View Full Version : So I took my TRP in to the gunsmith last weekend . . .
Took it to a guy and his son who do a lot of work on 1911s for local customers. I wanted to get the ejector pinned.
The son completely disassembled the gun, for which I am thankful because he showed me how to do it. Now I know. Anyway, after stripping it down to the frame he takes one look and tells me that he can't pin the ejector for me. There's no hole for the pin to go, so he gives me the gun back without taking my money. He won't drill a hole in the frame without knowing where to put it, said without a guide he could ruin the frame. I thanked him for his honesty.
Here's what I'm not sure about. He told me that I really don't need the pin, since Springfield press-fit the ejector in pretty tight and it seems solid. All the force on the ejector is lateral, while the whole point of the ejector pin is to keep it from moving up and down. Long as the ejector is contained inside the slide, it won't come loose.
Now, I think I already know the answer, but I'll ask anyway. Was the guy on to something, or should I send it in to Springfield Custom Shop to get the ejector pinned?
Thanks in advance.
Dave Berryhill
01-03-11, 08:54
The ejector is not press fit, it is installed with some type of loctite holding it into the frame. It's true that the ejector can't come out if the slide is in place but it can move a little, which can have an effect on consistent ejection.
Drilling and pinning the ejector is an easy job for a competent 'smith with the proper tools. A milling machine or a special drilling fixture is required and at least your gunsmith knew his limitations.
There are lots of SA pistols out there with glued ejectors and they seem to work. I wouldn't dream of letting a pistol go out the door with a glued ejector, especially one that was going to be carried as a duty weapon. Maybe I'm paranoid but gluing an ejector would not inspire my confidence in the pistol. YMMV.
Wow I didn't know this glue could even be done. I just checked my Colt and S&W and both have pinned ejectors.
Does SA do this on all their models?
Thanks
Ned Christiansen
01-03-11, 09:45
I don't blame the guy. Under the best conditions, it still can be tricky drilling a 1/16 hole through 5/8 of anything, let alone decent gun steel, where the start of the hole is in a groove, and where the hole is interrupted by another, transverse hole. This is after you figure out exactly where to put it, set it up, and find that spot.
Probably why SA doesn't like doing it either.:sad:
I'd rather have them pinned, but they're OK this way. As long as it doesn't happen to break off flush with the top of the frame, that'd make getting the old leg out pretty hard.
Dos Cylindros
01-03-11, 10:16
I prefer mine to be pinned. I will say that clearly you have a decent human being for a local smith. I suspect some hack jobs out there would have tried to do it anyway with predictable results. At least you know he is an honest up front guy.
Dave Berryhill
01-03-11, 10:35
...Does SA do this on all their models
Some have pinned ejectors and some don't. I'm not sure which ones since I mostly get GI's to build on. The GI models are pinned.
Some have pinned ejectors and some don't. I'm not sure which ones since I mostly get GI's to build on. The GI models are pinned.
That doesn't make any sense to me. Why do it on what is generally considered one of their lower end guns and not on the higher end. Is there some advantage?
That doesn't make any sense to me. Why do it on what is generally considered one of their lower end guns and not on the higher end. Is there some advantage?
Just a guess, but I'd venture to say that it might be to save cost. The TRP is supposed to mimic the accuracy and functionality of the Pro while costing significantly less.
If I'm off base here, someone please correct me.
Dave Berryhill
01-03-11, 11:10
That doesn't make any sense to me. Why do it on what is generally considered one of their lower end guns and not on the higher end. Is there some advantage?
As I understand it, some of their pistols are completely built in Brazil (like the G.I. model) and some are built in the U.S. by Springfield Armory using partially machined frames from Brazil. The Brazilian-manufactured pistols have pinned ejectors.
Of those pistols that are built in the U.S., I'm not sure which ones they choose to drill for the ejector pin but it's an extra step that Springfield doesn't do to all of their pistols because of the extra labor.
