Magsz
01-06-11, 14:16
Please note, this is on a pre production T&E sample so essentially everything is subject to change.
Apex Forward Sitting Sear Review.
Lets start with a little bit of a background. I have been shooting, carrying and training with M&P’s for about three years now. My first M&P was a 4.25 inch 9mm that i shot stock for quite some time. Before making a single change to the pistol i had racked up 30,000+ rounds of factory 115, 124 and 147 grain ammo. Now, i will be honest, during this time i spent ALOT of time working to improve my ability to manipulate a handgun but i would consider this my formative time on the platform. I really didnt know a good trigger from a mediocre trigger or a bad trigger from an excellent trigger. The M&P was my first personally owned handgun and over the next three years i would spend alot of time on it along with Glocks and a little 1911 action.
This very first M&P was a very early 2008 production gun and looking back i definitely remember a heavy trigger pull with a distinct two stage feel. Knowing what i know now the two stage feel was due to the heavy striker block spring and the ridiculous profile that S&W uses on their striker block plungers. Long story short the trigger bar essentially bashes into a square profiled nub that it then has to push out of the way in order to allow the striker to move forward during the trigger press. The lack of a true round shape on this object creates unnecessary friction in the system. After a quality break in period of about 5k rounds i noticed the trigger had improved in two ways. For starters, it was significantly lighter. Secondly it had smoothed out considerably.
After two years of shooting a stock M&P i was confident in my growing abilities and i had a better understanding of what makes a good trigger. I was on the lookout for ways to improve the trigger characteristics in my M&P so that i could concentrate less on fighting the gun and more on the fundamentals of pistol marksmanship, self defense training and competition.
Problems:
1. Trigger pull was heavy. Even after a significant break in period my trigger was close to 6 pounds with the factory components.
2. Significant over travel present in the stock components. Upwards of an 1/8th of an inch after the break until the trigger hit the frame mounted over travel stop.
3. Wide variance of feel in the factory sears. Some of them were mushy, some broke like glass. I like a break somewhere in between. A glass like break is startling with a heavy trigger weight for me.
4. This ties into #3 but i was unable to get any real consistency in triggers between models. I had added two 9c’s to my collection at this point and all three guns felt different.
Solutions:
1. Apex Tactical.
Wait...rewind a second, why did you choose Apex Tactical?
Apex offered a solution to all of the above issues. Over travel was eliminated, pull weight with the addition of the sear was reduced to 4 pounds 3 ounces in all of my pistols and the break while crisp still has the teeniest bit of roll to it prior to the release of the striker. For less than 50 dollars shipped i was extremely pleased with the outcome after installation. I avoided the hassle of trying to find a reputable gunsmith to work for me. I avoided the issues of shipping and waiting to receive my handgun back and truth be told, i avoided any and all potential issues with voiding my warranty by still retaining my factory sear. Should any show stopping issues arise and the pistol require shipment back to S&W all i would have to do is replace the Apex unit with the factory sear and send the pistol on its merry way.
Time Travel Forward To Today:
Ive been running the Apex sears for more than a year now and while i love the innovation and trigger characteristics i am not head over heels. As i developed my handgun skills i realized i was having a significant issue shooting my Apex equipped guns well. During slow fire, grouping with this sear is as easy as pie. No sight disturbance during the trigger press as there is no over travel and the pull weight, while not being competition light lends itself very well towards not having to muscle the trigger into breaking. The issue that i ran into was due to the break point of the Apex equipped gun and the M&P itself. With the medium backstrap i found that at speed my trigger finger would slip into the trigger well resulting in almost the first joint being on the trigger. I could consistently see my shots walk to the left on any shooting drill or course of fire where anything more than slow fire was required.
The intermediate solution to this was to develop a bit of trigger slap to reset my finger in the appropriate position on the trigger. Definitely not good technique but it worked...sort of. The sort of comes into play when you factor in the huge amount of pre travel on an the apex equipped gun. It was starting to feel a bit like a revolver at this point as there was a ton of travel before you reached the engagement point of the sear. If you slap the trigger you generally fail to meet the trigger at its exact reset point. It was a compromise i wasnt very happy with as i could feel and see it hurting my accuracy. I was left shaking my head a bit wondering how i could go about correcting this issue. I tried the large backstrap which fixed my trigger position but compromised my ability to hold onto the gun under recoil. There were too many gaps in my firing grip and my small hands but longer fingers were really screwing me over. I went back to the medium grip to help me manage recoil and muzzle flip but the left push returned. At this point i was considering ditching the M&P and going to a Glock. A week on the Glock and well...that was quashed pretty quick. Nothing against the Glock but i love the M&P platform and i didnt want to give up just yet.
