View Full Version : Raven Concealment... Good Holster, but customer service???
I just placed my order with Raven Concealment Systems for a Phantom Holster.
The following is copy and pasted from the E-mail transactions...
From Raven..
Comments
Thanks for your order. We’re about 12-13 weeks deep in orders at the moment. We will not charge your card until your order is in production. You will be notified via email when your order ships.
If you have questions about your order, please see the FAQ listed at the bottom left of our home page. If the FAQ doesn\'t answer your question, please respond to this email, we\'ll be happy to help you.
Kelly
Me..
Is there any way I could be notified before my card is charged? I would like to be sure the money is good since it is so far out.
Thanks
J.D. Hill
here's where it gets dicey.
Raven..
JD,
We do not have the resources or manpower to notify before a charge. It is the customers responsibility to ensure funds are available.
If you'd prefer, we can charge the order now to avoid any future issues.
Please let me know how you wish to proceed,
(Name Omitted)
Director of Sales
is it just me or is this guy trying to be a Mike,Foxtrot?
so I reply..
Well, 12 weeks is a fairly long time, and $85.00 is not cheap. I was just trying to ensure, as is my responsibility, that the funds will be available. Yes charge my card ASAP.
J.D.
Raven Concealment makes good stuff but i'm seriously thinking about dropping this order all together :mad:
There is only one Director of Sales here, no need to omit my name. I wrote it, and I'll stand behind it.
As much as we'd like to be a massive corporation with rows of cubical's for our workers to manage orders, we are not. We are a fluid and growing company that is hiring on more staff to produce and ship holsters as fast as we can.
Our terms/policies are clearly displayed on our webpage, as well a candid look into our operation to explain where we're coming from. It is also clearly labeled that we will charge the card up front, should the customer request it.
Ordering and paying for an item is the customers responsibility. I do not manage your finances nor have any control on the physical date your card will be charged in a standard cycle of production. For me to notify you of the charge I would need to create some type of tracking system/software, and review it every time before we charge an order. Those are logistical issues we just simply cannot perform at this time.
We recommend the customer write their purchase in their check register when they place the order. This way, there will always be funds available. The issue here is 99% of people do not keep a check register, and therefore are unwilling to manage their order this way (I spent 5 years in the finance industry, I know this all too well).
My email was not meant to carry any haste, nor offend you. If it did, I apologize. We are doing everything we possibly can to keep up on orders coming in and going out, as well as correspondence coming in. Every employee is already spread thin, and adding more clutter to the process would just slow us down that much more.
For a bit of industry reference, I'd ask you to review Milt Spark's policies and guidelines. The late Mr. Sparks, and his current crew, have been in this game a long time. They have had an overwhelming customer base for decades now. Quite frankly, they know what they're doing, and they do it well. From their website:
...and it is the responsibility of the Debit card owner to be sure there are funds available for the transaction. We will not be held responsible for any overdraft charges from your bank, because you neglected to have funds available in your account to complete the sale! It is suggested that you log the amount of the sale into your check register at the time you place the order even though the sale will unlikely occur for several months down the road. If this is a problem, we suggest you use some other method of payment. Give us a call if you have any questions on this policy.
We deal with many of the same issues Milt Sparks Holster's deals with, and you'll find many parallels in our policies and theirs for that very reason.
Again, my apologies if you took offense. That was certainly not my intention.
To provide a third party point of view, no, I don't think Tom was being a "Mike,Foxtrot".
From what I've seen of the production updates from Raven, they have somewhere around 2000 or so orders currently active in their queue. I believe they've said in the past that the vast majority of their orders already have some sort of change or modification in them from the time they are placed until the time they are delivered, which requires the time of the staff.
It is unrealistic in my opinion to attempt to contact each person who has placed an order and verify consent to charge their card. Each one of those contacts would probably involve phone tag or e-mails lost in spam folders so on and so forth and that would extend Raven's already long lead times even more.
I do realize where you are coming from. but I do definitely see the need for a little tact in responding to E-Mails received from customers. Costumer relations is also an important part of the game. I am a costumer, and plan to be a costumer from now and on, but after I received your E-mail I seriously reconsidered my decision to continue to do business with a company who has no regard for its customers. Thank you for the reply. I am going forward with the transaction because of the quality of the product, that is all
I do realize where you are coming from. but I do definitely see the need for a little tact in responding to E-Mails received from customers. Costumer relations is also an important part of the game. I am a costumer, and plan to be a costumer from now and on, but after I received your E-mail I seriously reconsidered my decision to continue to do business with a company who has no regard for its customers. Thank you for the reply. I am going forward with the transaction because of the quality of the product, that is all
I am sorry my email came off in a different way than it was intended. I would encourage you to seek out other customers of ours and see what their opinion of our CS is. We (me, specifically, but everyone here is involved) do everything we can to ensure our CS is the best it can be. I can't magically make holsters 10 times faster than we are now, but I can give you the promise that I will do everything in my power to ensure you are pleased with the final product and order process.
Take care,
Tom
I had to pay a hefty deposit when I shipped my Colt 1991 to a gunsmith for custom work a few years back. I'd be glad that the card is not charged until the holster is ready to be shipped. This would give you time to build up your account to cover the difference just in case.
