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Safetyhit
08-18-07, 00:05
This is not good. How, except for world peace :rolleyes: , will this terrible situation get better any time soon? Can we compare this ammo shortage with any other in recent memory?
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Wars in Iraq, Afghanistan Hit Home With Ammunition Shortage for Police Departments
Friday, August 17, 2007

E-MAIL STORY PRINTER FRIENDLY VERSION
Troops training for and fighting the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are firing more than 1 billion bullets a year, contributing to ammunition shortages hitting police departments nationwide and preventing some officers from training with the weapons they carry on patrol.

An Associated Press review of dozens of police and sheriff's departments found that many are struggling with delays of as long as a year for both handgun and rifle ammunition. And the shortages are resulting in prices as much as double what departments were paying just a year ago.

"There were warehouses full of it. Now, that isn't the case," said Al Aden, police chief in Pierre, S.D.

Departments in all parts of the country reported delays or reductions in training and, in at least one case, a proposal to use paint-ball guns in firing drills as a way to conserve real ammo.

Forgoing proper, repetitive weapons training comes with a price on the streets, police say, in diminished accuracy, quickness on the draw and basic decision-making skills.

"You are not going to be as sharp or as good, especially if an emergency situation comes up," said Sgt. James MacGillis, range master for the Milwaukee police. "The better-trained officer is the one that is less likely to use force."

The pinch is blamed on a skyrocketing demand for ammunition that followed the start of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, driven by the training needs of a military at war, and, ironically, police departments raising their own practice regiments following the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. The increasingly voracious demand for copper and lead overseas, especially in China, has also been a factor.

The military is in no danger of running out because it gets the overwhelming majority of its ammunition from a dedicated plant outside Kansas City. But police are at the mercy of commercial manufacturers.

None of the departments surveyed by the AP said they had pulled guns off the street, and many departments reported no problems buying ammunition. But others told the AP they face higher prices and months-long delays.

In Oklahoma City, for example, officers cannot qualify with AR-15 rifles because the department does not have enough .223-caliber ammunition - a round similar to that fired by the military's M-16 and M4 rifles. Last fall, an ammunition shortage forced the department to cancel qualification courses for several different guns.

"We've got to teach the officers how to use the weapon, and they've got to be able to go to the range and qualify with the weapon and show proficiency," said department spokesman Capt. Steve McCool. "And you can't do that unless you have the rounds."

In Milwaukee, supplies of .40-caliber handgun bullets and .223-caliber rifle rounds have gotten so low the department has repeatedly dipped into its ammunition reserves. Some weapons training has already been cut by 30 percent, and lessons on rifles have been altered to conserve bullets.

Unlike troops in an active war zone, patrol officers rarely fire their weapons in the line of duty. Even then, an officer in a firefight isn't likely to shoot more than a dozen rounds, said Asheville, N.C., police training officer Lt. Gary Gudac. That, he said, makes training with live ammunition for real-life situations - such as a vehicle stop - so essential.

"We spend a lot of money and time making sure the officers are able to shoot a moving target or shoot back into a vehicle," Gudac said. "Any time we have a deadly force encounter, one of the first things we pull is the officer's qualification records."

In Trenton, N.J., a lack of available ammunition led the city to give up plans to convert its force to .45-caliber handguns. Last year, the sheriff's department in Bergen County, N.J., had to borrow 26,000 rounds of .40-caliber ammunition to complete twice-a-year training for officers.

"Now we're planning at least a year and a half, even two years in advance," said Bergen County Detective David Macey, a firearms examiner.

In Phoenix, an order for .38-caliber rounds placed a year ago has yet to arrive, meaning no officer can currently qualify with a .38 Special revolver.

"We got creative in how we do in training," said Sgt. Bret Draughn, who supervises the department's ammunition purchases. "We had to cut out extra practice sessions. We cut back in certain areas so we don't have to cut out mandatory training."

In Wyoming, the state leaned on its ammunition suppler earlier this year so every state trooper could qualify on the standard-issue AR-15 rifle, said Capt. Bill Morse. Rifle rounds scheduled to arrive in January did not show up until May, leading to a rush of troopers trying to qualify by the deadline.

"We didn't (initially) have enough ammunition to qualify everybody in the state," Morse said.

In Indianapolis, police spokesman Lt. Jeff Duhamell said the department has enough ammunition for now, but is considering using paint balls during a two-week training course, during which recruits fire normally fire about 1,000 rounds each.

