Man forced off land for not being a good little subject...

[Belmont31R]

Apparently its illegal not to live in a house, and not having city type services. His own 38 acres to himself, and he can't live how he wants?


Owning your own property is a myth....so not only do you have to live a certain way, and pay someone else for services you don't necessarily want...but if you don't pay your rent (taxes) they will just take it from you.


I guess its a good thing none of the homesteaders that pioneered this country west live this way their entire lives...oh wait they did. Its so great what made this country what it is today is now illegal. We all gotta be beholden to other people for our living or they just take your property? Gotta build a house and go in debt or you can't live there?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoQuvjLIIDM

[Littlelebowski]

I smell a libertarian.....

Belmont31R, see you at http://reason.com? :D

[Jerm]

"Owning your own property is a myth..."

We don't even own our own body.

Everything I was taught about this country growing up as a kid is a myth.

Stories like this should be infuriating... Nobody gives a shit.

[M4arc]

How far are we going to let them push us?

[Irish]

What kind of country will our children inherit?

[montanadave]

These stories always make for good headlines.. until you have to live next to somebody who decides they don't need to adhere to any zoning or sanitary restrictions.

Montana has more than its fair share of folks who move out West, buy a 20 acre chunk of dirt, park some piece of shit on it, and call it home. Their "little piece of paradise" is an eyesore and devalues the property of neighboring lands.

Counties and communities have zoning restrictions to protect the rights and property values of all property owners. Its a balancing act and they don't always get it right. But when your neighbor tries to put in a rendering plant next door or you get tired of some vagrant shitting in a five gallon bucket and letting his garbage blow all over your property you'll be damn glad such zoning restrictions exist.

[sjc3081]

What America needs is 25,000 Henry Bowmans but maybe another 10 Glenn Becks will be enough.

[Irish]

What America needs is 25,000 Henry Bowmans...

Unintended Consequences is a fantastic read. ;)

[Suwannee Tim]

Pay attention folks. He is being evicted in part because he is improperly disposing of sewage. Your rights end where my nose begins. You do not have unlimited property rights, at least not where I live and I would not have it any other way. I am surrounded by land zoned Rural Residential, Agricultural and Open Rural. No one can build Industrial Heavy or Industrial Light on these properties. No one can build Residential High Density and you can't run your trucking company out of the house next door to mine. And no one can improperly dispose of sewage. There are some very good reasons for this. We try to keep sewage out of the river, out of our drinking water and out of our noses. I don't see that as unreasonable.

In my previous neighborhood someone moved in an unpermitted house trailer, ran an extension cord and garden hose and began dropping the turds on the ground. I wanted that shut down yesterday. An idiot City inspector gave them 14 months to correct it. I was irate. So was my City Councilman. He got it stopped. Hepatitis C anyone? How about cholera? Would you like a nice dose of dysentery?

We live in a civilization not in anarchy. Mr. Bowman is doing the right thing. Moving. Maybe he can find a county where they don't object to his improper disposal of sewage. Hopeful it is no where near one of my favorite rivers.

[Jerm]

I think you guys are missing the overarching point here. The thing that really irks me (from the OP not the story)...


but if you don't pay your rent (taxes) they will just take it from you.

Along with things like eminent domain abuse...

Owning your own property is a myth.

Poisoning or directly destroying neighboring property is nothing short of criminal. Many times an offense (or whim of the state) that can cost you your home/land falls well short of such things.

The points made by the OP and the issue being discussed stand on their own. Despite what specific legitimate gripes may be involved in the linked story.

[Heavy Metal]

Gotta have proper sewage diposal or the Health Department gets testy.

A tank and a field does not cost that much. It should work assuming he is not right on the water table.

[sjc3081]

The fecal matter of one man surrounded by 38 acres of land should not be of consquence to his neighbors.

[Belmont31R]

These stories always make for good headlines.. until you have to live next to somebody who decides they don't need to adhere to any zoning or sanitary restrictions.

