View Full Version : Dan Wesson 1911 pistols
For those of you with Dan Wesson 1911 pistols, I would like to get your opinion on them.
I would like to get a 1911 with an aluminum officers frame and a commander slide. I'm thinking about a Dan Wesson CCO which are going for $1350 to $1500. I could get a lightly used pre-series II Kimber Compact for around $700. Do you think the Dan Wesson is worth the money over the Kimber?
This would be a carry pistol so I could justify spending the money. I'm just not sure how much more pistol I would be getting for double the money.
I had a CBOB a couple of years ago. It was the stainless model. It has since been taken out of production. I loved the gun, but had a family emergency and needed the money. Of all the guns I have ever had that is the only one that I truly regret selling. To my knowledge they come with very little to no MIM parts. Only had about 500 rounds thru it, but it went bang every time. No issues at all. The fit and finish was awesome. The gun just felt right. Comparing it to a Kimber is like comparing apples to oranges in my opinion and its just that. My opinion. Good luck.
One of my buddies has a current production Dan Wesson 1911.
He is as happy with his as I am with my new Colt Rail Gun. When I get done breaking the Rail Gun in it will become my daily carry. So far, 750 rounds of various ammunition, no malfunctions other than the slide failing to lock back after the last round has been fired. That is most likely a magazine issue, and I have ordered new magazine springs to hopefully fix the problem.
As far as I know he has not had any issues with his, but hasn't, to my knowledge, hit the 500 round mark yet. When he does he will then test it with his various carry loads. He can have any 1911 he desires, within reason, and the fact that he chose a Dan Wesson says volumes. He was planning on a Colt Combat Commander when he went with the Dan Wesson. Frankly that shocked me, as he used a Colt Combat Commander in his first gunfight and I know that model holds a very dear and special place in his heart.
As for Kimber, my Mommy raised me that if I couldn't say something nice about them, to not say anything at all. Kimber makes some very practical and functional appearing 1911's, and truth be told I have considered them a time or two. What always holds me back is the number of problems I have seen people I am well acquainted with have with them. That has always put me in the Springfield camp until my recent pony purchase. I may get a Kimber SIS from a buddy, as I know his gun is reliable, and how he treats it.
Biker
To me, it is not worth it. The Kimber is a very good pistol. If it will do what you want, then that is the way I would go. At the same time, I tend to be an impulse buyer, at times, and I usually will buy what I want, regardless of what forums or reviews say. Ultimately, do you want the DW instead of the Kimber, because if you do, a knot will form in your stomach because you did not buy it. If it is merely a "get the job done" pistol, then save yourself the extra $700. jmho.
I carry a V-Bob and like it very much. They are production guns but they don't produce that many. No MIM. 10' models and later have forged slides.
Ed Brown recently introduced the Kobra Karry LW. Aluminum framed Commander slide, full size grip w/ bobtail. It's about twice the price of the DW.
I know there are many happy Kimber owners. I'm sure they'll give their $.02 as I did. I have no direct experience with Kimber so I can not say anything negative about them.
eternal24k
12-27-10, 09:43
I have been a huge fan of DWs and often referred to them as the best 1911 for the money. Now I bought my Valor for $1190, so with their new price increase it is not often seen as such a steal, but I am confident in their reasoning and all of their changes look like they are for the better (Melonite type finish instead of ceramic, Heinie ledge sights). My DWs are tack drivers, and I hope to pick up another Valor some day soon.
If you HAVE to have a CCO size 1911 I would look at a Les Baer Stinger. You can find one for very close to the price of the DW and IMHO it is a much higher quality pistol. I would also recommend against LW frames as they have shown to be less durable with prolonged heavy use.
IMHO Dan Wesson destroyed the market that they had at one point in time. They used to build a fine 1911 for under a grand. Then they raised all their prices and are now stuck competing with companies that build a better 1911 for close to the same money.
Why a CCO? I have gone to almost all 5" model 1911's and have found that with a good holster and belt that they are every bit as comfortable for carry as their smaller counterparts.
If you want a smaller size carry pistol buy a G19 and call it a day. If you want a 1911 buy one the way God designed them.
This guy knows a thing or two about 1911's.
http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid1155316168?bctid=33510888001
I think by the time you wore out an aluminium frame you'd have spent at least 3-5x on ammo as the gun would cost. Aluminum framed 1911 are meant for carry use as they weigh approx. 8oz. less than a steel framed version. They are purpose built and do it very well. If it's a range gun there are much better options available.
Who builds better 1911s than DW for about the same money and what makes them better? Not trying to be confrontational I'm truly curious. Thanks.
I think by the time you wore out an aluminium frame you'd have spent at least 3-5x on ammo as the gun would cost. Aluminum framed 1911 are meant for carry use as they weigh approx. 8oz. less than a steel framed version. They are purpose built and do it very well. If it's a range gun there are much better options available.
Who builds better 1911s than DW for about the same money and what makes them better? Not trying to be confrontational I'm truly curious. Thanks.
