View Full Version : Wolf and other steel cased ammo!
I start by qualifing my following remarks by saying I don't shoot steel cased ammo. That being said why do you shoot it? I mean other then saving money? From what I've read here and on other sites it has some very serious quality issues! Case in point see attached post on another site: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=518301:eek:
I for one am more then willing to spend a few extra dollars for quality training ammo and this is why I will stick with using XM193 for such. I just got through inspecting over 1900 rounds and found ZERO defects like the one in above thread! Never had a dud round, very consistant velocities and good accuracy with XM193. And the big plus it's American ammo! :)
theblackknight
12-26-10, 15:03
Im almost out of my last case of privi m193 and am thinking of trying Silver Bear. Money is just too tight. I dont shoot at 200 meters anyway. I'm read the "silver bear thread" at barfcom and seemed to be pretty good ammo for range use. The nickel plating seems to save it.
I ran 200 r of Wolf thru about 2 years ago. Yeah it was dirty but worked.
I used to not shoot it. I did some reading and it seems that the only people that had issues were rifles with questionable chambers from companies farther to the right on the chart: tight chambers, blue extractors, overgassed, carbine buffers, semi carriers. Sooooooo.........rifles with a higher cyclic rate and weak extractors. So I bought a few boxes of different brands and stocked up b/c I didn't have any issues with any of it. Try it and keep a broken shell extractor in your your grip.
On a side note, Hornady has steel cased now.
I'm not using it in a stainless Noveske shooting out to 600 meters or yards. I'm putting a couple hundred rounds downrange inside of 100 at a pretty quick pace.
I won't run it in any of my ARs either and why when I can get Federal for about 35 cents per box more. I also reload and won't buy ammo whose cases are just scrap for reloading purposes.
Raven Armament
12-26-10, 15:32
Ammunition is a consumable. Consumers are looking for the best value which they equate with price. Consumers want perfect ammunition for the lowest price yet associate quality with price. Quality takes time, time is labor, labor costs money and those costs are passed onto the consumer by way of product pricing. Many consumers tend to purchase based on price only since they only see the short term savings.
Shooters buy Tula (Wolf, Brown Bear, Silver Bear, et al) ammunition and think they're bargain shoppers until Johnny Vodka is pissed off making $4 per hour, hasn't had a raise in 5 years, and finally doesn't give a shit about quality today and that round ends up in their $2,000 boomstick and causes a catastrophic failure. Good luck with customer support on that one. :sarcastic:
Irish10
I'm of the same cloth-reloader! :D This is the most factory ammo I have ever bought! Dang BRD! :mad: Thats where I see the extra cost go away in buying Brass cased ammo! Thousands of cases to make High quality ammo win win!:D
RogerinTPA
12-26-10, 16:16
Use the search feature. This topic has been done to death here.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=67776
https://www.m4carbine.net/archive/index.php/t-56362.html
https://www.m4carbine.net/archive/index.php/t-55563.html
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=47601
https://www.m4carbine.net/archive/index.php/t-63595.html
https://www.m4carbine.net/archive/index.php/t-63595.html
There's probably 20 pages of it if you care to look.
Use the search feature. This topic has been done to death here.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=67776
https://www.m4carbine.net/archive/index.php/t-56362.html
https://www.m4carbine.net/archive/index.php/t-55563.html
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=47601
https://www.m4carbine.net/archive/index.php/t-63595.html
https://www.m4carbine.net/archive/index.php/t-63595.html
There's probably 20 pages of it if you care to look.
The first thread is one of the most recent and one of the BEST threads here on this subject.
Boxerglocker
12-26-10, 17:55
Ammunition is a consumable. Consumers are looking for the best value which they equate with price. Consumers want perfect ammunition for the lowest price yet associate quality with price. Quality takes time, time is labor, labor costs money and those costs are passed onto the consumer by way of product pricing. Many consumers tend to purchase based on price only since they only see the short term savings.
