View Full Version : S&W, HK, FN in trouble. Interesting times.
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-19-10, 00:45
S&W profits plummet.
http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9I4KIQ80.htm
FN Herstal lays off workers amidst fears of declining sales
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/09/29/fn-herstal-lays-off-workers-amidst-fears-of-declining-sales/
HK needs funs to pay of high interest bond they issued in 2004.
http://zephyr2.bvdep.com/version-20101214/FullEditorialNews.serv?product=zephyrneo&databasecontext=Deals&newsid=8428
I was interested to see the huge revenues these companies are generating. It looks like HK generated 230 or so million dollars in 08 (the last year data was avail). It looks like FN generated even more, and S&W (understandably) quite a bit less. I always thought these companies were fairly small.
Anyway, tough times for the gun makers. I have a suggestion: reduce your prices. It looks like FN has started to do so. Let's see if HK follows suit (HAHAHAHHAHAHAHA).
Regarding H&K:
The firm did not post a single net profit in records dating between 2004 and 2008, though it managed to reduce net loss from EUR 15.29 million in 2007 to EUR 2.28 million in 2008.
Interesting. . .
The_Biased_Observer
12-19-10, 00:56
A profit is a profit, but the sky must be falling anyway.
ETA: I think SW significantly lowered their SD9 and 40 pricing last week .
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-19-10, 01:02
It would certainly seem to be better to have a small profit than a smaller loss.
FromMyColdDeadHand
12-19-10, 01:39
It would certainly seem to be better to have a small profit than a smaller loss.
Till it's time to pay the tax man.
S&W profits plummet.
http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9I4KIQ80.htm
FN Herstal lays off workers amidst fears of declining sales
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/09/29/fn-herstal-lays-off-workers-amidst-fears-of-declining-sales/
HK needs funs to pay of high interest bond they issued in 2004.
http://zephyr2.bvdep.com/version-20101214/FullEditorialNews.serv?product=zephyrneo&databasecontext=Deals&newsid=8428
I was interested to see the huge revenues these companies are generating. It looks like HK generated 230 or so million dollars in 08 (the last year data was avail). It looks like FN generated even more, and S&W (understandably) quite a bit less. I always thought these companies were fairly small.
Anyway, tough times for the gun makers. I have a suggestion: reduce your prices. It looks like FN has started to do so. Let's see if HK follows suit (HAHAHAHHAHAHAHA).
This is just an attempt to get a stimulus bill passed for them. This is the newest trick that everybody is trying, and its working for them all too.
ThirdWatcher
12-19-10, 07:12
I would have thought S&W would be turning a profit, given their success with the M&P line. I hate to see news like this. :(
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-19-10, 08:39
It looks like they are still profitable. I also wonder if S&W is getting punished because investors don't understand that last years boom was a product of the election--and something impossible to keep going.
FN and HK are, apparently, much bigger companies that are suffering because of belt-tigtening on the govt level (world wide). My guess is they need to start begging the chi-coms for some contracts.
Robb Jensen
12-19-10, 08:55
S&W - has lowered their prices on many handguns. Smart move. M&Ps for example first came out at a price equal to Glocks. Then they went up to more expensive than Glocks and they're sales went down. Now they're more reasonable again. They also lowered the price of their new 380BG to be much more competitive with their competitors like Ruger LCR, KelTec P3AT etc.
FN - Well who knows. Maybe make more products affordable. I like many of their products but all the ones I like are $1K+. FN SLP Mk1, FNP45 Tactical, SCAR 17S.
HK - They make some great guns but maybe if they acted like they have even a very small amount of concern for their customers (Gov't agencies, LE agencies and the civilian market). I know of more than a few LE agencies that just got tired of dealing with HKs BS and adopted other firearms platforms who will give product support. One agency in particular who used MP5s for their SWAT team called HK to order mags. They guy at HK says "what are you calling me?", my friend responded "well you guys make the gun, someone with a clue would probably figure that you would have magazines." This agency now uses M4 carbines.
I was interested to see the huge revenues these companies are generating. It looks like HK generated 230 or so million dollars in 08 (the last year data was avail). It looks like FN generated even more, and S&W (understandably) quite a bit less. I always thought these companies were fairly small.
Would have expected HK and FN to make far more myself. They are international companies that outfit/produce arms for mil, LE, etc all over the world, expected far more $$$$.
I know of more than a few LE agencies that just got tired of dealing with HKs BS and adopted other firearms platforms who will give product support. .
This. :cool:
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-19-10, 09:23
HK obviously generates a lot of revenue so they clearly know how to get money. Apparently they have an insanely great engineering staff that is able to develop products that win big contracts worldwide. Unfortunately, their entire business model seems to be based on the next HUGE contract. When the world isn't as hot or the money dries up they are in big trouble. It appears they rode the war boom of the 00s to triple revenue. It looks like FN did the same and they are approaching 500 mil in revenue (or were until recently). S&W is, in my mind, going to benefit at least in the short time because they don't seem to have any military contracts. After taking their lumps in the 90s, they seem to be a heck of a lot more civilian oriented than they used to be.
HK obviously generates a lot of revenue so they clearly know how to get money. Apparently they have an insanely great engineering staff that is able to develop products that win big contracts worldwide. Unfortunately, their entire business model seems to be based on the next HUGE contract. When the world isn't as hot or the money dries up they are in big trouble.