If you read my post you will see that I said with "prolonged heavy use" which is what any gun I carry gets. I don't consider any gun I carry a range gun. When you say they are "purpose built and do it very well"... I would expect them to be able to stand up to the training that one should be doing with their carry gun, they have a history of not holding up like a steel frame 1911 does.
Most members here will spend 3-5 times the cost of the pistol in ammo every year not in a lifetime... If you simply do the math on 5-10k rounds a year that cost will easily surpass the cost of the pistol each and every year. Why not choose a platform that has proven its ability to withstand that type of use?
This holds true on almost any platform both pistol or rifle.
If you look around you can buy lightly used Les Baers or Wilsons for 1500-2kish and they ARE better pistols than a DW. They use superior parts and the amount of hand fitting that goes into them is far greater than a production line DW pistol. You could also find a used Springfield Pro for close to the same money if you look around and are diligent. I think you are better off in the long run with the above 1911's for not much more money. In the end you will have a better 1911 and a better investment.
When DW raised their prices to 1300-1700+ I think they killed the market that they had established for themselves. They were a great value at sub 1k, at todays prices I don't see the value in their products.
I've had 4 of the DW 1911s: two CBOBs (a .45 & a 10mm); a 10mm PM7; and a .40 SS Custom. All have been great performers and great values (old prices). However, I feel somewhat like the above poster who said that DW has lost its price "niche" with the increases. And I would hesitate to recommend them over a low end Les Baer for close to the same money.
There's a lot of good info. at 1911forum.com to help with your decision. I have a DW CBOB and PM7. The CBOB has just over 1,000 rounds and the PM7 has 2,000 rounds. Both guns are very accurate and reliable. I also have a Baer Custom Carry with 2,800 rounds thru it. It's more accurate and very reliable. If price is similar, I'd buy the Baer. I've been very pleased with all 3.
I too bought my CBOB at the old price. Around $1000. Never thought of it before, but the Les baer would be a better gun for the money now that prices have shot up. I always overlook them because they are not sold at any of the shops in my area.
My impression.
I am relatively new to the 1911 platform. I purchased my first 1911, a 2010 DW Valor while waiting for an Ed Brown I had on order. Well I guess you could argue I bought the Brown first but I got the DW first. The guys I showed the Valor to who were experienced 1911 guys were impressed with the quality.
I ran into trouble when I started using the Valor. First the sights were off (POI well above POA). The slide went back to DW and they replaced the front sight. Now my POI was too low. Back again and the gun was dead nuts on.
Now when I took the gun to a class and was doing more than sighting it in, more trouble developed. To make a long story short I learned a lot about 1911's real fast and determined that the frame's feed ramp was improperly cut.
The gun did not have the proper gap (no gap existed) between the top of the feed ramp and the barrel. I determined that the space between the VIS and the top of the ramp was too short, resulting in the lack of the required gap. With the barrel lugs against the VIS the barrel’s throat was almost overlapping the feed ramp. During the learning process the barrel was sent to DW to be rethroated but that was a waist of time.
After trying the rethroated barrel with crappy results there was another conversation with DW customer service. Armed with measurements I made and knowledge I attained during the process I convinced their rep that the gun needed to be replaced.
Interestingly I have owned and do own quite a few guns. Never before have I had a “defective Gun” that had to be replaced. I guess it can happen. Obviously anything you are going to stake your life on needs to be thoroughly tested.
In the end I promptly received a replacement Valor that has been perfect in every way. The head of Dan Wesson's shop told me that he would personally make sure that I was receiving a working gun with the sights dead on.
In the end I was satisfied with the dealings I had with Keith at Dan Wesson. They were always very accommodating and helpful. Yes, I wish it had worked the first time right out of the box but in the end I walked away knowing a whole lot about the 1911.
There is one additional comment I would like to make. I initially was worried that the folks at DW would think I was just the typical yahoo complaining about their sights being off because they can't hit shit. I sent them a target with my slide when they replaced the sights each time. My initial conversation with Keith at DW perturbed me. When I told him how much the gun was off at 25 yards he said the gun was not meant to be used at that distance. WTFO! I regularly use it at 50 yards and beyond.
Finally in comparison to my new Ed Brown I can find no appreciable difference in any respect. Both the new Valor and the Ed Brown have been flawless and I have at least 5000 rounds through each.
My rational for buying the Valor was a backup for the Ed Brown. The Valor was configured darn near exactly the way I wanted. All I did to it was install a Ed Brown arched mainspring housing and a 10-8 short trigger.
My $.02.
Buy a Colt, send it to a smith for a reliability package and new sights. If you shop around smiths (and gunshops for the pistol) it'll probably cost you $1500-$2000 (or less) depending on who you have do the work and what all you have done to it.
Granted, you won't have immediate gratification, but you'll end up with a better product.
ETA: Avoid aluminum frames.
MarshallDodge
12-29-10, 23:58
The new Valor based Dan Wessons are nicer than anything Kimber has ever made. Lots of high quality parts go into the builds.
