View Full Version : Which Compact 1911?
Recent developments in my practice/training have me considering a 1911 in .45 ACP as a carry option. Having always carried something in high-capacity 9mm, I am currently re-thinking the .45's greater one-shot stopping power.
I owned a dozen or so various 1911's from the late 80's through early 00's, mostly full sized. Prior to my receiving a carry permit, these were partly kept for home defense, but were mostly shot and practiced with for USPSA (and eventually IDPA for awhile once it came along). I did a lot of my own custom work on most of them, so I know the workings of the 1911 platform pretty well inside and out.
Among the above were a few examples of compact models, including those by Kimber and Springfield, along with a couple of Colt Combat Commanders. Although I always felt the full sized guns had an advantage in competition, the balance and handling of their mid-sized counterparts appealed to me. I also always knew though, that not being very large in mass or circumference I would never feel comfortable adapting a full sized 1911 for everyday carry. The prospects for some kind of compact stayed in the back of my mind though.
Subsequently, around the same time that I got my first carry permit I was getting swept up in shooting a lot of various designs among hi-cap 9mm's, which for the past decade have filled the carry role (along with a K-frame S&W during high-summer t-shirt weather) as well as most of my IDPA participation. So 1911's in general have dropped off my radar in recent years, and no compact 1911 was ever put into carry duty.
I know a lot has happened in the 1911 market during this period, hence my inquiry here. There are a lot more makes to choose from, and most of their prices appear to have nearly doubled from what I typically payed years ago. I am also troubled by a perceived trend of 1911's becoming more "competition tuned", which to me translates into finicky and unreliable. Most of my old 1911's were standard factory models that I modified to fit my particular preferences, but which still would be considered sneeringly loose by today's custom-gun aficionados. Conversely, they flawlessly fed anything from my own match handloads up to high-power factory hollowpoints.
Any 1911 though, still fits my hand far better than any other design I have tried (and over the past quarter-century there have been more than a few). I also hold that this platform was destined for the .45 round, and the round for the platform. If I ever again shoot .45 on any basis, I want it to be out of some kind of 1911.
So I would be interested in hearing from anyone having experience in real-world everyday carry of any of the currently available crop of 1911 compact models. My only criterion is that reliability is of paramount importance. All other considerations (finish, features, price, etc.) are secondary.
Thanks for any input.:)
Business_Casual
12-27-10, 08:09
This is headed for a lock - it is a version of 9 mm vs. 45.
B_C
This is headed for a lock - it is a version of 9 mm vs. 45.
B_C
That would be very unfortunate.:sad:
To all others -- puh-LEEEZ -- refrain from the referred to ad-nauseum debate. My intent is solely within the constraints of the orignal post.
I have shot all major handgun calibers for many years. Each has its advantages and disadvantages.
I would really like to gain from the advantage of our collective experience within the specified realm.
Please don't make my post get locked.:cray:
Business_Casual
12-27-10, 09:12
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=30221
Well, there are plenty of threads that have already covered the 1911 debate, not to mention a separate forum.
B_C
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=30221
Well, there are plenty of threads that have already covered the 1911 debate, not to mention a separate forum.
B_C
Well, I was hoping for some fairly specific information and guidance, and certainly not a "debate".
(edited) Thank you moderator for relocating this post. I didn't notice until too late that there is a separate board solely for the 1911.
El Pistolero
12-27-10, 16:28
Well, I used to be in the higher-capacity-for-carry camp (full-sixe XD-9), but with that said, I ended up using a Kahr CW9 for carry, ironically. The Kahr had 8 rounds of 9x19, so the capacity issue became a moot point for me and I felt comfortable carrying with 8 rounds of 9mm because I practiced A LOT and I no longer saw the capacity as a handicap.
But I also appreciated the accuracy and ergonomics offered by the 1911 and started to consider a compact 1911 myself. I like the Commander size more than anything else. Some people like the smaller 3-inch model, but for me the 4-1/4" barreled Commander is the perfect size for ME, good compromise between handling and sight radius of the full-size 5-inch model and the compactness of a 3-inch. And there's a good selection of holsters out there that can conceal a 1911 well.
Any name brand 1911 runs well. S&W, Kimber, Wilson and so on. No real bad brands out there.