Sounds like Colt. Great guns, bad business model, horrible CS, etc. Arrogance is not a long term business strategy. :sad:
Anyway, tough times for the gun makers. I have a suggestion: reduce your prices. It looks like FN has started to do so. Let's see if HK follows suit (HAHAHAHHAHAHAHA).
Lowering their prices won't generate ANY positive movement of their bottom line and ****s over all of their distributors and dealers as it de-values their inventory by a commensurate amount.
Most dealers are operating at package liquor margins and the problem is only compounded by every assclown who falsely believes they are entitled to a discount for some reason or another.
Lowering a price only makes an item more attractive to someone who was already inetresed in it to begin with. It doesn't increase the prospective pool of buyers. The end result is selling the same number of units for less money. PED (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_elasticity)
Business_Casual
12-19-10, 11:09
Could it be that the efforts of gun banners to introduce regulation and taxes at every level of the firearms business is starting to work? Before you blame the executives at these companies, think how difficult it is to design, manufacture, distribute and protect (insure) in the current climate globally.
B_C
Lowering their prices won't generate ANY positive movement of their bottom line and ****s over all of their distributors and dealers as it de-values their inventory by a commensurate amount.
Most dealers are operating at package liquor margins and the problem is only compounded by every assclown who falsely believes they are entitled to a discount for some reason or another.
Lowering a price only makes an item more attractive to someone who was already inetresed in it to begin with. It doesn't increase the prospective pool of buyers. The end result is selling the same number of units for less money. PED (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_elasticity)
It may very well lead to an increase in the bottom line. If they have excess inventory they are holding it could help them clear that out. And it could open up their products to new customers. Those who would like an hk45 or p30 but have an m&p budget.
I don't know about FN but HK had more problems than just premium priced products. So it would probably not help them unless they fixed their other issues.
A manufacturer lowering MSRP is not comparable to people trying to wrangle a discount from a dealer. Two different situations.
I am sensitive to the idea of devaluing of inventory. I've been on the receiving end of that. Legit distributors and dealers can be taken care of in these cases with rebates (wholesale or retail) or by bonus stuff with new orders (ie extra mags free with new purchases or whatever -- I m thinking on the fly here) to make up for it until the supply line gets reoriented.
The writing has been on the wall, S&W has been in trouble for awhile.
kaiservontexas
12-19-10, 12:55
Could it be that the efforts of gun banners to introduce regulation and taxes at every level of the firearms business is starting to work? Before you blame the executives at these companies, think how difficult it is to design, manufacture, distribute and protect (insure) in the current climate globally.
B_C
That is a good point.
I also believe that some it does have to do with pricing, customer service, and the plain ole' fact, especially HK, that if they released products their customers wanted, instead of buying that neutered carbine to turn into a UMP, then they would probably have more sucess. Granted lean times happen now and again, but many fail to learn that lesson. It all adds up to bad things.
CarlosDJackal
12-19-10, 15:06
IMHO, one of the biggest contributors to this are:
(1) The retail prices were kept at the same levels as the post-2008 election "obama will take your guns" craze.
(2) Limiting the availability of their products to civilian customers. It doesn't matter if they are doing this to keep the prices artificially high or just because they don't believe in selling their products to non-military or non-LE entities. Just because there are people who were willing to pay close to $10k for a SCAR-16 (I've met one) it doesn't mean that this is what everyone else is willing to pay.
(3) Crappy customer service. As stated before, I personally know of an agency's Tactical Team who gave up their G-36s and MP5s because of crappy customer service from H&K. They could not get a hold of parts they needed to keep their weapons running from HK, so last Spring they ditched their HK hardware and bought more than 2-dozen weapons from a US manufacturer.
Belmont31R
12-19-10, 15:24
I guess the figured out most people won't buy a 2k + carbine with limited to no aftermarket or factory support.
HK has been broke before.
When the Germany united and took on the burden of East Germany's financial woes the new unified German government suddenly no longer wished to adopt the new wonder gun called the G11 that HK spent ALL their money developing and nobody else seemed interested in buying it either.
That is how Royal Ordnance in England ended up owning HK for a few years. And they were almost purchased by GIAT. Of course there was that other potential buyer "Todd Bailey" who made it know at HKPro around 2000 that he was in negotiations to purchase HK and once done he intended to shut down all unauthorized HK websites.
:laugh:
I think FN is pretty safe given their military contracts and popular civilian line of rifle.
Kinda surprised by S&W, I thought their AR rifle was a popular seller.
John_Wayne777
12-19-10, 23:50
S&W made some stupid moves that offset their successes. An example would be pouring a bunch of money into making bolt action rifles aimed at the hunting market...a market that was already thoroughly saturated. It's as if they did precisely zero market research before making that move. Was the market really clamoring for a S&W rifle? Unsatisfied with Remington, Winchester, Ruger, Savage, Mossberg, Thompson Center (purchased by S&W), Steyr, Sako, and probably another half a dozen other makes I'm forgetting, was the market really beating down the door for a S&W rifle?