My experience with some older Dan Wesson pistols has been good but not excellent. My first CBOB pulled out a grip bushing and the barrel bushing started wearing early. My wife's CBOB hammer spur cracked which was a known issue for that year. DW took care of all the issues on their dime and her gun runs like a champ.
I like d90king's suggestion for a used Baer. They are very well built and reliable.
Thanks for the replies. I am going to look around for a used Baer.
I guarantee you will be happy with a Dan Wesson CCO. Most people that say the new Dan Wesson's aren't worth the money haven't spent any time with one.
This was posted recently on the 1911 forums by Dave Severns. He's a gunsmith specializing in 1911s. He also sells 1911s. Both Dan Wessons and Les Baers among others. I have never owned or shot a Les Baer and I do own a Dan Wesson. I guess I'm biased but trying not to be. This is just food for thought. HTH.
To make some blanket, generalistic observations based upon a bunch of working on and a ton of testing both brands:
. Baer uses good, carbon steel for their slide, frame, and small parts. You want a carbon steel gun, it's a no-brainer.
. Baer SS slide and frame guns are "OK" in comparison, sometimes exhibiting a soft, improperly heat-treated ss small part here and there.
. New DW SS gun slide and frame steel is also forged, and of good quality. Early guns used SS that was a few points too soft for my personal taste.
. DW black guns exhibit a blackening treatment that is light years beyond the frail bluing used by Baer.
. Baers are generally a wee bit more accurate, with a tighter barrel fit
. DWs are generally better finished and more cosmetically attractive. Now, this particular aspect is very subjective. Many would say that the new DW is more "pretty", while the Baer is more "raw and powerful" looking, if you will. Kind of like a Ferrari vs a Big Block Corvette. I personally fall unto this camp, and really like that aspect of the Baer guns.
. New, 2010/2011 DWs use clearly superior small parts, period end of story.
. New DWs typically exhibit clearly superior trigger pull quality and ignition parts.
. Both guns offer reasonable warranty service, with that honored by DW often being a bit more flexible.
Link to post: http://forums.1911forum.com/showpost.php?p=2958648&postcount=66
Link to thread. It was a similar thread to this posted in the DW sub forum: http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=293197
This was posted recently on the 1911 forums by Dave Severns. He's a gunsmith specializing in 1911s. He also sells 1911s. Both Dan Wessons and Les Baers among others. I have never owned or shot a Les Baer and I do own a Dan Wesson. I guess I'm biased but trying not to be. This is just food for thought. HTH.
Link to post: http://forums.1911forum.com/showpost.php?p=2958648&postcount=66
Link to thread. It was a similar thread to this posted in the DW sub forum: http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=293197
You didn't just post a Dan Wesson dealer as validation for Dan Wesson pistols did you? Please stop. You have read in this thread that OWNERS (people who actually shoot them) of both would pick a Baer every time if the price was close and you post this guy to validate your bias to DW? Come on. That guy is selling guns and its why he maid his "chart" basically equal so he could say "cant go wrong with either" ...:rolleyes: This guys opinion means nothing.
The funniest part about it is I don't think a single bad thing has been said about DW other than their prices are now to high and you still feel the need to make your self feel better. If you want to believe that your DW is as good or better than a Baer, drive on and enjoy, but don't try and make us believe what you want to believe.
S&W has a cco sized al. frame out.
You didn't just post a Dan Wesson dealer as validation for Dan Wesson pistols did you? Please stop. You have read in this thread that OWNERS (people who actually shoot them) of both would pick a Baer every time if the price was close and you post this guy to validate your bias to DW? Come on. That guy is selling guns and its why he maid his "chart" basically equal so he could say "cant go wrong with either" ...:rolleyes: This guys opinion means nothing.
The funniest part about it is I don't think a single bad thing has been said about DW other than their prices are now to high and you still feel the need to make your self feel better. If you want to believe that your DW is as good or better than a Baer, drive on and enjoy, but don't try and make us believe what you want to believe.
No, I posted it because he's a gunsmith with intricate knowledge of BOTH guns. Yes he's a DW dealer. He's also a LB dealer. He did not state that either manufacturer or gun was better than one or the other. He simply posted his opinion on a basic breakdown of both guns. He's also respected by many over on the 1911 forum as a knowledgable 'smith who's opinion should at the very least be taken into consideration. I posted it so that the OP could read another thread on a forum dedicated to the 1911 platform with posts form owners of BOTH guns. If you read the entire thread I linked, many as such here, stated their preference to the LB over the DW. No where do I state that DW is better and to buy it over the LB. I've posted here because the OP asked questions in regards to DW. The OP didn't ask about LB in his original post. You brought that to this thread and my links are to another thread on the same subject this thread has moved into to.
For those of you with Dan Wesson 1911 pistols, I would like to get your opinion on them.
I own one and can give personal experience. I've stated that I own a DW and like it very much and have had good results. I also state for the purpose of honesty that I MAY be biased.
