View Full Version : One and only one battlefield rifle.
A friend of mine made a request. As a fan of Bushmaster, etc., he has been somewhat persuaded that he should upgrade. But he said he wants to upgrade to "one and only one battlefield rifle" which is:
o durable
o reliable
o accurate long range shooter w/ Nightforce scope
o lightweight
o 16 inch barrel
o green laser
I won't post my horrifyingly long response. But you probably get the idea...
RogerinTPA
12-24-10, 09:22
Anything to the left of the "chart" would be a dramatic upgrade form BM. Colt 6920s are going for 1100 bucks these days online and is a steal. Mine would be from DD, BCM or Noveske 14.5 or 16 in barrel, in a middy configuration with a government or light weight profile, 12.0 lite rail, an aimpoint H-1 and a light. Get ammo, quality mags and training, and he'll be GTG.
SCAR
http://www.fnhusa.com/le/products/firearms/model.asp?fid=FNF054&gid=FNG006&mid=FNM0152
:D
As for a green laser I've been looking at this unit. http://www.laserlyte.com/Laser_Gun_Sights/K-15/K-15.html
If a SCAR is out of his budget then what RogerinTPA posted is good advice. DD and BCM are hard to beat right now. My "goto" AR is a BCM.
.
I own Colts, LMTs, a BCM middy and various frankenguns with lots of RRA, Bushmaster, Sabre, Mega and CMT parts so I think I've seen and have experience with a wide array of ARs over the years.
Recently I had a change to check out va_dingers Daniel Defense DDM4 v1 and I was so impressed I ordered on the very next day. Specs, quality, attention to detail are at least equal to, and in many ways exceed, the big names on the chart.
Like I said, I was so impressed I ordered one after spending some time with va_dinger's. It hasen't arrived yet but I have a feeling that once it gets here it will be my primary, go-to, carbine. Have your buddy check out Daniel Defense.
Army Chief
12-24-10, 09:45
One and only? My answer won't be horrifyingly long (for once):
SCAR 17.
AC
Moose-Knuckle
12-24-10, 13:16
Battlefield rifle huh, then I guess that cancels out anything in 5.56 flavor. ;)
Is the discussion here limited to 5.56/7.62, it would make sense that it would be if ammo availability is one of the concerns.
To me the lightweight requirement makes it hard for a 7.62 rifle to qualify.
I would think a high quality 16" AR barrel on a good rifle would get 500 or 600 yards fairly reliably. Does that meet the long range requirements?
I chose a Grendel for this role but I don't need a "battlefield rifle" so I was willing to give up a little on ammo availability, something I wouldn't do if I wanted a battlefield gun.
A friend of mine made a request. As a fan of Bushmaster, etc., he has been somewhat persuaded that he should upgrade. But he said he wants to upgrade to "one and only one battlefield rifle" which is:
o durable
o reliable
o accurate long range shooter w/ Nightforce scope
o lightweight
o 16 inch barrel
o green laser
I won't post my horrifyingly long response. But you probably get the idea...
Does he want to shoot 1000 yards with it and use it for CQB as well???;)
My "one and only one" would have to be an SR15. Even though its got propietary parts if you run the gun enough to break those parts then you probably might be looking at just ditching it for a whole new gun by that time.
Either a good AR or maybe the SCAR-17.
Im really digging the new M16A5 though as an all around battle rifle.
One and only? My answer won't be horrifyingly long (for once):
SCAR 17.
AC
WOW:eek:, did not expect that.
I knew I shouldn't be reading this thread with it's title....
eta... Why is the green laser a requirement.....maybe to kill pink zombies??
Does he want to shoot 1000 yards with it and use it for CQB as well???;)
I think so, which is why I provided a horrifyingly long response about close, mid-range and long-range rifles.
It is interesting that there are so many recommendations for the SCAR. It's not that I thought it was not a good gun, but I did not realize it had so much support.
eta... Why is the green laser a requirement.....maybe to kill pink zombies??
I don't know, it's just what he said. Maybe red ones hurt his eyes. :p Or maybe he wants to be able to mark his own position for when his wife brings his lunch by.
