View Full Version : FFL Dealer Fees
To all you FFL dealers out there. I was wondering what it costs you per transaction for you to call into NICS and all that stuff. For example how much do you charge and why do you charge that much for a person who buys from another FFL out of state to do the background check.
Around where I live, most dealers carry crap and only low end (DPMS, Olympic, etc) and then they charge $45 - $55 per transaction if you have a firearms shipped to them and transferred to you. I know it is just a profit for them, but really how much profit. 100%? 1000% or what?
I was wondering what it costs you per transaction for you to call into NICS and all that stuff. NOTHING.
So what is this all about? Just bitching? If you don't like what you are charged, seek out another FFL. If you will PM where you live, I will give you a list of FFLs to contact.
See we are not all FFL nazis.
I've got a local pawn shop that does it for free. The gun shop I do most of my shopping charges pretty high, $35 or 5% whichever is higher if memory serves.
To me, as a non dealer, it's horse shit to expect a service for free. $50 is a little excessive for a simple transfer though.
Robb Jensen
01-02-11, 09:59
$30 for transfers and $2 for the Virginia State Police/NICS check.
We don't do NFA transfers just yet since we don't have much storage space.
The average that I've seen in my area is around 40-45$. Our preferred FFL only charges 20 (and I'm sure he more than makes up in volume what the other guys are doing.)
$20 is the norm around here.
My dealer friends charge $20.
Whootsinator
01-02-11, 10:19
Average around here is $25 or so. Two of them do it for $15 though.
Here, behind enemy lines, Kaliforniastan, San Diego. I have run into transfer rates as high as $75 in addition to $25 for the background check. The shop I use now charges $35 plus the background check fee of $25. Like I said, behind enemy lines.
Mike
$20 is pretty common in the Houston area.
I happily pay that, I'm usually there an hour BS'n so I consider that a bargain...
While I have a friend that does it for me for nothing, he charges walkins and my friends and family I steer to him $15 on the first item and $5 per additional item on the same transaction. If you don't have a Utah CCW then Utah charges $7.50 (I believe, don't quote me) for the BC check (I believe in Utah that they are all run through the state and the state uses NICS for handguns and does their own thing on rifles but that could be outdated info). So he will collect that fee as well if you don't have a Utah CCW.
Pretty good deal all around.
Some of the places in NJ are nuts.
The Fire Arms Guild changers $95!!!!!! To make a phone call? Excuse me?
Most charge about $50 to $65 :( Tho they do give you a break if you get two at a time, they will do the second one for about $20
Quiet-Matt
01-02-11, 13:49
I pay $20 for a transfer, but the norm arround here is 30-35
To all you FFL dealers out there. I was wondering what it costs you per transaction for you to call into NICS and all that stuff. For example how much do you charge and why do you charge that much for a person who buys from another FFL out of state to do the background check.
Around where I live, most dealers carry crap and only low end (DPMS, Olympic, etc) and then they charge $45 - $55 per transaction if you have a firearms shipped to them and transferred to you. I know it is just a profit for them, but really how much profit. 100%? 1000% or what?
FDLE charges me $5.00, I charge $25.00. Most of that is because I have to store that 4473 for 20 years.
Also that is background check/storage of 4473 fee. I don't do transfers anymore. After seeing Cav Arms get shut down for doing transfers to a CA resident who had a AZ state ID and PASSED a NICS check, it simply isn't worth $25 (or any amount of cash) to risk my livelihood to act as a receiving agent for an unknown buyer. All it would take is for an illegal to get a valid state ID (which they do easily) and I have sold to an unqualified buyer and can lose my business and my rights. No thanks.
And finally there is a difference between a transfer and a some guy who thinks he's entitled to FFL prices.
If a person buys a used gun from a guy in GA and wants a FL dealer to receive it, THAT is a transfer. He negotiated the deal and doesn't need to be a FFL to qualify for the price being paid. Furthermore if he was a resident of the same state, he wouldn't need a FFL to be involved at all. Back when I did "transfers" I would receive such a gun for $25.00 out the door. I only made $20 in pocket but really didn't consider myself entitled to anything more than that as it wasn't "my deal" and I was offering a service.
What is NOT a transfer is a guy calling up one of my wholesalers and wanting to buy at FFL prices and only pay a $25, 10% markup, flat fee, etc. That is more correctly a special order, not a transfer. The fact that he is making the phone call and willing to put it on his credit card does NOTHING to entitle him to dealer pricing. If he wants to buy at FFL prices, let him pull a FFL like I did. I usually charge about 20% (half way between my cost and retail) and if somebody doesn't think that is fair then they should really pull a FFL and see how much fun it is to try and stay in business on 20% markups.
I also started a Buyers Club to reward true volume buyers. I used a concept similar to Sam's Club where you pay a membership and get "at cost" transactions. $500 for 3 years or $300 for 1 year lets you buy as many guns, gear and ammo as you want at my cost. Satisfies everyone but the one gun a year buyers who want to buy as cheaply as possible and couldn't give a damn if you make a profit or not so long as they get it as cheap as possible.
There is a list of FFL dealers who do transfers for cheap at www.gunbroker.com. Probably there are a few in your area.
Robb Jensen
01-02-11, 14:04
Some of the places in NJ are nuts.
The Fire Arms Guild changers $95!!!!!! To make a phone call? Excuse me?
Most charge about $50 to $65 :( Tho they do give you a break if you get two at a time, they will do the second one for about $20
$95 is a rip off.
We charge a flat $30 +$2 for the VSP(NICS check) no sales tax as it's a service and isn't taxable.
With that said it's quite a bit more than a phone call. Here's the description of a 'transfer' from the dealers side of the customer counter.
1. Dealer has to communicate with you via phone or email to set up the transfer.
2. Then communicate with the seller or other FFL and then fax or mail a copy of his FFL to that person sending the firearm.