Montana has more than its fair share of folks who move out West, buy a 20 acre chunk of dirt, park some piece of shit on it, and call it home. Their "little piece of paradise" is an eyesore and devalues the property of neighboring lands.

Counties and communities have zoning restrictions to protect the rights and property values of all property owners. Its a balancing act and they don't always get it right. But when your neighbor tries to put in a rendering plant next door or you get tired of some vagrant shitting in a five gallon bucket and letting his garbage blow all over your property you'll be damn glad such zoning restrictions exist.



38 ACRES for one man. I doubt his sanitation habits are of any issue to his neighbors.


And if they are? I don't know how people do it where you live but here people are allowed to have livestock within the city limits. There are people with horses and cows here that live 1/4 mi from subdivisions.

[Belmont31R]

Pay attention folks. He is being evicted in part because he is improperly disposing of sewage. Your rights end where my nose begins. You do not have unlimited property rights, at least not where I live and I would not have it any other way. I am surrounded by land zoned Rural Residential, Agricultural and Open Rural. No one can build Industrial Heavy or Industrial Light on these properties. No one can build Residential High Density and you can't run your trucking company out of the house next door to mine. And no one can improperly dispose of sewage. There are some very good reasons for this. We try to keep sewage out of the river, out of our drinking water and out of our noses. I don't see that as unreasonable.

In my previous neighborhood someone moved in an unpermitted house trailer, ran an extension cord and garden hose and began dropping the turds on the ground. I wanted that shut down yesterday. An idiot City inspector gave them 14 months to correct it. I was irate. So was my City Councilman. He got it stopped. Hepatitis C anyone? How about cholera? Would you like a nice dose of dysentery?

We live in a civilization not in anarchy. Mr. Bowman is doing the right thing. Moving. Maybe he can find a county where they don't object to his improper disposal of sewage. Hopeful it is no where near one of my favorite rivers.




Who cares, really, if they have even an ounce of common sense? Its ONE dude on 38 acres. I highly doubt his neighbors can smell his waste, and I even more highly doubt its any type of health risk. There are plenty of field sanitation methods that don't require any sort of infrastructure that would easily handle one man. Even if he was digging cat holes and not some type of trench system that would be fine for one dude. Waste decomposes very quickly.



And Im not sure about the rest of you but entire units in the military survive just fine with field sanitation. Ive dug my fair share of cat holes while out training and did the numerous other troops who were out there, too.




EDIT: Dumping waste in a stream is one thing. That doesn't at all appear to be the case here. He doesn't live in a tightly packed subdivision. I grew up on 3 acres, and that felt like a lot. Even 3 acres would support an entire family with a proper field sanitation setup. Hell I even remember in basis the bathrooms they had at one training site was nothing but a shack built over a big pit, and your waste dropped directly into it. This supported hundreds of soldiers a day at times.


You don't have to be on city services or have a septic system to safely dispose of waste.


ETA2: If any of you are interested in the Army FM for Field Sanitation is FM21-10

[Suwannee Tim]

.....Even if he was digging cat holes and not some type of trench system that would be fine for one dude.....

Maybe he is and maybe he ain't Belmont. The point is that freedom is not unlimited and some regulations are reasonable. I remember all too well when Jacksonville from a distance was a brown bump on the horizon due to air pollution. Then, 5 mile visibility was unusual. The St. Johns River was an open sewer and you could count the turds coming out the sewage outfalls. We have a half a dozen Superfund sites in Duval County which cost enormous money to clean up. The local sewer utility has spent $500 M to improve waste water collection and treatment and tens of thousands of homeowners in my area have been forced to pay $20K to hook up to city sewage. I can well understand the local powers that be are not amused with this guy dumping turds on the ground. And, if he can do it, so can thousands of other people.