Enter the files, polishing stones, dremel, thermonuclear bionic bench vise and one dumbass with all of the above...me. I returned to stock sears, installed pre travel and over travel stops and spent the next couple of months shooting the snot out of these setups. Problem solved. No more left push, easy to manipulate triggers, same 4 pound break, no over travel and one happy ass camper. Long story short, i moved the trigger break point about a quarter inch forward of the built in frame mounted over travel stop. My finger was no longer able to slip into the trigger guard with this setup.
Problems:
1. As happy as i was with this new setup i was now using modified stock sears that i had to cut and polish to get down to a 4 pound pull weight. To date, after many thousands of rounds these sears are still going strong. Having said that, i still do not trust them. I have cut through the surface heat treating and hardening and i know that over time they WILL wear down resulting in a Miami Special.../wink.
2. Repeatability is always in question as i am hand shaping these sears. While they all come out relatively similar they are not truly the same. I dont care HOW good you are, without using a machine to cut your sear any time you hand gunsmith anything you will NEVER repeat something 100%. There are no duplicates or clones when it comes to garage gunsmithing. The only way to have 100% repeatability is to use a machine which i do not have access to. Trust me, i do everything i can to ensure repeatability including measuring angles of cuts, repeated assembly and disassembly to test pull weights etc, etc.
Solutions:
1. Randy, you’re my hero. :) Mr lee has been hinting, teasing and promising a forward sitting sear for quite a while now and after repeated begging, some bribes and some things that shall forever remain un named, Mr Lee sent me a unit for T&E.
Evaluation:
The sear replicates and goes a step further than the work i did in my guns by pushing the break point forward but provides a much better break feel than the work that i performed. It is the same beautiful break as on the standard Apex Unit but pushed forward slightly. The unit itself is the same A2 hardened steel that should last for many thousands of rounds. Between myself and my shooting partner we own over a dozen M&P’s all equipped with Apex Sears (or have had them in there) and after thousands upon thousands of rounds we have yet to experience any issues other than one 9c that had sear bounce due to the small diameter sear housing spring and the fact that the gun was older than dirt and had a billion rounds through it.
Problems:
1. The sear has similar characteristics to a stock S&W sear when it comes to overall travel and its break point. The four pound break makes this trigger a little easier to handle despite the reintroduction of over travel so IF you dont mind over travel and you want a forward break point, this sear is for you. Generally speaking, shooters do NOT like overtravel as it can cause sight disruption and thusly a thrown shot.
Solutions:
1. Randy? Care to chime in here? :)
2. Gunsmith David Bowie does an amazing job of installing Pre travel and Over travel stops so if you want to truly remove alot of trigger travel and take advantage of a sear like this, he might be an option provided he doesnt mind working with an aftermarket sear.
Overall im very pleased with the sear and its design. I do believe it really comes into its own after over travel stops and pre travel adjustments have been made but it IS functional by itself especially if you can manipulate a stock trigger well. Randy, thanks for another great product!
Note that the darker sear is the new forward sitting sear.
http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/941/apexforwardsear2of2.jpg
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/1815/apexforwardsear1of2.jpg
Apex Forward Sitting Sear Review.
Lets start with a little bit of a background. I have been shooting, carrying and training with M&P’s for about three years now. My first M&P was a 4.25 inch 9mm that i shot stock for quite some time. Before making a single change to the pistol i had racked up 30,000+ rounds of factory 115, 124 and 147 grain ammo. Now, i will be honest, during this time i spent ALOT of time working to improve my ability to manipulate a handgun but i would consider this my formative time on the platform. I really didnt know a good trigger from a mediocre trigger or a bad trigger from an excellent trigger. The M&P was my first personally owned handgun and over the next three years i would spend alot of time on it along with Glocks and a little 1911 action.