3. Receive the packaged firearm.
4. Unpack the firearm. Log the firearm into the bound book.
5. Call/email you that it's ready for pick up. Store it until you get there (sometimes months in our shop).
6. Then when you get there to pick it up take the 5-10min to fill our the forms with you. Then submit your info for the NICS approval. If you've purchased or transferred more than 1 handgun within the 5 business days of his shop he has to submit a form 3310 and mail it to ATF.
7. Then log the firearm out of the bound book after it's been transferred to you.
8. He has to store that 4473 (and possibly state form) until he goes out of business. This is so that in the event your firearm ends up being 'traced' because it was found at a crime scene he has to show who it was transferred to. He's allotted 24hrs to provide this data to ATF when a firearm is traced.
So in essence the amount of time involved for a transfer is likely 30min to 1hr depending on how many times you've called/emailed asking if you're transfer is there and ready for pick up because you saw it was delivered 5min ago by UPS/FedEx. My boss doesn't even open transfers until after we close for the day or much later in the day because he's super busy receiving/ordering/selling the stuff we carry in the store. Transfers are available for pick-up at the opening of the next business day after they've been delivered to our shop.
A gun shop local to me charges $50 dollars for a transfer if it is an item that they don't stock on their website(which lists about every black rifle known to man), and $100 if they do stock it. (I can only assume that the $100 charge is a jab for not buying the item from them. They want $1900 for a 6940 colt).This is before the tax that they have to charge per WA state law. Needless to say, I stopped giving them my business and drive a little bit further to pick up items for a smaller fee, shipped from vendors who support this site.
Robb Jensen
01-02-11, 14:22
A gun shop local to me charges $50 dollars for a transfer if it is an item that they don't stock on their website(which lists about every black rifle known to man), and $100 if they do stock it. (I can only assume that the $100 charge is a jab for not buying the item from them. They want $1900 for a 6940 colt).This is before the tax that they have to charge per WA state law. Needless to say, I stopped giving them my business and drive a little bit further to pick up items for a smaller fee, shipped from vendors who support this site.
Good on you.
Dealers like that give all a bad name.
For example how much do you charge
No Charge for existing customers.
The FFL in my area charged $50, then raised it to $75. They are bastards for that.
It is 100% profit. Even easier if it is a long gun. They just have you fill out the 4473, call it in, and then your way...
$95 is a rip off.
Tell me about it...
On the list of FFLs on GunBroker.com they are listed as $50+$15 but when I called them two weeks ago they said $95 on the phone to me. Even the shop I like the most charges $65, and that is what I paid when I had a Noveske lowers transferred about a year ago.
I want to order a couple lowers to have on hand when I am ready to build my next project but I can't bring myself to pay even $65 for a transfer... it kills me lol.
Some of the places in NJ are nuts.
The Fire Arms Guild changers $95!!!!!! To make a phone call? Excuse me?
But it isn't to make a phone call, usually it is to use their FFL to qualify for FFL ONLY pricing. It amazes me that just because someone has an internet connection or a copy of SGN that they feel they are now entitled the same pricing I pay to qualify for.
$95 is a rip off.
We charge a flat $30 +$2 for the VSP(NICS check) no sales tax as it's a service and isn't taxable.
What if is a $1,000 rifle? $95 isn't even 10% hardly a ripoff in my book. If a rifle dealer prices at $1000 and is supposed to retail for $1400 it seems to me that $1095 would actually be quite a deal.
Now if the buyer is getting a used gun from a private seller at market value, then I agree $95 is a bit steep to receive the gun for them.
Problem is your average internet buyer now believes the wholesale FFL dealer pricing he sees on the internet is retail and he is entitled to that price plus some token "service fee." I have had guys who expect to order things like Barret M82s for $7,700 plus $25 to transfer.
I think that would constitute a .5 % profit.
:laugh:
To all you FFL dealers out there. I was wondering what it costs you per transaction for you to call into NICS and all that stuff. For example how much do you charge and why do you charge that much for a person who buys from another FFL out of state to do the background check.
Around where I live, most dealers carry crap and only low end (DPMS, Olympic, etc) and then they charge $45 - $55 per transaction if you have a firearms shipped to them and transferred to you. I know it is just a profit for them, but really how much profit. 100%? 1000% or what?
We charge $20 and for some regular customers (or people that help me out a lot), I charge NOTHING.
You have to realize the following:
1. FFL dealers are a dying breed.
2. FFL dealers typically find it offensive if you do a transfer (not me, but is the way it is).
3. Profit on a firearm is typically around $40-$100 so they are going to attempt to get that money out of you one way or another.
I also know that in some parts of the country, FFL dealers conspire with other local dealers to NOT do ANY transfers. This forces the customer to either drive long distances or have to pay the dealers price on the gun.
My fellow FFL dealers are typically very poor businessmen. They don't realize that if you screw a guy on a transfer, you are most likely never going to see them again.
If you find a local FFL that charges you a fair fee on transfers, be nice to them and maybe throw them a bone once in awhile (as they are not the norm these days).
C4
The FFL in my area charged $50, then raised it to $75. They are bastards for that.
It is 100% profit. Even easier if it is a long gun. They just have you fill out the 4473, call it in, and then your way...
You left out quite a bit. You have to also BECOME a FFL complete with licensing fees, code and zoning requirements, occupational permits and related operating costs.
And if that $50 fee is all they are making to transfer a $1000 rifle from a wholesaler they are now making a 5% profit. Now I don't know many businesses that can stay in operation clearing a whopping 5%.
But tell ya what, if it is such a get rich quick scheme, then by all means win the game and pull a FFL. You can do $5 transfers on ANY GUN and you will run all the "greedy bastard" FFLs out of business and own the market.
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/how-to/become-an-ffl.html
Millions await you. Don't delay. I'll even help you with the application process when it comes to some of the tricky questions.
Two thoughts for you guys that do a transfers.
Check out local pawn shops. They typically charge $20 and are THRILLED to have you in their shop looking around.