[Belmont31R]

Maybe he is and maybe he ain't Belmont. The point is that freedom is not unlimited and some regulations are reasonable. I remember all too well when Jacksonville from a distance was a brown bump on the horizon due to air pollution. Then, 5 mile visibility was unusual. The St. Johns River was an open sewer and you could count the turds coming out the sewage outfalls. We have a half a dozen Superfund sites in Duval County which cost enormous money to clean up. The local sewer utility has spent $500 M to improve waste water collection and treatment and tens of thousands of homeowners in my area have been forced to pay $20K to hook up to city sewage. I can well understand the local powers that be are not amused with this guy dumping turds on the ground. And, if he can do it, so can thousands of other people.



Prohibiting one guy from disposing of his waste on his own 38 acres is reasonable?


If you dig a trench its the same basic principle as using a septic tank and field. The ground absorbs and degrades the waste into the soil.


No one said anything about throwing a pail of feces into a creek, river or other public waterway. No one said anything about air pollution. No one said freedom is unlimited and free from restrictions. What has been said its absurd to make an issue out of a guy disposing of his own waste on 38 acres of land. Use a little common sense, and you'll see it can be perfectly sanitary and pose no additional health risk using field sanitation methods. A single "straddle trench" can accomodate up to 50 people according to the Army FM on field sanitation.


Ive talked to a few people who have built their own house on their own land, and it was always multiple tens of thousands of dollars to run lines to services. This is why many people use wells, septic tanks, ect.


If you also look at the video he is being evicted because he wasn't living in a permanent home. So if you want to live on your own land you have to pay even many more 10's of thousands for permanent structure. Not everyone has the money to build all that, and they can live as happy as can be (as well as being healthy) without spending a small fortune. Why is it under the control of the government to mandate people live in a certain fashion under these circumstances?


As far as "property values" go you don't get to control what your neighbors do to their property just so it increases your value. If you want that live in a HOA voluntarily to protect your property rights, and telling people what to do with their land then so be it. When it comes to country rural living? Not so much. At least if people were free anymore, and had any rights.

[Outlander Systems]

I'm sorry, but I'm with Belmont on this'un.

I see no harm, no foul, in a man shitting wherever the **** he wants to on his own land. When his neighbors start fronting the cash to pay his taxes, pay his mortgage, or install a septic tank, then, and only then, have they earned the right to bitch.

I'm trying to figure out how homey's doo-doo is any different than his horse's.

To anyone who wants to cry foul...Got a dog? Do you pick up its shit EVERY SINGLE TIME? If not, God help us, I guess it's destroying the EcoSystem, and any of us dog owners better nut up and get our permits, and possibly have our property rezoned.

People, wake up. This isn't about health, it's about the same old shit, pun intended, over, and over, and over, and over, and over again; control.

Here's another modern day terrorist:

http://www.aolnews.com/2010/09/15/cabbagegate-ga-man-fined-5k-for-home-garden/

This shit really gets my systolic hyperbolic.


Of all tyrannies a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. -C.S. Lewis

[Heavy Metal]

The other reason for proper sewage disposal is to prevent him from contaminating his own water source.

The question I have, is if he gets sick from improper sanitation, do the taxpayers have to pay for his medical bill?


I do not think it is an undue burden to ensure he has installed proper sewage disposal and that he has a properly located and drilled well for a water source.

There is being cheap and their is being stupid cheap. Clean water is worth a bit.

If he wants to live in a camper or trailer, that's fine but him having a good, potable water source is in his and societies best interest.

[jwfuhrman]

Madison County is one of the more corrupt in the State. Along with Delaware County, Marion County, (especially the city of Muncie), along with the counties the are up by Chicago(that have the cities of South Bend and Gary in them, along with Merrieville, Sherriville and Hobart), and Bloomington, Indiana.

These counties and cities are among the most corrupt, highest crime rates, with the worst city budgets in the State. They are also the MOST LIBERAL.

[Belmont31R]

The other reason for proper sewage disposal is to prevent him from contaminating his own water source.

The question I have, is if he gets sick from improper sanitation, do the taxpayers have to pay for his medical bill?


I do not think it is an undue burden to ensure he has installed proper sewage disposal and that he has a properly located and drilled well for a water source.

There is being cheap and their is being stupid cheap. Clean water is worth a bit.