H&K has gotten the message in regards to customer service, I believe. The current H&K management team in the US seems to have a good understanding of customer service and seems genuinely interested in selling some guns. Don't forget that H&K has been a victim of external pressures and internal idiocy. Some people thought that refusing to support weapons already in the hands of customers was a good marketing strategy to get them to buy new weapons. Some people thought that allowing big contract customers to buy the 416, a weapon lots of organizations seemed to want, was a bad idea and that instead they'd push the plastic rifle that nobody wanted.
Bad calls by people who seemed to have more interest in internal politics than the company's bottom line.
The_War_Wagon
12-20-10, 08:21
S&W profits plummet.
http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9I4KIQ80.htm
So Der Kommissar Obamassar decided NOT to ban guns right away. Seeing as how he intends to rule by Imperial fiat these next two years (executive order), that could change in a heartbeat, and sales would skyrocket again. Moreover, I don't see any states RESCINDING CCW laws, so the American market simply seems to have returned to NORMAL, following the typical DEMOCRAP election frenzy - same as happened after the KLIN - TON I insurrection
FN Herstal lays off workers amidst fears of declining sales
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/09/29/fn-herstal-lays-off-workers-amidst-fears-of-declining-sales/
They hung their hat on the SCAR and it flopped. FN is more of a boutique manufacturer for the civilian market anyways - their future as a company rests on their military contracts.
HK needs funs to pay of high interest bond they issued in 2004.
http://zephyr2.bvdep.com/version-20101214/FullEditorialNews.serv?product=zephyrneo&databasecontext=Deals&newsid=8428
The only thing tanking faster than the dollar, is the euro, and EVERYBODY'S overextended on credit in Europe. CETME and Star both failed in '97 for the same reasons, because Spain's economy (particularly the Eibar region) was overextended even back then. I'd say it's more a reflection of the European economy in general, than anything intrinsically wrong with H&K (if being 'overpriced' doesn't count :rolleyes:).
If I were FN & H&K, I'd be more worried about angry, unemployed mobs storming the plants these days... :eek:
ForTehNguyen
12-20-10, 08:41
so S&W is still making a profit just not as much, whats with the title that they "are in trouble"
Rmplstlskn
12-20-10, 09:10
If I were FN & H&K, I'd be more worried about angry, unemployed mobs storming the plants these days... :eek:
Well, they have PLENTY of weapons to use...
Now AMMO would be an issue, I guess...
Rmpl
Corporate "losses" IMO are a ploy for a tax or other strategy. I see it all the time in my industry(airlines). When Delta and Northwest merged, the quarter before they were to be heard before the .gov committee who would determine if they could merge, they both claimed losses in the billions(which even in the airlines is unheard of for a single quarter to be that bad). The next month they announced they had been approved by the .gov to merge.
My company claimed "operating" losses for the last 3-4 years, however our cash in the bank every quarter mysteriously went up. Dont know how this happens.
I dont see these companies disappearing simply because their name's are worth a **** ton of money.
It sounds like the franchise wars in Demolition Man where the only surviving restaurant was Taco Bell.
Looks like Ron Cohen's Sig Sauer may end up being our Taco Bell.
IMHO,
(3) Crappy customer service [to the .gov/LEO/.mil community]. As stated before, I personally know of an agency's Tactical Team who gave up their G-36s and MP5s because of crappy customer service from H&K. They could not get a hold of parts they needed to keep their weapons running from HK, so last Spring they ditched their HK hardware and bought more than 2-dozen weapons from a US manufacturer.
Yes indeed. I also know of a, let's say: "taxpayer funded SERT team" that ordered G36s after North Hollywood.
The weapons were stored in the department armory at room temp. For training, they were transported in a heated department van. During the winter, the previously-zeroed guns were taken from their warm environment & tested on the range.
Result? Widely-shifting zeroes! As a theory, there is supposedly plastic someplace between the barrel and the sights and this plastic exhibits greater shift over a temperature range than the metals used in other guns.
H&K was contacted concerning this serious issue. The response was something along the lines of: "you don't know what you are talking about & these guns have been adopted by the German military. Therefore, there is no problem."
The G36s were shown the department band-saw and replaced by an AR varient.
In another fumble, an HK LEO sales rep pleaded with H&K to make the full-size magazines compatible with their compacts. Deaf ears at H&K HQ. Result? Major complaints over something easily solved from an engineering stand-point.
Not impressive performance from a company which postions its products on the basis of perceived quality & suitability of purpose.
Lowering prices is not always a good idea. If you are already making and selling a product at a loss lowering your price to sell more units will increase your losses.
Lowering prices is not always a good idea. If you are already making and selling a product at a loss lowering your price to sell more units will increase your losses.
If they are already selling at a loss then they have a problem
FN - Your carbines are too damn expensive, your handguns are too damn bulky and too damn ugly. I can't believe these people used to make hi-powers.
HK - Oh? What? You're broke? That's probably because you never sold me an HK416. Drop dead you kraut bastards. Zee fuhrer would have you all shot. I hope you do go broke and get bought by a frenchman.
Doesn't the FN in Belgium own Browning and Winchester as well?
Is this just FNH-US or all of FN?
FN - Your carbines are too damn expensive, your handguns are too damn bulky and too damn ugly. I can't believe these people used to make hi-powers.
