and pointed to Operation Wetback as proof. Well, Operation Wetback barely scratched the surface back in the 1950s, when the problem was much smaller than it is today. Then you want to claim that isn't the kind of thing you were talking about. Then why did you bring it up?
No, I was merely pointing out you were in error with your assertion that it had "never been done before." And then I stated how it could and would be done today IF anyone had the inclination to do it.
Newsflash: We deport illegal aliens that get "detected" right now. Hundreds of thousands are deported every year, even with the sanctuary city problem.
Yep, and that is an extremely small percentage of the ones who are detected, most are not even arrested and even fewer prosecuted. Pretty much the only illegals being deported currently are those who have committed other more serious crimes.
And many of the ideas for how to limit their opportunities if they do so anyway involve national ID cards, federal biometric databases and other schemes that ought to scare people who don't like big government. Whatever we do we have to be careful that the solutions aren't worse than the problems. Businesses being broken for having hired illegals that have fraudulent documents, national ID card, weakened 4th amendment rights, these are just a few of the things we could get out of a solution to the illegal alien problem.
We don't need any of that crap. We don't need it to find and prosecute US citizens who are late on child support, owe back taxes, drive drunk or any other crimes US citizens are regularly investigated, found and arrested for. The National ID crap is nothing more than the government wanting more control in order to consider fixing a problem it doesn't want to fix in the first place.
As for businesses being shut down over fake IDs, Traci Lords ring a bell? If the porn industry can be accountable for making sure the workers are all of age and have REAL state IDs then we can hold ANY business accountable.
In the meantime, once again the solutions are actually simple if you want to solve the problem.
1. Increase risk and remove reward for illegals by making them criminal who can and will be arrested, fined and sentenced to work crews upon detection.
2. Hold businesses who hire illegals accountable with heavy fines. We seem to be able to EASILY enforce current child labor laws with the current state IDs, if we can make sure workers are of legal age we can just as easily make sure they are US citizens.
And then arrest them as they are detected.
I don't think it's possible to pick worse examples to show effectiveness of law enforcement. "We wouldn't get them all" is an understatement to say the least. This isn't efficient and won't do much to reduce to population of illegals.
Nonsense.
If you put into place the other considerations I mentioned most would actually leave on their own. And no we wouldn't get them all, I was pointing that out for the "you will never get 100% of them" crowd.
But as with drunk drivers, the scenario of what we currently have vs. what would exist IF nobody was ever actually prosecuted for driving drunk is what I'm talking about. Drunk drivers ARE a problem but it is nowhere near as bad as if we didn't prosecute.
Well right now, as I said before that is pretty much exactly what we are doing.
If we addressed even half of them, that would be a HUGE improvement over what we have currently.
The easiest way to have the problem correct itself would be to severely penalize businesses that hire illegals.
Crushing fines, criminal prosecutions, IRS audits, etc.
Exactly, remove the incentive for coming here and they will stop doing it.
No, I was merely pointing out you were in error with your assertion that it had "never been done before."
Kicking out all the illegals has never been done before. That is a true statement and what I meant by my assertion. Operation Wetback was basically a public relations effort of a scale too small and of too short a duration to work. It failed. We still had illegal immigrants in the country in large numbers after it ended and still do to this day. It used (on a smaller scale than would be necessary to succeed) the kinds of tactics that would make a mass deportation strategy politically impossible.
I don't think it's possible to pick worse examples to show effectiveness of law enforcement. "We wouldn't get them all" is an understatement to say the least. This isn't efficient and won't do much to reduce to population of illegals.
LOL, bigtime.
If it is anything like our drug enforcement effort at least we will only spend billions of dollars we don't have on it and completely shred whats left of the 4th amendment. Oh and illegal immigrants will be no more common than say pot dealers, which are extremely rare in the United States because of our drug enforcement agencies right?
:o
We don't need any of that crap.
Well I can guarantee that kind of thing will be trotted out as part of any "comprehensive immigration reform" bill that has a chance of passing. The more I looked at the issue the more I think the safest thing is for the government to continue to do nothing, because a bunch of what they propose to do to "fix" things is worse than the problems we already have.
CarlosDJackal
12-20-10, 17:33
Nonsense.
If you put into place the other considerations I mentioned most would actually leave on their own. And no we wouldn't get them all, I was pointing that out for the "you will never get 100% of them" crowd.
