View Full Version : So you want to go to a Training Course for the first time?
Failure2Stop
12-21-10, 15:36
This site is notorious for telling people to get training, for good reason, but attending open enrollment classes and reading through the T&T forum (especially a specific recent thread) has shown that there isn't much info for the first timer to let them focus on the class instead of being frustrated due to their lack of preparation and experience. This thread is intended to fix that.
Before we get to the list, first things first: Don't be scared. Whether you are brand new to shooting or a retired Sniper, there will be guys better than you. Don't think that you have to be the best shooter in the class. You are going to get better, and that's what matters. Performance anxiety will turn a fun learning experience into frustration. You don't need to practice for 6 months before enrolling in a course. Choose an applicable class, and in the words of the prophet Nike, "Just Do It".
1- Have a good zero. What is a zero? It is knowing exactly where your bullet will land at a certain diastance in relation to your sights.
There are two preferred zeroes:
The 50/200 meter or yard zero
The 100 meter or yard zero
I list the 50 and 200 as the same zero simply because they will be virtually identical from muzzle to about 100 meters, which is the distance most carbine courses will be within. I recommend the 200 over the 50 since you will have precision at long range and only minimal difference at 50.
The 100 yard/meter (yards and meters are basically interchangable, so for brevity I will use yards here, but personally prefer meters) is my preference. It has a more gentle rise from muzzle to 100, which makes for a more forgiving hold-over at close ranges.
For more information on Zeroes, refer to Molon's superb thread on the subject- https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=65679
Your zero can be considered good to go if you can stuff 8 of 10 rounds into a 6" target at 100 yards or a 3" target at 50 yards from a bench or prone position. This is not the same thing as getting 8 of 10 in a 6" group, but rather hitting an established target, and having the group centered in that target.
Zeroing should be done with the ammo you intend on using in the class.
Throughout the zeroing process constantly check your sight and mount. It is a common problem with people just getting into high volume fire to experience mounts loosening. Make sure they are properly mounted and that applicable parts are loctited, but don't take it for granted that it won't come loose. I had a brand new mount that I loctited and mounted shake loose toward the end of a zeroing/precision testing session. I was embarrassed, but not nearly as much as I would have been if it had happened in front of students, during a match, or if needed to save lives.
2- Know your offsets.
Because the sights of pretty much every assault rifle sit well above the bore you will have to hold your aiming point above the point you want the bullet to strike until you reach your zero distance or the initial intersection of the trajectory and line of sight. This distance will be the greatest at the muzzle and gradually decrease until the initial point or zero distance. Knowing the difference in hold-over (or hold-under, depending on range and zeroing distance) in 5 yard increments will put you ahead of many others. You will notice that not each increment will need a new point of aim, falling into "blocks" that are very close to each other. Knowing these "blocks" will make CQB distance shooting much easier and more applicable to real use. A shooter should be able to place a round into a 2" circle from 3, 5, 10, 15, and 20 yards on demand without a time limit. Naturally, being able to do it quickly is a good thing.
3- Have dependable equipment.
The first time you use a piece of gear should not be day 1 of the course. Your gear should fit, hold what it needs to hold, and be relevant to your expected method of employment. If you are a normal guy you probably don't need to wear a BALCS armor package with front, back, and side plates, 12 mags in triple mag pouches, a MICH helmet, Crye combat top and trousers, and 2 gallons of water. Likewise, if you are a mil student, it's a bit silly to show up looking like a 3-gun competitor. FYI- the instructor and other students won't be impressed by your gear if you don't know how to use it, don't have a reason to wear it, and can't shoot.
Magazines are the leading cause of stoppages in the AR platform. Make sure that you bring at least 5 magazines (unless the course asks for more) that work, and you have cleaned before the class. Bring at least 2 extra mags, just in case.
Write your name or a unique identifying mark on your gear. It makes recovery easier. Everybody has GI and PMags, you don't want to get into the "who has my shit" game during a class.
Get a good pair of electronic ear protection. Wear them so the mic is facing backward. You will be able to hear the instructor during demos without having to take them off, it will be easier to hear commands on the line, and you will be able to hear coaching/corrections easier.
Bring spare batteries for all electronic items. However many batteries you initially think you will need, double it. Trust me.
4- Be prepared to be outside all day.
Bring sunscreen, rain gear, bug spray, an extra set of shoes/boots and socks, and alternate clothing for both warmer and colder conditions than you expect.
Bring water and Gatoraide.
Have a boo-boo kit. You won't have to be applying your own traich, but you will probably get a brass-burn, cut or a blister, and being able to take care of yourself quickly can make the difference.
Bring 2 sets of eye protection, just in case.
Don't worry about taking water to the line, you will be busy shooting, drink water when you are not otherwise engaged.
Bring lunch money, as in cash.
Bring a roll of toilet paper.
Bring a hat.
5- Know your weapons. Know how to load, chamber a round, manipulate the safety, unload, and lock the bolt/slide to the rear. You don't need to practice speed reloads like some chimp on YouTube, the instructor will tell you how he thinks you should be doing it. You just need to know how to safely make your guns work.
Don't point your gun at anybody. This includes when you are takin the gun out of it's case, holstering it, slinging it, verifying a clear, whenever. It's an immediate sign of complacency and ignorance, and almost instantly will make you "that guy".
6- Bring decent ammo. A mixed lot of bargain ammo is probably not going to ensure proper function. Figure out what gives good enough precision, will work in your gun, and costs the least; and buy a bunch of it. Bring at least the minimum required by the class. I generally bring 10 to 20% more, as there are often opportunities to use it.
7- Bring a back-up or at least spare parts.
Always have another BCG on stand-by, at minimum.
8- Bring note-taking gear, and use it.
9- Bring a digital camera. Use it to document points of interest. Do not take pics of other guys or their gear without their consent.
10- Don't argue with the instructor or say things like "Well, so and so from wherever said to do fill in the blank, like this. " If he doesn't teach it a certain way, it's for a reason. It might be because he likes a method for a certain reason, or doesn't know or have proficiency with whatever other technique. Either way, he isn't going to stop he class and adopt a different technique. If you want to talk about it with him later, great, but don't interrupt a period of instruction to do it. After all, you aren't paying him to teach him stuff.
11- Don't take yourself too seriously. It's your first time. You're going to make mistakes. It's ok. If you get all pouty because of a correction or because you aren't the best shooter in your relay it will interfere with your learning process. Have a good time, talk to the other guys and girls at the class. Just don't go too far and try to be a clown.
12- Bring a friend. It is a good way to make sure you have somebody to BS with in case everybody else already knows each other. If you are competative, try to be next to each other on the line so you can push each other to excel. If not, you can give each other gay high-fives as relays turn over.
Anyway, those were just the ones that jumped to mind. There are plenty more. It has been a long time since my first class, so those are things that I have seen mostly as an instructor.
So M4, anybody else want to help out the new guys?
lethal dose
12-21-10, 15:47
Stick this. Anyhow, f2s makes some awesome points. To expound, I cannot stress enough to you guys to make sure your gear works for you before you enter any kind of defensive class. As for helping out my fellow m4c members, as always... my property/range is open to use for free training as long as I don't have a class going on. Just get ahold of me and we'll set something up.
Great info and awesome post, thank you! This should be stickied, stuck and read several times over.
Whootsinator
12-21-10, 16:06
I'll give a third on that sticky recommendation. AWESOME post.
RogerinTPA
12-21-10, 16:10
Awesome thread. True words have never been spoken. This should have been put together years ago. This info is LUBE for your training.:cool:
To add: Bring functional gear (No Ninja shit), less is more (Streamline your gear) and Loctite everything. Bring spare parts for your BCG. A spare BCG is better. A spare weapon is mo better. Lube...you can never have or apply enough of it. Check your BCG after every relay. If it's not wet, lube it. I bring an ammo can full of preloaded mags so I can listen and learn more, take notes, snack, hydrate, take pictures and chat with other shooters, instead of jamming mags at every break.
I'll add a couple of other things:
Come with an open mind and willingness to learn. In each of the classes I've been to, there are always a couple of guys that are just too stubborn to learn. Like F2S said, if the instructor is teaching you a certain way to do things, do it his/her way. The last class I was in, a guy got pissed because all of the techniques (draw, presentation, stance, grip, etc.) were all geared to the isosceles stance and not the Weaver. It was like pulling teeth to get him to try isosceles. The guy paid a lot of money to the instructor for the opportunity to ignore what he was teaching. :rolleyes:
Be helpful during setup/cleanup. My first priority is to make sure I'm ready to participate in the drill, but if my feces is cohesive (mags are loaded, I'm hydrated, etc.) I will try to help the instructors set up the range for the next set of exercises. I remember setting up some steel targets, and about half the class pitched in. The other half just stood there watching. The less time spent setting up the range, the more time for shooting.