HK - Oh? What? You're broke? That's probably because you never sold me an HK416. Drop dead you kraut bastards. Zee fuhrer would have you all shot. I hope you do go broke and get bought by a frenchman.
Ummm, you do know that the MR 556 is HK making the effort to sell you a 416 that would pass ATF importation right?
I am always mystified by people complaining about HK, they have probably done more than anyone to sell semi auto versions of their rifles to US consumers, it is ATF that keeps dicking up the works.
When the 89 import ban came down, HK was one of the few to attempt to keep making compliant rifles.
http://i54.tinypic.com/2s85kyh.jpg
HK - Oh? What? You're broke? That's probably because you never sold me an HK416. Drop dead you kraut bastards. Zee fuhrer would have you all shot. I hope you do go broke and get bought by a frenchman.
As uninformed as it is, this post is still freaking hilarious! :sarcastic:
Business_Casual
12-21-10, 08:52
It sounds like the franchise wars in Demolition Man where the only surviving restaurant was Taco Bell.
Looks like Ron Cohen's Sig Sauer may end up being our Taco Bell.
Glock seems to be doing OK too.
http://i54.tinypic.com/2s85kyh.jpg
Ok here we go.
HK made the 90 series exclusively for the US market. Every other country could either buy their military select fire rifles or couldn't buy semi autos at all.
In 1989 our government banned the 90 series from importation.
HK put a butthole stock on their rifles (like many manufacturers) and called them the HK 911. These were simply banned like most other butthole stock versions of rifles like FAL spoters, AUG USRs, etc.
So HK designed specifically compliant rifles such as the SR9, SR9 T, SR9 TC, PSG1 and even gave us a complaint pistol (based upon the MP5k) the SP89. These were specific US ban complaint rifles designed to be imported given our stupid import laws and very few manufacturers made this kind of effort.
Our government simply added them to the ban list and all the money HK invested in redesigning and manufacturing an importable rifle was lost. Now most manufacturers at this point would get fed up and tell us to give them a call when we got our stupid laws worked out, and most more or less adopted that attitude.
But HK didn't. Given that rifles seemed to be a definite import problem HK focused on handguns for the US shooter and gave us the HK USP series. While the handgun was a success US shooters still wanted rifles based upon HK military designs.
So HK decided to design a rifle based upon current military rifles that could pass ANY importation restriction. And they gave us the SL8 (based upon the G36) and the USC (based upon the UMP). And what did US shooters do? They ignored it and blamed HK for giving them such a gay ****ing version of the rifle. They didn't seem to understand that it was US import laws and not HK policies that dictated the neutered design of the rifles. Once again, HK lost money trying to cater to the US markets.
There was a slight interest when people began to build 922r conversions of the rifles but the cost to domestically remanufacture the rifles to something closer to correct configuration was beyond the means of most shooters. HK was then criticized for not establishing a domestic capacity to produce these rifles, but given the money that HK had already lost gambling on the US market no reasonable business owner could blame them. Keep in mind at the time the renewal of the assault weapon ban was threatened more than a few times and would make any investment in domestic capacity to produce military semi autos another financial loss for HK.
In the last few years HK has seen companies like FN successfully take the risk. And that resulted in HK producing civilian version of their current military rifles (the 416 and 417) which will be known as the MR556 and MR762.
In addition to the profit / loss consideration noted above. The US government holds sway over HK with US military contracts and similar considerations. Furthermore we must remember this is not a US company, but a German manufacturer which has their own rules and regulations regarding manufacture of military rifles for civilian use. Suffice to say US shooters can own many weapon that their own citizens cannot.
I know the whole sordid story. HK should have stayed out of the domestic market until 2005, then started making 416's here. The SL8 was an epic disaster they should have seen coming miles away, even the europeans had no interest in buying it. HK generally speaking has had about as much business sense as that guy still trying to sell STG44 clones in Germany. IE, he'd sell more BD-44's in the state of Pennsylvania in one year than he ever sold in Germany if he moved here.
Until HK can deliver the goods, I went with Knights, BCM and Daniel Defense.
If the MR556 is anything like the MR223, it's going to be a bloated, neutered joke. I sort of lost most of the remaining respect I had for HK with the GSG lawsuit.
variablebinary
12-22-10, 05:44
Times are a changin'
All gun makers need to get the memo. I see lots of $2000 dusty carbines in gun shops all over the valley.
I am jack's complete lack of surprise.
Lowering a price only makes an item more attractive to someone who was already inetresed in it to begin with. It doesn't increase the prospective pool of buyers. The end result is selling the same number of units for less money.
Pardon me for saying that's retarded, but it's retarded. Just ask yourself how many of your friends own H1s at 100K each. Zero or one? Then ask yourself how many of your friends would own H1s if they cost $15K each.
The same with rifles. At $3500 each I am not interested in reading about a SCAR, shooting one or even fondling one in a gun store. At $1500 I would be all over a SCAR .308. At $1000 I would need to have a SCAR 5.56.
Pardon me for saying that's retarded, but it's retarded. Just ask yourself how many of your friends own H1s at 100K each. Zero or one? Then ask yourself how many of your friends would own H1s if they cost $15K each.