But as with drunk drivers, the scenario of what we currently have vs. what would exist IF nobody was ever actually prosecuted for driving drunk is what I'm talking about. Drunk drivers ARE a problem but it is nowhere near as bad as if we didn't prosecute.
Well right now, as I said before that is pretty much exactly what we are doing.
If we addressed even half of them, that would be a HUGE improvement over what we have currently.
+1. As an Immigrant myself, taking an ostrich's way out is like allowing your ship to sink when you had the ability to pump out enough water to at least keep it afloat. Bullshit!!
Talk about a DEFEATIST attitude. "We're never going to get rid of all of them so let's just embrace them with open arms anyway" is not an acceptible course to take. I'll probably never keep the mice out of my basement, but that doesn't mean I'm going to stop plugging up the holes or putting the traps out.
I came to this country LEGALLY, applied for immigration LEGALLY, and earned my citizenship LEGALLY. If I can do it, so can these other assholes. JM2CW.
GermanSynergy
12-20-10, 17:50
You and me both.
+1. I cam to this country LEGALLY, applied for immigration LEGALLY, and earned my citizenship LEGALLY. If I can do it, so can these other assholes. JM2CW.
Kicking out all the illegals has never been done before.
Who said "all the illegals"? You stated that such deportations had never been done before and that isn't correct. Nobody was discussing things in terms of 100% complete deportation of ALL illegals. We simply noted it wouldn't be the first time we started deporting illegals in large numbers. Something close to a million.
LOL, bigtime.
If it is anything like our drug enforcement effort at least we will only spend billions of dollars we don't have on it and completely shred whats left of the 4th amendment. Oh and illegal immigrants will be no more common than say pot dealers, which are extremely rare in the United States because of our drug enforcement agencies right?
Yeah, if we wanted to do it the most inefficient way possible. I don't know where you get these notions of the Vast Roundup and now the War in Illegals. I already spelled out a very easy, virtually self funding way to solve the problem. We don't need to create a new Department of Deportation.
Well I can guarantee that kind of thing will be trotted out as part of any "comprehensive immigration reform" bill that has a chance of passing. The more I looked at the issue the more I think the safest thing is for the government to continue to do nothing, because a bunch of what they propose to do to "fix" things is worse than the problems we already have.
And on the other end of the spectrum, things like Amnesty, Dream Acts and let's just pretend we don't see them sure as hell aren't working either.
We don't need any major reforms, according to the laws we CURRENTLY HAVE, they are already criminals and DO NOT belong in the country. We just need to start actually enforcing those laws.
Something close to a million.
Those are propaganda numbers put out by INS in the 50s, and then recycled by pro-illegal propagandists today to hype up how "evil" it was. Only a tiny fraction of that number were actually deported.
Nobody was discussing things in terms of 100% complete deportation of ALL illegals.
Well I was certainly discussing it in terms of deporting enough people to make a dent in the numbers here, which has never been done before. Otherwise I wouldn't have said we have never done it and never will since we currently deport illegals and always have. Obviously I was not talking about simply rounding up a couple hundred thousand and trying to get a few hundred thousand more to self deport by employing a few hundred border patrol and immigration agents. I was talking about mass deportation of millions to tens of millions of illegals on a scale that has never been done and also a sustained policy lasting years, not some short lived PR op.
We don't need any major reforms, according to the laws we CURRENTLY HAVE, they are already criminals and DO NOT belong in the country. We just need to start actually enforcing those laws.
Yeah, and that isn't true. We would need to deport millions a year for years to seriously reduce the numbers of illegals in the United States. Even if we were magically able to seal the border tomorrow and make the number of illegals crossing into the country every year equal to zero.
Bolt_Overide
12-21-10, 02:22
Not at all unhappy this didnt pass. Theres a right way to do shit, and there shouldnt be an amnesty for those who dont.
Those are propaganda numbers put out by INS in the 50s, and then recycled by pro-illegal propagandists today to hype up how "evil" it was. Only a tiny fraction of that number were actually deported.
And your more reliable source for that is what?
Well I was certainly discussing it in terms of deporting enough people to make a dent in the numbers here, which has never been done before. Otherwise I wouldn't have said we have never done it and never will since we currently deport illegals and always have. Obviously I was not talking about simply rounding up a couple hundred thousand and trying to get a few hundred thousand more to self deport by employing a few hundred border patrol and immigration agents. I was talking about mass deportation of millions to tens of millions of illegals on a scale that has never been done and also a sustained policy lasting years, not some short lived PR op.
