NFA rifle for self-defense or duty

[CarlosDJackal]

I only have one NFA rifle: my SBR. It rides around in the trunk of my car along with my plate carrier (with Level IV composite plate, blow-out kit, and 6x30-round magazines) and my helmet bag (with knee pads and kevlar helmet). My agency does not have a Tactical Team, but a bunch of us have been driving around with "trunk rifles" in out POVs for year.

I was wondering how many NFA stamp holders have also relegated their registered guns for use in self-defense or duty/emergency? If so, how does your setup look like?

This is what my "Emergency Trunk Kit" is composed of:

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w169/CarlosDJackal/TrunkKit01.jpg

[welchtactical]

Nice set-up Carlos. Where’s your multi-color propeller hat?:D Scares the sh*t out the baddies! What light mount you running? Thinking about mounting my light in the same spot on my SBR {coming soon, god and ATF willing:rolleyes: }.

[USMC03]

I'm currently running a personally owned SBR as my SWAT gun. Depending on what kind of mission we're running, I carry either the rifle below or one of my M4's with a Short Dot on it:


LMT / LaRue / Bravo Company :

-Factory LMT Lower / Bolt Carrier / Charging Handle

-LaRue Tactical Stealth Upper Receiver

-LaRue 11.0 rail system

-Bravo Company (www.bravocompanyusa.com) 11.5" barrel (with cut down USGI A2 front sight base)

-Noveske KX3 flash hider

-Tango Down rail pannels

-Tango Down vertical foregrip

-Tango Down Battle Grip pistol grip

-Aimpoint ML2

-LaRue Aimpoint Mount

-LaRue Tactical Rear BUIS

-LMT Front BUIS

-KNS non-rotating hammer / trigger pin set

-Blue Force Gear VCAS Sling

-Magpul Enhanced Trigger Guard

-LMT SOPMOD stock

-Surefire M600 Scout light with clicker tail cap and incandesent bulb

-LaRue Tactical Scout light mount

-Orion Arms Engraving on the lower (info for SBR per BATFE....name, city, state)



http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s206/molsen2295/USMC03/LMT%20LaRue%20SBR/DSC02100.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s206/molsen2295/USMC03/LMT%20LaRue%20SBR/DSC02101.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s206/molsen2295/USMC03/LMT%20LaRue%20SBR/DSC02102.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s206/molsen2295/USMC03/LMT%20LaRue%20SBR/DSC02103.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s206/molsen2295/USMC03/LMT%20LaRue%20SBR/DSC02104.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s206/molsen2295/USMC03/LMT%20LaRue%20SBR/DSC02105.jpg



From Pat Rogers' EAG Tactical Carbine Operator's Course:

http://demigodllc.com/~zak/DigiCam/EAG-Carbine-2007/small/D101_5240_img.jpg

http://demigodllc.com/~zak/DigiCam/EAG-Carbine-2007/small/D101_5230_img.jpg

http://demigodllc.com/~zak/DigiCam/EAG-Carbine-2007/small/D101_5255_img.jpg

http://demigodllc.com/~zak/DigiCam/EAG-Carbine-2007/small/D101_5247_img.jpg










Semper Fi,
Jeff

[gunny]

Here's my CMMG 10.3 medcon 1/7 on Oly lower for duty use...waiting on a can:
http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa270/force8654/DSC01254.jpg

[BigCraig]

My HD gun.

http://www.hunt101.com/img/488498.jpg

[CarlosDJackal]

Nice set-up Carlos. Where’s your multi-color propeller hat?:D Scares the sh*t out the baddies! What light mount you running? Thinking about mounting my light in the same spot on my SBR {coming soon, god and ATF willing:rolleyes: }.

I don't remember which Surefire model that is. It came with a pressure switch and I have it mounted via Viking Tactical light mount (http://www.blade-tech.com/Viking-Tactics-Light-Mount-pr-923.html). I've been considering replacing this with the new CAA Laser/Light mount. (http://www.commandarms.com/product.asp?pID=162&cID=19)

Good luck with your SBR project and make sure you put up a picture of it in the Official SBR thread once you get it completed!!

