NFA Gross sales

[45&223]

Is there any way to determine just how much sales tax revenue my state is losing by not allowing SBR/SBS to be owned?

I have looked and can't find anything specific to NFA sales. For instnace, gross sales of NFA in Oregon, they dont have sales tax but I can do the math.

I am trying to get the law repealed, showing tax revenue from sales as a way to support social programs that have been cut may be a toe in. I know, better men than me have tried, but I cant do nothing.

Thanks

[Raven Armament]

Seeing as how transfers are private tax issues and documents, I'm not sure it would be available to the public.

[Iraqgunz]

Maybe you could use the official yearly reports that show the amount NFA weapons owned and registered in various states. Then find a state that has a similar size/ population and use it as a comparison.

Just a thought.


Is there any way to determine just how much sales tax revenue my state is losing by not allowing SBR/SBS to be owned?

I have looked and can't find anything specific to NFA sales. For instnace, gross sales of NFA in Oregon, they dont have sales tax but I can do the math.

I am trying to get the law repealed, showing tax revenue from sales as a way to support social programs that have been cut may be a toe in. I know, better men than me have tried, but I cant do nothing.

Thanks

[Robb Jensen]

A FOIA request might net you raw numbers for registered SBRs, SBSs, Machineguns, AOWs and DDs. I don't know if they would break it down into the 50 states or not.

[Raven Armament]

My understanding is everything on the tax documents are private and not to be released to the public, FOIA request or not. The information is non-selective, ie you can't pick and choose. You simply can't get it.

[Robb Jensen]

My understanding is everything on the tax documents are private and not to be released to the public, FOIA request or not. The information is non-selective, ie you can't pick and choose. You simply can't get it.

Excise taxes are paid on Title 1 firearms yet ATF still can give you stats on how many firearms each manufacturer has made per year.

The way I understand it a FOIA request couldn't be answered for specifics example: If my neighbor wanted to know what NFA stuff I owned and submitted to ATF a FOIA request asking it wouldn't be answered.
But if my neighbor asked on a FOIA request how many total SBRs are in the National registry from Jan 1st 2010 to Dec 31st 2010 it could be answered. It doesn't give away who has what or whatever but just give you the number.

[Iraqgunz]

Robb,

I am pretty sure those numbers are available. I remember seeing them posted in Small Arms Review if I am not mistaken.


A FOIA request might net you raw numbers for registered SBRs, SBSs, Machineguns, AOWs and DDs. I don't know if they would break it down into the 50 states or not.

[RyanB]

Registrations by state both new and total are tabulated and released to the public, although I cannot recall where that information is published.

[Coleslaw]

I believe Dan runs it in SAR every year. You could check with them on Monday and see if they can point you in the right directions.

[kmrtnsn]

I'm confused, is the OP talking about potential lost revenue on the $200.00 NFA tax stamp? That tax is federal, even if his state allowed NFA weapons the net gain in tax revenue to the state is nil.

[45&223]

Thanks for the replies thus far, I'm not sure what some of these acronyms are so if you can expound or provide a link I would appreciate it.

In Washington State we do not pay income, we pay sales tax. So if you buy a $1000 SBR, you are gonna pay an extra $100 in sales tax. (it's not 10%, but close to it)

State sales tax revenue is used for a variety of crap. Like most states, we are having some budget issues and several social programs were cut or reduced for 2011. By allowing residents to buy SBR/SBS and parts/pieces for each, I beleive that will be alot of sales tax on each of those sales.

I am trying to figure out a way to best determine what that amount might be, so our friends in the state senate and legislature will perk up and listen. If the amount can fund something like 'housing for gay transients that want to be married and dont eat meat' then we might actually have a chance.

I have one Senator on board but I need some data. That's all.

[Scorpion]

Which acronyms were you unsure of?

AOW = Any Other Weapon
DD = Destructive Device
FOIA = Freedom of Information Act

The rest have been referenced in this thread.

[45&223]

FOIA - thx.

[kmrtnsn]

So how may NFA weapons would pop up a year if the law changed? 1,000? 10,000?

Hypothetically speaking, 1,000 units at $2,000 at 8% or even 10,000 units at $2,000 at 8% is not a lot of sales tax revenue when there are easier ways to generate the money.

I don't think the dollars are a strong argument.

[45&223]

"So how may NFA weapons would pop up a year if the law changed? 1,000? 10,000?"


I don't know, that's the point of this thread, I'm trying to get an estimate of the numbers of complete SBR/SBS and barrels, and lowers and potentially any other parts or pieces that people might buy to equip those new weapons.

It may not be much at all, it may be significant. Either way, I think any NEW sales tax revenue is a good thing.

I was hoping to get some information that would only provide an estimate, not an exact figure. I will be talking with the senator on Tuesday and was hoping to provide something.

Thanks.

[Iraqgunz]

Here is something I found. It's not much, but the numbers are huge across the board. http://www.atf.gov/statistics/

Having said that. I would be leery of any politician who would support the measure based solely on revenue considerations. I would also be making a point about being law abiding citizens and the fact that NFA owners are responsible people.

I would also point out the absurdity of Washingtons' suppressor law which allows ownership, but not being able to discharge rounds through it within the state.

[Robb Jensen]

Here is something I found. It's not much, but the numbers are huge across the board. http://www.atf.gov/statistics/

Having said that. I would be leery of any politician who would support the measure based solely on revenue considerations. I would also be making a point about being law abiding citizens and the fact that NFA owners are responsible people.