Shooters buy Tula (Wolf, Brown Bear, Silver Bear, et al) ammunition and think they're bargain shoppers until Johnny Vodka is pissed off making $4 per hour, hasn't had a raise in 5 years, and finally doesn't give a shit about quality today and that round ends up in their $2,000 boomstick and causes a catastrophic failure. Good luck with customer support on that one. :sarcastic:
While I believe your analogy applys to varying brass cased ammo made by various upper and lower grade manufactuers. In the case of 99% of the steel cased "Russian" brands. The savings is in the materials, steel cases.... manufacturing is the same and most of it made by Tula. The economics of savings reflects such.
I don't have alot of experience with Wolf rifle ammo, but over 30K run through my Glocks in 9mm, .40 and .45 prior to my taking up reloading. Never had an issue other than it's dirty.
One of my decisions in going for a MIL SPEC 5.56 NATO chambered rifle was the fact that at $4.20 a box of 20 for Wolf. I could afford to run it, until I finally get tooled to load my own.
It runs. Summed up as "somewhat" underpowered. Summed up as "somewhat" dirty. It runs.
Try it and let us know your results.
Raven Armament
12-26-10, 18:42
While I believe your analogy applys to varying brass cased ammo made by various upper and lower grade manufactuers. In the case of 99% of the steel cased "Russian" brands. The savings is in the materials, steel cases.... manufacturing is the same and most of it made by Tula. The economics of savings reflects such.
I don't have alot of experience with Wolf rifle ammo, but over 30K run through my Glocks in 9mm, .40 and .45 prior to my taking up reloading. Never had an issue other than it's dirty.
One of my decisions in going for a MIL SPEC 5.56 NATO chambered rifle was the fact that at $4.20 a box of 20 for Wolf. I could afford to run it, until I finally get tooled to load my own.
I care too much about the quality of the ammunition fired in my weapons to shoot steel cased ammunition. If all I had available was steel cased ammunition, I'd toss it in the garbage and use my weapon as a club.
Littlelebowski
12-26-10, 18:56
I care too much about the quality of the ammunition fired in my weapons to shoot steel cased ammunition. If all I had available was steel cased ammunition, I'd toss it in the garbage and use my weapon as a club.
Why? Do you think that your weapon will explode in your hands or that Wolf will make it malfunction?
I don't get this sort of absolutism.
Raven Armament
12-26-10, 19:06
Steel cased ammunition is not quality in any respect. Neither is aluminum crap from CCI. Neither is quality and neither is good enough to come near my weapons. The only thing steel or aluminum cased ammunition has going for it is price, but I'm not going to sacrifice quality for price. Brass cased or I stay home.
Quiet-Matt
12-26-10, 19:16
Steel cased ammunition is not quality in any respect. Neither is aluminum crap from CCI. Neither is quality and neither is good enough to come near my weapons. The only thing steel or aluminum cased ammunition has going for it is price, but I'm not going to sacrifice quality for price. Brass cased or I stay home.
Well those of us who aren't a manufacturer of ammunition, like you, don't have such luxury.
Littlelebowski
12-26-10, 19:20
It may run a bit more dirty but other than that, it doesn't do shit to a good weapon. Nothing worth getting hysterical about.
RogerinTPA
12-26-10, 19:24
It runs. Summed up as "somewhat" underpowered. Summed up as "somewhat" dirty. It runs.
Try it and let us know your results.
Funny you should mention this. No one has ever explained how "underpowered" is defined. Fragmentation threshold is 200M (about 2500FPS) and in, for reliable fragmentation. At one point, I made a list of steel eastern european ammo (Wolf, Barnaul/ Brown Bear, Silver Bear), PMC, XM193, etc... the variances were anywhere from 40 - 150FPS at the extream, slower than XM193 55 grn (Aprox. 3270 from a 20" barrel). When I posted the results and ask how underpowered was defined, all I got was crickets.