I do realize where you are coming from. but I do definitely see the need for a little tact in responding to E-Mails received from customers. Costumer relations is also an important part of the game. I am a costumer, and plan to be a costumer from now and on, but after I received your E-mail I seriously reconsidered my decision to continue to do business with a company who has no regard for its customers.
Yeah, that's the part I'm confused about. You're way over the top on this...sounds like YOU'RE the one being a Mike Foxtrot.
I found his email to be to the point, but I don't see where you got any reason to get your nose out of joint and complain about their "costumer" relations. Sounds like they treated you just fine - did you a favor even.
Very puzzling post. Frankly I think you should be embarrassed to have written it.
There is only one Director of Sales here,
As much as we'd like to be a massive corporation with rows of cubical's for our workers to manage orders, we are not.
When I perfect my cloning to make the perfect woman from the good bits and pieces, I am sure we can work out a deal where I can clone you for a few free holsters.......:sarcastic:
I do realize where you are coming from. but I do definitely see the need for a little tact in responding to E-Mails received from customers. Costumer relations is also an important part of the game. I am a costumer, and plan to be a costumer from now and on, but after I received your E-mail I seriously reconsidered my decision to continue to do business with a company who has no regard for its customers. Thank you for the reply. I am going forward with the transaction because of the quality of the product, that is all
Tom's e-mail was honest and to the point. I am not sure where you got bad CS out of that exchange.
C4
Very puzzling post. Frankly I think you should be embarrassed to have written it.
;)
C4
Havok,
I'm going to have to say I see your side, BUT In no way, shape and or form do I feel Tom's response was out of line, or poor customer service. He stated his company's polices and he gave you an alternative, you can pay right off the bat to save any issues down the road with needing to know if you'll have the funds in the account. I have ordered holsters from milt sparks, they have a 6+ month lead time. I just have them charge the card up front to make sure there's no miscalculations when I'm paying bills 6 month from now. As I'm sure you can tell, Raven Concealment is held in high regards hear and there higher ups are easily accessible here .Trust me, their products are well worth the wait and though I haven't had any problems with any of my products from them, I KNOW if I needed customer service on a product with them, I'd get it. I hope his gives you some food for thought.
Count me as one of the happy Raven customers. Sure, their stuff takes a long time, but it is worth it.
Here's the thing, Havok:
Not charging your card until your product is ready for shipping is common for products that are not immediately available on the shelf (custom jobs or backorders). Be thankful that Raven even makes the effort, either through their website or though their active membership on forums, to warn buyers that there is a backorder for their gear. They answer questions via email and PM promptly, and are actually pretty receptive to custom requests from buyers. There's plenty of good press here to support their business practices.
As for when to charge: Customarily, when you buy something, you get charged right away. Not charging you yet is a courtesy, since the item hasn't been made yet, and so you'd have the option to back away if the wait isn't to your liking, or if you find a better product. It makes refunds a non-issue, which is mutually beneficial. If you're not sure of your finances in 4 months, then you can opt to be charged now; waiting and notifying you then would entail holding up your (and others'?) orders until you sent a reply.
This is the part where someone would post a link to The Raven Concealment Awesomness Thread, part Deux (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=65046).
redfernsoljah
12-28-10, 18:18
I Good Holster, but costumer service???
Yeah I hear ya the costumes they make are terrible but the holster are good to go! :sarcastic:
Havok,
I ordered a holster from RC this past summer and had to contact them numerous times to change my order. I changed my mind twice on the style holster i wanted, I added a magazine carrier once and had to submit a new credit card # because my original card was stolen. Each time I contacted them, they politely and immediately helped me out. The products they sent me exceeded my expectations as did their CS. In reading the email you've posted, I see nothing but a straight forward reply to the question you asked. They gave you a lead time on when to expect the product, when the time draws near just make sure the funds are available, it's not like they didn't give you an approximate time frame. They were right on the mark with my estimated delivery time, and I think they have a thread here to follow that is updated on ranges of orders being processed.
:sarcastic: at the concept of kydex costumes.
lol.. kydex costume, and my awful spelling...
This was just a case of him being blunt and to the point and me being a jackass.
That being said Raven Concealment is by far the best holsters available today and Tom could have probably said whatever he wanted to, I would've ranted and stomped around a bit, but still its a Raven Concealment Phantom Modular Holster.
I took it the wrong way, then went off the deep end. My apologies and can't wait to get this holster
m24shooter
12-28-10, 20:35
I think you'll be very happy with their holster. I've got a couple and also a mag carrier and I will happily order more in the future.
My holster just shipped and it was right on the 12-13 week time frame. I have nothing but good things to say about their customer service!! I was notified every step of the way about the progress of my holster and magazine carrier. When they were going to charge my card they even notified me that if my original card had expired or if I would like to use a different card I could supply that number. In my case my original card had expired and I had closed out that account. I gave them a different card number and all was fine.
RCS makes a great holster. Tom and his crew are as fine a bunch of people as their holsters are top of the line.
Seems like all questions were asked, and answered. Even if someone was being a complete assclown in response, which I don't see, what purpose does posting that here serve?
Internet drama? :bad:
This kind of retardation is why I would be a horrible dealer or manufacturor. I have no patience for these kind of jokers.
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