Just a few I've observed.
Scotter260
12-21-10, 16:30
I'm surprised someone hasn't/hadn't done one of these yet, it's why I asked the question in the "rant" thread.
I'm glad someone who explains things very well decided to do this, thank you sir.
less is more (Streamline your gear) .
So true. Do the jump and run test also. If you can jump up and down 10x, run 100m and touch your toes with out your shit spilling everywhere then you are on your way to being good to go.
and Loctite everything. .
It is funny when other people dont do it. Its the sign of a non-professional when you dont do it.
Bring spare parts for your BCG. A spare BCG is better. A spare weapon is mo better. .
Soo true, but also make sure your backup weapons are zeroed
Lube...you can never have or apply enough of it. Check your BCG after every relay. If it's not wet, lube it. .
Make sure its in the right places.
I bring an ammo can full of preloaded mags so I can listen and learn more, take notes, snack, hydrate, take pictures and chat with other shooters, instead of jamming mags at every break.
Paul Howe has said he can tell who the serious students are by who brings note taking gear. This is somehting I took to heart and numerous Rite in the Rain pads filled with notes from training.
PJ
Thanks, for sharing. Great info. A sticky would be nice also.
SeriousStudent
12-21-10, 17:50
As always, a valuable read. Thanks very much for creating this.
High Desert
12-21-10, 18:08
The night before class or in case of multi day classes.
• Get a good nights rest
• No alcohol
• Eat sensibly
• Hydrate
No reason to go out and party just because you are out of town.
This advice was given to us by our instructor on day one of my first class. It made a lot of sense.
HD
#12 is great, and I would add "BE a friend." Of all the classes I have attended (which haven't been THAT many), I remember my first the most. The guy beside me was a few days back from Iraq, and as he talked, I just listened. I think it was cathartic to him, and I learned a metric crapload from him as well. I have made friends from a lot of classes.
Great thread. Thanks.
Bring some eye drops if you're prone to dry eye. Not Visine. Something like Refresh/Refresh Contacts or Systane Ultra should be very helpful.
Also bring some chapstick, ibuprofen/tylenol, and some 3M medical tape in case your hands get rubbed raw/blistered.
I actually have a question:
My first class will be in Feb. and I was one who jumped on the bandwagon and purchased a 14.5 Mid. with a PWS Comp pinned on it. I have heard that some instructors are against comps, and fellow shooters will be pissed to be next to you. Is it best practice to not use a rifle fitted with one?
Merry Christmas and great post F2S.
lethal dose
12-21-10, 19:28
COMPs are for COMPetition. ;)
Great informative post. Thanks for posting F2S!!
Some compensators won't get you any friends on either side. If you have one of those, try to get on the end.
I shot next to guy with a Surefire brake and it wasn't that bad. It was outdoors though. Indoors would have been a different story. Stay away from the walls if you are indoors.
I resisted the urge to jump on the Battlecomp/PWS Brake/Surefire Brake bandwagon until I've become semi-competent with my weapon with the standard A2 FH. It'll probably be years before I feel "competent enough".
There was a guy shooting with the Surefire brake on a 10.5 SBR at a class I was at recently. The concussion was pretty obnoxious.
Scotter260
12-22-10, 00:18
I've been enjoying these training "discussions" and believe I actually have something to add and I'm hoping it's pertinent and not a complete statement of the obvious.
I haven't had much for firearms classes except for attending St. Paul PDs Street Safe back in 2005 but I have attended others such as Pursuit Driving every three years per POST requirements as well as twice yearly firearms qualifications also per POST requirements and one thing I can say from the law enforcement side is dress for the occasion.
For these types of classes I always wear my full uniform minus badges, pens, radio, etc. to avoid damage but all the leather gear is present as is my body armor. I don't sit in a car the same or shoot the same when I'm not wearing this equipment so I feel it a disservice to myself to practice without it given how infrequently we get to practice during these sessions. This is obviously a theme that some have hit on previously so I'm not stating anything revolutionary I'm just sayin'.
I've been a minority at these classes because of this but when one instructor, at a class 40 miles away from my village, asked me if I was on-duty I stated, "No, but I don't go to the dance without my dress and heels." I believe I can say that in every instance the instructors made some comment questioning my choice of clothing and in some cases I believe that choice indicated to them that I was serious about being in the class.
Since 2007 when I became Chief I've requested that all the patrolmen from our Mayberry department (4 including myself) wear their uniforms to qualifications and Use of Force training. The first year our instructors, deputies from our sheriff's department, asked me about it because usually other officers/deputies wear sweats and tennis shoes. I told them that they should practice in that which they'd most likely be wearing when implementing what is taught plus if they wreck their clothes it might as well be company issued for ease of replacement. They voiced their appreciation of us doing this after I answered their question too.
Great thread here and thanks for imparting! :cool:
Don Robison
12-22-10, 01:08
If I could add one it would be:
Bring plenty of magazines and load most of them the night before class. Keep a few empty that you can use for dry fire drills and when you need downloaded mags for reload drills. I usually bring 20 mags and load 17 keeping 3 for downloaded drills. Reload them at the end of each training day so you start the same way each morning.
This frees up some of your break time to hydrate and actually take a break instead of worrying about getting magazines loaded to try keep up with class. IMHO, it just makes the day less stressful and a better learning experience especially for those new to the training class environment.
Failure2Stop
12-22-10, 03:16
I almost put in a note about filling lots of mags before the class but did not simply because I did not want to give the impression that one needs to have 25 magazines (almost $300 in mags, about what the 1,000 rounds of 5.56 will cost) for a course.
If you do, all the better, but not a must.
Whatever number of mags you have, invest in a device to fill those magazines quickly. I put all my loose rounds on stripper clips and use either a GI "speed loader" (we get one in each bandoleer of M855), or a Brit Model (like this (http://www.keepshooting.com/firearmaccessories/magazines/m16-mag-speed-loader.htm)). It makes the process simpler while I am watching TV in the hotel room.
Leave two magazines empty. These might be used for stoppage clearance or specific drills with specific round counts.
Don't forget your cleaning gear, specifically a rod long enough to punch out a stuck case.
Bring a small bottle of your lube of choice. You might not need it, but you can become someone's hero if they forgot theirs.
JeepDriver
12-22-10, 08:28
I'm not sure how to phrase this, but don't game training.
Be realistic with your gear. What would you have time to access and put on.
I'll be attending my 5th class in March and I've been cutting done on the gear each class. I've watch people take 15 minutes to strap everything on and get ready.
To me that doesn't seem practical for a civilian who may need their weapon to defend their family one day. think about what you have ready to go, and practice with that.
I'm not sure how to phrase this, but don't game training.
Be realistic with your gear. What would you have time to access and put on.
I'll be attending my 5th class in March and I've been cutting done on the gear each class. I've watch people take 15 minutes to strap everything on and get ready.
To me that doesn't seem practical for a civilian who may need their weapon to defend their family one day. think about what you have ready to go, and practice with that.
This is a good point. I am in the waning days of my mil career, no longer in the mud, so all of my training has been focused around personal defense/home defense, and I don't take gear that I am not going to use at home or on the street.
I'll add a couple of other things:
Come with an open mind and willingness to learn. In each of the classes I've been to, there are always a couple of guys that are just too stubborn to learn. Like F2S said, if the instructor is teaching you a certain way to do things, do it his/her way. The last class I was in, a guy got pissed because all of the techniques (draw, presentation, stance, grip, etc.) were all geared to the isosceles stance and not the Weaver. It was like pulling teeth to get him to try isosceles. The guy paid a lot of money to the instructor for the opportunity to ignore what he was teaching. :rolleyes:
Be helpful during setup/cleanup. My first priority is to make sure I'm ready to participate in the drill, but if my feces is cohesive (mags are loaded, I'm hydrated, etc.) I will try to help the instructors set up the range for the next set of exercises. I remember setting up some steel targets, and about half the class pitched in. The other half just stood there watching. The less time spent setting up the range, the more time for shooting.
Just a few I've observed.
Bingo. I spent time with an instructor setting up before the class, during lunch and at the end of the day. The by-product was opportunity to ask some questions others may have rolled thier eyes at and get some honest feedback. How I can do things differently, gear issues/questions, specifics on why he/she sets the range a particular way. Hell, just asking about the 2X4 target stands kept me from buying stuff I didn't need. More to a point though. When everyone pitches in it allows the class to do more than they may otherwise and I think motivates the instructor to give even more. They need motivation too sometimes. Get out what you give in. Great Post.
-CQ
I would offer slightly different advice.