"It's all based on the demands in Iraq," Duhamell said. "A lot of the companies are trying to keep up with the demands of the war and the demands of training police departments. The price increased too - went up 15 to 20 percent - and they were advising us ... to order as much as you can."

Higher prices are common. In Madison, Wis., police Sgt. Lauri Schwartz said the city spent $40,000 on ammunition in 2004, a figure that rose to $53,000 this year. The department is budgeting for prices 22 percent higher in 2008. In Arkansas, Fort Smith police now pay twice as much as they did last year for 500-round cases of .40-caliber ammunition.

"We really don't have a lot of choices," Cpl. Mikeal Bates said. "In our profession, we have to have it."

The Lake City Army Ammunition Plant in Independence, Mo., directly supplies the military with more than 80 percent of its small-arms ammunition. Production at the factory has more than tripled since 2002, rising from roughly 425 million rounds that year to 1.4 billion rounds in 2006, according to the Joint Munitions Command at the Rock Island Arsenal in Illinois.

Most of the rest of the military's small-arms ammunition comes from Falls Church, Va.-based General Dynamics Corp. (GD), which relies partly on subcontractors - some of whom also supply police departments. Right now, their priority is filling the military's orders, said Darren Newsom, general manager of The Hunting Shack in Stevensville, Mont., which ships 250,000 rounds a day as it supplies ammunition to 3,000 police departments nationwide.

"There's just a major shortage on ammo in the U.S. right now," he said, pointing to his current backorder for 2.5 million rounds of .223-caliber ammunition. "It's just terrible."

Police say the .223-caliber rifle round is generally the hardest to find. Even though rounds used by the military are not exactly the same as those sold to police, they are made from the same metals and often using the same equipment.

Alliant Techsystems Inc. (ATK), which runs the Lake City plant for the Army, also produced more than 5 billion rounds for hunting and police use last year, making the Edina, Minn.-based company the country's largest ammunition manufacturer. Spokesman Bryce Hallowell questioned whether the Iraq war had a direct effect on the ammunition available to police, but said there was no doubt that surging demand was affecting supply.

"We had looked at this and didn't know if it was an anomaly or a long-term trend," Hallowell said. "We started running plants 24/7. Now we think it is long-term, so we're going to build more production capability."

That unrelenting demand for ammunition will continue to put a premium on planning ahead, said Maricopa County, Ariz., Sheriff Joe Arpaio, who so far has kept his department from experiencing any shortage-related problems.

"If we have a problem, I'll go make an issue of it - if I have to go to Washington or the military," Arpaio said. "That is a serious thing ... if you don't have the firepower to protect the public and yourself."

BushmasterFanBoy
08-18-07, 00:54
We have a forum for this thing now;)

Anyways, I'm pretty young and only shooting AR's for the last 4 years, so I'm not exactly sure if ammo was ever really easy to come by. I still remember getting 1000 rounds of Xm193 for $200, and that was with virtually no bargain hunting.:(

What do some of the old-timers think about the ammo situation? I'd love to (and by love I mean that I would be filled with deep, bitter jealousy) hear about how .223 "cost half a penny, and then we'd save up our half pennies in change and get an ice-cream cone for a nickel.":D

Alpha Sierra
08-18-07, 06:36
Investing in reloading equipment and hoarding ammunition components are wise moves.

Safetyhit
08-18-07, 10:26
Sorry for putting this in the wrong forum. However, the issue really does go just beyond ammunition if you think about it. It appears to be affecting everyone but the military, and I can't help but wonder when they will be next. I know it has been drying up for a while, but this is getting really bad.

Really curious if someone can see a bright spot here or perhaps in the near future somehow. More manufacturers, more copper mining, or maybe more imports?

Boss Hogg
08-19-07, 13:59
if lead and copper are in such high demand by entities such as the US military, and rapidly growing China and India, then why does 115 grain 9mm cost $140/1000 retail at Dick's, while 55-62 grain .223, whose bullet uses half as much material, cost twice (or more) as much?

People are buying into this scarcity BS and hoarding is driving the market up. OMG I won't be able to get .223 if the SHTF!!!!

Alpha Sierra
08-19-07, 18:44
if lead and copper are in such high demand by entities such as the US military, and rapidly growing China and India, then why does 115 grain 9mm cost $140/1000 retail at Dick's, while 55-62 grain .223, whose bullet uses half as much material, cost twice (or more) as much?