GermanSynergy
12-24-10, 17:50
KAC SR15E3
Dirtyboy333
12-24-10, 20:08
Hi-Point Carbine all day...in a very distant 2nd HK 417 (if available).....3rd Scar 17 :sarcastic:
For all you gents that list all these new .308 AR's....what happens when you run outta ammo and everyone around you is sporting 5.56 blasters on this so called "ultimate battlefield" :D
A .308 on the battlefield imo will handicap you significantly if you spend any amt. of time in the field or expend a high volume of fire at any one particular engagement. I would not even consider a .308 AR in this role and its still the "niche" AR in my eyes. Besides ammo, the extra weight, recoil, few capacity mags, an overall caliber that is not nearly as proven when operating in an AR platform as a 5.56...etc.
Dirtyboy333
12-24-10, 21:11
For all you gents that list all these new .308 AR's....what happens when you run outta ammo and everyone around you is sporting 5.56 blasters on this so called "ultimate battlefield" :D
A .308 on the battlefield imo will handicap you significantly if you spend any amt. of time in the field or expend a high volume of fire at any one particular engagement. I would not even consider a .308 AR in this role and its still the "niche" AR in my eyes. Besides ammo, the extra weight, recoil, few capacity mags, an overall caliber that is not nearly as proven when operating in an AR platform as a 5.56...etc.
mybad, i thought a battle rifle was described basically as 308...i read that somewhere in here idk....but yeah i would rather use a lighter 556 rifle if its allowed in this scenario....so, mine would be Hi-point carbine in 556 by a long shot, HK 416, SCAR 16 but i would feel damn fine with a DDM4 (carbine gas system :eek:)
The question is, does Hi-Point even make a 5.56mm carbine, or do you just feed the 5.56 through the 9mm??? I know it's Hi-Point, and they are that awesome, that you don't even have to use the correct ammo....
But besides the Hi-Point carbine, I'd just go with a quality AR carbine.
KAC SR-25 EMC
Merry Christmas!
Dirtyboy333
12-25-10, 00:45
The question is, does Hi-Point even make a 5.56mm carbine, or do you just feed the 5.56 through the 9mm??? I know it's Hi-Point, and they are that awesome, that you don't even have to use the correct ammo....
But besides the Hi-Point carbine, I'd just go with a quality AR carbine.
lol, u know im not really sure its a 556 per say....like u said it's more of multi-cal that u don't even have to change barrels...i mean their so far ahead of the game its ridiculous...ive shot everything from 22lr to 50bmg thru that thing and it holds sub moa @900yards....dude at the range tried to trade me his colt collection for it and i said hell no i'm not an idiot!!! Anyway, Merry Christmas to you all
sorry about wasting the bandwidth with my pointless posts..im just in a Christmasy good mood.....i'll stop now
I've used and carried the entire spectrum of battlefield rifles, from the G3, FN-FAL, AK-47, to the Colt M16-A2, M16-A4, M4-A1, etc... and they have never let me down. Some, I liked more than others... and I believe, when going against hardened targets, there's no replacement for DISPLACEMENT. I love the exotics, and one of my favorite rifles is my little 10.5 inch Noveske N4. Would I run a Wilson, or a Les Baer, or a LWRC in the box with me? Sure... any day of the week. Having said all of that, MY idea of the "Perfect Battlefield Rifle" is one that goes "bang" every time I pull the trigger. One that does not fail me, one that I can count on to do it's job, if I do mine. There are a million and one ways to skin a cat... and you will get a million and one answers on what everyone thinks the perfect do everything rifle is.
However, I am in the process of a long term T&E for the PWS MK114... and I must say, I really, REALLY like this rifle.
I have it outfitted with a GA SSA trigger, and a TA31F ACOG. This rifle is accurate, eats anything I put in it, and runs super clean. The recoil pulse has to be felt to be appreciated, and on full auto, this thing is flat as a board.
I can see that the 16 inch version with an ACOG and a good SSA / SD-E trigger in it, would be a GREAT all around, do most everything rifle. No, it's not an SBR by any stretch of the imagination... but, you can run a 16 inch barrel very well. This rifle is completely reliable, and is more accurate than I ever imagined. I've never drank the piston Kool Aid, until I took possession of this rifle. IMHO, it would be well suited to be a great SHTF / GTH battle rifle.