I never stated that DW makes a better gun than LB or the opposite. I don't need to make myself feel better as I really don't know which is better since I haven't owned or used a LB. It seems you need to make yourself feel better as you're the one that has decided to attack every post I make in regards to DW. Posts that don't contradict anything you or anyone else has stated. Posts that contain information in regards to DW as that is the only brand I'm familiar with. Do you own both? Have you used both? If so, is the DW a 2010 production version? But I guess you have decided which is better and anyone who thinks differently or wants to discuss another brand is just wrong.:rolleyes:
So if you want to believe that your Baer is as good or better than any other 1911, drive on and enjoy, but don't try and make us believe what you want to believe.
Owned several 1911's... still own my Dan Wesson V-bob. Has been perfect for me and I use it as a winter carry gun. It is less tight then certain custom guns that I have used, but I dont really care. It goes bang every time and typically hits what I aim at. So, I guess you could say I'm a satisfied customer.
My dan wesson expirence is that they are like race cars- they are finiky, need premium fuel, and a tight maint schedule. If you can do that for them, then look out because they are sweet shooters.
I have a DW CBOB, and it is my primary carry gun, but it is also the pickiest 1911 I own. It is the first to not like a magazine or hickup on a reloaded round of ammunition that isn't just so (been fighting that battle awhile). If I feed it what it likes and keep it cleaned and lubed- it runs great (but I try to do that for all my guns anyway). If you want a 1911 that you can treat like a glock, DW is not for you IMO.
The difference between DW and other production guns IMO, is that where others error on the side of being too loose...DW errors on the side of being to tight. I also agree they used to be a great value (like when I bought mine) but now they kind of priced themselves out of their niche. For what they want now, you can buy semi-customs that are fitted to the same or tighter standards with greater attention to detail. Les Baer is a name that comes to mind.
http://jaydoc1.smugmug.com/Firerms/Firearms/IMG0485/701284157_sRNdN-L.jpg
Based on this picture of my own CCO, you might be able to guess at what I'm about to say.
Get a DW CCO and you won't be disappointed. I was shooting mine this morning and smiling the whole time.
Get a Les Baer and you won't be disappointed. Get an Ed Brown and you won't be disappointed.
Any of them are fantastic guns. Firearms instill more brand loyalty and bigotry than just about anything else, it seems.
Here's the thing. If you want a Corvette, don't go drive a Ferrari first. Of course the opposite doesn't hold true, if you can get a Ferrari then drive all the Vettes you want, it won't change your mind about the Ferrari.
1911s come in all flavors in a CCO package. How much do you want to spend? Why not a T3 from Nighthawk? Why not a Wilson CQB Compact? The sky's the limit (if your wallet is the sky, that is).
My point is that really, once you pass a certain price point then you really are down to which gun causes a pleasant emotional response in you when you see it. Because most of them at those price points and higher are going to be damn nice reliable weapons. If a Dan Wesson CCO does it for you, then get one. I promise you'll be happy. I love mine but I guarantee I won't shoot a Wilson or Nighthawk because then I might love it just a little less.
And I'm going to ruffle some feathers here but it drives me nuts when people say, "Get a Colt, throw a reliability package and some other parts on it." If you are buying something you think you are immediately going to have to fix, well, I think I'll look elsewhere(I own one of those Colts, BTW. It's had TWO Wilson reliability packages now and is in bad need of a third apparently). Yes all 1911s, even expensive custom ones, may need tuned, but to buy a Colt planning on tuning it? C'mon. How many people do you hear say, "Buy a 6920 and throw another $400 into it and it'll be better than most other ARs"?
My CCO-owning two cents.
p.s. Get the CCO
p.s.s. I do agree with multiple above posters. DW has potentially priced itself out of the niche it built for itself. While I might think it's as good as a Les Baer for the same money as a Les Baer...well we all know what "as good as" is worth around here. Also, it is built quite tightly. Now so are Ed Browns. Tight doesn't necessarily mean unreliable but I will agree that it does take some TLC when stripping and cleaning. It shoots everything for me, however.
http://jaydoc1.smugmug.com/Firerms/Firearms/IMG0485/701284157_sRNdN-L.jpg
Based on this picture of my own CCO, you might be able to guess at what I'm about to say.
Get a DW CCO and you won't be disappointed. I was shooting mine this morning and smiling the whole time.
Get a Les Baer and you won't be disappointed. Get an Ed Brown and you won't be disappointed.
Any of them are fantastic guns. Firearms instill more brand loyalty and bigotry than just about anything else, it seems.
Here's the thing. If you want a Corvette, don't go drive a Ferrari first. Of course the opposite doesn't hold true, if you can get a Ferrari then drive all the Vettes you want, it won't change your mind about the Ferrari.
1911s come in all flavors in a CCO package. How much do you want to spend? Why not a T3 from Nighthawk? Why not a Wilson CQB Compact? The sky's the limit (if your wallet is the sky, that is).