People are buying into this scarcity BS and hoarding is driving the market up. OMG I won't be able to get .223 if the SHTF!!!!

Did you forget about the higher brass and gunpowder content in rifle ammunition?

You're not going to stop hoarding, so either stock up yourself with ammo or components to make it, or just pay up the future price.

tinman44
08-19-07, 20:38
yeah well i have said it before, here is an oppurtunity for some company to make it big producing ammo for cheap, cut the cost and sell the most. and at this rate i'll never have enough ammo to go to a class :(

tinman44
08-19-07, 20:39
People are buying into this scarcity BS and hoarding is driving the market up. OMG I won't be able to get .223 if the SHTF!!!!

its probably more likely supply demand thing than hoarding but i'm sure thats what you meant

ST911
08-20-07, 00:25
Is AR ammo getting scarce, or is affordable AR ammo getting scarce? There is plenty of AE, Remington MC, and assorted reman on various local shelves, but it's commanding a premium. When push comes to shove it can be had, but at a price few are willing to pay.

mmike87
08-21-07, 05:49
I walked into Walmart the other day and they had several boxes of the 200 round value packs of Federal .223 ammo. I bought some for $57 a box. I guess that's reasonable by today's standards.

twodollarbill
08-21-07, 11:19
I had started another thread inquiring about cost of Winchester M855....no replys to date.
In June I had ordered 10 cases of Winchester Q3269...white box M855..and paid $350/case.
In June of '06 it was under $250/case
I just completed a deal with my supplier on 20 cases and he wanted $375/case. He told me my next order would be over $400 if not $450.
I don't think he was pressuring me.....he just didn't know either.
A seller on gunbroker.com is listing Winchester Q3269 at $430 and selling them....usually within 24 hours.
Supply and demand is driving the price on this one.

RogerinTPA
08-21-07, 22:40
Panic buying! Supply and demand! Don't be an ammo whore any more!:D

FlyAndFight
08-23-07, 12:25
Every visit I do to Walmart, regardless of what I'm buying, will include at least a couple of boxes of WWB .9mm and some .223 when available. It's not a big hit and little by little my "stash" continues to remain "stocked" (to compensate for my trips to the range.)

The "good stuff" remains stashed away for a rainy day.

Lumpy196
08-23-07, 13:56
Every visit I do to Walmart, regardless of what I'm buying, will include at least a couple of boxes of WWB .9mm


Those must be some TINY bullets ;)

RogerinTPA
08-27-07, 21:05
Just bought 2k of Barnual (Russian) .223, 62grain FMJ from Wideners last night for 3.68 per box x 100. $368.00 +21.86 (Shipping and handling)= $389.86. I think the price is a little higher for less than 50 boxes. I've shot this ammo before and shoots cleaner than wolf ammo, good accuracy for plinking, without the foul smell. Just thought I get extra ammo before the real/perceived price increase next month. :D Even so, it's still a good buy.

msr
08-30-07, 19:03
Walmarts in my AO will only carry expensive .223 ammo!

Safetyhit
08-31-07, 18:13
I remember when premium boxed IMI M855 was for sale on gunbroker for about $0.30 cents per round not too long ago. Seemed like a lot then, but I wanted as much tier one ammo as I could afford. Fortunately, at the time that was quite a bit. Couldn't buy it like that now, don't have the money and it no longer seems to exist anywhere anyway.



So glad I saved it. :)

Submariner
08-31-07, 19:41
I remember when premium boxed IMI M855 was for sale on gunbroker for about $0.30 cents per round not too long ago. Seemed like a lot then, but I wanted as much tier one ammo as I could afford.

Do you really, in your heart of hearts, believe that the Izzys sell "tier one" ammo for US civilian consumption? I'll bet you think WW Q3131A is "tier one", too, because it was made by IMI.

Safetyhit
08-31-07, 21:03
Do you really, in your heart of hearts, believe that the Izzys sell "tier one" ammo for US civilian consumption? I'll bet you think WW Q3131A is "tier one", too, because it was made by IMI.


Over 3 years ago, I joined AR15.com and also joined Gunbroker. During that first year, I participated in many, many threads about ammo and started a few of my own at least. Some of the most knowledgeable members there often spoke of boxed IMI M855 as the only first tier ammo available on the civilian market. I often questioned whether this was true, 100% non-reject, first tier ammo, as I wanted some if it was true. Never one time did anyone ever dispute that it was. Again, these were individuals who I am almost 100% certain would know. Perhaps they were all wrong?

