View Full Version : RECCE?
Hey guys what the heck is a Reece? I know its another term for recon but us Army guys never had something we called a Reece unless its something that came up in the few months since retirement?
Derek_Connor
08-21-07, 17:04
Hey guys what the heck is a Reece? I know its another term for recon but us Army guys never had something we called a Reece unless its something that came up in the few months since retirement?
Recce aka "recky", has been a popular term coined for "recon rifles" Recon rifles was an idea that *i think* first started with the navy varsity guys, having 16inch carbines with a SS match barrel with varying optics in the bag (aimpoints, magnified 1-4x, acogs, etc) Setup to do everything good and nothing bad
A squared away general purpose rifle is the way I would describe it.
Wes @ MSTN had some information about it:
THE RECCE/RECON IDEA WAS THE PRODUCT OF ONE PARTICULAR N.S.W. ARMORER OF LONG STANDING. THE DESIGN PRE-DATES THE SPR. SEVERAL BARREL CONTOURS AND PROFILES HAVE BEEN USED. FRANK WHITE OF COMPASS LAKE DID SEVERAL BACK IN THE 90'S ON KRIEGER BLANKS. FRANK STARTED MAKING THEM FOR US IN 2000 ON KRIEGER BLANKS.
CURRENTLY, N.S.W. 16" RECCE CARBINES USE LILJA 1X8" TWIST BARRELS WITH CARBINE LENGTH GAS SYSTEMS & WYLDE CHAMBERS. ONE IS PICTURED AT THE BEGINNING OF THE THREAD. WE BUILT TEN WITH NAVY CONTRACT OVERRUN BARRELS FROM LILJA AND WERE EXTREMELY PLEASED WITH THE RESULTS. THAT IS WHY WE NOW USE LILJA BARRELS AS AN OPTION IN OUR CUSTOM UPPER LINE.
N.S.W. IS CURRENTLY USING LONG KAC FF RAS FORENDS. EXPECT TO SEE LARUE FORENDS VERY SOON ON THEM, WITH A LOT OF 13.2'S GOING TO THE WEST COAST BOYZ. THEY ALL HAVE KAC M4 QD COMPS AND OF COURSE USE THE KAC CAN.
SHOOTERS GET THEIR CHOICE OF OPTICS, I.E., ACOG, MR/T, LR/T, ETC., PLUS DR OPTIKS FOR CLOSE WORK. NIGHTFORCE IS DEVGROUP'S CURRENT SCOPE CHOICE FOR PRECISION APPLICATIONS. BUIS? UP TO THE SHOOTER.
If you're talking about the actual mission, "recce" was kind of picked up from the Brits. Most of the conventional Army uses "recon", but I've heard both. The term has been around for a while.
The guns were concept driven by my flippered brethren for a small, relatively light carbine that gives more range and precision than the M4. Pretty handy for places like, I dunno, Afghanistan...
I built my own using a Larue 16" Quad S upper with a Short Dot.
So I guess a S&W M&PT could be considered a PoMan's version of a Reece?
So I guess a S&W M&PT could be considered a PoMan's version of a Reece?
Not really as it doesn't have a SS barrel with a middy gas system. The FF rail is part of the design, but the barrel really needs to be more precision oriented than a chrome lined barrel.
C4
According to Wes in the above quote they use a carbine gas system, anyone know for sure?
All the "official" ones I saw were carbine length out of necessity, the parts were far more readily available when deployed.
All the "official" ones I saw were carbine length out of necessity, the parts were far more readily available when deployed.
I have heard that as well, but that newer revisions of the weapon had middy gas systems.
Kind of like the Orig. SPR's having rifle length gas systems and then they figured out that this gas system didn't do so well in cold weather.
C4
In Viet Nam Colt had a version of the M-16 rifle that was cut down and called the "CAR-15" or "CAR-16." Where you were and which unit you were in dictated how you identified the carbine. If I remember correctly, the CAR-16 was just a tad shorter than the present M-4 variants. SF, CIA, recon units and special operations groups sometimes used the CAR-16s. The U.S. forces called our scouting groups "recon teams" or "force recon." The Aussies and New Zealanders called their same team "reece teams." At the peak of the fighting in Nam, you had American paratroopers of the 173D, New Zealand scouts and Australian artillerymen in a combined unit all working together. As such, a lot of American gear got moved into the Aussie groups and New (Kiwi) Zealanders and vice versa. It was not unusual to see our American paratroopers walking about with FN/FAL rifles, our Aussies lugging M-16 rifles and our Kiwis with CAR-16 rifles. Not only did gear get traded and mixed up but so did the phrases and words. As soon as you got into the 173D you learned that reece meant recon. Initially the CAR-15/16 was one of the early efforts to design a short length rifle/carbine for recon/reece troops. The reece carbine because of its size was hoped to be more maneuverable in tight places, like jungle growth areas, tunnels and inside helicopters/airplanes and a bit lighter to carry. Every pound of weight that you could lose meant that you might be able to carry a little more food, water or ammo. The only trouble with most of the early CAR-15/16s was that they were VERY sensitive to dirt and some types of ammo. There you are shooting and all of a sudden your carbine jams. Not good. So that is where the reece/recon carbine actually got started.