If you are just starting out and planning on attending a class where you're expected to show up with a dead-nuts zeroed rifle, 30 loaded magazines, ability to carry 5+ of said magazines on your person, and needing lots of gear, you're probably at the wrong class.
Before you enroll in a run-around-throw-yourself-on-the-ground-jump-down-turnaround-pickabaleofcotton type class, get yourself into a fundamentals class. It doesn't have to be a 3-day sleepaway class, but it wouldn't hurt. Barring that you can find a local clinic, training day, whatever.
If, however, you find yourself a good three-day sleepaway class that not only stresses the fundamentals and has a high accuracy standard but also comes with an instructor that knows how to get you to a point where you can meet that standard, there are things to be learned through the zeroing process and other things that were poopood in the other thead. and a class like this will have very low gear requirements so that you don't have to jock all up to take the class.
A good fundamentals class will only require:
a functioning, quality rifle, even with only iron sights and no light, but you'll need a sling. a spare BCG wouldn't hurt
three magazines. you'll have time to stuff them
one, maybe two, rifle magazine pouches
probably a pistol, your carry gun will do
a holster, your carry holster will do
a single magazine pouch, your carry pouch will do
It would be beneficial if you can get a few hundred rounds through the carbine before the class to ensure that it functions, and if you buy a quality carbine to begin with and get a couple hundred rounds through it chances are good that it will have zero issues, as any problems would likely reveal themselves early on. If you buy a questionable carbine there is no telling when it might fail.
I think F2S has done a pretty good job of trying not to overwhelm prospective students. I know that when I took my first carbine course I was concerned that I wouldn't have everything I needed, that I'd forget some crucial element and wind up "that guy", etc. The truth of the matter is that if you are worried about that it's a good thing, and it means your head is in the right place with regards to preparing for the class, and your likelihood of being that guy is greatly reduced. The problem children are the assholes that don't think they could possibly be wrong, that think they're totally prepared for the class, and that you can't tell anything to. They show up with too much, ****ed up, gear and refuse to listen. There are always two "that guys" in most classes. One is the guy that's just having a bad day but is otherwise a competent shooter. The other is the guy that nobody talks about, or to, that just doesn't get it, and wouldn't get it if you put it in a sock full of quarters and smacked him in the face with it.
Thanks for the input... Awesome thread..
Good thread.
I'll reiterate, note taking. It's possibly one of the most underutilized actions that can be done. The dude is talking to you, you need to listen. You also need to remember what he said. It might not make sense now but after a few weeks while you're practicing and you review those notes, shit starts clicking. You understand better what he was trying to tell you while you were ****ing up in class..
Bottom line, take lots of notes. It might not make sense now but you never know when it might be important.
Also, cash. Bring at least $20 per day. This will allow you to cover lunch and any range fees not included in the course cost. Nothing sucks more than to have to eat cold, crunchy, freeze dried food out of your BOB, because you forgot to bring money for lunch. Been there, sucks alot.
Mike
Something to add...
If you are going to a course for the first time, your first course period or your first course with a given instructor, whatever, ask others who have been in that course their opinions and solicit feedback. This has helped. Something else I have done to figure out which dang class to take out of the many out there, is ask as well. I wanted to take two classes offered through Grey Group...two different instructors, two somewhat similar classes. I told Paul what my experience was and what I was looking for and through a little bit of email dialogue, pointed me to the class which best suited my needs. You can never go wrong with an abundance of S2.
All of this is great info. Especially loading up extra mags. The night before my first class, which wasn't too long ago, I loaded up enough mags to cover the required amount of rounds. Only 500 rds. When i signed up for the class I made it a point to buy 2-3 mags whenever I could before hand. I have 20 mags now and having enough loaded mags ahead of time sure made things alot easier. During breaks when everyone else was loading mags I was able to hydrate of go over my notes from the last session completed.
Failure2Stop
12-22-10, 12:56
It's great to see so many people offering advice.
Rob s makes very good points.
Fundamental classes (as one's first class should be unless you have been trained by your job in those aspects) should be comparatively low density, with ample time to learn the basics and jam mags. If you are wondering what level IV plate you should buy and what carrier to put it in for the class, you probably don't need it, and the class is probably oriented to a different audience/skill set than you want for just getting into formal training. There are exceptions, of course, but generally speaking, it is in the students best interest to start at the beginning.
Others have talked about setup, an often overlooked aspect. It helps if you bring a heavy-duty stapler and a box of staples. Any good instructor will have some for the line, but staplers have a tendancy to migrate, hide, and commit suicide. Having your own ensures that you are not dependant on someone else remembering to hand the stapler to the left instead of to the right. Just like everything else, distinctly mark it or it might join the others in their escape.
A roll of duct tape (as should already be in any male's vehicle) often comes in handy. Don't get the cheap stuff, it won't work in the cold or wet.
Ga Shooter
12-22-10, 14:29
Great stuff and should be a sticky!!! Take notes, preload mags and help setup and takedown the range.
Great thread! This should be stickied.
With everything already said, I personally bring:
1) Zip Ties- Invariably, sling mounting options break, zip ties are a quick effective option to mounting a sling.
2) Duct Tape- This goes without saying, tons of things you can do with this. Last minute quick fixes to loose hanging gear...
3) Granola/ Energy bars- I like to eat one or two throughout the day to keep my head in the game.
4) Lube the BCG at least once during the course between breaks. Granted people want to see what kind of abuse they can put their weapon system though before the weapon fails. I like to ensure the BCG is lubed enough to run through the class w/o malfunctions so I can learn as much as possible w/o getting my weapon up and running
For the Basic Carbine class I took a couple of months ago my equipment list was very minimal.
Weapon
Ammo Dry Storage Case -large enough to hold 17 loaded mags. Case has a pull out tray that contained my cleaning gear and spare BCG and lube bottle.
4Mag Chest rig
Pocket knife
Anthing else that may have been required but I didn't really need on the line was in the truck along with a small cooler that contained 6 bottles of Gatorade.
I basically had everyting I needed in my ammo case. Nothing floating around on the tables in the break area. All nice, neat, contained and easy to access. I think that made things much more functional. So much less hassle to deal with and much more time to concentrate on the important stuff.
DDgunslinger
12-22-10, 14:57
Great thread, and alot of really good information for students new to the game. As an instructor, I put out the essential information for required equipment and what is expected. However myself and most other instructor I know never put out anything this in depth. So thanks to everyone here for putting this thread together. I believe this is invaluable information.
For the OP since this is your thread I'll ask you if you mind if I borrow this as a basis for a hand out for new students attending my course. Once again great thread and hell yea it needs to be a sticky.
Failure2Stop
12-22-10, 15:10
For the OP since this is your thread I'll ask you if you mind if I borrow this as a basis for a hand out for new students attending my course. Once again great thread and hell yea it needs to be a sticky.
By all means, just give M4 a nod by including a reference or a link to the thread.
Whatever number of mags you have, invest in a device to fill those magazines quickly. I put all my loose rounds on stripper clips and use either a GI "speed loader" (we get one in each bandoleer of M855), or a Brit Model (like this (http://www.keepshooting.com/firearmaccessories/magazines/m16-mag-speed-loader.htm)). It makes the process simpler while I am watching TV in the hotel room.
I used a StripLULA (http://www.skdtac.com/Maglula_M16_AR15_StripLULA_p/mlu.102.htm)in a recent CSAT class and it was well worth getting. Really saved a bunch of time loading mags when you already have the stripper clips filled.
Another thing I noted was, although I tested out my gear (2 ready tac mag holders and a mini dump pouch) before the class, the weather dictated much different clothing needs a the range on TD1/2. If you know it will be cold or rainy in your class you should probably pick clothing that will work with your gear to minimize the fumbling around. Hot weather probably isn't as much of an issue here.
DDgunslinger
12-22-10, 15:53
By all means, just give M4 a nod by including a reference or a link to the thread.
Will do brother, and for everybody else in our field I'm gonna thank you again for the well written thread.
GermanSynergy
12-22-10, 16:06
F2S,
Outstanding post. Tons of excellent info. :cool:
Gonna pass this on to some friends that are thinking about signing up for their first training class.
elkknuckle
12-23-10, 01:03
Which type of training course would any of you gentlemen recommend for someone who's only formal training is from yearly weapons qualification?(Marine Corps, Table 1, 2 and 3)
I'd add, be in decent physical condition. Being able to move a little, get up from prone regularly and keep a weapon presented for more than 30 seconds would go a long way.
Set an endstate. A real endstate. Not "M4C said I need to go to......" Get focused on it. Get a into a class that will match your intent. And just like with buying the Carbine, get the most for your money, the first time.