Business_Casual
12-27-10, 19:02
Any name brand 1911 runs well. S&W, Kimber, Wilson and so on. No real bad brands out there.
This is based on your extensive experience with 1911s, then?
RancidSumo
12-27-10, 19:37
The Colt Defender I have experience with has been a very reliable firearm through >2000rds in the last 6-8 months. This includes one four day class. It isn't my handgun, it belongs to my dad, but I have shot it quite a bit and been with him through most of his shooting it. It is very accurate and of course fits the hand like a 1911.
It has however had a few malfunctions when it got dirty and I believe partially due to a worn out recoil spring that my stubborn dad won't replace. I trust that 1911 more than any other I have shot but, I have not shot any of the really high end 1911's. Just Colts, Springfields, Taurus, and Rock Island.
First of all, .45 ACP does NOT offer "greater one-shot stopping power" than 9 mm. When compared to 9 mm, .45 ACP does offer better terminal performance after defeating automobile windshields, has the potential ability to break bones better than 9 mm, and crushes a bit more tissue. However, when using well designed ammunition, both calibers work quite well--I have no qualms about carrying a 9 mm; in fact I am using a G19 right now. For most people, a quality, lightweight 9 mm like a G19, M&P9, or HK P30 are better options for CCW than a compact .45 ACP pistol.
Having said that, a properly customized 5" steel-frame single-stack 1911 in .45 ACP can be a superb, unparalleled choice for the dedicated user willing to spend a significant amount of money to get it properly initially set-up and considerable time to maintain it. Keep in mind with 1911 pistols that calibers other than .45 ACP and barrels shorter than 5" induce increasingly greater problems. I've had a few compact 1911 style pistols over the years--they required significantly more work to initially run reliably and a lot of additional effort to keep them running. The shorter the slide, the worse it gets--Commanders are a lot easier to deal with than Officer's models, but a better option is a 5" lightweight 1911.
Also, stay away from 1911's with a Schwartz firing pin safety (like on the Kimber II pistols) as I have seen high numbers of them fail; the Colt Series 80 firing pin safety is the only one I might trust for urban LE use, but they have also been known to fail in harsh environments (particularly surf zone and high dust) so I generally prefer a standard USG style 1911 pistol w/o firing pin safety.
I personally would not choose to carry most stock or even semi-custom 1911's on duty without making sure they were set-up properly with reliable function, durable parts, and ergonomic execution. I firmly believe that if you want a 1911 for serious use, the minimum level of quality for a duty/carry weapon is the SA Pro model (either PC9111 or PC9111LR if you want a light rail); if you’re not willing to invest that much into the weapon system, don't get a 1911... I write this after being around quite a few 1911's over the past two decades of military and LE duty, including GI, commercial Colt, SA (Milspec, Loaded, MC Oper, Professional models), Wilson, Kimber, Nighthawk, Les Baer, and Para Ord, as well as custom pistols by folks like Bill Laughridge, Wayne Novak/Joe Bonar, Ed Brown, John Jardine, Hilton Yam, Larry Vickers, and Chuck Rogers.
I'd strongly recommend anyone contemplating a 1911 for serious use read all of the material on 1911's here: http://www.10-8performance.com/Articles.html.
For folks who want a .45 ACP pistol, but don't want to invest the funds and effort into getting a good 1911, they would be better served with the S&W M&P45, HK45, or even a G21sf.
Honestly Randy, I can't really add to anything that Doc hasn't already said.
If you want a mid size/compact .45 ACP, the HK45C and the S&W M&P .45 Mid Size would be what I'd look at.
Thanks for the replies everybody.
I'm getting the consensus that today's 1911's are just too high-maintenance. Too bad -- everything else considered reliable-for-carry looks and feels so much more clunky.
I carry this:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y225/hillmillenia/ColtNewAgent.jpg
It is not high maintenance...straight shootin' and will reliably run everything I've put though it including SWC...The sights are uneccessary in a defensive handgun...or you can opt for the Defender if you think you need 'em...packs 9 in condition one. I highly recomend it...
I carry this:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y225/hillmillenia/ColtNewAgent.jpg
It is not high maintenance...straight shootin' and will reliably run everything I've put though it including SWC...I highly recomend it...