Submariner
09-01-07, 06:50
Perhaps.;)

jmart
09-01-07, 09:37
Over 3 years ago, I joined AR15.com and also joined Gunbroker. During that first year, I participated in many, many threads about ammo and started a few of my own at least. Some of the most knowledgeable members there often spoke of boxed IMI M855 as the only first tier ammo available on the civilian market. I often questioned whether this was true, 100% non-reject, first tier ammo, as I wanted some if it was true. Never one time did anyone ever dispute that it was. Again, these were individuals who I am almost 100% certain would know. Perhaps they were all wrong?

I've read exactly the same reports that you have, and perhaps at one time it held true. But I've also recently seen a number of references by Pat that this ammo isn't anything to write home about -- popped primers being one of the recurring issues.

Safetyhit
09-01-07, 12:37
Perhaps.;)



You insult my intelligence in your previous reply, now this lame duck response. Just brilliant.

Safetyhit
09-01-07, 12:38
I've read exactly the same reports that you have, and perhaps at one time it held true. But I've also recently seen a number of references by Pat that this ammo isn't anything to write home about -- popped primers being one of the recurring issues.


At least your answer has some merit. Not sure what to think, but maybe Pat would be kind enough to add his opinion here?

FlyAndFight
09-02-07, 18:38
Those must be some TINY bullets ;)

Why, I oughta... :p

Submariner
09-03-07, 12:19
At least your answer has some merit. Not sure what to think, but maybe Pat would be kind enough to add his opinion here?

Not Pat but what he has written is easy enough to find:


One shooter was using the made in israel, low quality Q3131A. It lived up to its shoddy reputation by popping primers at the rate of 2 or more per magazine. Heat was an aggravating factor, but the 5.56 marked chamber was in fact much smaller then that, and required a pass with the excellent Ned Christiansen Reamer.

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7026

Ammo will be a problem for the foreseeable future, or until China gets nuked by the free world, whichever comes first. Wolf is starting to look better right now, especially as compared to other makes (think Q3131A and other garbage).
Having said that, if you plan on training in the next 18 months, you better have your ammo ordered or in hand pretty quick. If you request a seat in class and then don’t show up because you couldn’t get ammo, too bad, so sad. That will be your problem, and not someone else’s.

http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=training&Number=49601&Searchpage=1&Main=49601&Words=Q3131A+Pat_Rogers&topic=&Search=true#Post49601

The biggest problem was with ammo. The MPD shooters were using Q3131A, which is- at best- garbage.
It has once more lived up to the quality control standards by depositing popped primers into the lower receiver, bolt gas key and gas tubes of several guns.
Mike Hueser’s loaner carbine is locked up solid, probably because of a primer in the bolt cam pin slot (something we have seen before).
I haven’t seen any ammo from that part of the world- IMI, TZZ or the 3131A that I would be happy with. The experience over the past week just validate what was already known.

http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=training&Number=46572&Searchpage=1&Main=46572&Words=Q3131A+Pat_Rogers&topic=&Search=true#Post46572


If Lake City, a government facility operated by ATK, cannot release tier one ammo to the U.S. taxpayer, what makes you think that IMI, another government-controlled entity, would do so? It seems that Israel is always fighting someone. It would also seem reasonable that, like the US, they provide the best to their troops.

Absent evidence to the contrary, we have the quotes above to compare with the comments of those on gunbroker and TOS whom you cited. Who is more credible?

I drank the IMI Koolaid, too. Then after these comments by Pat and some additional research, I decided to sell the cases of Q3131A I had stashed away and go with Black Hills. This was after shooting 2700 rounds of South African in one of Pat's 3-day classes (three of us shooting it in Colts) and having at least 15 misfires with solid primer strikes from one particular lot.

Jay Cunningham
09-03-07, 12:51
I've transitioned my carbine practice to the AK-74 pattern guns - saves quite a bit on ammo these days.

Safetyhit
09-03-07, 17:53
Not Pat but what he has written is easy enough to find:



If Lake City, a government facility operated by ATK, cannot release tier one ammo to the U.S. taxpayer, what makes you think that IMI, another government-controlled entity, would do so? I told you exactly why I think so and where I got my information.It seems that Israel is always fighting someone. It would also seem reasonable that, like the US, they provide the best to their troops.Yes, it would.