[gunny]

I don't remember which Surefire model that is. It came with a pressure switch and I have it mounted via Viking Tactical light mount (http://www.blade-tech.com/Viking-Tactics-Light-Mount-pr-923.html). I've been considering replacing this with the new CAA Laser/Light mount. (http://www.commandarms.com/product.asp?pID=162&cID=19)

Good luck with your SBR project and make sure you put up a picture of it in the Official SBR thread once you get it completed!!

Looks like a Surefire 6P. Your experience may vary if you choose to buy the CAA light/laser mount. Every one I've seen & used myself allow the lights & lasers to work loose within the mount after time due to recoil...no matter how tight the light was screwed in.

[CarlosDJackal]

Looks like a Surefire 6P. Your experience may vary if you choose to buy the CAA light/laser mount. Every one I've seen & used myself allow the lights & lasers to work loose within the mount after time due to recoil...no matter how tight the light was screwed in.

Now you tell me. I have the same issue with the Viking mount. Plus, because it uses three screws that tighten up against the light itself, it scratches teh hell out of the flashlight body. I've been using a permanent black magic marker to hide these scratches.

[CarlosDJackal]

Jeff (My apologies for the faus pax),

Nice SBR and pics bro. I've been trying to make one of Pat's classes for the last couple of years. Maybe next year I'll finally be able to.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gunny,

What kind of a can are you looking to get? I just got my tax refund (I know, I'm a few months late) and I have been considering the YHM Phantom.


You guys stay safe!!

[SuicideHz]

No, that's Jeff. Zak took and is hosting the pics ;)

[CarlosDJackal]

No, that's Jeff. Zak took and is hosting the pics ;)

Oy!! Post corrected.

[MattC]

I recently started carrying my Noveske CQB in the trunk of my cruiser.

It has a VLTOR VIS II upper, Aimpoint M3 and Surefire M900.

I have an Eagle LE 6mag chest harness with it.

Last time I used it, we had a 6 hour standoff and when I was relieved by the state police tac team I got several complements on the gun :D

If I ever get some pictures taken I'll try and post them.

Stay safe,

-Matt

[molsen]

I use my LMT SBR as my home-defense gun.

It has:

-Factory LMT Lower, 10.5" Upper w/ cut-down FSB, and Bolt Carrier Group
-LaRue 10.0 rail system
-Noveske KX3 flash hider
-Magpul XT rail panels
-Tango Down vert foregrip
-Magpul MIAD pistol grip & Enhanced Trigger Guard
-Aimpoint ML2 w/ LaRue Aimpoint Mount
-LaRue Rear BUIS
-LMT Front BUIS
-KNS anti-roll pin set
-Specter Gear single point sling (no longer the VCAS pictured)
-Magpul CTR stock w/ rubber buttpad
-Surefire M600 Scout light
-Orion Arms Engraving on the lower (info for SBR per BATFE....name, city, state)


http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s206/molsen2295/LMTSBR.jpg

[welchtactical]

Gunny,
How do those Med-con CMMG uppers run? I'm a fan of the MLGS, and with that short a barrel, would help. I've heard here and there the CMMG barrels dont shot worth a damn, and then also heard the shoot great. What Laser Module you using? I'm thinking about using a visible one on my the SBR I'm gonna make when the paperwork comes in. I know they have limited use but I can think on a few for the designed use mine will have.

Anythere question. I dont have my SBR upper yet. Gonna wait till the paperwork clears to avoid trouble, but is it ok or a good idea to have several SBR uppers and one SBR lower, and still have non-SBR ARs around? As long as I didnt mount the SBR uppers on any of the none SBR lower {which I wouldnt}.

[the1911fan]

Ask Gary Fadden..owner of Al Mar knives about using a NFA rifle for self defense...specifically in Fairfax County VA

[CarlosDJackal]

Ask Gary Fadden..owner of Al Mar knives about using a NFA rifle for self defense...specifically in Fairfax County VA

Your post is about as informative as Rosie O'Donut!! Could you please be a bit more specific?

[KDG]

Your post is about as informative as Rosie O'Donut!! Could you please be a bit more specific?

In that incedent, while driving with his girlfriend, he ended up being chased by some armed biker gang members in a pick up truck who thought they saw him mess with another member who was riding on a bike.

They chased him down.

He just so happened to have a fully automatic Ruger 223 with him.

Fearing for his life he went full auto on one of the men who was charging at him.....droping him like a rock and killing him.