If he wants to live in a camper or trailer, that's fine but him having a good, potable water source is in his and societies best interest.



Red:


Well if we didn't enact a law that says hospitals have to treat everyone who walks in the door that wouldn't be anyone's concern now would it?


And to further on that...how is it morally just to impose laws on us that says we, the tax payer, have to fund people's medical care, and then use said mandatory care as further justification to intrude in people's lives?


Thats how the feds grabbed the states by the balls, and force them to do what they want. "We're going to put you in the position you need us to do anything but if you use our help you have to do exactly what we say."


Blue:


Why is it anyones business where his sewage goes or where he gets his water? If you want to make it a law that people have clean water then we better start banning backcountry hiking/hunting, and every other activity where someone might come into contact with untreated water.

Unless he makes his sewage someones business like dumping into a creek then why should anyone care? Ive read a few web articles on this case, and no one is accusing him of dumping waste into a waterway that I am aware of. Theres nothing wrong with simpling digging a pit, and dumping your crap in it. I also don't see why it has to be mandatory to provide yourself with a modern water source. Maybe he has a creek, and collects it himself? There are plenty of ways to gather your own water, and treat it without either being on public water or having a well.


Green:


Since when did we have to do things, and buy things that are in society's best interest? So if someone makes the argument owning guns is against our collective best interest they should be banned? Raising your kids your own way instead of the state's way? Where does that line end?

[Don Robison]

Just my opinion, but it's not about one guy wanting to shit on his 38 acres; it's about preventing millions of people from following his lead. I think everyone can agree that one guy probably isn't going to be an issue, but where do you stop it?


When I see these threads I always have to ask myself if the most vocal really practice what they preach and simply don't pay taxes, crap in their yard and tell the man to stick it because it's their property. The same with the machine gun threads where people are arrested for illegally manufacturing.
Come on guys make an impact and get some social defiance going; build machine guns, crap in your yard and stop paying taxes. Maybe it will spread. :sarcastic:

[RancidSumo]

Just my opinion, but it's not about one guy wanting to shit on his 38 acres; it's about preventing millions of people from following his lead. I think everyone can agree that one guy probably isn't going to be an issue, but where do you stop it?


When I see these threads I always have to ask myself if the most vocal really practice what they preach and simply don't pay taxes, crap in their yard and tell the man to stick it because it's their property. The same with the machine gun threads where people are arrested for illegally manufacturing.
Come on guys make an impact and get some social defiance going; build machine guns, crap in your yard and stop paying taxes. Maybe it will spread. :sarcastic:

Wow, what an argument :rolleyes:

So if we want to try to make a change in society, we must get arrested and become martyrs? I'm pretty sure that it is more effective to start with gradual changes to bring society into a reasonable, moral, state.

Also, just because I don't think that people should have to do something doesn't mean that I am not going to do it. I don't think people should have to drive a car or take medicine when they are sick or donate to charity or even breath and eat but that doesn't mean I'm not going to do those things.

[Suwannee Tim]

Wow, what an argument :rolleyes:

So if we want to try to make a change in society, we must get arrested and become martyrs?

I think don was kidding Rancid. The clue is the little :sarcastic: thinggy.

[500grains]

I live in a watershed where there are no horses or other livestock allowed, no off road vehicle driving (not even snowmobiles), and dogs are only permitted to licensed residents and cannot leave the resident's property (except in a car) due to dog poop fears.

But each year, thousands of boy scouts, back country skiiers, and the general public hiking and picnicking leave thousands of turds buried under rocks, leaves, etc. and that stuff flows right down with the spring runoff.

Rules imposed by government are often absurd, like this one about a guy not being allowed to take a dump on his own land. The government drew a line, and like much government action, the line was not at a logical or reasonable place.

[variablebinary]

You will render onto Caeser.

There is an increasing number of people choosing to go the Christopher McCandless route, and simply trying to completely fall of the grid to rid themselves completely of government, corporations and earthly ambition.

Expect this phenomena to grow in popularity.