I strongly suggest doing a lot of research. I looked at the Company's websites, read the AAR's, looked at pictures, and looked at the next class higher. I also did Google searches on the instructors if they were mentioned. This allows you to understand the Schools methodology and focus. As well as make an honest judgment call if you are fit enough, have the proper equipment, ETC. If the course is above your level, find a lead in clinic. Find a friend.
Most of the Bigger schools and Grey Group have information email addresses. Ask questions. I had several communications with Tigerswan prior to signing up for the class and have maintained that line of communication since then.
3- Have dependable equipment.
The first time you use a piece of gear should not be day 1 of the course....
A slightly paradoxical caveat to this, for those that are in classes and have specific operational requirements, i.e., need specific gear to fulfill them: Use classes to figure out what "dependable equipment" means to you.
Classes are also a place to provide proof-of-concept or a shakedown to new equipment, so you can see what does or does not work for you. It allows you to learn about and tweak what you hang on you or your gun(s) in much the same way the curriculum itself allows you to learn about and tweak manual-of-arms and other skillsets.
So, as other gents have stated, you can make sure that things fit, stay in place, basically function...all of that prior.
A class can be where the rubber meets the road, so that you no longer think that a piece of gear or some combo thereof may function in your head, but know in your balls that it does or does not, or needs more time using it to know for sure, or may not be quite the answer so let's see what happens if I cut THIS off....
Be prepared for the possibility that that shroud, thing, widget, or jewjaw that looked, worked, or fit perfectly while you were mincing around your man-cave may end up getting broken or just not do what you thought it would. It doesn't pay off to get emotionally involved with it, because it's gear, not love, so getting needlesly upset if something doesn't go as planned is only going to interfere with your brain on multiple levels. You pays your money, you takes your chances, and chances are that something may rip, tear, crack, lose alignment or have a change of heart. Don't be yet another version of That Guy, the one that has something go down and decides that he has to drag everybody there to the Soverign Realm of Bruisedicus Vaginarium with him.
What worked, what failed, what was middling-could-be-better? Why did it work or not? What would alter, fix, refine, or otherwise make something napalm-death-on-meth? Identify things that are material solutions to training problems and decide if you're better off with the $$$ investment for the material or the time/$$$ investment for the training. Ad nauseum, ad infinitum.....here's another area where note-taking gear comes in handy. Paraphrasing Einstein, if you write it down, you don't have to worry about remembering it.
This certainly may not apply to everybody, as some have already mentioned the fact that there's no automatic need for a 14' Ryder box truck full of gear. Be sensible about it and remember that it's, at best, a tertiary reason to hit a class.
See to your software needs first; it gives you clues to how the hardware gets added into the mix.
10- Don't argue with the instructor or say things like "Well, so and so from wherever said to do fill in the blank, like this. " If he doesn't teach it a certain way, it's for a reason. It might be because he likes a method for a certain reason, or doesn't know or have proficiency with whatever other technique. Either way, he isn't going to stop he class and adopt a different technique. If you want to talk about it with him later, great, but don't interrupt a period of instruction to do it. After all, you aren't paying him to teach him stuff.
Keep an open mind... I was helping teach a class last week where a guy got so agitated because we asked him to shoot from the isosceles stance. He got so frustrated by the end of the day that he didn't even show up for day 2. To be that narrow minded over just how your going to face the target surprised me.
Matt
GLOCKMASTER
12-23-10, 19:03
Another thread that contains some very good information. (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=4418)
Raven Armament
12-25-10, 22:43
Most of my training has been during LE school and a few private CQB and room entry classes when I worked as a bail enforcement agent/bounty hunter.
As stated above, helping with scenario setups and handling light duty administrative tasks with the instructors helps the entire group. Don't point to the stapler, get your butt over there and walk it to them.
Definitely load up some mags (I usually do 6) the night before so they're ready. I carry two empty mags for use with failure drills. I make them 20rd mags and put red tape on the bottom half of the mag that's exposed outside the mag well. These mags never get ammo loaded, they are only dummy mags for failure drills and as such are marked with the red tape. I keep one in my cargo pocket so it's there in a pinch. Keep a spare in my range bag.
Definitely know your gear. You should know the controls and manipulation. If you're wearing a mag carrier, at least have the basics of changing mags out. If you have a sling, know how to install it on the gun and use in on your person, get in and out of it, etc.
Control your weapon when it's slung. Don't just let it flop around. Control it.
Never, ever be afraid to ask for help. If you don't understand something, ASK. If you can't get something to work, ASK. If you don't know if something is "right" for you, ASK. If you are told to try something, shut your mouth, put your ego in your pocket, and TRY IT.
Let the instructors know where you are for an unplanned break (ie, bathroom). Let them know where you are going and when you return. Take your weapons with you but CLEAR them before you leave the firing line. Put the mags in your pocket or in your gear bag, handle your business, and get new mags upon your return.
One thing I do is keep a highly visible nametag on the rear of my hat or shirt. If the instructor needs to address me by name from a distance (because of something I'm doing) they can single me out. Not required, but just how I roll.
Check your ego at your car door day 1. Do not get it back out for the full period of instruction.
Nothing will get you off on the wrong foot faster, or jack your shooting up faster, then going into a class like you've got something to prove. Go in there with the goal of being SAFE, and executing the fundamentals to the best of your ability. You will shoot better for it.
On more then one occasion the guy running his mouth is the worst shot in the bunch. The guy who, if you can even get him to comment, says his shooting is "okay, but could be a lot better" is usually pretty dang good. Follow that example. Mouth shut, eyes, ears, mind open.
-Jenrick
theblackknight
12-26-10, 14:20
I'll add this.
Bring Gloves. Some never shoot enuff or rapidly to realize your hand guards will get very hot. These are 16 bucks.
http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/wcsstore/CVWEB/staticproductimage//N3521G/large/9500035_mcx_h1505010_pri_larg.jpg
I'll add this.
Bring Gloves. Some never shoot enuff or rapidly to realize your hand guards will get very hot. These are 16 bucks.
http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/wcsstore/CVWEB/staticproductimage//N3521G/large/9500035_mcx_h1505010_pri_larg.jpg
Yes and blisters can crop up on those delicate hands too, the gloves will help with that. But practice shooting with the gloves before you go.
Eating and Drinking...
I find that not chowing on a big breakfast or lunch but grazing thru the day works well... Granola, Power bars.. fruit (Free to grab at the hotel you may be staying at) along with a steady intake of water and Gatorade will keep you hydrated and the food will get you the electrolytes you need to stay sharp.
Pack a lunch. The lunch at most classes is a great time to get to know fellow classmates, share,exchange ideas, check out different gear,guns,accessories,etc. Don't waste it running to a fast food joint and back. I find a nice sandwich along with some fruit and I'm good to go and don't feel sluggish for the afternoon.
I like to bring preloaded mags, I find I can come back off a relay, exchange empty and partials and grab fresh to reload pouches. If there are open relays, then I can turn two relays.. means more shooting and more practice. I like stripper clips.. I can load magazines pretty fast. At the end of the day, I reload, all my mags, give my gun a quick inspection/wipe down and function check and I'm ready to go for the next morning. Now I can head back to my room, shower, grab a bite with classmates, have a little fun and discuss the days events in a relaxing and fun (remember.. training can and should be fun...)environment.
Gloves.. Threads have been written around them.. I like them, but then I train in them, both summer and winter..if you don't, then a class is not the time to start, cause you will get frustrated with your manipulation and wind up taking them off. It's not unusual to loose a chunk of skin during a 2-3 day class. that's why I like gloves, protects my hands... but if your not going to invest in the time to train, then get some medical tape and tape up wear areas on your hands... it helps.
Gear.. Start out minimal..if you show up in a full CIRAS with all the soft/hard armor/12 mags and 2 Jerry cans of water ziptied to you.. and your not use to running in that gear... your going to wear down QUICKLY.. especially if your occupation is sedentary. Dirty Harry once commented that a man's "Got to know his limitations".. good words to live by. Be real with your self assessment of your physical status..
I'm in reasonably good shape yet I'm pretty tuckered after 3 days in gear running and gunning in the hot 90F degree sun... If your carrying an extra 20 +pounds and don't exercise with any regularity, your gonna suffer, and be a danger to your self and others... Again.. Know your limitations.
Guys and guns in close proximity seems to always increase the testosterone level... and you need to be cognizant of why your there.. it's not a competition... don't turn it in to one.. your there to learn, improve and or sustain...and have fun...don't forget that part.
If I had the money, I'd love to go to professional classes.
I never got 1 on 1 training, but I have bought training videos and purchased books, so my method is a lot cheaper than going to a class.
1 thing I do is shoot alot, at 2 different gun clubs. Pulling a trigger often makes you become familiar with your guns. You can practice what you read and what you have watched on those training videos.