He was charged with 1st degree murder.

The point was since he used a full auto weapon it went to a full grand jury trial, and later he said he would never use one again for defense for if he used any other ' regular rifle' it may not have even gone to trial and just have been simple self defense.

If you do a google search with his name...the articles will show.

ken

That being said, I want a full auto damnit

[the1911fan]

Your post is about as informative as Rosie O'Donut!! Could you please be a bit more specific?


As you wish

http://www.davehayes.org/2006/02/10/the-gary-fadden-incident/

[Don Robison]

This is probably one of the most relevant parts of the article about the incident. It's on page three.

"The prosecutor made such a show of waving the machine gun that the judge made a point of instructing the jury that the death weapon had nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not the shooting was self-defense. The jury learned that Gary purchased the AC-556 personally and that it was perfectly legal to possess the weapon."

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_168_28/ai_112685749/pg_1

[gunny]

Gunny,
How do those Med-con CMMG uppers run? I'm a fan of the MLGS, and with that short a barrel, would help. I've heard here and there the CMMG barrels dont shot worth a damn, and then also heard the shoot great. What Laser Module you using? I'm thinking about using a visible one on my the SBR I'm gonna make when the paperwork comes in. I know they have limited use but I can think on a few for the designed use mine will have.

Anythere question. I dont have my SBR upper yet. Gonna wait till the paperwork clears to avoid trouble, but is it ok or a good idea to have several SBR uppers and one SBR lower, and still have non-SBR ARs around? As long as I didnt mount the SBR uppers on any of the none SBR lower {which I wouldnt}.

I'm a big fan of CMMG since buying one a few months back. The medcon upper is great & is accurate as heck. Even for a CL short barrel. CMMG makes a good barrel & I think they're the best AR's going right now. The laser is an Insight Technologies CVL & it'll run you almost the price of that upper I have. It works great in low light & indoors & for freaking out the mope you're painting it with.

You can have as many SBR uppers as you want. You can have non-NFA AR's. Just don't have a non-registered SBR lower sitting around with no 16"> upper to put on it. It doesn't matter if you never intended to mount the short uppers on the non-SBR lower. Never place a short upper on a non-registered SBR lower or have an unassigned, non-registered SBR lower lying around with SBR uppers.

[CarlosDJackal]

As you wish

http://www.davehayes.org/2006/02/10/the-gary-fadden-incident/

Thank you!! The only information out of that article that has any relevance to this thread may be:

You and I know that Class III holders are the ultimate “card carrying good guys and gals.” That particular card says they have been investigated for six months by the Federal government and been found trustworthy to possess machine guns. Unfortunately, most of the public in the jury pool, and most politically motivated prosecutors, don’t know that. Every self-defense shooting I’ve run across with a Class III weapon, however justified, has at the very least ended with the shooter facing a grand jury. Asked what he thinks would have happened if he’d shot Hamilton with a Remington 870 Wingmaster instead, Fadden replies with certainty, “I would have gone home that night. I’ve told dozens of people since, ‘Do not use a Class III weapon for personal defense.”‘ Today, the guns Gary is likely to have in his car have neutral images: an M-1 .30 carbine, and a 10mm Glock 20 pistol.

I don't know about anyone else, but if I were to choose what tool is most appropriate for the situation based on the possibility of facing grand jury, then maybe I would not bother owning ANY firearms at all. Whether or not Mr. Fadden would have faced a Grand Jury had he used a Remington 870 is nothing more than pure speculation. This is because he DID NOT use an 870. Any scumbag anti-gun lawyer can put a negative spin on any type of firearm that he should choose. There have been individuals who were criminally prosecuted (as in a jury trial) for using a 5-shot revolver in what was clearly self-defense.

FWIW, I have attended Massad Ayoob's Judicious Use of Lethal Force (about 6 years ago) and have taken a lot of his lessons to heart. But that does not mean that I agree with everything he said (he did mention this case in that class). By the time I actually deploy my SBR, whether or not I might have to face a grand jury will be the least of my worries. JM2CW.

[welchtactical]

I think the use of a SBR in self defense would probably be looked at alot differently that full auto use. Dumping a half mag into someone on auto probably would be looked at as not giving the suspect the chance to survive being shot. There is always the chance of a round missing it's target and hitting something or someone that does need to be shot. With an SBR you could always argue that you used it due to a lower MV, it was less likely to kill the suspect, just stop them. Then you'd have to explain why to double tapped them 4 times:D .