Absent evidence to the contrary, we have the quotes above to compare with the comments of those on gunbroker and TOS whom you cited. Who is more credible?Of course Pat is credible, but so are many others on TOS as well. Again, I listened to those that had the experience to make the statement. Just one of those was a very well known member there who's screenname refers to an ancient city that was breached by a giant wooden horse. He said he was absolutely certain that boxed IMI M855 was first tier ammo. I asked for clarification and got it on several occasions to my satisfaction, and so naturally I was convinced. Why would I have doubted he or the others with so many saying the same thing?

I drank the IMI Koolaid, too. Then after these comments by Pat and some additional research, I decided to sell the cases of Q3131A I had stashed away and go with Black Hills. I am not referring to Q3131A, never was.This was after shooting 2700 rounds of South African in one of Pat's 3-day classes (three of us shooting it in Colts) and having at least 15 misfires with solid primer strikes from one particular lot.

You may be right, but you have not proven that here. Again, IMI Q3131A was never the topic of my discussions, boxed IMI M855 was. While the manufacturer may be the same, I doubt that IMI first tier ammo has a general issue with primers. As you say, they are at war all the time and that would likely not be tolerated. Pat could have been referring to a batch or batches. Look at Lake City M193, XM193 and XM193PD. All supposed to be of a different quality, but all from the same plant.

Submariner
09-03-07, 18:51
You may be right, but you have not proven that here.

Nor have you, sir. Troy is your expert witness. Fine. This one has has come to a different conclusion based on his experience, "I haven’t seen any ammo from that part of the world- IMI [emphasis added], TZZ or the 3131A that I would be happy with."

If you are doing more than making ammo forts and unless you have a metric buttload of "premium" IMI stashed away, you will have to replace it at some point.

With what? That is the real question, eh?

This just in!


Originally posted by Troy:

Okay, from best to worst:

7. M193-class ammo, 55gr FMJ-BT bullet. True M193 ammo will be sealed at the bullet and primer, will have a crimped primer and bullet, and is a 5.56 pressure loading. 1:12 or faster twist required.

- Lake City M193 (genuine surplus M193; no longer available)
- Federal XM193 (seconds) or XM193PD (thirds)
- Winchester Q3131 (seconds)
- Winchester Q3131A (manufactured by IMI)
- IMI M193
- PMC, '98 and earlier
- South African M1Ax in battlepacks

8. M855-class ammo, 62gr FMJ-BT bullet with mild steel penetrator in the nose. True M193 [sic] ammo will be sealed at the bullet and primer, will have a crimped primer and bullet, and is a 5.56 pressure loading. 1:10 or faster twist required.

- Lake City M855 (genuine surplus M855; no longer available)
- Winchester M855 (genuine surplus M855; no longer available)
- Federal XM855 (seconds) or XM855PD (thirds)
- Canadian IVI (genuine surplus M855; no longer available)
- British SS-109

http://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=185

I don't see boxed IMI M855 on Troy's list. Do you?

Safetyhit
09-03-07, 19:46
Nor have you, sir. Troy is your expert witness. Fine. This one has has come to a different conclusion based on his experience, "I haven’t seen any ammo from that part of the world- IMI [emphasis added], TZZ or the 3131A that I would be happy with."

If you are doing more than making ammo forts and unless you have a metric buttload of "premium" IMI stashed away, you will have to replace it at some point.

With what? That is the real question, eh?




I never said Troy was my only point of reference, just one of many. And alot of people don't like M855 because of what I heard was a lesser accuracy and non-fragmentation. Your trying hard, though.

Guess my only good ammo is my 5.56 TAP, MK262, Black Hills .223 75gr and 77gr., and XM193. Have lots of those as well. I suppose I'll take my many rounds of brand new boxed IMI M855 and get to building that fort. :rolleyes:

Safetyhit
09-03-07, 19:59
I don't see boxed IMI M855 on Troy's list. Do you?


You tacked this on after I posted, so I did not see it when I commented. I will say that I am very surprised to see that IMI is not on his list. I am being absolutely honest when I say I had many a discussion about IMI M855, and the only drawback I heard about was the accuracy and lack of effective fragmentation. I have absolutely no explanation as to why is it absent from his list, none. I mean, even if it is no longer perceived as top quality, it should still be listed at the bottom, not completely absent like it never existed at all. :confused:

Submariner
09-03-07, 20:12
You tacked this on after I posted, so I did not see it when I commented. I will say that I am very surprised to see that IMI is not on his list.