The same with rifles. At $3500 each I am not interested in reading about a SCAR, shooting one or even fondling one in a gun store. At $1500 I would be all over a SCAR .308. At $1000 I would need to have a SCAR 5.56.
Well said.
Further, guns have fixed costs and so does R&D. Yes, it has to be "built into" the cost, but it's fixed nonetheless. If the manufacturer (let's say FNH) plans on selling 10,000 pistols over the next year, and the base "cost" is $300 per pistol, and the pistols cost $600 each, that's a "profit" of $3,000,000. However, if they drop the price to $500 ($100 less - a profit of $200) and they end up selling 20,000 pistols in that same year, that's a profit of $4,000,000.
Lowering consumer cost can increase your income, especially in firearms where there are price points.
If the MR556 is anything like the MR223, it's going to be a bloated, neutered joke. I sort of lost most of the remaining respect I had for HK with the GSG lawsuit.
Sorry I meant the MR223. Not sure why you think it will be a neutered joke. Looked good at Shot Show.
The barrel profile is super heavy. They shaved the bayonet lug off the gas block and if it is like the MR223, they modified the bolt/upper to be semi-auto only. Kind of screwy they're trying to reproduce this configuration, considering US law doesn't require any of these things.
The barrel profile is super heavy. They shaved the bayonet lug off the gas block and if it is like the MR223, they modified the bolt/upper to be semi-auto only. Kind of screwy they're trying to reproduce this configuration, considering US law doesn't require any of these things.
Umm you know these aren't being produced domestically right? I'm amazed they are importable at all and that would explain the issues you noted.
But along those lines, my Colt semi's and semi only bolt/upper configurations. The only real issue is the bayo lug. And HK semis have always been imported without them. Even the 91 and 93s came in without bayo lug mounts in the cocking tube.
But along those lines, my Colt semi's and semi only bolt/upper configurations.
I am sure that there are some screwed up Colt's somewhere but I think most Colts sold today can be put on a FA lower with appropriate BCG and due their FA duty...
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-22-10, 22:31
Chad,
I think HK announced at SHOT that the upper will be fully compatible with all M16/AR uppers.
Steyr, federal law dictates that the threaded-barrel and "hi-cap" lower are non-importable and must be produced here. Since they dropped the offset pin arrangement (because the MR223 lowers couldn't be imported anyway), I assumed they were making both the uppers and lowers here. Germany was in the past refusing to export regular 416 uppers for non-mil/leo consumption, in any configuration.
In other words, I have no idea what they are doing, and only a very slight idea of what they can't do by law. They're supposed to be giving away MR556 #1 at the shot show, so I guess we'll find out what the final configuration is then. All I know is that the stock HK416N / IAR is 7.9 lbs, and the MR223, is nearly 9 lbs, all the extra weight is on the front end.
Chad, colt has drastically changed how they've dealt with the non-mil/leo market over the years. Big pin uppers/lowers are long gone.
Outlander Systems
12-22-10, 22:59
Times are a changin'
All gun makers need to get the memo. I see lots of $2000 dusty carbines in gun shops all over the valley.
No shit!
I swear I've been looking at the same handful of SCARs and ACRs at the local shops, since they were released.
:lazy:
I am sure that there are some screwed up Colt's somewhere but I think most Colts sold today can be put on a FA lower with appropriate BCG and due their FA duty...
Ummm, but it is still a semi bolt. The MR223 isn't any different. And for how many years did Colt use large hinge pins on their semis? You just don't see them getting flak for doing exactly the same as HK.
Steyr, federal law dictates that the threaded-barrel and "hi-cap" lower are non-importable and must be produced here. Since they dropped the offset pin arrangement (because the MR223 lowers couldn't be imported anyway), I assumed they were making both the uppers and lowers here. Germany was in the past refusing to export regular 416 uppers for non-mil/leo consumption, in any configuration.
In other words, I have no idea what they are doing, and only a very slight idea of what they can't do by law. They're supposed to be giving away MR556 #1 at the shot show, so I guess we'll find out what the final configuration is then. All I know is that the stock HK416N / IAR is 7.9 lbs, and the MR223, is nearly 9 lbs, all the extra weight is on the front end.
I'm not positive either. But to the best of my understanding these are being imported. Now they may be doing something like "final assembly" in the US. I'm pretty sure they won't be setting up complete US production like FN did.
In either case, the only real difference between the HK and the Colt is the "no bayo" lug thing.
Chad, colt has drastically changed how they've dealt with the non-mil/leo market over the years. Big pin uppers/lowers are long gone.
I know, which is why I said what I said:
ut I think most Colts sold today can be put on a FA lower with appropriate BCG and due their FA duty...
--
I think HK announced at SHOT that the upper will be fully compatible with all M16/AR uppers.
I think you mean with all M16/AR lowers.
That may be so, I was replying to what AK said:
and if it is like the MR223, they modified the bolt/upper to be semi-auto only
--
Ummm, but it is still a semi bolt. The MR223 isn't any different. And for how many years did Colt use large hinge pins on their semis? You just don't see them getting flak for doing exactly the same as HK.
What is a "semi bolt"?
I don't know what sort of BCG Colt puts in the 6920 and similar guns but replacing it with an off the shelf FA BCG and on a FA lower should allow it to rock and roll. I don't know what HK is doing with their new guns but the implication from reading AK was that maybe they had done something to prohibit that.