Raven Armament
12-26-10, 19:38
Well those of us who aren't a manufacturer of ammunition, like you, don't have such luxury.
You can have that same luxury. Reload your own .223 ammunition for far cheaper than steel cased ammunition. Better quality and cheaper than buying loaded ammo. I just happen to have proper licensing and sell my ammo to support my family. If you roll your own, you will save money even compared to buying steel cased ammunition.
I refuse to run any steelcase ammo in my ar-15s due to a bad experience with a stag upper and wolf. ( The bolt carrier would stick and lock up my rifle ) I ONLY run quality brassed cased ammo in my current ar. HOWEVER, I only run steel cased ammo in my AK and have NEVER had an issue with Wolf, Brown Bear, or Barnaul. In fact, steel cased ammo in my ak does everything I ask of it and would never spend the extra cash to buy brass for my Ak. I also run steel cased ammo in my Glocks from time to time with no malfunctions.
Littlelebowski
12-26-10, 19:57
I'd love to reload and understand the cost benefits to me by doing so. However, reality intrudes and I'd rather pick up a case of Wolf AND spend time with my family than reload.
Quiet-Matt
12-26-10, 19:59
You can have that same luxury. Reload your own .223 ammunition for far cheaper than steel cased ammunition. Better quality and cheaper than buying loaded ammo. I just happen to have proper licensing and sell my ammo to support my family. If you roll your own, you will save money even compared to buying steel cased ammunition.
Touché, but I have no desire. Spare time is elusive as is.
It may run a bit more dirty but other than that, it doesn't do shit to a good weapon. Nothing worth getting hysterical about.
Amen to that. If I had a weapon that wouldn't run steel case, I would get rid of it ASAP. Otherwise it'd be like having a car that only runs on race gas for commuting. :sarcastic:
Funny you should mention this. No one has ever explained how "underpowered" is defined. Fragmentation threshold is 200M (about 2500FPS) and in, for reliable fragmentation. At one point, I made a list of steel eastern european ammo (Wolf, Barnaul/ Brown Bear, Silver Bear), PMC, XM193, etc... the variances were anywhere from 40 - 150FPS at the extream, slower than XM193 55 grn (Aprox. 3270 from a 20" barrel). When I posted the results and ask how underpowered was defined, all I got was crickets.
The established threshold for reliable fragmentation for mil-spec M193 is 2700 fps. When fired from a 20” barrel, with a muzzle velocity of 3270 fps, the fragmentation threshold will be reached at approximately 130 meters; not 200 meters. For a 14.5” M4 carbine the fragmentation threshold will be reached at approximately 75 meters.
Even when meeting the fragmentation threshold, for 15% of the shots, M193 isn’t going to reach its maximum cavity/fragmentation depth until approximatley 25cm of penetration (9.8”.) Since the thorax of an average American adult male has an anterior-posterior dimension of approximatley 9.5”, for 15% of the shots, M193 is basically going to sail through most of the body before fragmenting.
http://www.box.net/shared/static/9gmebfjy76.jpg
From Wound Ballistics Review.
The above figures do not apply to typical bi-metal jacketed bullets used in common (Wolf et al) steel cased ammunition; nor non-mil-spec 55 grain FMJ bullets such as the Hornady projectile for that matter. Bare ballistic gel testing conducted by B&T Ammo Labs using 55 grain Wolf bi-metal jacket ammunition fired from a 16” carbine showed that:
“The round exhibited almost no fragmentation. All fragmentation was a result of the "toothpaste" effect- some lead core was squeezed out of the base of the projectile as it was flattened. The jacket remained intact throughout.”
Wolf bi-metal jacket
http://www.box.net/shared/static/t83v3rhdr6.jpg
“Underpowered” is poor terminology for use in ballistics discussions. As you noted, there is no established definition of the term. Established, quantifiable terms such as muzzle velocity, port-pressure, fragmentation threshold etc would be better suited for such discussions.