My point is that really, once you pass a certain price point then you really are down to which gun causes a pleasant emotional response in you when you see it. Because most of them at those price points and higher are going to be damn nice reliable weapons. If a Dan Wesson CCO does it for you, then get one. I promise you'll be happy. I love mine but I guarantee I won't shoot a Wilson or Nighthawk because then I might love it just a little less.
And I'm going to ruffle some feathers here but it drives me nuts when people say, "Get a Colt, throw a reliability package and some other parts on it." If you are buying something you think you are immediately going to have to fix, well, I think I'll look elsewhere(I own one of those Colts, BTW. It's had TWO Wilson reliability packages now and is in bad need of a third apparently). Yes all 1911s, even expensive custom ones, may need tuned, but to buy a Colt planning on tuning it? C'mon. How many people do you hear say, "Buy a 6920 and throw another $400 into it and it'll be better than most other ARs"?
My CCO-owning two cents.
p.s. Get the CCO
p.s.s. I do agree with multiple above posters. DW has potentially priced itself out of the niche it built for itself. While I might think it's as good as a Les Baer for the same money as a Les Baer...well we all know what "as good as" is worth around here. Also, it is built quite tightly. Now so are Ed Browns. Tight doesn't necessarily mean unreliable but I will agree that it does take some TLC when stripping and cleaning. It shoots everything for me, however.
That's one of the most intelligent and well stated posts I've read in a long time. Once you are north of the $1200 mark, you really have to shoot 1911's a lot to notice and appreciate the difference. There IS a difference, but it may or may not be value added for you.
Les Baer is the king of tight though. They have a reputation for being a little tigher than everybody else and staying that way (not loosening up over time). I have a friend who was getting a quote on having one built and really talking details with CS over there. He said that they said- if they build the pistols any tighter, it wouldn't work.
MarshallDodge
01-05-11, 22:16
This was posted recently on the 1911 forums by Dave Severns....
I think Dave is a genuine guy but I lost some respect for him when he closed down my thread questioning the quality of some of Dan Wesson's parts. After having three parts failures with two guns I think my concern was legitimate. Now he is saying that a DW can hold it's own against a Baer? :sarcastic:
He also focuses more on accuracy than reliability which is the opposite of what you really need in a carry pistol. As an owner of both brands I think I know and understand the differences- DW makes a good product, enough that I would trust the latest offering with my life but not enough to pay more for it.
When Dan Wesson has the track record of Les Baer then they can charge the higher prices but until then I think the only thing they have going for them is the black cerakote over stainless. An Ionbonded Baer would be the ticket. :cool:
^^ agreed. Dave has worked on my DW, but DW has kind of turned into a cult following over there. DW owners used to be kind of an elite group over there who had intelligent conversations, now that word is out about DW that sub-forum has gone the way of glock talk. God forbid you say anything other than DW is awesome and swear your allegence to COTEP (what a crock that is...they even sell membership cards).
eternal24k
01-06-11, 07:00
When Dan Wesson has the track record of Les Baer then they can charge the higher prices but until then I think the only thing they have going for them is the black cerakote over stainless. An Ionbonded Baer would be the ticket. :cool:
Just as an FYI, the new DW "Duty Coat" is a melonite type finish rather than the old ceramic/cerakote.
MarshallDodge
01-06-11, 10:05
Just as an FYI, the new DW "Duty Coat" is a melonite type finish rather than the old ceramic/cerakote.
That is good to know.
Just a few quick thoughts.
The new Dan Wesson's Valor models have improved small parts, forged frames, better checkering, undercut trigger guard, improved sights and a better finish(the new Ionbond type finish, on some models) than older Dan Wesson models. And many would say better fit and finish as well. So to compare an older DW to a Les Baer and say that the newer Dan Wesson models aren't worth the price doesn't make any sense really as they aren't one and the same.
Saying a used Les Baer, Ed Brown, etc. costs the same as a new Valor is kind of a silly argument...I could just reply and say to go find a user Valor because it will cost the same as a high end Kimber.
Speaking of price, a stainless Valor can be found new for under $1400. They really aren't priced the same as a Les Baer. If your talking about the black finished ones then its going to be close to the Baer...but then you are comparing a gun with a $300 Ionbond type finish to a traditional blue finish. Refinish the Baer in Ionbond and then compare prices again.
I'm not trying to imply that Dan Wesson's Valor models are just as good or better than a Baer but they are comparable in terms of quality of parts used at least if not fit and finish as well(Haven't had close up time with a Baer so its not my place to make blanket statements about which is "better" in that regard.) I would say that you could probably trust the Baer name more than Dan Wesson but that also doesn't mean that a Valor won't run just as well as a Baer.
To me, it is not worth it. The Kimber is a very good pistol. If it will do what you want, then that is the way I would go. At the same time, I tend to be an impulse buyer, at times, and I usually will buy what I want, regardless of what forums or reviews say. Ultimately, do you want the DW instead of the Kimber, because if you do, a knot will form in your stomach because you did not buy it. If it is merely a "get the job done" pistol, then save yourself the extra $700. jmho.