Well, as far as the 5.56mm platform is concerned.
I know I'd take one back to the box with me...
Cheers!
Raven Armament
12-25-10, 01:38
A friend of mine made a request. As a fan of Bushmaster, etc., he has been somewhat persuaded that he should upgrade. But he said he wants to upgrade to "one and only one battlefield rifle" which is:
I'm sorry if I come off as a jerk, but what exactly is the intended purpose of said weapon? Battlefield? Join the military. They'll get ya GI Joe'd up from the toes up. Home defense? That makes more sense.
Is he going into combat for a defense contractor or just a shooter?
You can only get so much precision out of a 16 inch barrel and I don't think "long range" (600+ yards comes to mind) is obtainable for most shooters.
If he can afford a $1,200+ Nightforce optic, he can afford a much better rifle than a Bushmaster. They're nice to have around in case he runs out of toilet paper, but not for a fighting rifle unless he's trying to club a baby seal to death with it.
Magic_Salad0892
12-25-10, 05:14
KAC SR-15 E3, or SR-25 EMC.
SCAR counterparts wouldn't be a bad choice either.
Army Chief
12-25-10, 08:17
It occurs to me that this thread is going to continue to be all over the map, since the opening criterion left much open to interpretation, and it seems likely that we all have slightly different views of what "one and only battlefield rifle" might actually mean.
I'm old school enough to still think .30 caliber when we're talking about true battle rifles. Perhaps that is because I don't know which battlefield we're talking about, or who (or what) is likely to be on the other side of it, but 5.56x45mm would not be my first choice if I had to select only one rifle to perform in every possible role. A well-placed 7.62x51mm round will drop most any threat I can reasonably think of, can handle distance work, and is better suited to applications other than combat.
Since I kind of discounted the undefined "battlefield" component of the question, my thoughts turned toward a platform that could handle most any job, at most any time, in most any place. 7.62 is widely available on the battlefield (even if you have to de-link it), and .308 is widely available elsewhere. Decent surplus ammunition is widely available for training at a reasonable cost. The SCAR-H/SCAR 17s seemed a good choice here because it represents the most current proven technology, doesn't carry much of a weight penalty, and offers the ability to change barrels to suit the need at hand. I'm still waiting to see how much of an issue we're going to have with magazines, but it seems safe to presume that the options here will only increase.
If we stipulate that 5.56 is the round of choice, I'm not sure why I would look beyond the SR-15E3, unless it was to take advantage of the barrel change capability of the SCAR-L/SCAR 16s. I don't have enough first-hand experience with the latter system to say that I would prefer it over the KAC right now, and in the real, non-theoretical world, the SR-15E3 is my first-line carbine of choice.
In the end, the caliber debate is going to have a significant impact upon platform choice, and as I interpret the "one gun fits all" question, I tend to see more immediate benefit in the ballistic potential of the 7.62 than in the rate of fire advantage of the 5.56.
AC
I agree that if you want a true battlerifle it has got to be 7.62x51. If the SCAR 17, KAC SR-25, and I think I saw someone mention an HK are out of the price range. The DSA FALs are reasonably priced and he can mount the accessories with some of the options they provide.
Not to muddy the water here but what if we were to consider the 6.8?
One and only? My answer won't be horrifyingly long (for once):
SCAR 17.
AC
It's interesting that the more you study this platform the more attractive it becomes. It really looks as though it has unlimited potential as long as it is properly supported by FN. It offers great versatility including excellent accuracy, without the added weight that we have come to expect from battle rifles in todays market.
Failure2Stop
12-25-10, 12:20
Hi-Point Carbine all day...in a very distant 2nd HK 417 (if available).....3rd Scar 17 :sarcastic:
Smoking a lot of crack this Holiday Season?
decodeddiesel
12-25-10, 13:15
Smoking a lot of crack this Holiday Season?
Highpoint, It's the new KAC.
MarshallDodge
12-25-10, 14:11
o accurate long range shooter w/ Nightforce scope
o lightweight
o 16 inch barrel
o green laser
I won't post my horrifyingly long response. But you probably get the idea...