Recce - as in reky, not reece and is Reece's Pieces.
I know a little something about it ;)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/Army%20stuff/IMG_3475.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/Army%20stuff/IMG_3472.jpg
Al U. 5811
08-31-07, 01:09
I worked with a patternmaker that was from South Africa. He was a South African army vet and talked quite fondly of his beloved R1 and the crazy Recce (yes, pronounced "Recky") guys that he knew.
What's funny is to hear a guy with an accent try to pronounce reece. I once heard a guy call it "racey." I was once told that reece, in one form or another, has been around since about WW2 or the Korean War but it did not gain broader acceptance in the Commonwealth militaries until about the 1960s. Then Viet Nam started its expansion with various allied nations working together in Viet Nam. It really took off in the 1970s in South Africa and the former Rhodesia where those nations even had reece vehicles that were specifically designed for warfare in their nations' brushy areas. It's been interesting watching phrases and such develop over the years and see how they get applied.
Your Reece's Pieces spelling mistakes are driving me nuts.
PALADIN-hgwt
08-31-07, 17:22
xxxxx
was the bipod a regular feature on them.
Here are pics of my RECON (RECCE) with it's two alternate optics setups.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v644/caniol/Recon-4-080407.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v644/caniol/Recon-3-080407.jpg
Sorry I missed that comment about my Recce.
This one is not a "true" Recce - since I wanted 1) Midlength gas system and the KAC Recce's I've seen where not middy. 2) Clearance for a BOTB suppressor to the same dimensions as the M4 and M16 barrel in front of the Front sight gas block.
Sorry for the poor pic job -- I seem to have misplaced my Digi Pic editor over here (new computer) and try as a I might the local Haj-Mart just does not seem to stock it ;)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/Iraq/IMG_3337-1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/Iraq/IMG_3282.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/Iraq/IMG_3283.jpg
I built this before I knew the diff between Recce, SPR, etc. It just feels right set up this way. It's my patrol rifle, perimeter rifle, support rifle, and has killed a couple dozen woodchucks in the last two years. My baby.
http://www.sgtlmj.com/m4-1.jpg
Bushie lower w/ RRA 2-stage trigger, LMT upper and bbl, Colt BCG, LaRue FF, SOPMOD stock, Leupold MR/T 1.5-5 SPR in a Larue LT-104.
Derek_Connor
09-02-07, 12:59
What I ended up with..... (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=6898)
Sweet build.
FWIW - I got my idea for mine off some that KAC had done up. Back when Clint worked there - I met up with him and coldblue one rainy day in Vero and rooted thru the neat stuff.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/Weapons/USMCUppers.jpg
From what I understood the USMC Warfighting lab was looking for a hybrind M4/M16A2 - it did not come to pass -- too bad.
In sort of this same vein, we have been having a discussion on another forum about precision 14.5" carbines - having the moniker of either RECON Scout (JTAC) or AFGHAN Carbine (Noveske). The RECON Scout/AFGHAN Carbine is defined as a lightweight carbine with a 14.5” precision barrel, sporting a mid-range tactical scope (1-4x20 or 1.5-5x20).
The weight of the carbine, barrel length, and the power of the optics are what differentiates the RECON Scout/AFGHAN Carbine from the RECON/RECCE carbine. Apparently some folks required a carbine that was basically a blend of an M4 Carbine and the RECON/RECCE carbine.
I myself am considering such a build, but wonder if a SS precision barrel will provide anything more than a good LMT 14.5” barrel with a low profile gas block would provide. My view of this carbine would be the LMT 14.5” upper assembly with a Daniel Defense Lite Rail, PRI Flip Up Front Sight/Gas Block and an LMT SOPMOD stock.
Any thoughts on the SS precision barrel versus an LMT barrel assembly?
In sort of this same vein, we have been having a discussion on another forum about precision 14.5" carbines - having the moniker of either RECON Scout (JTAC) or AFGHAN Carbine (Noveske). The RECON Scout/AFGHAN Carbine is defined as a lightweight carbine with a 14.5” precision barrel, sporting a mid-range tactical scope (1-4x20 or 1.5-5x20).