Agreed. I go with the Kimber.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Have 3 Dan Wessons 2 Valors .. 09 and 2010
1 Heritage 2010
They are well made production pistols that have been reliable so far.
The Valors at 25 yards can more than hold there own with most semi custom 1911's.
I think the SS models are a good deal and can be found for a decent price.
I only carry Gov. size 1911's so am the wrong person to ask about smaller pistols.
Back when I bought my CBOB in 09 I came to the conclusion that it was the best production 1911 I would be able to get for the price range. Of course that's just my humble opinion. The fit and finish are great as well as it shoots flawlessly. However once they bumped price in '10 I was a little bummed as I was looking into grabbing a Valor or Vbob. Granted if when I do purchase another 1911 DW will still be high on my list.
As for Dave, I frequently visit and am a member of that forum and he is a stand up guy, as well as an extremely knowledgeable guy on the 1911 platform.
JB,
I told you earlier that I have DW and LB handguns and like them both. I also agree with Thursday's assessment of Dave. I believe there is a thread on the 1911forum.com Dan Wesson forum titled 2010 CCO shootout that has a lot of good info. There is also a Les Baer forum on the same site with good info. Good luck with your choice. I think you be fine with either one.
Eric
When DW raised their prices to 1300-1700+ I think they killed the market that they had established for themselves. They were a great value at sub 1k, at todays prices I don't see the value in their products.
I've talked about my CBOB enough times, that I feel kind of bad mentioning it.
If I had to do it all over again. I'd go with a gun with a finish, the black melonite looks good.
To be 1000% honest with you, my CBOB is nice, but to tell you the truth.
I've had a broken hammer. The grip safety was loose (lots of side to side movement) and the spring wasn't tensioned when I got it (I adjusted it, after an email with Dan Wesson, no big deal), I was new to 1911's and honestly, detail stripping it was very intimidating and frustrating, but I got everything worked out. I feel like that was a little lack luster. I adjusted the spring, the grip safety felt much better.
I was worried it'd turn into something like this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqGL_5AI4Yo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqGL_5AI4Yo)
Never had such experience.
There was a generous amount of machining where the grip safety goes, so it has a lot of movement compared to my Father's CBOB.
I have a lot of vertical movement in my trigger, my Father's doesn't.
I broke a portion of the spurred hammer on mine. Mailed it to DW, they took care of it.
I carry it, and I mean carry it, part of the reason I'd recommend that finish is it's really left a sour taste in my mouth with rust, but, that happens with any firearm, just to different degrees, it's not that bad this time of year, but, it still happens.
The checkering in the top portion was buffed off a little bit, and then bead blasted, I spoke with DW about it, they offered to machine it off and re-finish it, I said some bad checkering was better than no checkering and decided to keep it. Saw something similar on the second CBOB, but not nearly as exacerbated.
I liked the gun, I really loved it when I first bought it.
I almost suspect I got a lemon.
I posted a thread about these concerns over on the 1911forums. Got chewed out, saying I wanted to mod the gun, needless to say, the hammer that I was worried about or wanted to put super cool mod flame jobs on? Part of it hit the ceiling while dry firing it with snap caps a week after I posted that thread.
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=274674
It's a good read, but, that's photographs of every issue I've mentioned. (I'm not going to photograph rust, unless you want me to... I need to clean it tonight)
That and needing to replace magazine springs, I'm kind of coming to the conclusion that the 1911 should only be used with 7 round magazines. Guys are replacing their 8 round magazine springs, some recommending every 6-8 months.
I won't even use my Chip McCormick 10-rounder power mags anymore.
I have some failures to lock back intermittently., but, full disclosure, I changed out all the followers and springs for longer (more coils per spring, and about 1'' longer) Night Hawk Followers and springs. (ETA: I forgot to say, I did that because I thought they'd be more reliable, I really need to order some Wolff springs, what do you guys use, 11 lb springs?)
I've never replaced any other magazine springs for any other weapon in my life. But, anyway.
That being said, I think with the price increase, Quality Control is much better.
Also, my father's exhibited almost none of the issues I had in mine. Except the checkering and that to a lesser extent.
That's been my honest experience with them.
It seems to be isolated.
But even after that the gun MSRP'd for around $1000 and sold for 900-1000 when I bought it.
I honestly suspect I got a lemon.
Those are all issues I really had, no punches pulled.
5-Year warranty too, to the original purchaser, so I'd be hesitant to buy them used, CZ is a bit of a stickler for that.
If the gun's over a $1000 it should have a lifetime warranty, IMHO.
I've talked about my CBOB enough times, that I feel kind of bad mentioning it.
If I had to do it all over again. I'd go with a gun with a finish, the black melonite looks good.
To be 1000% honest with you, my CBOB is nice, but to tell you the truth.
I've had a broken hammer. The grip safety was loose (lots of side to side movement) and the spring wasn't tensioned when I got it (I adjusted it, after an email with Dan Wesson, no big deal), I was new to 1911's and honestly, detail stripping it was very intimidating and frustrating, but I got everything worked out. I feel like that was a little lack luster. I adjusted the spring, the grip safety felt much better.