Ask around at your local gun clubs. Many times, the club has a "dealer" that will do it for free for members and $10-20 for none members.
C4
I charge $15, some shops around here go as high as $75. And Grant is right, they do this to make their money and (them some) and as a basic "screw you if you order it cheaper online" type attitude. I'm a small time dealer that doesn't get the better discounts that some big guys get, I'm fact they can sell them at retail scheaper than my cost is sometimes. I don't hold that against my customers, they are in the same boat as me. I try to help and save money where I can. What I lack in price I make up in service.....
Robb Jensen
01-02-11, 21:50
What if is a $1,000 rifle? $95 isn't even 10% hardly a ripoff in my book. If a rifle dealer prices at $1000 and is supposed to retail for $1400 it seems to me that $1095 would actually be quite a deal.
Now if the buyer is getting a used gun from a private seller at market value, then I agree $95 is a bit steep to receive the gun for them.
Problem is your average internet buyer now believes the wholesale FFL dealer pricing he sees on the internet is retail and he is entitled to that price plus some token "service fee." I have had guys who expect to order things like Barret M82s for $7,700 plus $25 to transfer.
I think that would constitute a .5 % profit.
:laugh:
We charge $30 +$2 for the VSP check regardless if it's a $1 gun or a $1,000,0000 gun.
What if the transferee inherited it? Why should they be hosed?
We make it up in service. If you transfer a gun through us it's your problem if it doesn't work, looks like shit (because it was misrepresented in the auction/sales thread) or whatever then it's on you ($30 to go back plus actual shipping). And we don't transfer the junk guns (modern but cheap/junk ass guns that are traced most often).
If you buy a gun from us new or used/consignment you receive a no charge-to-you ever repair/replacement/refund policy on it even if it requires shipping it somewhere. Only one company has ever charged us for repair (an AR company we no longer stock/carry, I'm surprised they aren't bankrupt buy now).
This is why we don't carry the cheap shit like Taurus, Lorcin, Hi-Point and all that crap. We lost way too much money sending broke ass shit back to the manufacturers sometimes up to 5 times to get them to work (meaning Beretta Tomcats and anything from Taurus).
What if is a $1,000 rifle? $95 isn't even 10% hardly a ripoff in my book.
...
I have had guys who expect to order things like Barret M82s for $7,700 plus $25 to transfer.
I think that would constitute a .5 % profit.
I don't mean to hammer on FFL dealers because I know it is not a very profitable field.
However, I would differ with the assertion about profit above. In the above examples, the dealer did not make an investment in the product. He did not purchase it, hold it in inventory and wait for a willing buyer to show up. If he had risked his capital, and he wants to make 10% or 15% or whatever markup, then great.
But if customer Billy Joe walks in and says, "I just sent $7700 to Barrett for a gun and I am looking for a local FFL to do the transfer for me," then I do not think it would be appropriate for the FFL to charge a 10% profit/markup or $770. In that case the dealer has not invested in the product and risked his capital. Of course the dealer has invested in his license, insurance, premises, knowledge, training, etc., and he will spend time on the transaction, so he is definitely due a reasonable fee.
It would be great if dealers could use the transaction as a marketing opportunity either to see something else, or at least to establish a relationship with the customer so that next time the customer has money to spend, he stops at that dealer first.
willowofwisp
01-02-11, 22:31
I found a nice LGS that i go to for my transfers, they charge 25$ and do pretty well on their end in terms of contacting a FFL and faxing their license copy.
I don't mind paying 25$ for a small service like that and normally i hang out and talk with the guys for at least a half hour having a few laughs.
We charge $30 +$2 for the VSP check regardless if it's a $1 gun or a $1,000,0000 gun.
What if the transferee inherited it? Why should they be hosed?
In that case, it's already his gun and he shouldn't be going through a FFL at all. It is not a sale, it is his already. He should have his property shipped to him directly.
And again, like I said, when I did "transfers" I did a flat rate $25 as well. The problem is a lot of people seem to want to do transfers from my wholesalers and they need a FFL to qualify for that FFL pricing.
Here is my rule of thumb I used.
If you were a resident of the state where the gun was purchased and you could buy directly without needing a FFL to qualify for the price then THAT is a transfer. This includes things like previously owned guns from private sellers and inventory from out of state gun dealers.
But if you lived in the same state and NEEDED a FFL to qualify for the price you wish to purchase at, in effect wishing to buy on my license, then that is NOT a transfer. That is some guy who thinks I am undeserving of a 20% profit for a special order (and I am perfectly willing to make the call myself) and thinks he should be able to buy any firearm at wholesale with a markup of no more than $25 for any gun he wants.
And if you don't own a pawn shop or aren't getting your primary income from an attached range that is a business plan for a Going Out Of Business Sale.
:laugh:
I don't mean to hammer on FFL dealers because I know it is not a very profitable field.
However, I would differ with the assertion about profit above. In the above examples, the dealer did not make an investment in the product. He did not purchase it, hold it in inventory and wait for a willing buyer to show up. If he had risked his capital, and he wants to make 10% or 15% or whatever markup, then great.
And you would be incorrect. He most certainly DID make an investment. That would be the licensing fees, operational costs and all other related expenses to BE a FFL.
Let me ask this question. If every buyer is entitled to dealer price + $25 simply because he calls my wholesaler instead of me, who in their right mind would be a FFL at all? $25 per gun is LESS than it costs me to buy guns when you factor in how much it costs to be a FFL.
It's really this simple. You take the cost required to operate as a FFL for a year then you divide it by your average number of guns sold. The difference is the amount of money you MUST CHARGE per transaction to break even and not make a single penny.
Now if you want to actually make a profit and be able to buy things like Happy Meals from McDonalds, live someplace besides the YMCA and other similar extravagances then you will need to charge even more. And given that you aren't selling something everyone needs every week that means your per item markup is gonna need to be much more than $25 or you will soon be out of business and working at McDonalds rather than eating there.