The weight of the carbine, barrel length, and the power of the optics are what differentiates the RECON Scout/AFGHAN Carbine from the RECON/RECCE carbine. Apparently some folks required a carbine that was basically a blend of an M4 Carbine and the RECON/RECCE carbine.
I myself am considering such a build, but wonder if a SS precision barrel will provide anything more than a good LMT 14.5” barrel with a low profile gas block would provide. My view of this carbine would be the LMT 14.5” upper assembly with a Daniel Defense Lite Rail, PRI Flip Up Front Sight/Gas Block and an LMT SOPMOD stock.
Any thoughts on the SS precision barrel versus an LMT barrel assembly?
My personal opinion is that this weapon platform needs to be accurate. Chrome lining simply detracts from that. So if your sold on a 14.5" barrel, the best option out there IMHO is the Noveske 14.5" simply because it uses a middy gas system and is an extremely accurate barrel.
C4
Here are some pics of Novekse 14.5's with LT 10" rails we did for a Texas SWAT team
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/JN%20Rifleworks/145%20custom%20build.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/JN%20Rifleworks/145%20custom%20build1.jpg
My personal opinion is that this weapon platform needs to be accurate. Chrome lining simply detracts from that. So if your sold on a 14.5" barrel, the best option out there IMHO is the Noveske 14.5" simply because it uses a middy gas system and is an extremely accurate barrel.
C4
Since I already have the RECON (pictured a few posts back) I thought I'd like to go with the 14.5" barrel. The mid-length gas system on a precision barrel would be a plus. I was just concerned that I might not appreciate the accuracy difference between a 14.5” SS barrel and a good M4 barrel.
Since I already have the RECON (pictured a few posts back) I thought I'd like to go with the 14.5" barrel. The mid-length gas system on a precision barrel would be a plus. I was just concerned that I might not appreciate the accuracy difference between a 14.5” SS barrel and a good M4 barrel.
If you don't shoot quality ammo, don't use a good trigger and have some kind of powered optic, you most likely would not be able to take advantage of the extra accuracy potential.
C4
If you don't shoot quality ammo, don't use a good trigger and have some kind of powered optic, you most likely would not be able to take advantage of the extra accuracy potential.
C4
My trigger would probably be a Geiselle. My optic would be an illuminated Leupold Mark 4 1.5-5x20mm MR/T M2. So based on this, I would be able to appreciate the SS precision barrel over an M4 barrel.
I'm looking at getting a "Recce" for my first rifle was wondering what you guys thought of this.
Noveske 16.1" Recon barrel (I sent a email to Noveske asking about getting a recon in 4140 Cm).
Vltor VIS-3AK Handguard.
either AAC SPR/M4 Blackout FH or Surefire FH556K for a flash hider.
Young Mfg. F/A bolt carrier.
PRI Gas Buster.
Nightforce 1-4x24mm scope in a Larue SPR/M4 mount.
I will problably have this build done by Wes Grant. I'll have the barrel done in Ionbond. I asked that question about the recon since they just did a run of CQBs in 4140. here's a link.
http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=105cqbclupper&cat=7&page=1&search=&since=&status=
Cyrus
Using decent ammo with a good trigger, optics etc what kind of accuracy can a good quality chrome lined 16" barrel be expected to provide in a perfect world @ 100yards? Same question with a stainless barrel.
Thanks
I'm looking at getting a "Recce" for my first rifle was wondering what you guys thought of this.
Noveske 16.1" Recon barrel (I sent a email to Noveske asking about getting a recon in 4140 Cm).
Vltor VIS-3AK Handguard.
either AAC SPR/M4 Blackout FH or Surefire FH556K for a flash hider.
Young Mfg. F/A bolt carrier.
PRI Gas Buster.
Nightforce 1-4x24mm scope in a Larue SPR/M4 mount.
I will problably have this build done by Wes Grant. I'll have the barrel done in Ionbond. I asked that question about the recon since they just did a run of CQBs in 4140. here's a link.
http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=105cqbclupper&cat=7&page=1&search=&since=&status=
Cyrus
That is a good setup. I would advise you to pass on having MSTN build the weapon as you will pay more than getting one built by Novekse, GTS or even us. ;)
C4
Derek_Connor
09-17-07, 09:41
That is a good setup. I would advise you to pass on having MSTN build the weapon as you will pay more than getting one built by Novekse, GTS or even us. ;)
C4
While I understand C4i/GTS/MSTN are all competitors, and the OP wants to build this now, does anyone else have a 16inch Noveske instock thats IONBond coated?