I was worried it'd turn into something like this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqGL_5AI4Yo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqGL_5AI4Yo)
Never had such experience.
There was a generous amount of machining where the grip safety goes, so it has a lot of movement compared to my Father's CBOB.
I have a lot of vertical movement in my trigger, my Father's doesn't.
I broke a portion of the spurred hammer on mine. Mailed it to DW, they took care of it.
I carry it, and I mean carry it, part of the reason I'd recommend that finish is it's really left a sour taste in my mouth with rust, but, that happens with any firearm, just to different degrees, it's not that bad this time of year, but, it still happens.
The checkering in the top portion was buffed off a little bit, and then bead blasted, I spoke with DW about it, they offered to machine it off and re-finish it, I said some bad checkering was better than no checkering and decided to keep it. Saw something similar on the second CBOB, but not nearly as exacerbated.
I liked the gun, I really loved it when I first bought it.
I almost suspect I got a lemon.
I posted a thread about these concerns over on the 1911forums. Got chewed out, saying I wanted to mod the gun, needless to say, the hammer that I was worried about or wanted to put super cool mod flame jobs on? Part of it hit the ceiling while dry firing it with snap caps a week after I posted that thread.
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=274674
It's a good read, but, that's photographs of every issue I've mentioned. (I'm not going to photograph rust, unless you want me to... I need to clean it tonight)
That and needing to replace magazine springs, I'm kind of coming to the conclusion that the 1911 should only be used with 7 round magazines. Guys are replacing their 8 round magazine springs, some recommending every 6-8 months.
I won't even use my Chip McCormick 10-rounder power mags anymore.
I have some failures to lock back intermittently., but, full disclosure, I changed out all the followers and springs for longer (more coils per spring, and about 1'' longer) Night Hawk Followers and springs. (ETA: I forgot to say, I did that because I thought they'd be more reliable, I really need to order some Wolff springs, what do you guys use, 11 lb springs?)
I've never replaced any other magazine springs for any other weapon in my life. But, anyway.
That being said, I think with the price increase, Quality Control is much better.
Also, my father's exhibited almost none of the issues I had in mine. Except the checkering and that to a lesser extent.
That's been my honest experience with them.
It seems to be isolated.
But even after that the gun MSRP'd for around $1000 and sold for 900-1000 when I bought it.
I honestly suspect I got a lemon.
Those are all issues I really had, no punches pulled.
5-Year warranty too, to the original purchaser, so I'd be hesitant to buy them used, CZ is a bit of a stickler for that.
If the gun's over a $1000 it should have a lifetime warranty, IMHO.
Its nice to see someone take the time to give an honest evaluation on a pistol that they own, warts and all. Well done.
Agreed. I go with the Kimber.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Are you really recommending one of the most problematic, MIM filled 1911's on the market in a thread about Dan Wesson with your first post? Other than Taurus, there are very few 1911's who have proven their lack of reliability and poor quality like Kimber has. The people who buy a Kimbers, are generally those whose eyes glaze over as they look at the glossy ad's in the rags as they sit on the can and drop the kids off at the pool...
Take some time and start to read and learn before posting drivel.
Its nice to see someone take the time to give an honest evaluation on a pistol that they own, warts and all. Well done.
I just tried to be honest.
Honestly, that's how mine was, my Father's, it's a bit of a night and day experience.
Didn't have any of the vertical play in the trigger, horizontal play in the grip safety, had the newer thicker hammer that they were using (and replaced my broken one with, all their models seem to come standard with the newer thicker one, or an Ed Brown Hammer). Grip Safety was properly tensioned from the factory, no side to side "wiggle" that I had. (ETA: I think my impression of that wiggle was also from the fact they didn't tension the spring correctly, again, but that was my out of the box experience, again, first 1911, first handgun) The checkering top row has some slight over buffing, where some of it was ground off slightly, but other then that, it's craftsmanship is fantastic, everything IMHO, is as it should be.
I feel it's a good quality firearm, but, I wanted to tell the truth about what I got.
http://cz-usa.com/warranty/
They still have a 5-year Warranty on the new ones.
I get the impression the new models are definitely higher quality.
They MSRP for about double the price, I would not accept any of the things I listed for their prices these days.
But again, seem to be much higher quality. I'll keep this gun the rest of my life.
It's an accurate gun, I just wanted to say all of the negative things I had with mine, but, it's a very accurate gun, and I feel it's a "Production" gun, so I don't feel cheated, honestly.
Anyway, good luck to the O.P.
ETA 2: For the price, I feel some of those things are acceptable, at the price I bought it at, again, but anyway, I'll leave it at that.
ETA 3: As a side note, I also got mine in '08.
Just a few quick thoughts.
The new Dan Wesson's Valor models have improved small parts, forged frames, better checkering, undercut trigger guard, improved sights and a better finish(the new Ionbond type finish, on some models) than older Dan Wesson models. And many would say better fit and finish as well. So to compare an older DW to a Les Baer and say that the newer Dan Wesson models aren't worth the price doesn't make any sense really as they aren't one and the same.