But if customer Billy Joe walks in and says, "I just sent $7700 to Barrett for a gun and I am looking for a local FFL to do the transfer for me," then I do not think it would be appropriate for the FFL to charge a 10% profit/markup or $770. In that case the dealer has not invested in the product and risked his capital. Of course the dealer has invested in his license, insurance, premises, knowledge, training, etc., and he will spend time on the transaction, so he is definitely due a reasonable fee.
But here is the problem, that $7700 is a dealer price which REQUIRES a FFL, that is why Billy Joe needs to order it on my FFL. Because the retail on that same gun is about $10,000 and the difference between the two prices is what allows a FFL to buy those important Happy Meals so he doesn't pass out dead phoning in your Barrett order.
So if Billy Joe wants that $7700 Barrett, he is gonna need to pull a FFL to qualify. Now were it me, my typical price is about halfway between dealer and retail so he'd be looking at somewhere around $8,600 to special order that same rifle. Otherwise he isn't ordering it on my FFL, and that is essentially what buyers are asking to do when they want to "transfer" a rifle to you.
Now if he bought it from a private seller and was getting a pre owned one for $7700. back when I did transfers I would have done it for $25 flat. Again, if he lived in the same state he COULD buy at that price in that instance without needing to be a FFL. Additionally if he ordered it from Fred's Gun Shop and paid $10,000 then I would have done it for the same $25, again he didn't need my FFL to get that deal.
It would be great if dealers could use the transaction as a marketing opportunity either to see something else, or at least to establish a relationship with the customer so that next time the customer has money to spend, he stops at that dealer first.
Works great if you have a pawn shop, attached range, etc. But if all you have are other guns with 20% markups they won't buy them either. Why should they when they can get ANY gun for dealer plus $25 like they did this time?
And again, this is why I started my Buyers Club program. If guys want to buy in significant volume I will give them great pricing options. Volume buyers keep me in business and I am gonna cater to them. At $500 for 3 years of "at cost" purchases, I have some guys who buy so many guns that I am making $25 (sometimes less) per gun. But unlike the usual guy looking for a "transfer" these guys are buying a lot of guns.
And here is where guys like Billy Joe are actually gonna make out well. For $500 he gets that Barrett for $8200.00 plus has an additional three years of "at cost" purchasing in front of him. The reality is NOBODY gets retail pricing and on things like Barrett rifles very few get 10%. And this is why so many FFLs constantly go out of business, especially those who think they will corner the market with cheap transfers. The volume simply doesn't exist to support them at $25 increments, and that is why I don't try and make that business model work.
But if I can get sufficient volume that I can charge less and remain in business, I will. But I'm not gonna cost cut my way to a career at McDonalds.
You'll have to excuse me now, I've recently purchased some cheese, dough and sauce and I'm gonna see if the local Pizzeria will "transfer" it into a Pizza for me for a flat fee or 10%.
:laugh:
Well it is a free market and dealers can charge whatever they want, and customers can accept it or ask another dealer for a better deal. About 10 yrs ago I asked a local dealer what he would charge to transfer a special order rifle that I was getting which cost me $8K. If he had bought the gun and was reselling it I would have expected to pay a 15% markup. But that was not the case as the special order was already placed and the gun was nearly finished. The dealer said he would handle the transfer for 5% of the value of the gun. Another dealer with a storefront did it for $25.
I used to routinely pay $25 for a transfer, but I never asked the dealer to transfer anything similar to items that he stocked. Now a friend does the transfers for free, so I am out of the market.
If a manufacturer were smart, IMO, they would quote retail to the public but wholesale to the dealer, so if I ordered a Barrett from Barrett like the customer in the post immediately above, they would charge me retail. Then due to cost savings, I would be incentivized to have my local dealer place the special order, because when he prices it midway between wholesale and retail, he makes money and I save money. Just IMO.
Another consideration that I find myself looking at is sales tax. If I buy a gun locally, I pay about 6.5% sales tax (depending on which town/city rate). But if I buy it from the internet and have it shipped in, there is no sales tax. As an example, a local shop would order me a Colt 6520 for $1060 plus 6.5% tax. I thought that was a fair price. But there was also one for sale on the internet, NIB of course, for $925 plus $25 shipping. My total was $950 but if I had paid the transfer fee of $25 the total would have been $975. Compare that to a total of about $1130 from the local dealer with tax added. No offense to local guys trying to make a living but simple economics told me which one to purchase. I buy a lot of stuff at the dealer who would have done the special order, so I don't feel bad about it.
Well it is a free market and dealers can charge whatever they want, and customers can accept it or ask another dealer for a better deal.
It most certainly is. And that makes things pretty self correcting. Charge too much and you won't be in business very long, don't charge enough and you won't be in business very long. My goal is only to explain that I charge what I need to remain in business, if it were possible to do so with only a $5 markup, that is all most dealers would charge or else they'd soon be out of business.
About 10 yrs ago I asked a local dealer what he would charge to transfer a special order rifle that I was getting which cost me $8K. If he had bought the gun and was reselling it I would have expected to pay a 15% markup. But that was not the case as the special order was already placed and the gun was nearly finished. The dealer said he would handle the transfer for 5% of the value of the gun. Another dealer with a storefront did it for $25.
Well you are either missing or avoiding the point I made. Did you need somebody who was a FFL to qualify for that $8k price? If it was a FFL "dealer price" then what you were doing was searching for a FFL who was willing to order it for you on THEIR license. And that is where the cost to use the license comes into play, that is the investment the FFL made even before you ordered the gun.
Now on the other hand, IF the $8k price was NOT a FFL dealer price, then 15% is pretty hefty on a rifle you have already paid a markup on. And in the days I did transfers, in that scenario I would have only charged you $25.