While I understand C4i/GTS/MSTN are all competitors, and the OP wants to build this now, does anyone else have a 16inch Noveske instock thats IONBond coated?
I believe GTS does, and we have barrels with them right now as well.
C4
sent a e-mail to dennysguns for a 14.5" Afghan "Recce" build. Grant, I'm sending a PM your way.
You can't go wrong with Noveske barrels.
I'm also waiting for Noveske 14.5" Afghan barrel from Grant. :) They are worth the wait.
Paul
That is a good setup. I would advise you to pass on having MSTN build the weapon as you will pay more than getting one built by Novekse, GTS or even us. ;)
C4
That's good info. I asked for quotes from GTS, MSTN, and Noveske before I had my upper built last year and MSTN was substantially higher for the same configuration. I ended up going with GTS because it was the most readily available at the time (Noveske's wait time was around 12 weeks) and I wasn't sure if/ when I was PCS'ing at the time. That said with the money I saved I had the barrel fully fluted and a few hundred bucks left over the original MSTN quote.
I would advise you to price shop first and if possible support the people here first if there isn't much difference.
got a reply back from noveske about getting the recon in 4140 CM, here's the reply:
Yes we can. It is a special order item, and may be about 12 weeks. We have Stainless recon barrels on the shelf. Thanks,
----John
Grant,
would I be able to order this barrel through you, so you can use it for my build?
Damn Kevin. My first instinct was to pick at the "reece" spelling of "recce" but didn't want to get into trouble with you! ;)
Damn Kevin. My first instinct was to pick at the "reece" spelling of "recce" but didn't want to get into trouble with you! ;)
Feel free anytime you see someone mispelling RECCE to correct them ;)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/For%20Lumpy/jbtvshippiebq5.gif
On this type of build what kind of accuracy differance can be expected between a stainless and CL barrel of good quality?
Derek_Connor
09-29-07, 05:49
how good of a shot are you? is the real question...
plenty of SS builds out there with shooters behind them that end up subMOA
chrome lined, Id imagine groups are going to open up a little, 1-2moa
there is a shooter on TOS that is claiming submoa groups with one of JNR's new hammer forged barrel..
how good of a shot are you? is the real question...
plenty of SS builds out there with shooters behind them that end up subMOA
chrome lined, Id imagine groups are going to open up a little, 1-2moa
there is a shooter on TOS that is claiming submoa groups with one of JNR's new hammer forged barrel..
I could always be better a better shot. I have had alot of time behind the trigger work wise but im no sniper. Im trying to figure out what type of barrel i want for my next build.
AR15barrels
09-30-07, 00:49
On this type of build what kind of accuracy differance can be expected between a stainless and CL barrel of good quality?
In a rest where shooter error is removed, probably 1/2 to 1 MOA difference.
Add in shooter error and it may or may not matter.
The quality of the actual barrel blank has more effect than the fact that it's chrome lined or not.
A turd barrel shoots like a turd with or without chrome.
A good barrel shoots good with or without chrome, but usually better without chrome.
Given the same attention to detail (or lack of), it's easier to make a more consistent barrel from stainless than from chromoly.
I've got a 16" LMT CL bbl and shooting off a pack with decent ammo I can keep it MOA.
I've Q'd on our sniper course several times with it, and it's a 1MOA requirement.
This is with the Leupy 1.5-5 MR/T.
PhotomanM4
09-30-07, 19:24
Hey guys what the heck is a Reece? I know its another term for recon but us Army guys never had something we called a Reece unless its something that came up in the few months since retirement?
Main Entry: re·con·noi·ter
Variant(s): or re·con·noi·tre /"rE-k&-'noi-t&r, "re-k&-/
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): -noi·tered or -noi·tred; -noi·ter·ing or re·con·noi·tring /-'noi-t&-ri[ng], -'noi-tri[ng]/
Etymology: obsolete French reconnoître, literally, to recognize, from Old French reconoistre -- more at RECOGNIZE
transitive verb : to make a reconnaissance of
intransitive verb : to engage in reconnaissance
It's French. No wonder so much confusion! :D
Main Entry: re·con·noi·ter
Variant(s): or re·con·noi·tre /"rE-k&-'noi-t&r, "re-k&-/
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): -noi·tered or -noi·tred; -noi·ter·ing or re·con·noi·tring /-'noi-t&-ri[ng], -'noi-tri[ng]/
Etymology: obsolete French reconnoître, literally, to recognize, from Old French reconoistre -- more at RECOGNIZE
transitive verb : to make a reconnaissance of
intransitive verb : to engage in reconnaissance
It's French. No wonder so much confusion! :D
Uhhhh
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