If I had the money, I'd love to go to professional classes.
I never got 1 on 1 training, but I have bought training videos and purchased books, so my method is a lot cheaper than going to a class.
1 thing I do is shoot alot, at 2 different gun clubs. Pulling a trigger often makes you become familiar with your guns. You can practice what you read and what you have watched on those training videos.
Only problem is you might be making mistakes, and never have the watchful eyes of someone to guide you. So all you are doing is reinforcing bad habits.
PJ
I'm in reasonably good shape yet I'm pretty tuckered after 3 days in gear running and gunning in the hot 90F degree sun... If your carrying an extra 20 +pounds and don't exercise with any regularity, your gonna suffer, and be a danger to your self and others... Again.. Know your limitations.
Guys and guns in close proximity seems to always increase the testosterone level... and you need to be cognizant of why your there.. it's not a competition... don't turn it in to one.. your there to learn, improve and or sustain...and have fun...don't forget that part.
Chances are, if you are not used to your gear, you do not really need it. I am not a fan of the civi who wears more armor than a tank and never will actually use it.
Competition for me is a vital part of a class. I usually park myself on the line next to someone I know is my skill level or higher. This forces me to constantly try to perform at my highest level and prevents me from slacking off or taking it easy on myself. I have found by doing this I get so much more out of a class.
PJ
Army Chief
12-28-10, 06:43
Stickied.
AC
Chances are, if you are not used to your gear, you do not really need it. I am not a fan of the civi who wears more armor than a tank and never will actually use it.
Competition for me is a vital part of a class. I usually park myself on the line next to someone I know is my skill level or higher. This forces me to constantly try to perform at my highest level and prevents me from slacking off or taking it easy on myself. I have found by doing this I get so much more out of a class.
PJ
Competition is also important to me. I do the same thing. I've only been to 1 class so far but the one I went to I quickly identified who I thought was very good and tried to do at least as well as or better than that person. You can cruise through life or challenge yourself all along the way. I like the challenges much more.
mechanic87
01-06-11, 22:09
I am going to take my first tactical class this summer. I am starting out at a crawl with a basic AR class and i gotta say that I am less nervous now, after reading this wealth of helpful information. As I don't have and endless budget for this newfound hobby, I kept my gear simple and inexpensive as I'm sure my choice in gear will change after the class. Fortunately, I work with a great guy that has been doing this for many years. Thank you all for the great tips and insight.
William B.
03-05-11, 19:47
Many thanks to F2S and the others who put something into this thread! I will be taking my first firearms class next weekend and this thread has been a big help to me in preparing my gear and myself.
VWI- I may have to disagree. Armor has its place in training. In a shoot house for sure. If I run level IV plates, is that overkill? I say no. I want to come home at the end of the day. Level IIIA(in a pistol only house) will work but a little extra can't hurt. Are level IV plates overkill in a carbine class? Maybe not. It's all about getting used to your gear.
I guess it would depend upon the wearer's reasons for wearing the armor and the type. Level IV armor in a basic pistol class may be a little much.:D
Others have talked about setup, an often overlooked aspect. It helps if you bring a heavy-duty stapler and a box of staples. Any good instructor will have some for the line, but staplers have a tendancy to migrate, hide, and commit suicide. Having your own ensures that you are not dependant on someone else remembering to hand the stapler to the left instead of to the right. Just like everything else, distinctly mark it or it might join the others in their escape.
I'll second this, with an emphasis on the "heavy duty" part.
I took a couple simple (required) classes back when I first got into shooting that were put on by a fellow from the local PD. I thought he did a good job overall, but the staplers we had to use were total crap- the ultra-cheap suicidal kind. Those things were the bane of the entire class, and added a lot of un-needed frustration as well as slowing things down.
Since we're talking about people thinking about going to a training class for the first time, I would like to say, "Don't let your apprehension/nervousness talk you out of it."
No doubt that it's a little unnerving to open yourself up to criticism, and no one likes to be ridiculed. I can only say I've taken well over a dozen classes, and maybe I've just been lucky, but even the most grizzled hard-ass instructors and the most savvy experienced classmates have been nothing but helpful and supportive (at least within earshot). I've found instruction to be nothing but a positive experience, and indeed I have formed many friendships at these classes, despite my not being the reincarnation of Paul Howe.
Anyone out there hesitating over the decision, just go, it will be a transformative experience for you.
Very helpful , thank you.
mechanic87
10-14-11, 20:51
I completed a one day carbine class this summer and a three day pistol 101 this fall. This was my first experience with all of this. It was a great time and I learned a lot! I won't be winning any shooting awards any time soon, but my confidence and ability have both impoved greatly. I was very aprehensive about taking my first class, now I can't wait for LAV to post his 2012 schedule so I can secure a seat in his basic carbine. I don't need this training for my line of work, it's just a heck of a lot of fun! I would just mention to other new shooters......keep your eyes and ears open and your mouth shut, lol. No one cares if you are a "bad shot", they only want everyone to be safety concious.
The info on this post was very helpful, even all of the talk about body armor. I opted to abide by the KISS rule....keep it simple stupid. A simple web belt, a mag holder or two and a dump pouch was helpful. I also bought a basic leatherman was perfect for the carbine class. As for the pistol class, I used my IWB holster and a simple dual mag pouch for my belt.
Good luck to others just starting as I have, keep an open mind and think safety.
All good information here, thanks for posting. I read this thread before my first carbine class 4 weeks ago, and will fine-tune things for my next one, in 3 weeks. I had no gear prior to the first class (was familiar with the carbine though), and went light, using just a belt, mag pouches and dump bag, with a sling on the carbine.
RogerinTPA
01-07-12, 08:32
I had an older EOTech 553 that I had for around 6 or 7 years, finally shit the bed during a recent carbine course due to battery contacts coming loose. It now wears an H-1. So IF you have one of the older models with these well reported battery contact issues, bring a backup RDS (Aimpoint). If you are a die hard EOTech fan because of the one MOA dot and reticle, and an Aimpoint will not do, all reports on the newer EXPs have been very positive.
eternal24k
01-07-12, 09:03
1) know that your gun is reliable with said ammo
2) bring a cleaning kit w/ lube
This is directed at those going to their 2nd, 3rd, 4th plus course, for them I would recommend that if you are skilled in the repair and maintenance of the AR platform that you bring your tools. If you aren't skilled in this area at least bring a sight tool, a Leatherman, and whatever wrench your optic might require.
I was at a course recently where a new shooter's Tier III rifle came apart near the end of training day three. Luckily for him, IG was there with his Mystery Machine full of tools and was able to wrench it back into a functioning condition for him.
Many new shooters aren't up on which equipment is better or worse than other equipment (we were all there once), learning on the line can make or break them. Doing a new guy a solid can go a long way into turning a bad day into a good one for all involved.
Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread. It is an excellent overview and guide for prospective students like me. I’m inspired now to take a class and I’ll be looking into training opportunities in the near future.
My MO is to read a lot and say little. Most of the time, I know what I don’t know and frequently rely on the experience and wisdom here to reduce my ignorance. My foray into the AR user community has been eased by the willingness of m4carbine members and moderators to share their hard-earned tips and lessons. Count me as grateful for the highly favorable signal to noise ratio on this forum.
Why is this not a sticky yet?!?
This thread was a huge help in getting set up for my first class.
I'm short on time right now to get ready for work, but I will post my take on the thread and the results that I got for my first class.
Huh.
Looks like AC tried to sticky this a couple of pages ago.....fixed.
I attended my very first class ever March 10 & 11.
I had a fear going into this class of being "That Guy" that was wholly unprepared. As it turns out, I was "That Guy" that was prepared, not over burdened with crap on my gear, so I could go all day without weight fatigue, run, drop, roll and so on and not be impeded.
I was also the only one who had ammo on stripper clips. Besides the fact that I had kept an eye out and stocked up on mags (14 30rd and 4 20rd) and they were all loaded up, when it did come time for me to jam mags, I could get all 14 loaded in the time that it took everyone else to load 4 or 5 by hand. If everyone in the class had at least gone with stripper clips, we could have gotten another hour of shooting or discussion easy. This gave me time while I was waiting to munch, drink, smoke, start policing brass, or dry practice what we just went over.
Gear wise, I went with a Tactical Tailor MAV with a triple mag shingle, and a single triple mag pouch (loaded with 2), and a grenade pouch on either side for booboo kit and my Gerber multi tool. On my belt I had a Maxpedition Rollypolly dump pouch for empties and partial mags.
I went to the line with 6 mags, and ready to run.
Thanks to all for their input on what they do for preparation and gear loadouts.
A huge thanks to Failure2Stop for starting this thread and his guidance.
Sorry, gents....