Saying a used Les Baer, Ed Brown, etc. costs the same as a new Valor is kind of a silly argument...I could just reply and say to go find a user Valor because it will cost the same as a high end Kimber.
Speaking of price, a stainless Valor can be found new for under $1400. They really aren't priced the same as a Les Baer. If your talking about the black finished ones then its going to be close to the Baer...but then you are comparing a gun with a $300 Ionbond type finish to a traditional blue finish. Refinish the Baer in Ionbond and then compare prices again.
I'm not trying to imply that Dan Wesson's Valor models are just as good or better than a Baer but they are comparable in terms of quality of parts used at least if not fit and finish as well(Haven't had close up time with a Baer so its not my place to make blanket statements about which is "better" in that regard.) I would say that you could probably trust the Baer name more than Dan Wesson but that also doesn't mean that a Valor won't run just as well as a Baer.
I will make this brief... I understand the point you are trying to make and you articulated in a well thought out manner.
Here is the biggest things that you are missing in your equation though. DW 1911's are manufactured or as many would say... simply put together like a puzzle. They are a regular production pistols like Kimber, Colt and SA (except for the custom shop Pro) to name a few of the major players in that segment...
My point is very simple and maybe it is lost due to its simplicity. When you go up to that next segment (semi custom) its not just the parts that are superior to production line 1911's. You are getting countless hours of hand fitting of every single part on the gun and in many cases no two are alike...
One of the most critical components to a reliable 1911 is the fitting of each and every part as you BUILD the pistol vs "putting it together" .... Its not just the parts used, its the actual fitting of the pistol that separates the production segment from the semi custom market.
This is why I feel that if you are having to spend middle to high teens for a 1911 that the Baer is a tremendous value when compared to an off the line 1911.
There is a great article and video floating around about the amount of hours and fitting spent on each and every Baer that is worth the watch / read.
You bring up finishes which are valid however in this case its mute as you could buy a used Super Tac for middle to high teens...
The other thing I am struck by with many in the DW click is how little they actually shoot them... In some ways they dont seem to have a good basis to see if the damn thing is actually reliable. I see so many I have 400 flawless rounds, I have 1300 flawless rounds etc... I have shot tens of thousands of rounds through Baers in very harsh environments and thats how I know they work and are an excellent value in the marketplace...
I wont get into the shilling that goes on over on TOS that you guys are referring to. Sadly m1911 is dead as there used to be a good amount of information their for a long time...
Hopefully this better clarifies my point and position.
I understand your point. I will say that my Dan Wesson Valor and Vbob are head on shoulders above my previous Colt Special Combat's pistols in terms of fitting and quality throughout and to group them with Colt, Kimber, etc. just isn't accurate in my view. They use better parts and show a much higher level of fit and finish throughout. They seem to fall above the other standard production 1911's and below the semi customs I guess. Which is a position they had before, they have just moved up in price and quality. Maybe too high in price as you have suggested.
At this point the biggest problem with a DW is that DW is still a niche 1911 that few people consider or own and therefore they will continue to be viewed with doubt concerning their quality and they have yet to prove that quality through years of hard use by a large enough branch of shooters.
To be honest they need someone like you d90king to buy one and put it through its paces. I will donate $1 towards this charitable effort. :cool:
Comes down to what you have to spend on a 1911.
JMO the prices of Nighthawks .. Wilson Combat are getting over the top.
They are Production Semi Custom 1911's.
The Supergrades are just about full custom but are priced very high.
You can get full custom pistols for what they now charge.
I have a good friend who sells high end 1911's and he also thinks they are getting over priced.
That said they are better pistols than Dan Wessons but JMO the average shooter that only shoots #1000
to #5000 rounds a year will be happy with a Dan Wesson.
even at 25 meters a Valor will group as good as most semi customs and at 21 to 45 feet group as good as a semi custom.
50 yards Baers will show you why they are more money.
I carry a Heritage and am happy with it so far .. only #2000 rounds.
Time will tell if the Dan Wessons will hold up for 1000's of rounds.
I laugh when guys post there targets with there $3000 Semi Customs at 21 feet and state what tac drivers they have and the slide to frame fit is unreal.
I bet if you gave most of them a Valor with the same cosmectics of a Nightawk they would post about the freaky trigger and how smooth the slide racks and tell you to spend the extra money and don't look back.
I agree most do more talking than shooting but it's the semi custom crowd too that is guilty. all above is JMO and I am a NOBODY in the gun world.
Baers are the best value for a hard fit hands on built 1911.
nobody knows
01-26-11, 05:49
I have always wanted a cco and I still do, though I don't have any experience with them or bear. I would say from all that I've herd that you can't really go wrong with ether one. What I do have experience with and will say is stay the f#$k away from kimber at all costs, and all aluminum framed 1911's belong in hell. as they are evil and will kill your dog.
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