The two different lots of Wolf 55 grain steel cased ammunition that I chronographed from a 20” Colt M16A2 barrel had muzzle velocities of 3031 fps (black box) and 3031 fps (military classic) for an average of 3020 fps. This puts the Wolf ammunition at an average of 252 fps less than XM193 fired from the same barrel (3272 fps.)
....
I'm on my second case (1000 rounds) of Tula 62gr JHP.
It's not really accurate (2.5 MOA vs 1MOA) in my 16" DPMS Carbine, but it runs, and runs, and runs... for 20 cents per squeeze. (100% function so far)
It's a bit dirtier, but I haven't had any function issues even at 400-500 rounds between cleanings, though I normally shoot 100-250 in a session.
Most of my 3-Gun match shooting is WELL inside 100yards, so MOA accuracy is not required. If I'm shooting past 100, I'll shoot better stuff, but for up-close FAST and dirty work... It's a good choice.
Jeff
Raven Armament
12-26-10, 22:14
I'd love to reload and understand the cost benefits to me by doing so. However, reality intrudes and I'd rather pick up a case of Wolf AND spend time with my family than reload.
Touché, but I have no desire. Spare time is elusive as is.
Trust me, I've got a lot of reality going on. Between my full time job, family, and my business I still have time to load ammunition for personal use outside of filling orders.
Time is there. Money is there. If you've got more money than time, buy loaded ammo. Guys make money off those kind of shooters. :laugh:
Trust me, I've got a lot of reality going on. Between my full time job, family, and my business I still have time to load ammunition for personal use outside of filling orders.
Time is there. Money is there. If you've got more money than time, buy loaded ammo. Guys make money off those kind of shooters. :laugh:
Yeah. I'll trade money for ammo to shoot during the two weeks I get to spend with my wife and kids each year. My wife, God bless her soul realizes that shooting for me is a celebration of being alive, and values any additional training I can get in during that time, and she blesses me with her presence despite not being interested in guns and shooting.
For the rest, time reloading could be time spent shooting, and if you shoot much at all, the savings of using steel cased ammo can easily pay for a new AR in a relatively short period of time.
Plus, steel-cased ammo isn't going to vaporize your carbine. At most, you'll get a few stuck rounds, malfs and possibly additional extractor wear.
Maybe it's time to ease back on the irrational drama queening....
Raven Armament
12-27-10, 00:43
Yeah. I'll trade money for ammo to shoot during the two weeks I get to spend with my wife and kids each year. My wife, God bless her soul realizes that shooting for me is a celebration of being alive, and values any additional training I can get in during that time, and she blesses me with her presence despite not being interested in guns and shooting.
So have her load ammo while you're gone.:sarcastic:
For the rest, time reloading could be time spent shooting, and if you shoot much at all, the savings of using steel cased ammo can easily pay for a new AR in a relatively short period of time.
And handloading is even cheaper than steel cased ammunition. Using pulled bullets, CCI primers, surplus military ball powder, your reloads will cost about $150-160 per 1,000 rounds. You pay $200 or so for steel cased ammo. Twenty percent less than steel ammo. Takes an hour to load 1,000 rounds.
Plus, steel-cased ammo isn't going to vaporize your carbine. At most, you'll get a few stuck rounds, malfs and possibly additional extractor wear.
Negative on all accounts.
Maybe it's time to ease back on the irrational drama queening....
Yup. Preferring to shoot quality brass cased ammunition is very much "irrational drama queening". [/quote]
Folks - my name is Brian and I am a steel case ammo user(as in, my name is Brain and I am an alcoholic). I've used Wolf/Barnule, whatever because I am a cheap-ass mofo. I routinely use it in my RR Colt M16A1 as well as an RDIAS and Ares Shrike belt fed upper. I am talking quality of $30K plus in modern $ of equipment I continue to use Wolf on them. In addition, I am also a Dillon 1050 owner and would rather reload than buy(did I mention that I am cheap?)