He admitted to having found correct info using the Search functions....and being unwilling to peruse it because his screen is too small. :rolleyes:
Let's not encourage that kind of intellectual laziness by pushing info to him when he's clearly capable of pulling it himself.
That's putting aside the fact that this thread isn't meant for specific gear selections, to begin with.
Sorry my friend but 'intellectual laziness' isn't the issue. I challenge you to search for 'gun vise' and tell me within 30 minutes what data I was looking for.
Not about the small screen either it's inherent function on search on a mobile platform. Hit 'search' and see what happens. You get a pop up that disappears when you type one character.
Sorry you jumped to a conclusion.
I thought selecting the proper gear would be appropriate for a first class. Thanks for your input.
Sorry, gents....
He admitted to having found correct info using the Search functions....and being unwilling to peruse it because his screen is too small. :rolleyes:
Let's not encourage that kind of intellectual laziness by pushing info to him when he's clearly capable of pulling it himself.
That's putting aside the fact that this thread isn't meant for specific gear selections, to begin with.
GrandPooba
04-04-12, 14:02
some observations I made during RB1 carbine course last weekend:
- properly attach optics past finger tight and make sure you have at least a decent zero. best to zero from a supported prone position at a known distance range.
- locktite anything with screws
- bring a LULA loader or ammo on stripper clips. Minimize time spent loading mags during breaks so you can maximize your time taking notes, rehydrating, asking questions, etc.
- bring a proper sling. A carry strap/parade sling that attaches to the bottom sling swivels on the barrel and buttstock is not ideal for classes like this.
- bring a notebook and pen. Take notes! There is a lot of info to cover in a multi day class
Something I started to do a while back:
1) Write down objective for the class (for starters just copy the class objectives) and keep track of them. Make sure they are met by the end of the course.
2) Have some questions to ask the instructor ready before training day one and then another set for each subsequent day.
3) This applies to after your first course. Bring less gear then you did the previous one. Anything is game including things in your car/suitcase/purse. The goal here is to make you really think about your gear and the importance of each piece. It is quite rewarding.
A matter was brought up in another thread about a member wishing he would have had more than a months notice about the class.
Fact of the matter was that the schedule was posted 5 months ago. One can not expect every single trainer to post a separate thread for each and every class for the year as soon as they are scheduled.
If you want to take a class there are two things that you need to do.
1: Research the different instructors, read up the AAR's on them, pick one or three, then find their current posted schedules and see when and where you can attend (providing you have the means to do the added expense of extended distance travel, buying ammo locally if flying in, vehicle rental, etc...)
2: Find all the ranges within a decent driving distance of where you live (decent distance being how long you are willing to sit in your vehicle to get there - for me no more than 3 hours). Find those ranges websites, locate their calendar of events, and search for the training classes that they have scheduled for the year. Then you can go to those trainers websites to look into what type of class it is, and sign up if you want.
A third option: Put out feelers with your shooting buddies, friends, ect, and set up a private class with an instructor of your choice. That instructor will give you their requirements (time, range conditions, cost per head, minimum number of bodies in the class, and so on), and a time during the year when they would be willing and able to come to you. Once you get the basics nailed down, the instructor should be able to assist you with stetting up the arrangement with the range.
Great advice! I'll def be coming back and reading this for a carbine course in the summer and fall.
3- Have dependable equipment.
The first time you use a piece of gear should not be day 1 of the course. Your gear should fit, hold what it needs to hold, and be relevant to your expected method of employment. If you are a normal guy you probably don't need to wear a BALCS armor package with front, back, and side plates, 12 mags in triple mag pouches, a MICH helmet, Crye combat top and trousers, and 2 gallons of water. Likewise, if you are a mil student, it's a bit silly to show up looking like a 3-gun competitor. FYI- the instructor and other students won't be impressed by your gear if you don't know how to use it, don't have a reas
I cannot emphasize enough how important it was for me to rely on quality stuff - due to the nature of leave requests (unimaginable asspain) and having to acquire hardware just for a class, I found myself a week before the class with:
1 new carbine, 1 new pistol, 1 new belt, 7 new pouches (all of them), with untested helmet and armor system. Needless to say I didn't have time to dick around with questionable stuff, or weak ammunition.
Since my objective wasn't to get good at malfunction clearance, I ponied up a bit more money for the carbine(DD V5), and spent the day before driving down to the class with my BIL to get a rough zero on the carbine and start figuring out the new trigger on a new pistol platform (M&P9/Apex FSS). Same applied to the belt setup (HSGI SureGrip/UBL/6004/BFG HW Pouches), and while I was obviously not as up to speed as I should have been with it, I was miles ahead of many at the class just by having a carbine that was hitting roughly where I was aiming, and having some dry repetitions of drawing from that holster.
I would set up a caddy for breaks - put some gatorade/water in it, sunscreen, loading tools (LULA, UPLULA), some snack bars, and maybe a small cheap chair. I used my wife in the capacity at a recent RB1 class, and would recommend it highly (having the stuff handy, not stranding a SO at the range all day).
If nothing else, the time spent waiting on the rest of the line to dick around a re-prep themselves is a great opportunity to talk one-on-one with instructing staff, or do dry runs of drills with them watching over to solidify instruction. Best learning I got was getting private time while most were grab-assing getting their kit back together.
Last is attitude. Overstated all the time, but even spending my own time/money on leave to go to the course wasn't enough motivation to keep my fully paying attention, wanting to get the most tangible and repeatable improvement from my time there was it.
Wanted to give a big "thank you" to M4c and especially to Failure2Stop for the extremely helpful thread on taking your first carbine class.
I had the opportunity in the past few weeks to get some extra training done through work and the checklist that I made from this post was perfect.
The training was for pistol and carbine but here are some thoughts from someone who is relatively new to the M4/AR platform, I had read tons but didn't have much experience.
The big things I took from this included:
Have a quality rifle (BCM mid16 mod 2 performed flawlessly. Not even a hiccup when 500 rounds/day was the norm. More than I usually shoot in several months. Saw others spending time with problems that I just didn't experience.)
Have rounds on stripper clips (allowed me a lot of extra time to help with range setup, talk to other, more experienced students, hydrate, check gear, etc)
Test your gear before you show up at class (followed another poster's advice; running 100 yards, jumping up and down and bending to pick things up while in full "kit" to ensure I could. Changed a few things after doing this and it worked out very well. I found that after some small tweaks to my gear, I was able to run, crawl, climb and transition with no problems other than my own lack of muscle memory. Big props to the VTac 2 point adjustable sling which made me feel like a pro.)
Train in the gear you will fight in (some things that were easy or comfortable in my living room in jeans and a t-shirt just didn't work out once I had my vest and duty belt all together. Found out what they were and made changes during training so I won't have to when it gets real.)
And on a final note; again after reading and watching videos, there is no substitute for training from quality instructors and actually seeing what you and your AR are capable of...The last day included the Army's 300m rifle course which seemed easier than I could have imagined thanks to the great instruction we received, the BCM and the Aimpoint red dot.
I am going to offer this checklist to every officer in my unit and to any friends outside of work before they head to training.
Thanks again, you guys rock!!!
forgot to add: having a notebook and leatherman was a plus. Was able to help out other students with each.
xCONTRAKTx
06-30-12, 23:15
thanks for the great wealth of info fellas!
I am taking my first formal class next week, a basic carbine course with RB1. I will be taking two carbines with me, with one as a primary and the other as a backup. Those of you who take two guns with you to classes, do you typically run the backup gun sometime during the class, even if your primary is running just fine?
Both guns are setup up pretty similarly.
1) LMT MRP (rifle length), M4s, X300
2) BCM Ltwt Middy, T-1, G2X in Haley mount
I believe that they will have a session during the class to zero the guns. Both are currently zeroed, but I will be flying to this class. I am arriving in town a day early and will have time to hit the range to verify zero before the class starts. So I should be GTG in that regard.
My intention is the LMT to be my primary gun, so I want to get most of the training time with that gun. But I also would like to run the BCM if nothing more than just to see how it runs and if that setup works/feels better.
Your thoughts on use of a backup gun?
Thanks! Great thread here with lots of useful information!
Your choice. Both rifles should run fine by themselves, but shit does happen.
I'd take just one, and the BCG out of the other as a spare. Then when you get home, apply what you learned at the class with the other rifle.
I am taking my first formal class next week, a basic carbine course with RB1. I will be taking two carbines with me, with one as a primary and the other as a backup. Those of you who take two guns with you to classes, do you typically run the backup gun sometime during the class, even if your primary is running just fine?
Both guns are setup up pretty similarly.