[Outlander Systems]

The environmental impact argument is farcical at best.

Are there any roads in Madison County? The amount of toxic sludge entering the water table off the roadways has an order of magnitudes greater effect on the area's ecosystem than faeces. Are there any individuals in the County using non-organic fertiliser? Again, that's entering the water table. Any families getting their yards chemically-treated, again; water table.

I don't want to hear that bullshit about his poo-poo.

Again, this is about control/money. It's an example to anyone wishing to go off-grid that the almighty state will be damned if folks don't toe the line. Everything is a business model.

In my neck o' the woods, a County is suing a man for "growing too many vegetables". :rolleyes: I can't make this shit up.

Story:
http://www.wsbtv.com/news/24979774/detail.html

Video:
http://www.wsbtv.com/video/24981915/index.html


DEKALB COUNTY, Ga. -- DeKalb County is suing a local farmer for growing too many vegetables, but he said he will fight the charges in the ongoing battle neighbors call “Cabbagegate.”

[Belmont31R]

The environmental impact argument is farcical at best.

Are there any roads in Madison County? The amount of toxic sludge entering the water table off the roadways has an order of magnitudes greater effect on the area's ecosystem than faeces. Are there any individuals in the County using non-organic fertiliser? Again, that's entering the water table. Any families getting their yards chemically-treated, again; water table.

I don't want to hear that bullshit about his poo-poo.

Again, this is about control/money. It's an example to anyone wishing to go off-grid that the almighty state will be damned if folks don't toe the line. Everything is a business model.

In my neck o' the woods, a County is suing a man for "growing too many vegetables". :rolleyes: I can't make this shit up.

Story:
http://www.wsbtv.com/news/24979774/detail.html

Video:
http://www.wsbtv.com/video/24981915/index.html




Another good example of why you don't really own your land anymore. You pay for it but are told what to do on it. Who really owns it if its not up to you to decide what to do with it?

[Outlander Systems]

I guess the best way to defeat the Communists was to become them ourselves?

[Suwannee Tim]

You can own land but you do not own the air or the water. You can have a clean environment and safe water supplies or you can let people do as they damn well please. You can't have both. In Florida all surface and subsurface water is owned by the State. If it were not so there would be absolute chaos. Forty years ago the State implemented five Water Management Districts and not a moment too soon. Adequate quantities of clean water is second to nothing in importance. Make a list of things you need. Clean water will be in the top three. I remember all too well when sewage pollution was a major problem in this county. We have spent $500,000,000 over the last 25 years to clean up the water pollution in one county. The law applies to everyone or it is tyranny. If you let Mr. Bowman do as he pleases then how will you stop a thousand person commune from doing as they please? How many of you are old enough to remember when rivers were used as open sewers? When water supplies were or could be polluted? How many want to go back?

[Suwannee Tim]

I guess the best way to defeat the Communists was to become them ourselves?

Funny thing, there are no places on Earth more polluted and contaminated than the current and former Communist countries.

[armakraut]

"If you are a man, Winston, you are the last man. Your kind is extinct; we are the inheritors. Do you understand that you are alone? You are outside history, you are non-existent."

[chadbag]

You can own land but you do not own the air or the water. You can have a clean environment and safe water supplies or you can let people do as they damn well please. You can't have both. In Florida all surface and subsurface water is owned by the State. If it were not so there would be absolute chaos. Forty years ago the State implemented five Water Management Districts and not a moment too soon. Adequate quantities of clean water is second to nothing in importance. Make a list of things you need. Clean water will be in the top three. I remember all too well when sewage pollution was a major problem in this county. We have spent $500,000,000 over the last 25 years to clean up the water pollution in one county. The law applies to everyone or it is tyranny. If you let Mr. Bowman do as he pleases then how will you stop a thousand person commune from doing as they please? How many of you are old enough to remember when rivers were used as open sewers? When water supplies were or could be polluted? How many want to go back?


No one is talking about dumping in rivers or creeks or anything. Digging a trench is no better or no worse than a septic system when you are talking about one guy.