[KDG]

The situation Fadden was in was not typical.

Most likely most of us who would be in a similar situation or any confrontation outside of being at home or place of business, would be carrying hand guns (at least in my state).

How often would you be in your car carrying a full auto when something like that occured?)

Concealed carry permits allow for handguns, not AR15's, SBR's, full auto's or any rifle to be carried unless on the way to and from either hunting, a range, or gunshop. ( although I do know open carry is legal in many states on the books, it doesn't really fly to well with the public or LE)

So if a legally owned SBR, or a full auto is used to protect ones home and family, I would think the courts and public would view it in a much more favorable way. Just my speculation of course.

Ken

[Robb Jensen]

A 'good shooting' is a 'good shooting' regardless if you used a Ruger 22/45 or an AC130.

If you have no justification for 'deadly force'....................what kind of weapon, caliber, trigger pull weight, sun spots, do you eat meat? etc. may come up.

[SuicideHz]

The situation Fadden was in was not typical.

Most likely most of us who would be in a similar situation or any confrontation outside of being at home or place of business, would be carrying hand guns (at least in my state).

How often would you be in your car carrying a full auto when something like that occured?)

Concealed carry permits allow for handguns, not AR15's, SBR's, full auto's or any rifle to be carried unless on the way to and from either hunting, a range, or gunshop. ( although I do know open carry is legal in many states on the books, it doesn't really fly to well with the public or LE)

So if a legally owned SBR, or a full auto is used to protect ones home and family, I would think the courts and public would view it in a much more favorable way. Just my speculation of course.

Ken

How do you know what my concealed carry permit allows for?

I think I know of another member here who, in their state, carries a suppressed SBR in the backseat. It might have been a joke though...

[bradb55]

In are gun safety course for the concealed carry permit, they said we could carry a bazooka as long as it was concealed and I wasn't in a bank, bar, or church. :D

[Robb Jensen]

How do you know what my concealed carry permit allows for?

See my post above. If lethal force is required to protect life, permits don't matter.

[KDG]

How do you know what my concealed carry permit allows for?

Thats a good question, and I ASSumed it was a handgun permit.

So I looked at my ccw permit and it says license to carry firearms.

Then I looked up Pennsylvania firearm code.

And here is the definition:

Firearm."
Any pistol or revolver with a barrel length less than 15 inches, any shotgun with a barrel length less than 18 inches or any rifle with a barrel length less than 16 inches, or any pistol, revolver, rifle or shotgun with an overall length of less than 26 inches. The barrel length of a firearm shall be determined by measuring from the muzzle of the barrel to the face of the closed action, bolt or cylinder, whichever is applicable."

SO I stand corrected.

Ken

[SuicideHz]

See my post above. If lethal force is required to protect life, permits don't matter.

Yeah, if a shoot is justified then it's justified but if you can't legally carry the gun you use, then you couldn't legally kill someone and you will face a wrongful death suit that you WILL lose.

[Robb Jensen]

Yeah, if a shoot is justified then it's justified but if you can't legally carry the gun you use, then you couldn't legally kill someone and you will face a wrongful death suit that you WILL lose.

If the shoot is justified (deadly force was needed) and you were carrying illegally, in criminal court the most they could charge you with would be carrying concealed without a permit (usually a misdemeanor). In Civil court the bad guys wife, mom, dad, sister, brother or whatever could sue you with wrongful death.

[ashooter]

If the shoot is justified (deadly force was needed) and you were carrying illegally, in criminal court the most they could charge you with would be carrying concealed without a permit (usually a misdemeanor). In Civil court the bad guys wife, mom, dad, sister, brother or whatever could sue you with wrongful death.


Yeah, but at least you're alive.

;)

[Robb Jensen]

Yeah, but at least you're alive.

;)

I think you missed my point. I wasn't advocating against carrying a gun (via permit or not). I had a gun with me almost 100% of the time long before VA became a 'shall issue' state.

If I ever use any firearm in defense of my life (or loved ones) I fully expect to get charged with something (even bullshit charges). This is a good reason to have a business card from a bail bondsman and a good defense attorney in your wallet.