I have used Wolf since their inception - without issues. I was raised by big green in the mid 80s when cleaning a weapon was to be tested via a white pipe cleaner. I still adhere to this after every shooting event and although most modern firing is done via LWRC piston based uppers, with Wolf(because I am a cheapass). Infact I am about halfway though about 5K 62gr reloads(pulled bullets) with TAC Ramshot and Wolf Primers(because I am a cheapass)
Folks - do your math, get a chrono, do it right. This anti steel case shit is like being afraid of the boogie man. Grow up - it ****ing works. If you choose to use hi-test in your Lexus, so be it - that is what the manual states to use. If you buy a Jeep Wrangler - regular gas please - that is what the straight six was made for. BTW - your weapon was made by the lowest bidder and everyone strives still to meet Colt compatibility...get a clue.
Molon, do you know where a guy could get a look at those tests on the Wolf ammo?
Littlelebowski
12-27-10, 06:24
RavenArmament, why don't you show us the extractor wear and other damage done to weapons by steel cased ammo?
I have a 5 month old kid and work full time. I would rather take the kid from my wife when I get home so that I can spend time with the kid and my wife can have a break than reload ammo.
I have fired over 10,000 rds of Wolf through a BCM Middie and a Noveske Middie.
I have experienced 3 stuck cases in the BCM. No ammo related malfunctions in the Noveske.
I have gone 5,000rds in the Noveske without cleaning (all I do is add more oil). No problems what so ever. Nor is there any damage to the weapon.
Is it dirty? Yes it is. I could care less though. It has yet to impede function.
Accuracte? I could expect to get 3MOA out of the Noveske. It out shoots me, so thats fine for my purposes with it.
PJ
IMHO this needs locked. There is a better, older, ongoing thread for all the bullshit. If we're going to have "official" nutcase threads like the DPMS/Oly thread we might as well have one for this (the other one) and for the bolt-tail-scraping-dumbasses ;) (pick whichever one you like).
I think the forum software has a "merge" feature for staff and mods, why not just merge this one into the other one?
FWIW reloading is a false economy when you factor in labor. Period. and you have to include the labor of gathering the brass, or factor in buying the brass. There is always something better I can be doing with my time.
Molon, do you know where a guy could get a look at those tests on the Wolf ammo?
"The Wolf of Truth"
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=505915
Raven Armament
12-27-10, 09:23
RavenArmament, why don't you show us the extractor wear and other damage done to weapons by steel cased ammo?
I never claimed steel case ammunition caused excessive extractor wear. I don't have pictures of the local guys who ruined guns due to steel cased ammo. The local gun shop doesn't sell it anymore because of that.
FWIW reloading is a false economy when you factor in labor. Period. and you have to include the labor of gathering the brass, or factor in buying the brass. There is always something better I can be doing with my time.
Factor labor? You aren't getting paid to reload, why in the world would you factor your time? Do you factor you time when you buy ammunition? I've never understood the time argument.
If you don't understand that your time is worth money then I don't know how to explain it to you. I know what my time is worth and it is worth more than the "savings" to be found in reloading.
Raven Armament
12-27-10, 09:40
My time is only worth money when I'm loading ammunition to sell for profit. My time is not worth money when I'm loading ammunition for personal use. Do you factor time in every single hobby you have? Sounds like that takes away the enjoyment of the hobby.
Littlelebowski
12-27-10, 09:43
I work, then I work out, relax, and spend time with my family. My family time and free time is worth money to me. So is shooting at the range over reloading. I don't think I can explain it in a more simple fashion.
reloading is not "enjoyment".
Raven Armament
12-27-10, 10:09
I work, then I work out, relax, and spend time with my family. My family time and free time is worth money to me. So is shooting at the range over reloading. I don't think I can explain it in a more simple fashion.