Just a guess, but I'd venture to say that it might be to save cost. The TRP is supposed to mimic the accuracy and functionality of the Pro while costing significantly less.
If I'm off base here, someone please correct me.
Some Springfield Professionals come glued depending on the government contract run. I think it is just two different ways of looking at it. Some people think that it is weakened by drilling it.
You may have a point, I haven't heard of a problem with ejectors falling out.
Dave Berryhill
01-03-11, 12:49
...Some people think that it is weakened by drilling it.
Would they be the people who are trying to cut manufacturing costs? ;)
Would they be the people who are trying to cut manufacturing costs? ;)
Could it be Dave Williams own views on the subject? There are enough Pros out there now that if the glued ones had issues they would all be pinned on the newer ones. Just like they corrected the front sight pinning issue. If given a choice I would pin it. That being said, I have two Professionals with MIM and glue in them and still sleep ok at night.:D
First I'll state I'm a disgruntled ex EX PRO owner, had 2 , both were less than expected. SOLD BOTH!
Why on a $2500 gun is everyone OK with MIM and production shortcuts ( ala no pinning of the ejector).
Heck you can get a $1400 Baer and it's pinned with NO MIM !
now they cut out Nowlin bbls for their own in house mfd bbl and again everyone is OK with that !?
Folks buy the PRO to pretend they're FEEBS, wanna bees, that's the only thing I can think of. Because for the same dollars a higher end Baer or Wilson is a better overall built gun.
First I'll state I'm a disgruntled ex EX PRO owner, had 2 , both were less than expected. SOLD BOTH!
Why on a $2500 gun is everyone OK with MIM and production shortcuts ( ala no pinning of the ejector).
Heck you can get a $1400 Baer and it's pinned with NO MIM !
now they cut out Nowlin bbls for their own in house mfd bbl and again everyone is OK with that !?
Folks buy the PRO to pretend they're FEEBS, wanna bees, that's the only thing I can think of. Because for the same dollars a higher end Baer or Wilson is a better overall built gun.
They are not using the same crap MIM parts that Kimber uses. I am sure that whatever problems you had with the guns Springfield would have made it right. I have nothing against Wilson or Baer as they both make great 1911s. Name me another 1911 other than the Professional that has more documented street use from people whose lives depend on them. The gun is not magic, but in a 1911 world you do get what you pay for with the Pro. I am sure there are two people out there that are glad the guns did not meet your expectations.
I had absolutely no idea Springfield was doing this. My gun is a late 90's customized G.I.
3000 rounds through my TRP...haven't had an issue. If I do, that's what the lifetime warrenty is for.
Dave Berryhill
01-03-11, 20:23
...If I do, that's what the lifetime warrenty is for.
That may not help you in the middle of a gunfight ;)
That may not help you in the middle of a gunfight ;)
Maybe, but what are your odds of actually being in a gunfight, and then being in a gun fight where you actually have to shoot your gun, and then being in a gunfight where you had to shoot your gun and it malfuctioned and then it specifically malfunctioning because your ejector wasn't pinned...those are pretty small odds- I'll take my chances. The money is better spent on ammunition practicing actually shooting the gun then trying to out engineer people who professionally design guns for a living IMO.
At the end of the day, springfield wouldn't stand behind their product like they do if they thought it was faulty technology because they would go out of business fixing guns for free and ruin their reputation.
You can what if things to death. At the end of the day, if it aint broke- I don't fix it.
He won't drill a hole in the frame without knowing where to put it, said without a guide he could ruin the frame. I thanked him for his honesty.
Thanks in advance.
Still a very good smith to have around - lacking the correct jig and experience, referring you elsewhere was a class move.
My Springfield loaded came with the ejector glued, and it's now experiencing some show-stopping clocking - it needs to go back either way, and I too am much more confident with my pinned Baer units.