No one cares about the large pin stuff and I know plenty of people who would not buy Colt because of them. Colt got a bad rap by lots of people for all the crap they did (large pins, bolt pivot pin, etc)
What is a "semi bolt"?
I don't know what sort of BCG Colt puts in the 6920 and similar guns but replacing it with an off the shelf FA BCG and on a FA lower should allow it to rock and roll. I don't know what HK is doing with their new guns but the implication from reading AK was that maybe they had done something to prohibit that.
No one cares about the large pin stuff and I know plenty of people who would not buy Colt because of them. Colt got a bad rap by lots of people for all the crap they did (large pins, bolt pivot pin, etc)
I meant carrier. The MR223 seems like it will be exactly like the current Colts with regard to the BCG.
Not really an issue for me as I really have no interest in dropping one on a FA lower. It will be a quality semi carbine that will do more or less anything my Colts can do except have a bayo lug, and I can live with that.
I think variablebinary famously described the MR223 handling like two M4's taped together.
I think variablebinary famously described the MR223 handling like two M4's taped together.
Really? What made it different from any other piston carbine? Not sure why it would be any different from a 416 in semi mode. Was his complaint about weight? Accuracy?
The weight, it's a tad front heavy.
You've got nearly a pound of extra material up front compared to a regular 416.
Pardon me for saying that's retarded, but it's retarded. Just ask yourself how many of your friends own H1s at 100K each. Zero or one? Then ask yourself how many of your friends would own H1s if they cost $15K each.
The same with rifles. At $3500 each I am not interested in reading about a SCAR, shooting one or even fondling one in a gun store. At $1500 I would be all over a SCAR .308. At $1000 I would need to have a SCAR 5.56.
Too bad they don't even sell HMMWVs to the military for $15k. H1s were also a whole lot nicer than the military vehicles. Nice seats, sound insulation, air conditioning, et al cost MONEY for the manufacturer. You may want one and you might know a handful of people who say they want one, but most people aren't going to be interested in such a limited vehicle. They only seat 4 (6 if you don't want any cargo space, and that's only the wagon version), they have wretched, uncomfortable on-road handling, they are a pain to park, they get horrible mileage (even compared to other SUVs). I could go on, but you get the point, the actual percentage of the population that would shell out the cash for what is (for most people) a wholly inappropriate vehicle is statistically insignificant. Not much profit to be made catering to them.
Some people don't understand that there are R&D costs that need to be offset, fairly rapidly. That you would theoretically be all over a SCAR for $1500 is irrelevant, you are a statistical sampling of one. The EBR market is pretty limited. People still bitch incessantly that Colts are $1000+, when there are rifles that have the same format (but vastly inferior quality) that are substantially less. Ever tried explaining to somebody that, no, in fact their M&P-15 is not the same as a 6920?
If they did make the SCAR at the $1500 price point, people would bitch that the short-cuts they have to make at that price mean it "isn't the same." They'd then bitch about the price of the proprietary magazines.
Reference the Sig 556.
Too bad they don't even sell HMMWVs to the military for $15k. H1s were also a whole lot nicer than the military vehicles. Nice seats, sound insulation, air conditioning, et al cost MONEY for the manufacturer. You may want one and you might know a handful of people who say they want one, but most people aren't going to be interested in such a limited vehicle. They only seat 4 (6 if you don't want any cargo space, and that's only the wagon version), they have wretched, uncomfortable on-road handling, they are a pain to park, they get horrible mileage (even compared to other SUVs). I could go on, but you get the point, the actual percentage of the population that would shell out the cash for what is (for most people) a wholly inappropriate vehicle is statistically insignificant. Not much profit to be made catering to them.
Some people don't understand that there are R&D costs that need to be offset, fairly rapidly. That you would theoretically be all over a SCAR for $1500 is irrelevant, you are a statistical sampling of one. The EBR market is pretty limited. People still bitch incessantly that Colts are $1000+, when there are rifles that have the same format (but vastly inferior quality) that are substantially less. Ever tried explaining to somebody that, no, in fact their M&P-15 is not the same as a 6920?
If they did make the SCAR at the $1500 price point, people would bitch that the short-cuts they have to make at that price mean it "isn't the same." They'd then bitch about the price of the proprietary magazines.
Reference the Sig 556.
Your whole argument goes under if you price those same H1's at 5k each. H1's are unpopular because they 1) cost a crapload, 2) don't do anything that a good Jeep Grand Cherokee won't, and 3) get HORRIBLE gas mileage. The same goes for firearms.
Firearms, especially military issue types/clones, appeal to any real guy who still has a functioning pair. The problem is cost vs performance. If SCAR's were $1,000 each, I'd go out today and buy one. However, for $2,500-3,000? Why bother? My AR-15 does everything it can. Sure, I'd LIKE to have a folding stock; sure, I'd LIKE to have a full RIS; sure, I'd LIKE to have a ambi rifle, but I don't NEED those things.
For $1,000 - $1,500, I'd pay to get what I LIKE. But for $3,000? I'll pass, as I'm seeing little gain for the same price I'd pay for two AR's. I'd rather set up two AR's with plenty of aftermarket support than pay the same for a proprietary weapon with virtually no aftermarket support.