Are you going to prohibit the bears, mice, rabbits, and skunks from taking a crap in the woods too?

[chadbag]

You can own land but you do not own the air or the water. You can have a clean environment and safe water supplies or you can let people do as they damn well please. You can't have both. In Florida all surface and subsurface water is owned by the State. If it were not so there would be absolute chaos.

It is not how it works out West. Out West people have so-called "water rights" that they OWN. You no longer get automatic water rights on land you buy -- someone else may own them -- but it is not always the state that owns them. My dad's neighbor has water rights in the area and was selling water to the city...

[Don Robison]

I think don was kidding Rancid. The clue is the little :sarcastic: thinggy.



Yes, I was being sarcastic and sometimes my sense of humor doesn't come through well on the internet.
My point really was what are those that are the most vocal doing to change the things they are vocal about?
I don't think you need to become a martyr, but posting a bunch of threads about being subjects under rulers comes off as tin foil hat material. Nobody likes rules, but having lived in countries with few rules enforced; I can say each and every one of them were shit holes; crime ridden, smelly, unsanitary shit holes. I detest a lot of rules that adversely affect what I want to do; I have three choices, work to change the rule, follow the rule, or ignore the rule and accept the consequences if I get caught. If I choose to ignore the rule like this man did; I have no one to blame except myself. It's not the government's fault, it's not my mom's fault; it's mine I am the one who decided I could handle getting caught.

[Belmont31R]

Yes, I was being sarcastic and sometimes my sense of humor doesn't come through well on the internet.
My point really was what are those that are the most vocal doing to change the things they are vocal about?
I don't think you need to become a martyr, but posting a bunch of threads about being subjects under rulers comes off as tin foil hat material. Nobody likes rules, but having lived in countries with few rules enforced; I can say each and every one of them were shit holes; crime ridden, smelly, unsanitary shit holes. I detest a lot of rules that adversely affect what I want to do; I have three choices, work to change the rule, follow the rule, or ignore the rule and accept the consequences if I get caught. If I choose to ignore the rule like this man did; I have no one to blame except myself. It's not the government's fault, it's not my mom's fault; it's mine I am the one who decided I could handle getting caught.




No one is talking about near anarchy. Its called using a bit of logic, and realizing one man disposing of his own waste on his own 38 acres is a non-issue, and the government doesn't need to be telling people with 38 acres they have to pay someone to build a septic system or pay for a hookup to a main sewer line.


This is also about them telling him he has to live in a permanent structure. What impact does what he lives in have on anyone but himself? If someone wants to live in a tent on their own land we should go tell them no....you have to build a house with all the modern conveniences if you want to live on your land? Part of this was also because he doesn't have an electric hookup. How does that impact anyone but himself?


I'm not talking about broad society wide issues here. This is about one dude who wants to live on his own land without any modern conveniences, and the government now telling him he has to get off his land because he's not living how they want him to. How he is living has zero impact on anyone but himself.


Again no is suggesting we get rid of all water usage and sewage laws, and delve into a 3rd world status. Our rights end when they infringe on someone else, and so far I cannot see how the way he is living is infringing on anyone else. Of course if you live on a 1/8 acre lot, and dump your shit out the front door that is one thing since. Can we please use a little logic when it comes to telling people what they can and cannot do in this country?


Since when it discussing our rights and issues that come up tinfoil hat'ish? Or should we just stick our heads in the sand and pretend nothing ever goes wrong when it comes to the government, and what they decide is best for us?

[Don Robison]

Since when it discussing our rights and issues that come up tinfoil hat'ish? Or should we just stick our heads in the sand and pretend nothing ever goes wrong when it comes to the government, and what they decide is best for us?

Discussing rights is great. However, many if not most of these threads aren't framed at discussing rights; they are framed as us vs. them.
The guy chose to break the rules where he lived rather than try to change them to fit his lifestyle choice. Now he's up shit creek without a paddle. (pun intended)
Do I agree that he should have to live in a house, nope. Do I think he should have sanitation; yep.
Had he not brought attention to himself he likely could have lived like this for a lot longer, but he brought attention to himself.
I feel for the guy, but it appears he has done nothing to help his situation other than yell about corruption in the county enforcing existing code. Code that is similar to code all over the country.
Like most things; I'm sure there are two sides to the story and the only one we've heard is his.