I would also point out the absurdity of Washingtons' suppressor law which allows ownership, but not being able to discharge rounds through it within the state.

Thanks. Good link. I just looked at the Firearm Trace Data for VA for 2009. It shows 1 silencer traced. I have a friend have one that was stolen and recovered in VA but it was damaged. I'll bet that was the 1 silencer.

Talk about absurd laws here in VA you can own an automatic knife but can't possess it outside your home. Benchmade can mail you one but you can't buy one in a store in VA and take it home.

[chadbag]

Here is something I found. It's not much, but the numbers are huge across the board. http://www.atf.gov/statistics/



That is an interesting link. In 5 years the number of NFA forms more than doubled and the number of NFA firearms "processed" went up over 5 times. I don't know what that all means but since SBRs are one of the only NFA firearms that can be made still (in terms of volume I would guess SBRs are much bigger than AOW) and due to prices and closed markets on machine guns I would assume a low percentage of MGs in those figures, it seems that SBRs are getting around. The word is getting out on them. (I assume that suppressors are also included in those numbers of course and that may be a contributing factor).

For the OP, those numbers could be of a little help as it shows the gross number of NFA transactions per year, a high percentage of which are probably SBRs. You could come up with some sort of stat based on firearm ownership in WA compared to the rest of the (NFA allowing country) and make a reasonable assumption that WA's share of the NFA market would be somewhat comparable to their share of the firearms market. In other words, NFA weapons would probably be owned at the same percentage against the country as a whole as regular firearms. If WA accounts for 5% say of all firearms sold in the country (only counting NFA friendly states), then a reasonable assumption is that somewhere around 3-7% of NFA transfers would happen in WA as well. As a ballpark figure. FOIA etc could probably get you some support for this BAA (big *ss assumption) on my part, or not. I do realize I have no facts to support my case.

[Iraqgunz]

In Arizona you can freely buy and carry auto knives with a concealed weapons permit (which is what we have here). I typically carry a Microtech Ultratech S/E or a Benchmade AFO.


Thanks. Good link. I just looked at the Firearm Trace Data for VA for 2009. It shows 1 silencer traced. I have a friend have one that was stolen and recovered in VA but it was damaged. I'll bet that was the 1 silencer.

Talk about absurd laws here in VA you can own an automatic knife but can't possess it outside your home. Benchmade can mail you one but you can't buy one in a store in VA and take it home.

[Iraqgunz]

Chad,

Yeah, if I were to make an educated guess I would say that a majority of those sales are suppressors, SBR's, SBS's and AOW's with suppressors and SBR's leading the pack.


That is an interesting link. In 5 years the number of NFA forms more than doubled and the number of NFA firearms "processed" went up over 5 times. I don't know what that all means but since SBRs are one of the only NFA firearms that can be made still (in terms of volume I would guess SBRs are much bigger than AOW) and due to prices and closed markets on machine guns I would assume a low percentage of MGs in those figures, it seems that SBRs are getting around. The word is getting out on them. (I assume that suppressors are also included in those numbers of course and that may be a contributing factor).

For the OP, those numbers could be of a little help as it shows the gross number of NFA transactions per year, a high percentage of which are probably SBRs. You could come up with some sort of stat based on firearm ownership in WA compared to the rest of the (NFA allowing country) and make a reasonable assumption that WA's share of the NFA market would be somewhat comparable to their share of the firearms market. In other words, NFA weapons would probably be owned at the same percentage against the country as a whole as regular firearms. If WA accounts for 5% say of all firearms sold in the country (only counting NFA friendly states), then a reasonable assumption is that somewhere around 3-7% of NFA transfers would happen in WA as well. As a ballpark figure. FOIA etc could probably get you some support for this BAA (big *ss assumption) on my part, or not. I do realize I have no facts to support my case.

[kmrtnsn]

"So how may NFA weapons would pop up a year if the law changed? 1,000? 10,000?"


I don't know, that's the point of this thread, I'm trying to get an estimate of the numbers of complete SBR/SBS and barrels, and lowers and potentially any other parts or pieces that people might buy to equip those new weapons.

It may not be much at all, it may be significant. Either way, I think any NEW sales tax revenue is a good thing.

I was hoping to get some information that would only provide an estimate, not an exact figure. I will be talking with the senator on Tuesday and was hoping to provide something.

Thanks.

Understood. I am just saying that making tax revenue on what would be a statistically insignificant amount revenue gain the crux of your argument may not be the best way to go and that you may want to buttress your case with other, more persuasive arguments.

[Raven Armament]

And that's hard to judge since those figures include all tax free forms such as F2, F3, F5 as well.

[45&223]

This isn't the only argument, it is a portion. Tax revenue being one prong.

Overall sales for small businesses in this state is another. All of the normal arguments listed by iraqgunz.

The Senator in question is a 2A advovate, the "new" arguments may give revisiting the topic some legs with fence riders. I don't expect staunch gun control advocates to dance in the streets. There might be some that wouldn't normally lend their voices to this, that will if there is a side benefit.

I am not so optimistic that I beleive this is a magic pill. It's an incentive that might nelp toward the end goal of allowing law abiding citizens to own and possess what they should be allowed to possess already.

I suck at math, anybody want to try and come up with a Gross sales amount for Washington based ont eh information that Iraqgunz provided?

If not, thanks for the help thus far.