[gunny]

A 'good shooting' is a 'good shooting' regardless if you used a Ruger 22/45 or an AC130.

If you have no justification for 'deadly force'....................what kind of weapon, caliber, trigger pull weight, sun spots, do you eat meat? etc. may come up.

Exactly...end of argument. There will always be messed up prosecutors wanting to charge folks with crimes when they haven't committed one anyway, but where I live deadly force is justified & if the force is consistent with the use of force continuim, then you're g2g regardless what weapon type is used.

[Don Robison]

In are gun safety course for the concealed carry permit, they said we could carry a bazooka as long as it was concealed and I wasn't in a bank, bar, or church. :D


Not sure who did your class, but they need to brush up on their understanding of state law if they are going to teach.. Banks and churches aren't on the prohibited places list. Machineguns are specified as not being covered with a CCW license. It would probably be a judgment call on the other NFA items since they aren't specifically prohibited, but they also aren't specifically listed as acceptable concealable weapons under the permit.


http://www.flsenate.gov/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0790/SEC06.HTM&Title=-%3E2006-%3ECh0790-%3ESection%2006#0790.06


"790.06 License to carry concealed weapon or firearm.--

(1) The Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services is authorized to issue licenses to carry concealed weapons or concealed firearms to persons qualified as provided in this section. Each such license must bear a color photograph of the licensee. For the purposes of this section, concealed weapons or concealed firearms are defined as a handgun, electronic weapon or device, tear gas gun, knife, or billie, but the term does not include a machine gun as defined in s. 790.001(9)."



http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/weapons/possession.html


"Possession Restrictions

The following is a list of places where you are restricted from carrying a weapon or firearm even if you have a license. Please note that this is a simplified list. The places marked by an asterisk (*) may have exceptions or additional restrictions. See Section 790.06 (12), Florida Statutes for a complete listing.

o any place of nuisance as defined in s. 823.05
o any police, sheriff, or highway patrol station
o any detention facility, prison, or jail; any courthouse
o any courtroom*
o any polling place
o any meeting of the governing body of a county, public school district, municipality, or special district
o any meeting of the Legislature or a committee thereof
o any school, college, or professional athletic event not related to firearms
o any school administration building
o any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption*
o any elementary or secondary school facility
o any area technical center
o any college or university facility*
o inside the passenger terminal and sterile area of any airport*
o any place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law"

[MattC]

I think the use of a SBR in self defense would probably be looked at alot differently that full auto use. Dumping a half mag into someone on auto probably would be looked at as not giving the suspect the chance to survive being shot.


Who the hell ever said I have to give the SOB who just tried to kill me the "chance to survive"? As has already been stated; if deadly force is authorized then it doesn't matter what form it takes. If you shoot them or run them over with your car makes no difference.

Stay safe,

Matt

[KDG]

In my original post, what I was trying to point out was that most of us that have carry permits ( typically ) carry handguns when out and about in public, not machine guns, sbrs. cut off shotguns hidden under a long coat, hand grenades or whatever unusual weapon besides a handgun.

I was just saying that what happened to Fadden would not normally occur as how often do you run around in public carrying a machine gun as an everyday carry.

Sorry to the original poster that this got off topic about what to use for home defense, which I then say anything goes, buts it's a good discussion.

Ken

[CarlosDJackal]

Yeah, if a shoot is justified then it's justified but if you can't legally carry the gun you use, then you couldn't legally kill someone and you will face a wrongful death suit that you WILL lose.

This doesn't make a lick of sense!! Whether or not you are involved in a Justifiable Homicide has nothing to do whether or not you can legally carry or even possess the tool that you used in the act. :confused:

Can we get back to the original topic of this thread please?

[SuicideHz]

Yes. I have an SBR with a Colt RO635 upper and suppressor but until I start loading some good reliable HP for it, it won't sit at my bedside.

[Derek_Connor]

I was wondering how many NFA stamp holders have also relegated their registered guns for use in self-defense or duty/emergency? If so, how does your setup look like?




Suppressed 12.5 sits by the bed, pic from re-confirming zero last weekend:

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/5100/dsc07134largenu5.jpg

[CarlosDJackal]

Derek,

Sweet setup!! What kind of can is that and did you experience and POI shift with it?