Now it is completely reasonable for you to pay $25 if you can find somebody willing to do it. If I could buy a house and find a realtor wiling to take only $25 as a commission (instead of the 3% or whatever it is these days) which would reduce the sellers "need to get price" by thousands I would too. But what I'm saying is the dealer who charges a 10-20% markup really isn't ripping you off if you are buying from wholesalers (which most internet buyers are these days).
I used to routinely pay $25 for a transfer, but I never asked the dealer to transfer anything similar to items that he stocked. Now a friend does the transfers for free, so I am out of the market.
Don't blame you.
If a manufacturer were smart, IMO, they would quote retail to the public but wholesale to the dealer, so if I ordered a Barrett from Barrett like the customer in the post immediately above, they would charge me retail. Then due to cost savings, I would be incentivized to have my local dealer place the special order, because when he prices it midway between wholesale and retail, he makes money and I save money. Just IMO.
And that is the way things are supposed to be. The reality is confidential dealer prices are neither confidential nor considered dealer only. Everyone with a copy of SGN or an internet connection knows what those prices are and they feel they are entitled to them.
In fact if you quote a gun for a retail price anywhere on any gun forum dozens of people will pounce on you and declare you to be a rip off artist looking to screw people. This is why I'm not a authorized dealer on any internet gun forum anymore, it's pointless. I could never effectively compete with the online wholesalers who are already out there and if I only charge $10 per gun I'm still higher by $10 and 99% if internet buyers always go with the cheapest price.
The only other option is to be a wholesaler myself but I'm just not willing to lay out that much cash for that much inventory, to say nothing of being in a position to do so even if I wanted to.
Another consideration that I find myself looking at is sales tax. If I buy a gun locally, I pay about 6.5% sales tax (depending on which town/city rate). But if I buy it from the internet and have it shipped in, there is no sales tax. As an example, a local shop would order me a Colt 6520 for $1060 plus 6.5% tax. I thought that was a fair price. But there was also one for sale on the internet, NIB of course, for $925 plus $25 shipping. My total was $950 but if I had paid the transfer fee of $25 the total would have been $975. Compare that to a total of about $1130 from the local dealer with tax added. No offense to local guys trying to make a living but simple economics told me which one to purchase. I buy a lot of stuff at the dealer who would have done the special order, so I don't feel bad about it.
And that is a perfect example of the kind of problems a FFL has. Your average buyer (especially those who do transfers) consider even sales tax to be a mitigating factor. Keep in mind the state does NOTHING for their 6% beyond collect it, and they collect it on every item sold at retail in the entire state.
The FFL usually tries to get by on the 10-20% of the sales he does only and has to pay operational costs which reduce that 10-20% sometimes by half or more. So in many cases, at the end of the day he's trying to live on the remaining 6% of the items he sells.
So he makes about the same as the State does, for all of his work, efforts and investment. And unlike most of his customers, he doesn't get a paycheck and doesn't have a benefits package.
Again, if any of you guys truly think FFLs are greedy or getting rich, I'll help you get your own FFL (I'm serious) so you can either get incredibly rich yourself or become the best FFL in the country with the lowest transfer fees.
I've been more fortunate than many, I've figured out a way to be different and catered to some specific markets in unique ways that brought me a lot of regular business. Thank God I'm no longer trying to get by on $25 transfers or attempting to sell the same guns everyone else has for the same prices you can find anywhere.
I'd like to see the whole FFL system burned to the ground, just go back to mail order and anybody who wants to sell firearms can either provide better pricing and service through their volume dealer accounts and used gun selection, or go out of business.
A lot of the better dealers I've dealt with considered it much less of a hassle when I ordered and paid for firearms myself, then they just made their $20 when it came in. They were happy to not waste their time on the phone with another borderline-personality-disorder firearm industry type when I could be wasting my own time and money for them.
A lot of wholesalers and shotgun news type publications have a list of ALL the FFL's in your area, you'll see pretty quick that you have access to a lot more dealers than you think.
There's no money on new guns. Used guns are where you can actually make money. Charging over MSRP is a good strategy on new firearms, if your strategy includes keeping the same guns on your shelf for six months to a year before you find a sucker willing to pay that price.
A more effective strategy on new guns is charge $20 for transfers, take the business, take the foot traffic, and have a good selection of used guns and accessories at reasonable prices. I had a friend who stayed in business for years doing this next to one of the largest wholesalers in the country that sold over the counter. Made great money. A lot of times he never charged me. Eventually he charged $40 if it was your first time buying through him, but that was mainly to keep out the riffraff.
Aug has made some valid points about the cost of being an FFL and they transfer fees they charge.
One other point to remember is that FFL's carry large liability policies (two different types typically). These are EXPENSIVE!!!
C4
Well you are either missing or avoiding the point I made. Did you need somebody who was a FFL to qualify for that $8k price?
No, it was a custom order from a place that does not have products in any type of dealer distribution system. The backlog/wait was about 18 mos. so it did not look like there would ever be product just sitting on the shelves waiting to be purchased.
Based on seeing a couple of friends in the industry, I have to agree that it's a difficult way to make a living. What does it take to stock a decent general gun store (shotguns, hunting rifles, black guns, pistols, ammo, reloading supplies, holsters, targets, optics, scope mounts, reloading equipment)? $1 mil? $2 mil? That is so far out of reach for most new entrants to the market that it might as well be $1 billion. Add to that the difficulty of turning a sufficient volume of guns at a $40 markup to be a meaningful revenue source. Add to that BATFE hassles. Add to that the insurance costs Grant mentioned. Add to that the cost of setting up a secure facility at the outset so that the inventory does not get stolen in the middle of the night. Add to that being tied to the store all day every day every week all year. Etc.
If you buy a gun from us new or used/consignment you receive a no charge-to-you ever repair/replacement/refund policy on it even if it requires shipping it somewhere. Only one company has ever charged us for repair (an AR company we no longer stock/carry, I'm surprised they aren't bankrupt buy now).