The Sig 5.56 failed because it was a POS, let's keep that fact straight. I wouldn't buy one for $500. The ACR and SCAR haven't fully "failed" in the sense that they're worthless, they're just too expensive to justify any gains they offer.
The weight, it's a tad front heavy.
You've got nearly a pound of extra material up front compared to a regular 416.
Is the extra pound from the additional barrel weight of a 16" compliant barrel? If not what did they add to the 556 that isn't on the 416?
Your whole argument goes under if you price those same H1's at 5k each. H1's are unpopular because they 1) cost a crapload, 2) don't do anything that a good Jeep Grand Cherokee won't, and 3) get HORRIBLE gas mileage. The same goes for firearms.
Firearms, especially military issue types/clones, appeal to any real guy who still has a functioning pair. The problem is cost vs performance. If SCAR's were $1,000 each, I'd go out today and buy one. However, for $2,500-3,000? Why bother? My AR-15 does everything it can. Sure, I'd LIKE to have a folding stock; sure, I'd LIKE to have a full RIS; sure, I'd LIKE to have a ambi rifle, but I don't NEED those things.
For $1,000 - $1,500, I'd pay to get what I LIKE. But for $3,000? I'll pass, as I'm seeing little gain for the same price I'd pay for two AR's. I'd rather set up two AR's with plenty of aftermarket support than pay the same for a proprietary weapon with virtually no aftermarket support.
The Sig 5.56 failed because it was a POS, let's keep that fact straight. I wouldn't buy one for $500. The ACR and SCAR haven't fully "failed" in the sense that they're worthless, they're just too expensive to justify any gains they offer.
My argument doesn't go under actually, for the following reason, they can't be made in a way in which they'd sell at $5k and still turn a profit. They cost what they cost.
Same goes for firearms. Price has a lot to do with recovering cost of R&D, tooling, etc. The AR has been around for 50 years, the specs are open source. Quality vis-a-vis cost (and adherence to TDPs) is the only cost hurdle to be surmounted. Not so with new designs.
The Sig failed because everyone wanted a Swiss-quality 55x-series rifle at $1500-ish. Guess what? Not possible. The Sigs cost $3000+ in Switzerland.
No matter what argument you want to make about manliness and firearms ownership, the EBR market is a pretty narrow niche. Reality is immune to opinion.
variablebinary
12-24-10, 12:48
I think variablebinary famously described the MR223 handling like two M4's taped together.
That is not BS either.
The HK is 2lbs heavier than a Colt 6920 with KAC rail. With the bulk of the difference being in front of the magazine.
Even with a 10" barrel we are still talking a porky 7.2lbs.
For context a Colt 6920 with a 16" barrel and KAC rail is about 6.75lbs.
These aren't small differences. Anyone that thinks the ACR is heavy should be disgusted with the MR
Yep.
Steyr, the extra weight is due to the barrel profile which is like .750 + in front of the gas block and over an inch in diameter behind the gas block. I'm hopping they just use the HK416N/IAR profile barrels, which are sort of a pencil barrel.
Ok here we go.
HK made the 90 series exclusively for the US market. Every other country could either buy their military select fire rifles or couldn't buy semi autos at all.
In 1989 our government banned the 90 series from importation.
HK put a butthole stock on their rifles (like many manufacturers) and called them the HK 911. These were simply banned like most other butthole stock versions of rifles like FAL spoters, AUG USRs, etc.
So HK designed specifically compliant rifles such as the SR9, SR9 T, SR9 TC, PSG1 and even gave us a complaint pistol (based upon the MP5k) the SP89. These were specific US ban complaint rifles designed to be imported given our stupid import laws and very few manufacturers made this kind of effort.
Our government simply added them to the ban list and all the money HK invested in redesigning and manufacturing an importable rifle was lost. Now most manufacturers at this point would get fed up and tell us to give them a call when we got our stupid laws worked out, and most more or less adopted that attitude.
But HK didn't. Given that rifles seemed to be a definite import problem HK focused on handguns for the US shooter and gave us the HK USP series. While the handgun was a success US shooters still wanted rifles based upon HK military designs.
So HK decided to design a rifle based upon current military rifles that could pass ANY importation restriction. And they gave us the SL8 (based upon the G36) and the USC (based upon the UMP). And what did US shooters do? They ignored it and blamed HK for giving them such a gay ****ing version of the rifle. They didn't seem to understand that it was US import laws and not HK policies that dictated the neutered design of the rifles. Once again, HK lost money trying to cater to the US markets.
There was a slight interest when people began to build 922r conversions of the rifles but the cost to domestically remanufacture the rifles to something closer to correct configuration was beyond the means of most shooters. HK was then criticized for not establishing a domestic capacity to produce these rifles, but given the money that HK had already lost gambling on the US market no reasonable business owner could blame them. Keep in mind at the time the renewal of the assault weapon ban was threatened more than a few times and would make any investment in domestic capacity to produce military semi autos another financial loss for HK.
In the last few years HK has seen companies like FN successfully take the risk. And that resulted in HK producing civilian version of their current military rifles (the 416 and 417) which will be known as the MR556 and MR762.