Yeah, it just kept getting better and better so I kept adding more and more.:D Here is the whole thing.


Originally posted by Troy

Okay, for the folks who haven't read all the data which explains WHY (and I'm not going to re-hash that here for the hundredth time; if you want the "why", read the tacked posts and all related links), I'm going to break it down.

First, a few points:

5.56 vs. .223 loads. A "5.56" load means that the round is loaded to "military" pressures, which exceeds SAAMI's safe rating, and generally means from 120 fps (75-77gr bullets) to 200 fps (55gr bullets) additional muzzle velocity. AR-based rifles with "5.56" or Wylde chambers can fire this ammo safely. More muzzle velocity means a longer fragmentation range, so 5.56 loads are more desirable. Having said that, you are almost always better off using a better-performing bullet in a .223 load than a lesser-performing bullet in a 5.56 load.

Generally, Open-Tip Match (OTM) bullets, also called Jacketed "Hollow-Point - Boat-Tail, Match" (JHP-BT Match) or Boat-Tail Hollow-Point, Match (BTHP Match) bullets, are the most reliable performers, as the consistancy in construction required for match accuracy also results in consistant terminal ballistic performance.


Okay, from best to worst:

1. Loads using the Nosler 77gr or Hornady 75gr OTM bullet. While these bullets may be slightly less accurate *in some rifles* than the Sierra MK, they offer better wounding capability. These bullets maximize terminal ballistic performance AND they extend fragmentation range over other loads, and even provide *some* fragmentation range from 10" barrels. These bullets require 1:8 or tighter twist barrels, though they may work in SOME 1:9 barrels.

- Hornady 75gr TAP (5.56 load)
- Hornady 75gr TAP or TAP-PD (.223 load)
- Black Hills loads with 75gr Hornady (.223)
- (no known factory load using the Nosler bullet)

2. Loads using the Sierra 77gr MK. Like all MK bullets, this one doesn't start to yaw until it passes through several inches of flesh, resulting in a longer "neck" area of the wound profile, and thus being rated slightly lower than the Nosler or Hornady bullets.

- Black Hills Mk262 Mod1 (5.56, cosmetic seconds are available)
- Black Hills 77gr Sierra loads (.223)
- Federal 77gr Sierra (.223)

77grain MatchKing OTM in calibrated ballistic gelatin. Note the long "neck" before fragmentation begins.

[graphic omitted]

3. Loads using the 68gr Hornady OTM. Note: barrel length needs to be 14.5" or longer; these will not have enough velocity to fragment from a 10" barrel and only a couple of yards from an 11.5" barrel. 1:9 or faster twist required.

- Hornady 68gr Match (.223)
- Black Hills 68gr Hornady (.223)

4. Loads using the 69gr Sierra MK. Note: barrel length needs to be 14.5" or longer; these will not have enough velocity to fragment from a 10" barrel and only a couple of yards from an 11.5" barrel. 1:9 or faster twist required.

- Federal 69gr Sierra (.223)
- Black Hills 69gr Sierra (.223)

5. Loads using Trophy-Bonded Bear Claw bullets. The 62gr performs a bit better than the 55gr, but the 62gr bullet is ONLY available in the LEO-only Federal Tactical line. As a bonded-core bullet, these are excellent in situations with an intermediate barrier, and are the #1 performers when having to shoot through glass. Note: these soft-point bullets have an exposed lead tip and cannot be rechambered more than a few times. May not feed reliably in some rifles.

Federal Tactical 62gr TBBC (.223)
Federal Tactical 55gr TBBC (.223)
Federal Premium 55gr TBBC (.223)

6. Loads using the Winchester 64gr PowerPoint bullet. Note: these soft-point bullets have an exposed lead tip and cannot be rechambered more than a few times. May not feed reliably in some rifles. 1:10 or faster twist required.

- Winchester Supreme PowerPoint Plus (.223)
- Winchester Super-X PowerPoint (.223)

7. M193-class ammo, 55gr FMJ-BT bullet. True M193 ammo will be sealed at the bullet and primer, will have a crimped primer and bullet, and is a 5.56 pressure loading. 1:12 or faster twist required.