1) LMT MRP (rifle length), M4s, X300
2) BCM Ltwt Middy, T-1, G2X in Haley mount
I believe that they will have a session during the class to zero the guns. Both are currently zeroed, but I will be flying to this class. I am arriving in town a day early and will have time to hit the range to verify zero before the class starts. So I should be GTG in that regard.
My intention is the LMT to be my primary gun, so I want to get most of the training time with that gun. But I also would like to run the BCM if nothing more than just to see how it runs and if that setup works/feels better.
Your thoughts on use of a backup gun?
Thanks! Great thread here with lots of useful information!
If at all possible ALWAYS take a back up rifle, preferably a clone of your primary rifle. There is no need to run that rifle if your primary is GTG, but if you want to check function during a hard use class there is nothing wrong with that. You might want to simply run your primary on TD1 and your secondary on TD2. Make sure you show up with both guns properly zeroed so that you aren't having to fool with zeroing and you can focus on other things.
Failure2Stop
09-20-12, 09:52
If you bring a backup gun, make sure that it is zeroed, and zeroed according to the instructor's directions (distance, offset, etc) with the ammo you are shooting in class. I've had a few guys show up with "zeroed" guns that were...not.
Also, recommend leaving all the lights/lasers/bipods/etc off the gun until you get a good feel for what the instructor is teaching.
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[QUOTE=Failure2Stop; / snip
Also, recommend leaving all the lights/lasers/bipods/etc off the gun until you get a good feel for what the instructor is teaching.
Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.[/QUOTE]
What's the reasoning for leaving the light/laser off? I understand the bi-pod, if you're not doing bench shooting it serves no purpose.
But if you typically have a light/laser on your rifle wouldn't you want the rifle to be "as deployed" in the class?
Or is it a weight saving issue? Or just not to be "that guy"?
Appreciate your input F2S, valuable as always.
Your choice. Both rifles should run fine by themselves, but shit does happen.
I'd take just one, and the BCG out of the other as a spare. Then when you get home, apply what you learned at the class with the other rifle.
I have a spare BCG for each gun actually, along with misc BCG parts like a spare firing pin. I will probably take one spare BCG just in case.
Definitely going to run drills that I learn from this class!
If at all possible ALWAYS take a back up rifle, preferably a clone of your primary rifle. There is no need to run that rifle if your primary is GTG, but if you want to check function during a hard use class there is nothing wrong with that. You might want to simply run your primary on TD1 and your secondary on TD2. Make sure you show up with both guns properly zeroed so that you aren't having to fool with zeroing and you can focus on other things.
These guns aren't that similar. The LMT is more of a heavy, built like a tank gun and the BCM is a ltwt, built like a fast tank gun. Haha.
On one hand, I do want to give each gun a trial run during the class to test out the different configurations. On the other hand, it would be good to put one gun through the whole course as a sort of an endurance test. I am sure that both guns will do fine though.
The AAR's for this course indicated that TD1 is mostly in the classroom with the afternoon on the range and TD2 is where the "heavy duty" shooting begins.
I've seen where some guys may run an AR on TD1 and maybe an AK or SCAR on TD2. That got me thinking of possibly running two slightly differently set up ARs.
If you bring a backup gun, make sure that it is zeroed, and zeroed according to the instructor's directions (distance, offset, etc) with the ammo you are shooting in class. I've had a few guys show up with "zeroed" guns that were...not.
Also, recommend leaving all the lights/lasers/bipods/etc off the gun until you get a good feel for what the instructor is teaching.
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I checked with RB1 and Jason replied that zeroing the gun is a lesson that they will cover during the class and that I would be fine zeroing my guns during the class, but I am still going to zero my guns the day before to help things run smoother.
I did learn that they will be doing the 50/200m zero, so if nothing gets jostled too bad during the trip over there, I will hopefully be pretty good there. Will hopefully give me more time just to focus on other things while others are zeroing their guns.
No lasers or bipod on either of my guns. I try to keep them pretty basic. I do have stubby VFG on both and I have been running the LMT with the X300 for a while and recently added the G2X on the BCM. Both can be removed pretty easily though.
Thanks again for the feedback guys! Feel free to share any other tips. Lots of good information already posted, but there's always something to learn!
Thanks for the thread guys. This is a nice read for someone considering proper training. As usual, I find this site priceless in the information one can attain by simply using the search button.
huntgrouse
12-10-12, 11:26
1. make sure you have the minimum skills for the course you are taking. Be honest in yourself assessment of your abilities. If in doubt, contact the instructor/school. Last thing you want to do is show up and be way behind the power curve with the other students. You will either slow the class down and alienate a lot of folks, or may even be asked to leave because you cannot keep up. Most instructors are patient and most students will accept someone who is not as well versed but is working at improvement and not slowing the course down.
1. NO RELOADS. Dont care how good you are, how careful you are reloading. 9 times out of 10, anytime anyone brought reloads to a course, they had weapons issues which stopped training , which pissed a lot of folks off who also paid to be there. Factory ammo or commercial remanufactured only.
2. learn frorm others in the class. Yes the instructors are there to teach and you are there to learn from them. but you can also learn from your fellow students. Sometimes through positive outcomes and sometimes through their negative outcomes. You can also see what other gear works and doesn’t work. Talk to your fellow students. Share info during the breaks.
3. Don’t buy/bring cheap gear/optics. That 80 dollar T1 clone you bought off of Ebay is an Airsoft optic, not a military grade weapons optic. It’s cheap for a reason. Leave it.
4. bring appropriate pouches, sling etc. don’t show up with a sling that isn’t suitable for the type of training you are doing it makes for dangerous weapons handling for starters. Mag pouches/holders/belts. Your Sunday g to meeting leather dress belt won’t work. It isn’t stiff enough. Buy some good pouches.
5. Picking up brass. Forget it. Most courses I have been to don’t have the time in them to do that. Consider it gone. Any cleanup is at the end of the day. Don’t do shit that slows the class down for everyone else.
6. Your zero. Have a zeroed weapon before you get there. Confirm and tweak it during the zeroing portion. This isn’t the time to see if it’s on paper at 25M.
7. Bring a Leatherman or Gerber multi tool for and adjustments you need to make. Don’t screw around with a bullet tip or rim to adjust your scope. Wastes time.
8. Remember that you are one of 10 or 12 or twenty taking the course. All of you paid the same bucks to be there.
9. STFU. If asked for comment, go ahead. But otherwise, blend in , be faceless, don’t draw attention to yourself. No one wants to hear how you plan on going SF or joining the Marines or becoming a SEAL. Nor, how your best friend’s sister’s husband’s uncle was an auxiliary cop in Podunk City and was a “Black Ops operator” and shoots one handed between his legs and is a master class USPSA/IDPA etc. shooter.
10. Get a mag loader for your pistol mags at a minimum. The HKS are great. In a high round count course, your thumbs will take a beating, especially when you are cramming that last round or two in that hi cap mag.
11. Bring a cooler for water and soft drinks. Whether its hot or cold, you need to hydrate. Water and Gatorade are best. Cold drinks are more palatable and you are more likely to drink them than piss warm water. Soda and energy drinks are not good.
12. Don’t try to bullshit anyone. While there may be beginners there, there are also experienced shooters. You will be identified and labeled immediately if you try to be what you are not. be yourself.
PS: take the price tags off all the new 511 clothing you just got before the course that you bought to try and make yourself look like a security contractor , on leave for a tune up.
13. Don’t be late. Get there early. Have your gear set up and be ready to go 15 minutes prior to start time at a minimum. Don’t be setting up gear and loading magazines while everyone else is doing range prep, target set up etc. yes, you do have to help.
14. if your instructors did a great job, let them know. If you want help with some particular skill, let them know. Instructors want feedback. Don’t leave a course dis-satisfied and not say anything. Give them an opportunity to address any concerns.
15. Don’t mess around with your weapons on or near the line. Don’t rack slides; operate actions etc. unless you are given specific commands to do so. Listen to the instructor’s commands. Most of these courses are run as hot ranges. If you have never been on a hot range or are uncomfortable on a hot range, you may want to reconsider your choices. Nothing is more disconcerting for an instructor is a student dicking around with a weapon while he or others are downrange either instructing or fixing targets.
16. Don’t go back to your hotel and practice in your room. You’ll find out why!!!
17. if you go to a course that awards certificates based on performance standards, don’t expect to get anything if you didn’t pass their tests. Know this going into the course. Just because you paid doesn’t entitle you to anything. I have seen shooters attend courses including instructor certification courses and fail to meet the standards and get pissed at the instructors.
17. Have fun. Everyone there puts their pants on the same way. You are there to learn but have fun also. Shooting is fun. Tactical training is to keep you safe. But, being that steely eyed stone cold ninja stud isn’t the way to go.
18. Don’t take yourself too seriously.
4DAIVI PAI2K5
12-10-12, 12:01
Good outline!
oodalooper
12-24-12, 07:47
This is a great thread and is a "must read" prior to any training.