BTW: Anything Alex Jones jumps on I automatically view with skepticism; the guy is a joke.

[Outlander Systems]

"If you are a man, Winston, you are the last man. Your kind is extinct; we are the inheritors. Do you understand that you are alone? You are outside history, you are non-existent."

I like you.

[Suwannee Tim]

...... Its called using a bit of logic, and realizing one man disposing of his own waste on his own 38 acres is a non-issue....

And who decides who is exempt from the law?


Discussing rights is great. However, many if not most of these threads aren't framed at discussing rights; they are framed as us vs. them.
......

Good observation. Us versus them? Civilians versus cops? Law abiding people versus criminals?

In this country we are supposed to have a rule of law not of men. The law is supposed to apply to everyone.

I disagree that this guy is not a threat to the health of others. I accept that it is possible to dispose of waste safely, I rather doubt he is going to that much trouble. Water moves. it knows no property line. Rain that falls in Minnesota soon arrives in Louisiana. This guy's fecal coliform winds up in someone's fishing hole.

[SHIVAN]

Another GD topic slide in to personally directed diatribes. Can you guys tone it WAY back?

[Belmont31R]

Another GD topic slide in to personally directed diatribes. Can you guys tone it WAY back?






What are acceptable GD topics then? Why don't you guys create a list of topics we can discuss? What do you want GD to be here for? Discussing our favorite winter alcoholic drinks? Discussing the purpose of white tops on school buses?

[chadbag]

What are acceptable GD topics then? Why don't you guys create a list of topics we can discuss? What do you want GD to be here for? Discussing our favorite winter alcoholic drinks? Discussing the purpose of white tops on school buses?

He did not say the subject was bad. He said the degeneration of it into a personal pissing match on the other guy was what is bad.

[SHIVAN]

Why don't you start whatever topic you like, but quit directing your comments, and venom, directly at everyone with whom you disagree? Discuss topics without making it personal, personally vindictive, or otherwise setting bait for which someone else must respond in kind?

A mature, well thought out discussion, and tone, can handle any array of topics. Biggest issue is we seem to be very short on maturity, and can't seem to carry a tone with which we generate mutual respect of each others' views, or viewpoints.

If the membership as a whole, or really just a subset of 10-15 people continue to go down this self-destructive path, we'll likely be forced to punt general discussion altogether.

Why you ask? It's simple. The immaturity and aggressive tone carry from GD to all other parts of the site. That is completely unacceptable, and we are curbing it where and when we can.

It's the function of moderation. Sometimes the membership serves as their own moderators, when it doesn't we must step in.

[Outlander Systems]

Someone hit me up when you find a place, in CONUS, that has the least restrictive zoning ordinances.

I'll retire there.

Dude, Tim, get over the poopie. You've managed to completely skate around the issue that they're pissed that he doesn't live in a permanent, "single-family dwelling" with a minimum area of 1,000 ft².

Everything, EVERYTHING is a business model.

Dude, someone bitched to the County because their notional ( :sarcastic: ) "property value" is being reduced by homey shitting in the woods. :rolleyes: County pops a massive chubby at the fact that they now realise they can slap some fines/liens on this dude.

It comes down to money; fear of a loss of money caused the neighbor to gripe; a major ca$h boner prompted the local despots to get the lien machine crankin'.

[Suwannee Tim]

Another GD topic slide in to personally directed diatribes. Can you guys tone it WAY back?

You can disagree without being disagreeable. You can vehemently dispute an idea without personal attacks on your opponent. Such personal attacks demonstrate a lack of debating skills. The way to improve your debating skills is to hone them through practice. Watch the US Senate in action. These idiots manage to fiercely debate issues without getting personal. If idiots like that can do it, you can too.