Thanks. Most of the dozen-or-so 1911's I had late 80's-early 00's were Colts, mostly full-sized although also a couple of Commanders (never any Officers though). They got a lot of regular use and all ran very well. During most that period the brand was widely considered to be the only "real" 1911. I only began running into any problems toward the end when I tried a few of the other more recent makes.
The New Agent appears to be the perfect gun for defensive carry for me anyway...Alloy frame and 3" barrel, it has replaced my other carry pieces most of the time...all of which are 1911 Colts...guess I'm kinda old fashioned...but I gotta go with what I trust and no sense arguing over an individua'ls choice of firearm or cartridge when a life could be on the line...;)
I have about 30 years of experience with a variety of 1911s: Colts; SAs; Kimbers; and a Les Baer. I've stuck with govt. and Cmdr. length pistols because of the fear of problems with shorter ones, until a short while ago when a freind let me shoot his 3" Kimber Ultra SIS. Of course I loved it- all steel, no internal safety & a good shooter at reasonable distances. Anyway, I broke it in with 250 rounds of FMJ and HPs with perfect reliability. The bad news is that this model has been discontinued; but Kimber is currently making a Super Carry model (lightweight) without the internal safety. It is kind of pricey, but I think it would be a good choice. :) WB
Honestly Randy, I can't really add to anything that Doc hasn't already said.
If you want a mid size/compact .45 ACP, the HK45C and the S&W M&P .45 Mid Size would be what I'd look at.
This comment and the prevailing widsom that 1911 pattern pistols shorter than 5 in will not be as reliable makes me wonder...
Why doesn't this problem affect shortened pistols of other designs like Glock, HK, and the M&P series? Aren't the same factors in play that cause short barrel 1911's to be less reliable?
Thanks
[/i] I've had a few compact 1911 style pistols over the years--they required significantly more work to initially run reliably and a lot of additional effort to keep them running. The shorter the slide, the worse it gets--Commanders are a lot easier to deal with than Officer's models, but a better option is a 5" lightweight 1911.
This is the gospel.
Short 1911's are fun and can be made to run reliably, but for many, it's a question of if it's worth it to you to put the time in. I still have one as a carry option, but as time goes on and I acquire more and more carry gear for other platforms, it is seeing less use.
Business_Casual
12-29-10, 12:15
This comment and the prevailing widsom that 1911 pattern pistols shorter than 5 in will not be as reliable makes me wonder...
Why doesn't this problem affect shortened pistols of other designs like Glock, HK, and the M&P series? Aren't the same factors in play that cause short barrel 1911's to be less reliable?
Thanks
Look at the feed ramps and angles and compare and contrast them, it will answer your question.
B_C
What does the feed ramp angle have to do with the length of the slide?
Thanks
What does the feed ramp angle have to do with the length of the slide?
Thanks
I think he's referring to the steeper angle on a 1911, contrasting with the shallower angle with many other platforms. A steep feedramp angle isn't conducive to feeding all types of ammo and IMO is where the 1911 gets its reputation for being a finicky feeder. This steep feedramp needs the mass of a fullsize slide to slam the round home more than other designs with a shallower ramp.
That's my understanding anyway.
*Edit*
Even subtle differences in OAL can greatly change feeding reliability in my compacts, not to mention bullet profile. That just isn't the case with my Glocks.
I think he's referring to the steeper angle on a 1911, contrasting with the shallower angle with many other platforms. A steep feedramp angle isn't conducive to feeding all types of ammo and IMO is where the 1911 gets its reputation for being a finicky feeder. This steep feedramp needs the mass of a fullsize slide to slam the round home more than other designs with a shallower ramp.
That's my understanding anyway.
*Edit*
Even subtle differences in OAL can greatly change feeding reliability in my compacts, not to mention bullet profile. That just isn't the case with my Glocks.
Thus the need for stronger recoil springs in the shortened version?