One personal irritant is when folks don't followthe old addage of practice how you fight. What I mean by that, is if your LEO you should be carrying your primary/secondary in a manner that you actually deploy. This also goes for how you carry your extra mags.
This also goes for when you go to the range for quals or just to fart around.
Train like your life depends on it...because it does!
marksman1023
02-15-13, 05:31
Second the question about a good class for someone who has only had the basic military qualification course.
Failure2Stop
02-15-13, 08:28
Second the question about a good class for someone who has only had the basic military qualification course.
There are several quality instructors that participate here on M4.
I would direct you to check out the guys in "Ask the SME", as well as in the "Training" sub-forums.
The first question is not so much as "who", but "what".
What do you want the training to do for you?
From there, see who comes with recommendations from people that know the topic and will be accessible to you.
I've been to some rifle and some pistol classes. A lot of good stuff has been mentioned.
If you have it, bring more of each thing. Two types of slings? Bring both, see which works best.
I never had an issue with my reloads in a class. Having said that you tend to get teary eyed :D about losing that brass you've prepped. So prepare to fire and forget otherwise I would recommend sticking to commercial if possible, you know, like Federal, where you don't care if it disappears. Classes are now offering the option to sell you ammo for your event.
If you decide to buy their ammo bring several different weight buffers with you to help diagnose any cycling issues.
If you decide to take the GoPro route .... mount it and forget it. Use the remote option. You need both hands.
I have the headstrap and the remote. I've used it doing aerobatics in an airplane. Plenty stable. I'd like to try a rifle mount. Just don't fool with it during your exercise.
Either put your extraneous stuff in your bag on the line or place it on you so that it doesn't get damaged (or damage you) when you 'go prone!!!'.
Gloves are nice to have, otherwise the tape mentioned earlier. That gap in the trigger guard likes to blister the middle finger (Ergo Grip Gapper to the rescue :D )
If the line goes prone for some distance training and you are exceedingly fortunate enough, like I once was, to be next to the guy with the 300WSM with a muzzle brake ........... welcome to the firing range :p
Be prepared for the class to not wait for you to un-f yourself or your gear. Got an issue? Step off the line and fix it. The class is likely to keep going. Another reason to make sure you're run quality stuff. You paid $2k or more for a class, you don't want to miss a minute of it.
whiskey lake
05-19-13, 17:15
I just completed a handgun course recently and have two things to add to this thread as a result.
1. Bring your weapon/gear as you intend to use it. Several folks showed up with gear that they will never actually use. For example, a portion of the class was deployment from concealed carry and one participant was using a monstrous paddle holster that would be seen from the space station.
1. Do NOT use reloads. One participant had a round fire and then lock the slide completely. Long story short, no powder - primer only. He was about 2 seconds from firing a fresh round down the pipe with a projectile unknowingly lodged in the barrel when I queried him on the disposition of the previous round.
Great thread!
Can youth (under 18) attend training courses? I realize this is probably not so, however, I can't find any info on any training companies' websites requiring an age limit. Thanks in advance for any help.
Levi
I definitely need a first-timer class! I'll be looking for one in my area (central KY) and signing up ASAP. Thanks for the post!
Can youth (under 18) attend training courses? I realize this is probably not so, however, I can't find any info on any training companies' websites requiring an age limit. Thanks in advance for any help.
Levi
You would have to contact the trainer or the sponsor company directly and ask. Exceptions might be made for a private class, but I would suspect it highly unlikely for a standard class. Especially with all the BS of late involving shootings by persons still in high school.
I definitely need a first-timer class! I'll be looking for one in my area (central KY) and signing up ASAP. Thanks for the post!
Check out Mr. Smith, you can find him on this site or at Superior Firearms. He's a former VSM instructor and a good guy.
I live in NE Indiana and am wanting to take some firearms courses, one in particular is Kyle Defoors carbine course in OH. However in the class description it says the class is for students who have attended shooting courses before or students who have a good understanding of carbine basics. I have never attended a class before so I'm hoping someone could elaborate on what is meant by carbine basics. Or if you have attended on of Kyles courses how advanced is it? Thanks
I live in NE Indiana and am wanting to take some firearms courses, one in particular is Kyle Defoors carbine course in OH. However in the class description it says the class is for students who have attended shooting courses before or students who have a good understanding of carbine basics. I have never attended a class before so I'm hoping someone could elaborate on what is meant by carbine basics. Or if you have attended on of Kyles courses how advanced is it? Thanks
I'd give Alias a call. I'm sure they would be more than helpful with your questions.
chastain11
02-18-15, 18:41
This still has to be one of the best original posts ever. I have read this thread at least a half-dozen times now. Again, since I am back to having enough time to start taking some courses. Thanks again Mr. Jack.
Just signed up for my first class and am pretty stoked. It's lavs 1911 operators course, on spare parts what would you recommend I bring? I was obviously going to bring my primary which is a trp operator, but was thinking I might bring my backup although it's a rock island armory and I don't have a whole world of faith in it. But spare parts, what should I bring?
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Just signed up for my first class and am pretty stoked. It's lavs 1911 operators course, on spare parts what would you recommend I bring? I was obviously going to bring my primary which is a trp operator, but was thinking I might bring my backup although it's a rock island armory and I don't have a whole world of faith in it. But spare parts, what should I bring?
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Definitely bring the backup, it won't hurt. How many rounds on your primary? I'd bring a new recoil spring. Maybe an extractor as well, but I really have no idea what it takes to replace that so it may not be feasible on the road. Other than that, mags and o-rings for your grips. That's probably about it though.
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I'm not sure. I don't track rounds for it less than 1500 though.
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I read on another forum that if you build your own AR, PLEASE put it through a wringer before you bring it to class. This guy had taught hundreds of classes (I think he was with Front Sight) and said 90% of the time when somebody's gun fails in the middle of a lesson, it's a home-built job.
Replying to an old thread!
However...
This is a tremendous resource. I recently took my first AR focused course and this was plenty helpful. Sure I had a rolling toolbox worth of stuff with me, but I did have to use some things I wasn't expecting to.
Thank you to all who have contributed and compiled information together.
I’m looking at taking a carbine course this winter, it’ll be my first carbine class. Don’t know how to ask this without sounding like a douche so just going to ask. I have a chest rig setup that I’ve used, and it’s got lvl iv plates in it. Being a basic class should I still run that or go get something different for mags and dump pouches?
Thanks
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crosseyedshooter
11-08-21, 09:29
I’m looking at taking a carbine course this winter, it’ll be my first carbine class. Don’t know how to ask this without sounding like a douche so just going to ask. I have a chest rig setup that I’ve used, and it’s got lvl iv plates in it. Being a basic class should I still run that or go get something different for mags and dump pouches?
Thanks
I’m a nobody that’s taken a few training classes as a first-timer. I’ve found that using what I already have and am familiar with gave me the most learning opportunities. There’s always somebody in class with a hot new setup and inevitably spends more time figuring that out than learning the course material. Of course, there are basic requirements of any particular class and the courses I’ve taken usually have a good description of recommended equipment like knee pads, minimum mags and reloads for their curriculum, etc.
William B.
11-08-21, 10:39
I’m looking at taking a carbine course this winter, it’ll be my first carbine class. Don’t know how to ask this without sounding like a douche so just going to ask. I have a chest rig setup that I’ve used, and it’s got lvl iv plates in it. Being a basic class should I still run that or go get something different for mags and dump pouches?
I would run what you're used to. Not sure what kind of physical shape you're in or how long you're used to wearing your plate carrier, but if the weight/fatigue becomes an issue during class you could probably just remove the plates and still use your PC as a chest rig for spare mags, etc.
Being a basic class should I still run that or
Center of gravity for such is typically "How many magazines do you need to be able to carry to the firing line?"
If the answer is something like one in the gun and a reload (or two)...then you can utilize a single mag pouch on your belt and/or the pockets of your pants, and focus on learning from the teacher(s) instead of getting sucked into the distractions of *needless* equipment.
"Train how you'd fight" is a nice little aphorism, but it's also typically oversimplified and made stupid by those who interpret it as "wear all your shit." That can be a bad road.
Instead, consider "train FOR a fight" by starting at Square 1 instead of thinking you're at Square 3 level, already. If this is your first class, perhaps maximize learning the weapon better, then make plans to integrate wearing more crap. I PROMISE you, you'll get more out of it that way, overall. Learn the manual-of-arms better, then add impediments, later.
If you need to bring 4-5 or more mags to the line...STILL better to just bring a small toolbag or similar than to jock up with Highway To The Danger Zone gear, or use an actual simple chest rig instead of armor.
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