- Lake City M193 (genuine surplus M193; no longer available)
- Federal XM193 (seconds) or XM193PD (thirds)
- Winchester Q3131 (seconds)
- Winchester Q3131A (manufactured by IMI)
- IMI M193
- PMC, '98 and earlier
- South African M1Ax in battlepacks

8. M855-class ammo, 62gr FMJ-BT bullet with mild steel penetrator in the nose. True M193 [sic] ammo will be sealed at the bullet and primer, will have a crimped primer and bullet, and is a 5.56 pressure loading. 1:10 or faster twist required.

- Lake City M855 (genuine surplus M855; no longer available)
- Winchester M855 (genuine surplus M855; no longer available)
- Federal XM855 (seconds) or XM855PD (thirds)
- Canadian IVI (genuine surplus M855; no longer available)
- British SS-109

This list should give you an idea of what is preferred, and in what order. Obviously, many of the loads at the top are quite a bit more expensive than the loads further down (though the TBBC loads are by far the most expensive), but if you're looking just at performance, then this should be your guideline.

I might not have gotten every load out there, but you should be able figure it out if there's a similar load that I didn't mention. [all bold added for emphasis]

"Premium" IMI M855, even by extrapolation, would come in pretty low on this list. Caveat emptor.

That said, it beats not having anything to shoot. Not all AR's have bayonet lugs.


You tacked this on after I posted, so I did not see it when I commented. I will say that I am very surprised to see that IMI is not on his list. I am being absolutely honest when I say I had many a discussion about IMI M855, and the only drawback I heard about was the accuracy and lack of effective fragmentation. I have absolutely no explanation as to why is it absent from his list, none. I mean, even if it is no longer perceived as top quality, it should still be listed at the bottom, not completely absent like it never existed at all. :confused:



I might not have gotten every load out there, but you should be able figure it out if there's a similar load that I didn't mention.

Interesting that he ranked foreign material below MADE IN USA...

Safetyhit
09-03-07, 20:44
Yeah, it just kept getting better and better so I kept adding more and more.:D Don't be a wiseguy...Here is the whole thing.



"Premium" IMI M855, even by extrapolation, would come in pretty low on this list. Caveat emptor. Hardly. I've shot lots of it, over 800 rounds, without incident.

That said, it beats not having anything to shoot. Not all AR's have bayonet lugs. I see you fancy yourself as a funny guy, but I am not sold that my IMI is garbage by a long shot. Troy himself touted this ammo, often when not speaking to me. He NEVER preferred it by any means, but said it was great quality ammo. Again, he also said it was the ONLY first tier military ammo "available" for civilian purchase. Others did as well numerous times, I am certain. I would not say this here and risk ridicule if I were not certain of what I read several times there.



Anyway, you did your homework, Submariner, I give you that. :cool:

Still, am I to assume that IMI, who supplies a military who is always at war, supplies it's troops with bad ammo? Or, is it possible that some of what gets here is bad somehow? Maybe compareable to the previous Lake City M193/XM193PD reference? Or, do they now have a primer issue that was not there two or three years ago? Something seems amiss if they are no longer considered quality rounds.

Submariner
09-03-07, 21:41
Stock brokers "tout" stocks. And often they make us "broker".:D

Lotsa' folks over there "tout" South African as well. It is allegedly one of the premier SHTF rounds. They shoot a few rounds and stash the rest for whatever in the water-proof, heavy-duty vinyl Battle Packs. Well, engaging a target at three yards and hearing "Click" instead of "Bang" is a real eye-opener. Not once but multiple times inside 25 yards.

Got blaster?


Still, am I to assume that IMI, who supplies a military who is always at war, supplies it's troops with bad ammo? Or, is it possible that some of what gets here is bad somehow? Maybe compareable to the previous Lake City M193/XM193PD reference? Or, do they now have a primer issue that was not there two or three years ago? Something seems amiss if they are no longer considered quality rounds.

I think I asked this before. Why would the Izzies send their best here when they have mooselimbs to shoot? To make a few bucks? Hell, we GIVE them foreign/military aid!

Troy put real LC M193 (first tier) before XM193 (second tier) and XM193PD (third tier). Same for M855. It's based on QC and what meets the standard. Do you reasonably expect IMI to produce ammo that meets spec 100% of the time. Of course not. They are not super human. Where is there a market for their not quite good enough ammo (like XM193)? Their floor sweepings (like XM193PD)? Nice military brown boxes with English, not Hebrew, printing or nice white Winchester USA boxes. It's all about marketing crap. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.