My choice would be a Knight SR-25.
Long range to me is more than 500 yards and I would want a .308 or 260 for this role and at least a 20" barrel. You can try to make this setup as light as possible but it is not going to be lightweight once you throw a scope, bipod, and laser on it.
Maybe I am out of the loop on something but why the green laser?
I'm sorry if I come off as a jerk, but what exactly is the intended purpose of said weapon? Battlefield? Join the military. They'll get ya GI Joe'd up from the toes up. Home defense? That makes more sense.
Is he going into combat for a defense contractor or just a shooter?
.
You are not coming off as a jerk at all.
The fellow who asked me the question did not seem to understand that there are many, many different applications for the AR15. Nor did he distinguish between a battlefield rifle which would have been used by buck privates at Kursk versus a rifle for house to house entry/clearing vs. a long range setup for a designated marksman or sniper (but he did have a concept of the Nightforce scope).
So my 'horrifically long response' referred to above was an attempt to give him some basic info about the various uses to which he might put the rifle, and some starting points for the fellow to consider (including the excellent Chart).
But to narrow things down a bit, this fellow will not spend any time in .mil or .LEO. He will engage in recreational shooting, plinking, home defense, and possibly some basic level competition (3 gun, ipsc).
Oh, and maybe he will be a division commander when the zombies come. ;)
This thread is quite useful because a lot of people have widely different concepts of what the battlefield might be and thus which rifle would be best. It is also to see people reaching outside the traditional AR15 platform based on their conception of the needs which must be addressed on a battlefield.
OH, the laser. I have no flipping idea what my friend is attempting to do with that (trim his eyebrows?).
kaiservontexas
12-25-10, 16:39
The firearm one knows well and goes bang.
As for any "battlefield" my butt is going to be staying out of the way to live and then thrive as much as possible. There is way more to know, then I will ever know about, with regards to total chaos and death then what gun is best suited for it.
Bolt_Overide
12-26-10, 00:11
SR-25 or SR-15 depending on enviorment. If only 1, SR-25 to cover all bases.
I've just been reading a great series at Survival Cache which breaks down several great AR rifle options you can check out Part 6 here: http://survivalcache.com/survival-rifle-survival-carbine-ar15-part-6/ and from there you can link to to the other articles in the series if interested.
Personally I am leaning toward the PWS AR setup and am also a fan of the MK114. I was thinking about the LWRC system for awhile but I like the single piece GPS in the PWS and the weight is just right as well. If I wasn't concerned with swapping with an AR-15 lower I already had and I had more cash I would probably go with the FN SCAR which is super light as well and has some great reviews from the field.
Not to muddy the water here but what if we were to consider the 6.8?
6.8mm is an intermediate cartridge, as is the 5.56, 7.63x39, etc. It was alluded to by AC that the definition of a 'battlefield rifle' is one that fires a full power rifle cartridge, i.e. 30 cal. That is correct in the traditional sense. So the field narrows a bit, as no one really uses a battle rifle as a primary issue item any longer.
You may have some 3rd world countries throwing out a few FAL's or G3's, but it would seem to be primarily limited to gorilla forces and 'revolutionaries'. Although, I still think some SA countries i.e. Chile, Argentina, etc. may still use the FAL as a battle rifle, while one or two others and a couple of Central Am. countries use the Galil in 7.62x52mm. I am not up on it like I used to be.
Nevertheless, it would seem that the AR10 type is the premier platform at this time. I still see an issue with standardization of parts and even mags though. Correct me if I am wrong on this.
I see the same issues as you Coleslaw. Spare parts and mags could be an issue. I would choose a KAC or LMT in .308.
First, define "battlefield". If you're a professional, depends where you are going and a separate issue. Otherwise, if you are saying SHTF, look around you. A typical reflex reaction is .308 at 500 yards, etc. I use an M4 since I can't even have a clear 300 yard shot where I am. Everything for me would be closer, so 5.56 is fine for me. If you are in TX, then mayb e you need 1000 yard capability. Have you such a shot? Can you do it? Then worry about building up a rifle. At one time I had a .338 Lapua. Note the past tense.