[Suwannee Tim]

....Dude, Tim, get over the poopie. You've managed to completely skate around the issue that they're pissed that he doesn't live in a permanent, "single-family dwelling" with a minimum area of 1,000 ft².....

I haven't skated around it, I have just declined to address it. It is a lot less important than the pollution issue. I suspect that the main issue with the County versus Mr Bowman is not him living in an RV but him improperly disposing of waste. I'll admit that it may be the other way around. Hard to know for sure. Poopie in water is a big deal to me. I spend a month year on various rivers. I don't want to be wading in, swimming in and drinking someone else's poopie.

I know of no successful model for management of air and water resources than the public model. If you know of any, even a theoretical model, please point me at it, I would be interested in learning about it.

You guys wonder why I'm not the World Class shooter that I so obviously ought to be, now you know. Because I spend so much of my free time on a river. The fact is that I am a World Class river dawdler.

[variablebinary]

You guys wonder why I'm not the World Class shooter that I so obviously ought to be, now you know. Because I spend so much of my free time on a river. The fact is that I am a World Class river dawdler.

There is plenty of shit and piss in river water, just not human...

[Outlander Systems]

I haven't skated around it, I have just declined to address it. It is a lot less important than the pollution issue. I suspect that the main issue with the County versus Mr Bowman is not him living in an RV but him improperly disposing of waste. I'll admit that it may be the other way around. Hard to know for sure. Poopie in water is a big deal to me. I spend a month year on various rivers. I don't want to be wading in, swimming in and drinking someone else's poopie.

I know of no successful model for management of air and water resources than the public model. If you know of any, even a theoretical model, please point me at it, I would be interested in learning about it.

You guys wonder why I'm not the World Class shooter that I so obviously ought to be, now you know. Because I spend so much of my free time on a river. The fact is that I am a World Class river dawdler.

While I know neither one of us is going to come to any agreement on the topic; I want to address the fact that, regarding the individual in question, I do agree that he should set up a waste-disposal system that doesn't impact his neighbors. That being said, I believe that the issue that the County had with his current waste-disposal system was NOT that it was impacting the area, but that it was a health risk FOR THE PROPERTY OWNER.

If I'm wrong, I'll eat crow.

[kaiservontexas]

I am willing to bet it is about taxes, which the state doing the appraising always inflates your value to jack more out of you; so, I never buy into that my place is worth X crap when talking real market values. If that state is like most then a permanent structure means the taxes go way up for his plot of land. He is not living in a permanent structure, which they say is "illegal." They are just unhappy he is not going from 115 bucks a year to 2k a year in property tax payments. Now that is my assuming Indiana is like Texas when it comes to property taxes, which by the way is why a bunch of people are living in mobile homes out in the country.

[30 cal slut]

Gotta have proper sewage diposal or the Health Department gets testy.

A tank and a field does not cost that much. It should work assuming he is not right on the water table.

Pffft.

With heating fuel prices where they are, I'm burning shit to stay warm.

Who the hell are the environmental do-gooders to tell me I can't burn my own shit. :sarcastic:

[jklaughrey]

Here you go, retire brother.

http://web.camasnet.com/~elkcity/

It lies in Idaho County which has virtually little if any zoning laws as of to date. People live in tents, sheet metal shacks, etc... Plus the community hates outsiders and will employ the 3 S rule if they feel the need. Any form of LEO presence is a good 45 minute drive away in good weather. If bad then you handle you r own problems.

[Outlander Systems]

I am willing to bet it is about taxes, which the state doing the appraising always inflates your value to jack more out of you; so, I never buy into that my place is worth X crap when talking real market values. If that state is like most then a permanent structure means the taxes go way up for his plot of land. He is not living in a permanent structure, which they say is "illegal." They are just unhappy he is not going from 115 bucks a year to 2k a year in property tax payments. Now that is my assuming Indiana is like Texas when it comes to property taxes, which by the way is why a bunch of people are living in mobile homes out in the country.

Ding! Ding! Ding!