Kid goes to school, I have a few hours to myself, so I load ammo. Bus takes him to my inlaws' house and I go to my full time job. Come home and go to bed. Weekends I don't do business stuff and hang out with my family. To each their own.
reloading is not "enjoyment".
I like reloading. I like doing things myself. I work on my own vehicles, load my own ammo, cast my own bullets, swage my own jacketed bullets, brew my own beer, I make my own biodiesel, repair things around the house that need repairing. I need some lumber I go to my inlaws' farm, fell a few trees, get the sawmill running, make some boards, plane them. I made all the trim in my house from trees I cut at the farm. Those things I enjoy doing and I like the satisfaction of doing things myself rather than relying on someone else to cut my meat for me. People these days would rather pay to have something done than do it themselves. Self sufficiency isn't what it used to be.
Littlelebowski
12-27-10, 10:12
Reloading is not my own personal measure of self sufficiency. Is it yours?
Oh god, now we're pontificating about the superiority of people that have nothing better to do than sit in their basement and crank the handle? not to mention waste range time pecking around like a drunken hen rather than, you know, shoot?
Uncle. you win. your life is more boring than mine, and your time is worth less. Congrats! :sarcastic:
Buying cheap factory made ammunition also helps to keep your home environment cleaner relative to reloading. This is particularly relevant if you have babies or young children as well as pets in the home.
Raven Armament
12-27-10, 10:46
Reloading is not my own personal measure of self sufficiency. Is it yours?
Not the sole measure, but part of it.
Oh god, now we're pontificating about the superiority of people that have nothing better to do than sit in their basement and crank the handle? not to mention waste range time pecking around like a drunken hen rather than, you know, shoot?
Uncle. you win. your life is more boring than mine, and your time is worth less. Congrats! :sarcastic:
No I don't load in the basement. Brass is collected after shooting all of the ammo. Shoot, pick up the brass, then reload it.
Buying cheap factory made ammunition also helps to keep your home environment cleaner relative to reloading. This is particularly relevant if you have babies or young children as well as pets in the home.
The chemicals under your sink are more harmful to your family and pets than handloading components.
But that's fine. I think we've made our points. I will continue to save money handloading my own ammunition. You can save money by buying steel cased ammunition.
"The chemicals under your sink are more harmful to your family and pets than handloading components". That statement is off topic and does not address contaminating your home with lead. If you have children or pets at home then do them a favor and educate yourself. Google "lead exposure and children". You will also do yourself a favor if you educate yourself on the monetary value of time.
Raven Armament
12-27-10, 12:53
"The chemicals under your sink are more harmful to your family and pets than handloading components". That statement is off topic and does not address contaminating your home with lead. If you have children or pets at home then do them a favor and educate yourself. Google "lead exposure and children".
Yep, well aware of facts surrounding lead exposure. Lead has to be ingested orally, through the skin directly, or vaporized and inhaled in order be a danger. Lead alloy bullets sitting at room temperature will not vaporize and there is no danger unless eaten or absorbed through the skin through direct contact. And no, temperatures in casting bullets are not hot enough to vaporize lead. Yes I'm educated about the hazards of lead.
You will also do yourself a favor if you educate yourself on the monetary value of time.
Only circumstance when money and time are considered is when I'm loading ammunition for other people. It's called profit. When I load ammunition for my personal use, it's a hobby. It's called enjoyment.
I would love to reload, but most of the time I shoot out in the woods and do not stay in the same spot so it would be a pain in the ass to pick up all the brass. I very rarely shoot at a "range," but I could see how it would be easy to collect all of your spent brass if you fired in stationary positions found in a range.
rob s
So how much money are you lossing sitting and typing for this forum? :rolleyes: I mean if your time is always calculated by money!