My upgrade to a Bushmaster was take the upper off the lower and put a BCM upper on the old bushy lower.
My upgrade to a Bushmaster was take the upper off the lower and put a BCM upper on the old bushy lower.
After shooting my SR-15, a buddy of mine from another department bought an SR-15 upper to mount to his RRA lower. Same general principle.
HC
You may have some 3rd world countries throwing out a few FAL's or G3's, but it would seem to be primarily limited to gorilla forces and 'revolutionaries'.
"gorilla" forces? Frankly, the idea of gorillas with G3s scares the shit out of me. Though I've heard that guerillas might get their mitts on some 7.62 x 51mm goodness.
Last time I checked, Pakistan used the G3.
RogerinTPA
01-01-11, 10:48
Any quality AR with an RDS and light will do. If I didn't have a few ARs around, and needed the extra "oomph", a quality 7.62x39 AK variant dressed out the same way, would me my choice.
wild_wild_wes
01-01-11, 10:49
Well I thought I'd toss this out there: the below rifle started out as a Bushmaster, but has been upgraded to the point where the only BM part left is the lower reciever: additions include Noveske 16" barrel, DD M4A1 RIS II, Giessele SSA trigger, etc. In fact, this is my one "do everything" AR.
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii173/USPx4/UB3-7.jpg
This is how I intend to deal with the Gorilla Threat.
Nice stick right there Wes
HC
I don't own a personal "battle rifle" right now - have too much fun shooting the ones I get issued, and the cost for a well made AR these days is simply beyond what I'm willing to spend.
The ONLY exception to this is the SCAR-H, which, if I had a spare $2200 lying around, I would snap up in a microsecond...
Regards,
Kevin
Back to the "Battlefield" aspect ...
Just a curiosity question from an old fart:
In your current environment if you really needed to make more than one magazine change, how many of you feel you could survive into that third magazine, regardless of platform or caliber?
Not trying to hijack the thread, but curious about your perceived support infrastructure (neighbors, family, etc.) and confidence level.
Having said that, like most of you, I am armed to the teeth. :D I just hope all I do with them is shoot the shit out of 'em recreationally, then leave them to the grandkids.
In your current environment if you really needed to make more than one magazine change, how many of you feel you could survive into that third magazine, regardless of platform or caliber?
Good point. Especially considering the fact that we are talking about 20 or 30 round magazines in the majority of the rifles in discussion.
In a one on one kind of situation, the likelyhood that you need to swap magazines more than once (60 rounds and the fight is still on?) is next to nill. But hell, if you can't make a solid hit once out of 60 attempts, you really shouldn't be considered safe to use the rifle in question in a serious situation.
HC
Why the laser?
I'd say if he wants to do it all, Recce from BCM with a 13" TRX-E and a micro-red dot on a 45 degree LaRue mount.
A Nightforce 2.5-10 should meet the grade, if he can find one. Or a 2-12 IOR Valdada. Definitely in a LaRue mount.
I like .308 Win. chambered rifles and have it covered in the semiauto area with an HK-91. But I hardly ever choose it for the common scenarios of range use, home defense or just walking around the property or woods. Why? Because it is heavy, and the ammunition is heavy. As I age, I like the rifles to be a lot lighter. When I was in my twenties, I wouldn't have minded.
Recoil tolerance is another issue. How many can fire 200 rounds of .308 without becoming weary of the recoil? I guess that is why I like 5.56...the ammo and recoil are both light. Shooters can take a lot more of what the AR15 and other 5.56 platforms will dish out and keep on shooting.
Unless a shooter is in an actual battle against enemy personnel, anybody involved in a home defense situation will not be engaging targets at 500 yards. I realize it is still wise to be prepared, but I'm just sayin'...I'd take the AR15 in 5.56 for general short range use (300yards and under) and a bolt gun in .308 for the general long range stuff. I guess it's up to the individual.
In a one on one kind of situation, the likelyhood that you need to swap magazines more than once (60 rounds and the fight is still on?) is next to nill. But hell, if you can't make a solid hit once out of 60 attempts, you really shouldn't be considered safe to use the rifle in question in a serious situation.