In addition to the profit / loss consideration noted above. The US government holds sway over HK with US military contracts and similar considerations. Furthermore we must remember this is not a US company, but a German manufacturer which has their own rules and regulations regarding manufacture of military rifles for civilian use. Suffice to say US shooters can own many weapon that their own citizens cannot.
That's pretty much as I recall it, too.
Hindsight being 20/10 vision I would have adopted US-based design, development and manufacturing - or at least US manufacturing to offset the the "Fun Bureau". But I'll admit it's much easier to type these words than it is to do marketing research, research property, obtain tax concessions, make the purchase, while simultaneously drawing the plans of the structure, etc, etc, etc.
My argument doesn't go under actually, for the following reason, they can't be made in a way in which they'd sell at $5k and still turn a profit. They cost what they cost.
Same goes for firearms. Price has a lot to do with recovering cost of R&D, tooling, etc. The AR has been around for 50 years, the specs are open source. Quality vis-a-vis cost (and adherence to TDPs) is the only cost hurdle to be surmounted. Not so with new designs.
The Sig failed because everyone wanted a Swiss-quality 55x-series rifle at $1500-ish. Guess what? Not possible. The Sigs cost $3000+ in Switzerland.
No matter what argument you want to make about manliness and firearms ownership, the EBR market is a pretty narrow niche. Reality is immune to opinion.
Correct. And people fail to comprehend (as I did for a long time at Ford) plant capacity, skilled manpower and fixed costs required for additional machinery if one chooses to increase production. The HK91 rifles were relatively easily manufactured - which is why I liked them; they were "NATO AKs" and "bulletproof" (Sorry, Wilson Combat). Their pistols are not simple to manufacture and I wonder how much throughput they could easily manage if they chose to. They seem to take a lot of pride in what they do and may God bless them for that despite the price.
And what of the DVP (Design Verification Process)? Does anyone know HK's process? Without it you/me/we have no real barometer to determine what their fixed costs are. We all KNOW they make one of if not the most durable pistols on the market and I'd love to know their metrics, best practices and DVP&R. I have a suspicion that it's more involved than the rest of the industry.
Combine the fact that Euros don't fully understand our culture (and vice versa) and HK USA is a subsidiary of HK GmBH I'm not at all surprised that HK USA looks the tool from time to time. I often pray that they'd simply hire me, but apparently just praying for a job outside one's documented experience doesn't do the job...
I agree about the Sig. It's still a nice rifle but it's not significantly better than it's competition and in comparison to some it's not as nice in many respects. Can't get a $2,700 rifle for $1,300...
I also think the EBR Market is very small.
That is not BS either.
The HK is 2lbs heavier than a Colt 6920 with KAC rail. With the bulk of the difference being in front of the magazine.
Even with a 10" barrel we are still talking a porky 7.2lbs.
For context a Colt 6920 with a 16" barrel and KAC rail is about 6.75lbs.
These aren't small differences. Anyone that thinks the ACR is heavy should be disgusted with the MR
Obviously a piston rifle is going to be heavier than a DI rifle. This is true for the SIG, FNC and most other piston systems.
But is the MR223 any heavier than the 416 beyond the longer barrel?
Yep.
Steyr, the extra weight is due to the barrel profile which is like .750 + in front of the gas block and over an inch in diameter behind the gas block. I'm hopping they just use the HK416N/IAR profile barrels, which are sort of a pencil barrel.
Ahhh, heavy profile barrel.
That is what I hate about the Colt 6721 and why I prefer a 6520. At least it should result in better accuracy like the 6721/6920. But I prefer a handier carbine.
Last week I took a BCM 14.5 upper and replaced the flat top with an A2, then added skinny handguards and a fiberlite stock. Not exactly ideal for optics, but it's only 6 pounds and balances better. I'll get an OEG for it next month, until then I'm enjoying the light weight.
I held an 10.5 HK416 a few years ago, I think it had the old heavy contour, you'd need a magpul UBR to balance out that beast.
http://www.armytimes.com/xml/news/2007/02/atCarbine070219/070221HK416_story3.JPG
Canuck MR223...
http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/8715/imgp1234b.jpg
Newer production 10.5 HK416...
http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/catalog/hk416upper-4_776_detail.jpg
variablebinary
12-25-10, 03:00
Obviously a piston rifle is going to be heavier than a DI rifle. This is true for the SIG, FNC and most other piston systems.
But is the MR223 any heavier than the 416 beyond the longer barrel?
Yes. A 16" HK416 is rated at 8.4lbs, while the MR556 is 8.91lbs.
It's all in the barrel profile, but either way, the HK416 is a pig just like the MR556.
This is why I require an SBR upper, because at legal length, the weight is a deal breaker for me. Even in SBR for, the weight is still ridiculous, but it's doable
They shaved it down some more.
http://cdn5.thefirearmsblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/hk_iar_1-tfb.jpg
variablebinary
12-25-10, 04:24
They shaved it down some more.
http://cdn5.thefirearmsblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/hk_iar_1-tfb.jpg
I am completely mystified by the barrel contour of the IAR.
You would think the MR556 super heavy barrel would be a better fit for the IAR, compared to the light contour...
The HK416 D16.5RS has a 16" barrel and is heavier. Why a light barrel in an automatic rifle that needs to take more abuse?
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