While it's not in Springfield's best interest to have to go about spending money repairing all their guns, if a costly and time-intensive pinning procedure would merely reduce the return rate of what few guns they sell that get shot more than a couple thousand rounds and even have the potential to break - I can see why this choice varies so much.
For the folks who are utterly savvy to the platform and have the cash, it's never really about a pissing match between manufacturers anyway - they either know an existing model fits their uses, or have a smith build what they want from scratch.
Suwannee Tim
01-03-11, 21:32
The fact that an innovation reduces cost does not necessarily mean the innovation is inferior to the original. Where would we be if everyone steadfastly refused to innovate to reduce costs because said innovation might be inferior? Still be using stone axes maybe?
Dave Berryhill
01-03-11, 22:19
To each his own. I've drilled and pinned several Springfield ejectors that were loose. I don't know whether this was due to the adhesive failing or to a poor installation but in the end it doesn't matter. The number is statistically insignificant but I sleep better at night knowing that when the pistols left my shop, they were the best that I could make. I can live with the fact that I may have only reduced the chance of that pistol's failure by a fraction of a percent.
I'm not saying that you should send your pistols in to have the ejector fixed, I'm just saying that one would never leave my shop unless it was drilled and pinned nor would I carry a pistol with a glued ejector. If you are just punching holes in paper then this discussion probably isn't relevant.
I don't mass produce pistols, I have job security because other companies mass produce pistols ;)
Dave Berryhill
01-03-11, 22:21
The fact that an innovation reduces cost does not necessarily mean the innovation is inferior to the original. Where would we be if everyone steadfastly refused to innovate to reduce costs because said innovation might be inferior? Still be using stone axes maybe?
Shooting Kimbers with external extractors and the Colt All American 2000? :D
To each his own. I've drilled and pinned several Springfield ejectors that were loose. I don't know whether this was due to the adhesive failing or to a poor installation but in the end it doesn't matter. The number is statistically insignificant but I sleep better at night knowing that when the pistols left my shop, they were the best that I could make.
As a Science and Technology historian, I have to say that you've very succinctly defined the difference between "manufacturing" and "crafting". Thanks! Do you mind if I use that? (properly attributed, of course.)
I can live with the fact that I may have only reduced the chance of that pistol's failure by a fraction of a percent.
I'm not saying that you should send your pistols in to have the ejector fixed, I'm just saying that one would never leave my shop unless it was drilled and pinned nor would I carry a pistol with a glued ejector. If you are just punching holes in paper then this discussion probably isn't relevant.
Sounds like a "chart" analogy for M1911s.
I don't mass produce pistols, I have job security because other companies mass produce pistols ;)
This is a great quote. Sig line material.
It is a pretty simple procedure for Springfield. They know the measurements and have the jigs all set up. I have sent back several MC Operators that are in duty usage. The fastest I have had for turn around was one that arrived at Springfield on Monday morning and I received it repaired and ready for service on Wednesday afternoon.
If this isn't a duty/self defense gun I wouldn't be as worried. If it is something you trust your life with I would contact Springfield and they will take care of it.
We usually don't send them back until they exhibit signs of becoming loose. We also document our round counts pretty well. The earliest I have ever seen one come loose was at about 3000 rounds (I noticed it when I was checking springs for replacement). The longest I have seen was my personally owned MC Operator at 14,000.
If yours isn't loose just shoot it. When it starts to loosen up, contact Springfield and have them pin it.
Dave Berryhill
01-04-11, 08:02
....If yours isn't loose just shoot it. When it starts to loosen up, contact Springfield and have them pin it.
Very good advise. Besides, many guys want to change sights, install a different trigger, etc. on their pistols, it doesn't take much effort to find a reason to send the pistol to Springfield Armory. If you do, you might as well have the ejector pinned while it is there.
Thanks folks for the replies. I appreciate all of you taking the time to respond, particularly our industry professionals like Dave and Ned.
Edit: That wasn't intended to close the thread, please keep discussing if y'all want!
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