Reloading doesn't cost money when you enjoy what your doing! So if your a dirt bike rider you should be getting paid for having fun? Do you pay yourself when you go fishing with your kid, grand kid?:eek:
Littlelebowski
12-27-10, 16:05
rob s
So how much money are you lossing sitting and typing for this forum? :rolleyes: I mean if your time is always calculated by money!
Reloading doesn't cost money when you enjoy what your doing! So if your a dirt bike rider you should be getting paid for have fun? Do you pay yourself when you go fishing with your kid, grand kid?:eek:
It's obviously very easy to post on this forum throughout the course of a work day spent in front of a computer..... I know you're trying to set rob up as setting time aside at home to only post on forums but unfortunately, reality is knocking at the door.
reloading is not "enjoyment".
Depends on who you are. I enjoy it. Some people find satisfaction in "creation".
To each his own. I certainly won't try to convince you or anyone else that reloading is for you. It may or may not be.
RogerinTPA
12-27-10, 20:27
The established threshold for reliable fragmentation for mil-spec M193 is 2700 fps. When fired from a 20” barrel, with a muzzle velocity of 3270 fps, the fragmentation threshold will be reached at approximately 130 meters; not 200 meters. For a 14.5” M4 carbine the fragmentation threshold will be reached at approximately 75 meters.
Good info. I hadn't realized that the actual threshold was less (130M from a 20" Barrel and 75M for a 14.5"). I read 200M from different sources several years ago (other independent studies and not scientific) and from hearsay while in the military. Thanks for provided more quantifiable info to the contrary.
The above figures do not apply to typical bi-metal jacketed bullets used in common (Wolf et al) steel cased ammunition; nor non-mil-spec 55 grain FMJ bullets such as the Hornady projectile for that matter. Bare ballistic gel testing conducted by B&T Ammo Labs using 55 grain Wolf bi-metal jacket ammunition fired from a 16” carbine showed that:
“The round exhibited almost no fragmentation. All fragmentation was a result of the "toothpaste" effect- some lead core was squeezed out of the base of the projectile as it was flattened. The jacket remained intact throughout.”
My intent was to determine what the term Underpowered" meant by those who use it. I know that Wolf and other Bimetal FMJ projectiles rarely, if ever fragment. A poor illustration on my part. Most have used the term in describing various malfunctions while using this ammo, without any explanation, just the word. The objective was to determine how a round of ammo was defined as such.
“Underpowered” is poor terminology for use in ballistics discussions. As you noted, there is no established definition of the term. Established, quantifiable terms such as muzzle velocity, port-pressure, fragmentation threshold etc would be better suited for such discussions.
Agreed.
I don't shoot steel cases because I like brass to reload.
That statement is off topic
The part I find funny is a guy calling a guy out as being off topic in the off topic thread drift.
Anyway...
Molon, thanks for the info. I wish the link had pics as the other tests show, but the information is good none the less.
If stuck using Wolf or other ball ammo for defense it would be nice to know what the ammo does.
Theoretically I'm OK with the bullet not fragmenting (although that is obviously to be much preferred) if it consistently has an early yaw. The standard performance of the 5.45 bullet seems to work fine for anti-personnel use if that is what one has to work with.
I start by qualifing my following remarks by saying I don't shoot steel cased ammo. That being said why do you shoot it? I mean other then saving money? From what I've read here and on other sites it has some very serious quality issues! Case in point see attached post on another site: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=518301:eek:
I for one am more then willing to spend a few extra dollars for quality training ammo and this is why I will stick with using XM193 for such. I just got through inspecting over 1900 rounds and found ZERO defects like the one in above thread! Never had a dud round, very consistant velocities and good accuracy with XM193. And the big plus it's American ammo! :)
I'll raise your 1900 rounds of xm193 with 20k of steelies with similar results....and *thousands* of dollars in savings.
As others have said, this thread has been preceeded by numerous others with more basis than a kneejerk 'I heard it on TOS' statement....
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