This is why we don't carry the cheap shit like Taurus, Lorcin, Hi-Point and all that crap. We lost way too much money sending broke ass shit back to the manufacturers sometimes up to 5 times to get them to work (meaning Beretta Tomcats and anything from Taurus).
That is a great policy, but it seems like a potential source for losses. Lots of used guns I have purchased needed something done to them. Here is an example of one that my dad bought:
Interarms Mark X 7mm rem mag $375
- problem: Tight chamber. Had to be reamed.
- problem: Did not eject properly.
- problem: Hairline crack at tang.
I think it cost a bit over $100 to fix. Seems to me that is just one of the risks that the buyer undertakes when he buys a used gun. Why did Dad buy a used Interarms instead of a new Winchester or whatever for 700 bucks? To save money. So he accepted some risk in exchange for the perceived savings.
Anyway, good on you for offering that great policy to buyers.
In New Jersey there are some political considerations that contribute to high transfer fees.
The instant check with the New Jersey State Police is $15.00 + 7% sales tax ($1.05). That's $16.05 before the dealer can make any money.
Next is the one handgun a month law. That is having an impact on some small dealers. People are buying fewer handguns due to this restriction. Dealers try to make up lost revenue through higher transfer fees.
Mike
In New Jersey there are some political considerations that contribute to high transfer fees.
The instant check with the New Jersey State Police is $15.00 + 7% sales tax ($1.05). That's $16.05 before the dealer can make any money.
Next is the one handgun a month law. That is having an impact on some small dealers. People are buying fewer handguns due to this restriction. Dealers try to make up lost revenue through higher transfer fees.
Mike
Mike "The Situation" Gunslinger
:D
Hope you had a good new year Mike! Stay safe out there.
C4
Who would of thunk that a FFL fee thread would be this damn interesting....but it is:)
I have always been quite frankly overwhelmed by the overall bs process of transferring a firearm...fees included. I learned long ago to just be patient, pay my damn fee for as low as I can find it, and then wait for that ride home finally with the newly transferred firearm that always feels so great.
I just got my fee jacked up to $35 from $25...time to shop for a new transfer locale. I am gonna take Grant's advice and check out a few pawn stores near me. That sounded like a sound piece of advice.
Thanks to all the dealers and FFL licensee holders for sharing some in depth info on this subject.
- Snooky out:D
GermanSynergy
01-03-11, 12:50
:rolleyes: I know a place in Maryland that charges $85 for transfers.....
The guy I deal with is an FFL/SOT and charges $40, and often lets me shoot some of his toys on the range for free. :big_boss:
No, it was a custom order from a place that does not have products in any type of dealer distribution system. The backlog/wait was about 18 mos. so it did not look like there would ever be product just sitting on the shelves waiting to be purchased.
In that case it falls under the second scenario and you did NOT need a FFL to qualify for pricing, merely to satisfy the legal shipping requirements of the 68 GCA and you should reasonably expect to pay no more than a service fee for that service.
Again, I think the entire problem is people who want "buying at FFL prices" to be the same thing as a "transfer." They are two different things and should have two different price structures.
I also agree with armakraut. Scrapping the FFL system would fix a lot of things.
Back then a individual could order a rifle directly from Winchester and have it sent to him, and he would pay RETAIL. A gun dealer would establish a sellers account with Winchester and buy guns at dealer prices and could then also sell them at RETAIL or with a discounted sale price.
It was a much better system for the dealer.
First of all, I had a type 01 FFL, but between the fees being increased by a factor of 10x and the zoning regulations imposed in '94 (part of the Brady Law), I gave it up.
My main purpose of having the FFL was to allow me to purchase across state lines due to extensive travel required by my primary occupation. I still did a pretty good amount of transfers to friends/family/colleagues by appointment only.
I normally charged $20 to do a transfer, most of which were special orders beyond what was generally found in local stores. Sometimes, I was able to quote a price above wholesale, but still less than the going local prices (which were often well over MSRP, BTW).
Another benefit was splitting ammo orders with someone, with them paying proportionally plus the shipping cost. A lot of folks don't like getting ammo shipped to their residence, apparently.
There's a local shop here that does $25 transfers, but you're on your own to deal with the arrangements and any functional issues. Fair enough, and I've supported them by also buying off the shelf from them too.
Anyway, I agree that GCA '68 needs to go away. There were plenty of profitable gun shops before that knee-jerk legislation was passed.
First of all, I had a type 01 FFL, but between the fees being increased by a factor of 10x and the zoning regulations imposed in '94 (part of the Brady Law), I gave it up.
My main purpose of having the FFL was to allow me to purchase across state lines due to extensive travel required by my primary occupation. I still did a pretty good amount of transfers to friends/family/colleagues by appointment only.
I normally charged $20 to do a transfer, most of which were special orders beyond what was generally found in local stores. Sometimes, I was able to quote a price above wholesale, but still less than the going local prices (which were often well over MSRP, BTW).
Another benefit was splitting ammo orders with someone, with them paying proportionally plus the shipping cost. A lot of folks don't like getting ammo shipped to their residence, apparently.
There's a local shop here that does $25 transfers, but you're on your own to deal with the arrangements and any functional issues. Fair enough, and I've supported them by also buying off the shelf from them too.
Anyway, I agree that GCA '68 needs to go away. There were plenty of profitable gun shops before that knee-jerk legislation was passed.
Doesn't sound like the FFL was your primary source of income.
And back in the day when you could pull a FFL for $40 and run it out of your home as a hobby business people could charge 10% or $25 since it was just play money anyway. That is where the 10% transfer came from in the first place.
But there is no way a dealer running a gun business as his primary income source can survive on 10% mark ups. That is why the only ones doing that and things like $25 transfers are FFLs with a day job or some other primary source of revenue like a pawn shop or a shooting range.
I've seen a LOT of guys try it and every year somebody who thought they were gonna "make it up in volume" by offering $25 transfers or 10% markups go out of business and those that don't change their business plan simply get another job and run a hobby FFL until their license expires.