HC
I agree completely. I was thinking more of a SHTF situation where you and your support group (if any) or neighborhood, were actually under assault. Anarchy, gang violence, total collapse of society, etc.
Scary as hell.
I am Ex-Navy (1965 to 1978), reasonably competent, live away from major population areas, have a retired LEO across the street (interlocking fields of fire) and I would really hate to get into an extended confrontation. Just seems historically that odds are against defenders.
But what's mine is mine. And I'm not giving it up.
For the two 'masters' of the English language, 120mm and wild_wild_wes, I would have you consider the verbiage in question is in italics .
I agree completely. I was thinking more of a SHTF situation where you and your support group (if any) or neighborhood, were actually under assault. Anarchy, gang violence, total collapse of society, etc.
Scary as hell.
I am Ex-Navy (1965 to 1978), reasonably competent, live away from major population areas, have a retired LEO across the street (interlocking fields of fire) and I would really hate to get into an extended confrontation. Just seems historically that odds are against defenders.
But what's mine is mine. And I'm not giving it up.
Also former Navy (04-08) as well as formerly being with Border Patrol until moving back to the East. I'd like to think I know how to handle myself in both small unit and individual tactics. Kind of a common thing down along the border to be separated from your partner/back up by a hundred yards or more depending on the situation.
I too live within spitting distance of another Navy vet and a handful of guys from three local PDs. We're all more or less range buddies when we go, and we have a group crisis plan complete with rally points and what everyone is responsible for. As a tactical qualified paramedic, it's kind of my bag to ensure I have enough medical crap to tide us over if need be. The reality is, we're prepared for everything we can plan for, but there are always variables that remain unaccounted for. The nature of "anarchy" I s'pose.
HC
In your current environment if you really needed to make more than one magazine change, how many of you feel you could survive into that third magazine, regardless of platform or caliber?
That is a great point of course. Further, even assuming a very high level of skill, how many firefights is a person likely to survive? I do not know the answer, but I also do not like the odds.
That is a great point of course. Further, even assuming a very high level of skill, how many firefights is a person likely to survive? I do not know the answer, but I also do not like the odds.
The odds of surviving one more firefight are better if you shoot back than if you don't.
Having rifle may be enough to prevent a fight.
If I recall the quote correctly, "You cannot invade America. There is a rifle behind every blade of grass"
For the two 'masters' of the English language, 120mm and wild_wild_wes, I would have you consider the verbiage in question is in italics .
Then it is laughing with.. ;)
wild_wild_wes
01-01-11, 22:01
Fun Fact --> I scored 680 in the Verbal section of the SAT. And, that was back in 1983, when it was graded harder than as of late.
But my Math score was....well, we won't get into that.
Army Chief
01-01-11, 22:23
Fun Fact --> I scored 680 in the Verbal section of the SAT. And, that was back in 1983, when it was graded harder than as of late.
But my Math score was....well, we won't get into that.
Kind of irrelevant to the thread at large, but you're in good company. =]
AC
The odds of surviving one more firefight are better if you shoot back than if you don't.
Having rifle may be enough to prevent a fight.
If I recall the quote correctly, "You cannot invade America. There is a rifle behind every blade of grass"
I LOVE that quote.....there is a screen saver that shows some good ole boy and his AR 15 in a corn field that always cracks me up when I see it.
Ferris2son
01-01-11, 23:57
Of traditional battle rifles the choice would be new M1, FAL, M1A or SCAR-H. I own all four and the SCAR wins out over the M1A for modularity and wieght.
Steyr AUG A2 in 5.56 with 16" barrel (U.S. A3 has not proven itself yet)
If using 7.62, make it a Galil
LMT MRP rifle length with altered 14.5 afghan and KAC 3T
LMT MRP rifle length with altered 14.5 afghan and KAC 3T
I like the idea...I will add a bit since we are cheating by using a MRP stretch chassis;)
I would run a 14.5" Rock CL as the main stay...then I would carry a Rock 16" SS with a NXS 2.5 along with a Atlas bipod...that way I could have a true light sniper within 2-3 min. yet maintain a true M4 style rifle with a LW 14.5" high volume CL barrel and something like a T-1/3x setup for humping and such.
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