I'd heed the advice given in this thread. Earlier this year I was really wanting to get another CCO pattern gun and sought advice on this forum and even had a candid conversation with a couple 1911 tuners. No one told me anything different. Out of the box, things might be hit or miss and that's with a fullsize gun, things start "missing" alot more as the barrel length gets shortened. You can have a well running compact 1911 but it's going to cost you to get it set up or built and keep it running. I just don't have the heart (or money) to put into a project of that magnitude at the moment and I wasn't sure I wanted the extra weight on my hip so I shelved the idea. Rock on with your Glock dude, it's not sexy but it works and ultimately that's what you need it to do when it counts. I know it's not what you want to hear but why bullshit?
Thus the need for stronger recoil springs in the shortened version?
Correct. Those stronger springs also have less margin for error and wear because they're asked to do more.
I'd heed the advice given in this thread.......Rock on with your Glock dude, it's not sexy but it works and ultimately that's what you need it to do when it counts. I know it's not what you want to hear but why bullshit?
That's how I'm starting to lean.
That's how I'm starting to lean.
It took a while for it to sink in for me too because I really wanted another 1911 but I'm trying to be more practical these days. Doesn't change the fact that I really want a single stack 9mm carry gun with a 4lb single action trigger. If I ever have $2-3K to blow I'd fork it over to Wilson and get what I want but that day isn't today.
I know conventional wisdom says sub-5" 1911s aren't reliable, but I haven't had reliability problems with any of these...
STI Escort .45
STI Shadow .45 (daily carry)
Colt Defender .45
STI Ranger II .45
STI Ranger II 9mm
I did have trouble with one, and that was the Kimber Super Carry Pro.
3" barrels
http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n634/G27RR/1911OfficerModels-1.jpg
4.15" barrels
http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n634/G27RR/STIRangerIIs.jpg
As you can see from these pics, the Shadow gets a lot of range and carry time in. Since I had heard so many say that compacts will have problems, I ran 1,000 rounds of mixed FMJ & JHP through it before deciding to carry it full time. It has had at least another 1,000 since then and I have no reason not to continue to trust it.
http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n634/G27RR/800600/STIShadow800600.jpg
Honestly Randy, I can't really add to anything that Doc hasn't already said.
If you want a mid size/compact .45 ACP, the HK45C and the S&W M&P .45 Mid Size would be what I'd look at.
Sage advice.
trooper430
01-01-11, 17:07
I have carried a stainless Kimber Ultra Carry for about 5 years now as an off duty weapon. Qualify on it every years and probably put about 1000 rounds through the weapon. So far it has been a great weapon.
RancidSumo
01-02-11, 01:01
I have carried a stainless Kimber Ultra Carry for about 5 years now as an off duty weapon. Qualify on it every years and probably put about 1000 rounds through the weapon. So far it has been a great weapon.
That is only 200 rounds a year, not enough to say that it is a reliable firearm. I personally no experience with Kimber firearms but from what I have read on this board, combined with my experiences with 1911's in general, I'd seriously consider picking up a couple of cases of ammo and running it through that gun before I trusted my life to it.
trooper430
01-02-11, 12:24
That is only 200 rounds a year, not enough to say that it is a reliable firearm. I personally no experience with Kimber firearms but from what I have read on this board, combined with my experiences with 1911's in general, I'd seriously consider picking up a couple of cases of ammo and running it through that gun before I trusted my life to it.
I think that 18 years of law enforcement experience combined with 24 years in the military qualifies me to pick a quality weapon to carry off duty and trust my life on.
RancidSumo
01-02-11, 13:00
I think that 18 years of law enforcement experience combined with 24 years in the military qualifies me to pick a quality weapon to carry off duty and trust my life on.
I don't but its your life and not mine so continue with what you're doing I guess.
trooper430
01-02-11, 13:15
No firearms is perfect, they all have there faults. The ability to perform immediate action when you have a failure is key. Your average person buying a weapon for selfdefense is not going to fire thousands of rounds through it a year.
RancidSumo
01-02-11, 14:02
No firearms is perfect, they all have there faults. The ability to perform immediate action when you have a failure is key. Your average person buying a weapon for selfdefense is not going to fire thousands of rounds through it a year.
Clearing a malfunction is good to know but I think I'll stick to choosing firearms that greatly reduce my risk of needing to do that.
As the OP I'll step in here as moderator ex officio and ask that we get things back on-topic -- thanks.
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