As were we all, but suddenly you raised the issue of "all illegals" so I was forced to address it.
Yeah, and that isn't true. We would need to deport millions a year for years to seriously reduce the numbers of illegals in the United States. Even if we were magically able to seal the border tomorrow and make the number of illegals crossing into the country every year equal to zero.
Once again you are correct ONLY if you insist upon doing things in the most ineffective manner possible. By removing the motivation to come here and increasing the risk of being here most will leave of their own accord.
Then we just start arresting the rest of them like we do with all other criminals who exist in large numbers. You seem to want to make simple things complicated in order for them to not work. It is usually what people do when they want something to fail in the first place.
I could take any law enforcement program that is currently working and make it completely untenable with a bunch of "chasing your own tail" consideration similar to those you insist would be necessary. And we do that often enough and that is why we no longer solve many law enforcement issues we used to solve with far less technology and man power. But that doesn't mean we have to do things in such a convoluted way.
And your more reliable source for that is what?
Read about Operation Wetback. Basically nobody believes the numbers put out by INS during that period.
As were we all, but suddenly you raised the issue of "all illegals" so I was forced to address it.
Whether you want to call it all, most, or just enough the point is we have never deported enough illegals over a long enough period of time to make a lasting difference. I doubt we are going to start now. That's a realistic assessment of the situation.
Guys like you and 500 grain want to pretend the problem of having 1 out of 20 people in the US here illegally is much smaller than it is and it would just be easily solved if we only did a simple 2-3 point plan. That's a pipedream.
Once again you are correct ONLY if you insist upon doing things in the most ineffective manner possible.
I don't insist on it, but the Federal government does. We can't even finish a simple fence, let alone make a commitment to fully secure the border. If/When we ever did that we would have to deport/encourage to leave millions of illegals every year for years. Once again I live in reality where the Federal government is basically paralyzed when it comes to necessary action and our political parties only seem to agree when it comes to me and other law abiding citizens being screwed and our rights and traditions being eroded.
Where do you live?
variablebinary
12-22-10, 05:24
Come here legally or GTFO. This is not rocket science.
If you are not a citizen you have NO rights. NONE! Piss off and take your border jumping parents with you.
I don't give a damn if you are white, Jewish, Mexican, Chinese or whatever the freak. All illegals GTFO.
If you are not a citizen you have NO rights. NONE!
That is absolutely correct, but the liberal left insists not only that people in the US illegally have constitutional rights, but also that foreigners in foreign lands have rights under the US constitution.
That is absolutely correct, but the liberal left insists not only that people in the US illegally have constitutional rights, but also that foreigners in foreign lands have rights under the US constitution.
Here I was thinking this whole time that those rights were granted by God silly me. ;)
Here I was thinking this whole time that those rights were granted by God silly me. ;)
They are.
The U.S. constitution is what protects them for Americans. Foreigners are on their own to build their own nations, establish governance, etc.
Also, even for US citizens criminal acts void certain rights. If a person commits a felony, he voids his right to liberty for a period of time, perhaps for life. If a person commits a very serious felony, he voids his right to life if certain conditions are met.
So the concept that a terror plot planner needs to have his U.S. constitutional rights read to him on some mountainside in western Pakistan is quite simply ridiculous.
CarlosDJackal
12-22-10, 12:49
Here I was thinking this whole time that those rights were granted by God silly me. ;)
God grants everyone the right to live as free. There is no indication that he said it was okay for someone to enter my home, raid my refrigerator, sleep in my bed, use my bathroom, wear my clothes, track mud all over my floor, and use the internet connection I pay for without my permission. If you are in need of help, ask and maybe I will give you food, clothes, and a place to sleep. If you take it without my permission then you nothing more than a common thief!!
This is essentially what ILLEGAL aliens do. It pisses me off that I have to pay full price for my education and give this ****ing government 35% of my hard-earned pay while someone who waded across the Rio Grande gets free food stamps, pays no taxes, free or discounted education just because they do not feel the need to immigrate here LEGALLY!!
We have our own poor and needy in this country, some are legitimately so due to injury, economic downturn, or other unforeseen circumstances. Why don't we spend our tax payers on those Americans instead and maybe they can get back on their feet and be productive members of this society once again. :mad:
The Constitution of the United States were written by Americans for Americans and their LEGAL GUESTS. It should never be applied towards other nations otherwise it would have been called: "The Constitution of the Whole World".
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