They never own the market and never can get the necessary volume for it to work. That is because they are in competition with a dozen other new local FFLs who all had the same idea and the end up fighting over the crumbs on the table.
The reason I started this thread, was not to dispute how much dealers charge for transfers, but rather to just understand what the costs are.
In other words, when I go to a dealer to buy a gun from them and they charge a processing fee of $25 for the background check, is that really what it costs or are they just making an extra $25?
How much does it cost the dealer in actual monetary fees, to do a background check?
Also, when I order say a KAC rifle from a dealer who doesn't stock it and won't order one, and I order one from say Lawmen's, etc and have it shipped to the local FFL, the local FFL charges $45 or more to do the paperwork, etc.
Why the difference in costs, and am I just being taken for extra money?
The reason I started this thread, was not to dispute how much dealers charge for transfers, but rather to just understand what the costs are.
In other words, when I go to a dealer to buy a gun from them and they charge a processing fee of $25 for the background check, is that really what it costs or are they just making an extra $25?
How much does it cost the dealer in actual monetary fees, to do a background check?
It varies. In some place NICS is free. In my state I have to go through FDLE who charge me $5 per call (and I'm pretty sure they use the NICS system). But keep in mind it isn't just the call, it is also the responsibility to store those 4473s for 20 years and all the other operational costs of being a FFL. I should mention I know a LOT of former FFLs who got out of the game and are thrilled to pay a $25 transfer fee for guns. In a lot of ways they actually buy guns cheaper than the FFL can.
Also, when I order say a KAC rifle from a dealer who doesn't stock it and won't order one, and I order one from say Lawmen's, etc and have it shipped to the local FFL, the local FFL charges $45 or more to do the paperwork, etc.
Why the difference in costs, and am I just being taken for extra money?
If a dealer isn't willing to special order a firearm for you then you should find one who is. I've never even heard of that before. And if you order one from a "FFL required" wholesaler and only pay a $45 markup, you are hardly being taken.
To flip this so you understand it try this example. If a dealer is used to buying guns from people who are losing their shirt due to a pending divorce and is used to offering $450 for Colt AR-15 rifles in excellent condition, that doesn't mean those people who are selling the same rifle for $1,000 are trying to rip them off.
The reason I started this thread, was not to dispute how much dealers charge for transfers, but rather to just understand what the costs are.
In other words, when I go to a dealer to buy a gun from them and they charge a processing fee of $25 for the background check, is that really what it costs or are they just making an extra $25?
How much does it cost the dealer in actual monetary fees, to do a background check?
Also, when I order say a KAC rifle from a dealer who doesn't stock it and won't order one, and I order one from say Lawmen's, etc and have it shipped to the local FFL, the local FFL charges $45 or more to do the paperwork, etc.
Why the difference in costs, and am I just being taken for extra money?
It costs the dealer nothing in actual fees, meaning, the FFL doesn't pay anything to have you processed. There is no ATF fee per transfer.
But you're sort of thinking about it wrong. It "costs" the dealer a hell of a lot of time, overhead, licensing, zoning, paperwork and everything else to be in business. You are paying for their service.
That being said, these guys doing transfers for $20 - $30 is an absolute bargain. The liability, time, overhead and absolute headache of dealing with bubbas is not worth four times that, for me.
It costs the dealer nothing in actual fees, meaning, the FFL doesn't pay anything to have you processed. There is no ATF fee per transfer.
This depends on where you live. Not every state runs long guns (or handguns) through the NICS directly, for example. Some states do it themselves. In Utah the dealer pays a $7.50 fee per check, I believe, to the state agency that runs the checks, unless the buyer has a Utah CCW permit, in which case the state does it for free since they run constant checks on CCW holders anyway.
Preferred User
02-19-11, 00:42
To put a slight spin into this. What do you get charged (or charge) to do a transfer if a gun is being sent away to be refinished, modded, etc. and then receive it back for the gun owner?
To put a slight spin into this. What do you get charged (or charge) to do a transfer if a gun is being sent away to be refinished, modded, etc. and then receive it back for the gun owner?
Should be $0 as it isn't a transfer.
You don't need a FFL to ship firearms for repair, and you don't need a FFL to get them back. Ownership is NOT changing so it is NOT a transaction ruled by the 68 GCA.
You also don't need a FFL to ship your guns to yourself for a hunting trip or moving to another state. Ownership is NOT changing and you do not need a FFL to ship your property to yourself.
ForTehNguyen
02-19-11, 07:58
$25 here
Preferred User
02-19-11, 08:54
Should be $0 as it isn't a transfer.
You don't need a FFL to ship firearms for repair, and you don't need a FFL to get them back. Ownership is NOT changing so it is NOT a transaction ruled by the 68 GCA.
You also don't need a FFL to ship your guns to yourself for a hunting trip or moving to another state. Ownership is NOT changing and you do not need a FFL to ship your property to yourself.
Wow. There are a lot of people doing work on guns that do not know that. I have had to ship to an FFL on several occasions for mods including very recently to have the action and bolt on my shotgun polished.
Seems like I am going to have to do some research so I can point out the error in their thinking (and save myself some fees). Thanks.
If you can find the FFL holders who sell guns "on the side" it works out well. I know of two guys like this around me who do transferrs for $10. My local shop, however, will not transfer anything that they can order into their shop and make a profit on themselves. I could understand if they only had a problem with receiving and transferring something like a new Rem. 870 while the same gun is on his shelf 24/7, but they also wont transfer items that they don't have in stock but could special order.
Robb Jensen
02-19-11, 09:43
It costs the dealer nothing in actual fees, meaning, the FFL doesn't pay anything to have you processed. There is no ATF fee per transfer.
But you're sort of thinking about it wrong. It "costs" the dealer a hell of a lot of time, overhead, licensing, zoning, paperwork and everything else to be in business. You are paying for their service.
That being said, these guys doing transfers for $20 - $30 is an absolute bargain. The liability, time, overhead and absolute headache of dealing with bubbas is not worth four times that, for me.
In VA there's a non-negotiable $2 Virginia State Police fee for the instant check and $5 for non-residents for each check submitted to the VA State Police.
The 'transfer fee' is what that particular dealer has figured out what his time is worth. How many of your sales people do you want tied up doing transfer paperwork vs. helping and selling products/guns? It's a fine balance. 'Transfers' get people who in the future will hopefully buy product that the dealer will actually make some money on. But 'transfers' can also cost you a lot of time. If it's a Saturday and you have 25 customers in the store and 10 sales agents, 6 of which are tied up doing 'transfer' paperwork how does look to the customers trying to buy a gun from you?
We were doing so many that we had to stop accepting from non-FFLs because at least once a month we would get illegal guns (non registered SBRs/SBSs), loaded guns or guns that were clearly misrepresented in their ads (GunBroker etc), guns were just packaged poorly causing damage. We also had a lot of guys 'tracking' their packages via FedEx and UPS and 5 minutes after the package was signed for calling to ask or even worse just ballsy enough and just showing up asking to pick them up. Now the policy is that if it's delivered today it'll be available to be picked up tomorrow at open of business. When our new website is up it'll feature an online form with pull down menus that you fill out for transfer info to streamline the process. This should eliminate 1/2 of the confusion and info required to comply with Fed and VA State laws about what forms of ID are acceptable and the VA Assault Weapons laws etc for when they are there to pick their item up.
Should be $0 as it isn't a transfer.
You don't need a FFL to ship firearms for repair, and you don't need a FFL to get them back. Ownership is NOT changing so it is NOT a transaction ruled by the 68 GCA.
You also don't need a FFL to ship your guns to yourself for a hunting trip or moving to another state. Ownership is NOT changing and you do not need a FFL to ship your property to yourself.
I tried so hard to explain this to my father-in-law when he was traveling from VA to MO and then flying back. I told him he can carry his shotgun with him when driving to MO and then just ship it back to himself in VA and he would be well within the law. He asked his FFL buddy about it and his buddy said I was wrong. I showed the ATF FAQ to him in which the ATF says it is okay and he still didn't do it, so he left the shotgun there in MO at his FFL buddy's shop.
:suicide:
Gutshot John
02-19-11, 09:58
Should be $0 as it isn't a transfer.
You don't need a FFL to ship firearms for repair, and you don't need a FFL to get them back. Ownership is NOT changing so it is NOT a transaction ruled by the 68 GCA.
You also don't need a FFL to ship your guns to yourself for a hunting trip or moving to another state. Ownership is NOT changing and you do not need a FFL to ship your property to yourself.
This is true for long guns, it isn't true for handguns.
You can ship a longgun directly to an FFL to sell/perform a transfer or to have work done. You cannot ship it to a non-FFL in either case.
You need to be an FFL to send and receive a handgun whether for transfer or for work.
Preferred User
02-19-11, 10:53
You cannot ship it to a non-FFL in either case.
Which means they have to ship it back to an FFL after the work is done?
Gutshot John
02-19-11, 10:57
Which means they have to ship it back to an FFL after the work is done?
No.
If the longgun was transferred to you through purchase, and you're sending it out for work, the party doing the work must be an FFL but since it's your gun you can receive it directly back from them.
Preferred User
02-19-11, 11:18
Thanks. Seems to be a lot of confusion from several of the shops I have dealt with. Most want it sent from and returned to an FFL. That just adds $50+ to the cost of any work being done.
This is true for long guns, it isn't true for handguns.
You can ship a longgun directly to an FFL to sell/perform a transfer or to have work done. You cannot ship it to a non-FFL in either case.
You need to be an FFL to send and receive a handgun whether for transfer or for work.
If you are talking about via the USPS, that is correct. If you are talking about sending a handgun in general terms, that is incorrect.
It is perfectly legal for a non-FFL to ship a handgun to an FFL (interstate) or to another non-FFL (intrastate, barring state law to the contrary).
It is perfectly legal for a non-FFL to ship (interstate) a firearm (no distinction is made between long guns or handguns) to himself.
I don't see any distinction made for the type of firearm with respect to a repairing FFL returning it to the owner.
This is true for long guns, it isn't true for handguns.
You can ship a longgun directly to an FFL to sell/perform a transfer or to have work done. You cannot ship it to a non-FFL in either case.
You need to be an FFL to send and receive a handgun whether for transfer or for work.
Not true, you just can't do it USPS.
A private individual can ship a handgun to themselves or send it to the manufacturer and have it returned to them directly.
Thanks. Seems to be a lot of confusion from several of the shops I have dealt with. Most want it sent from and returned to an FFL. That just adds $50+ to the cost of any work being done.
This is usually a shop policy, not a law.
And it isn't just the "make money" move most assume it is. FFLs only want to send and receive from other FFLs. They do this as a move to protect themselves from potentially having to deal with the many scammers and tards out there, especially people who are not FFLs but still dealing in guns.
In most cases the FFL is making about $25 to be involved and it simply isn't worth it if it is a deal gone bad or some kind of scam. So if you only ship to and receive from other FFLs you have a minimal expectation of dealing with another reasonable business owner. There's nothing worse than being in the middle of a deal gone bad where you are only making lunch money.
Source: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html#shipping-firearms-usps
Q: May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U.S. Postal Service?
A nonlicensee may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed resident of another State. A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. The Postal Service recommends that long guns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun.
[18 U.S.C. 1715, 922(a)(3), 922(a)(5) and 922 (a)(2)(A)]
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Q: May a nonlicensee ship firearms interstate for his or her use in hunting or other lawful activity?
Yes. A person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in care of another person in the State where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. The package should be addressed to the owner. Persons other than the owner should not open the package and take possession of the firearm.
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:dirol:
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