This very first M&P was a very early 2008 production gun and looking back i definitely remember a heavy trigger pull with a distinct two stage feel. Knowing what i know now the two stage feel was due to the heavy striker block spring and the ridiculous profile that S&W uses on their striker block plungers. Long story short the trigger bar essentially bashes into a square profiled nub that it then has to push out of the way in order to allow the striker to move forward during the trigger press. The lack of a true round shape on this object creates unnecessary friction in the system. After a quality break in period of about 5k rounds i noticed the trigger had improved in two ways. For starters, it was significantly lighter. Secondly it had smoothed out considerably.
After two years of shooting a stock M&P i was confident in my growing abilities and i had a better understanding of what makes a good trigger. I was on the lookout for ways to improve the trigger characteristics in my M&P so that i could concentrate less on fighting the gun and more on the fundamentals of pistol marksmanship, self defense training and competition.
Problems:
1. Trigger pull was heavy. Even after a significant break in period my trigger was close to 6 pounds with the factory components.
2. Significant over travel present in the stock components. Upwards of an 1/8th of an inch after the break until the trigger hit the frame mounted over travel stop.
3. Wide variance of feel in the factory sears. Some of them were mushy, some broke like glass. I like a break somewhere in between. A glass like break is startling with a heavy trigger weight for me.
4. This ties into #3 but i was unable to get any real consistency in triggers between models. I had added two 9c’s to my collection at this point and all three guns felt different.
Solutions:
1. Apex Tactical.
Wait...rewind a second, why did you choose Apex Tactical?
Apex offered a solution to all of the above issues. Over travel was eliminated, pull weight with the addition of the sear was reduced to 4 pounds 3 ounces in all of my pistols and the break while crisp still has the teeniest bit of roll to it prior to the release of the striker. For less than 50 dollars shipped i was extremely pleased with the outcome after installation. I avoided the hassle of trying to find a reputable gunsmith to work for me. I avoided the issues of shipping and waiting to receive my handgun back and truth be told, i avoided any and all potential issues with voiding my warranty by still retaining my factory sear. Should any show stopping issues arise and the pistol require shipment back to S&W all i would have to do is replace the Apex unit with the factory sear and send the pistol on its merry way.
Time Travel Forward To Today:
Ive been running the Apex sears for more than a year now and while i love the innovation and trigger characteristics i am not head over heels. As i developed my handgun skills i realized i was having a significant issue shooting my Apex equipped guns well. During slow fire, grouping with this sear is as easy as pie. No sight disturbance during the trigger press as there is no over travel and the pull weight, while not being competition light lends itself very well towards not having to muscle the trigger into breaking. The issue that i ran into was due to the break point of the Apex equipped gun and the M&P itself. With the medium backstrap i found that at speed my trigger finger would slip into the trigger well resulting in almost the first joint being on the trigger. I could consistently see my shots walk to the left on any shooting drill or course of fire where anything more than slow fire was required.
The intermediate solution to this was to develop a bit of trigger slap to reset my finger in the appropriate position on the trigger. Definitely not good technique but it worked...sort of. The sort of comes into play when you factor in the huge amount of pre travel on an the apex equipped gun. It was starting to feel a bit like a revolver at this point as there was a ton of travel before you reached the engagement point of the sear. If you slap the trigger you generally fail to meet the trigger at its exact reset point. It was a compromise i wasnt very happy with as i could feel and see it hurting my accuracy. I was left shaking my head a bit wondering how i could go about correcting this issue. I tried the large backstrap which fixed my trigger position but compromised my ability to hold onto the gun under recoil. There were too many gaps in my firing grip and my small hands but longer fingers were really screwing me over. I went back to the medium grip to help me manage recoil and muzzle flip but the left push returned. At this point i was considering ditching the M&P and going to a Glock. A week on the Glock and well...that was quashed pretty quick. Nothing against the Glock but i love the M&P platform and i didnt want to give up just yet.
Enter the files, polishing stones, dremel, thermonuclear bionic bench vise and one dumbass with all of the above...me. I returned to stock sears, installed pre travel and over travel stops and spent the next couple of months shooting the snot out of these setups. Problem solved. No more left push, easy to manipulate triggers, same 4 pound break, no over travel and one happy ass camper. Long story short, i moved the trigger break point about a quarter inch forward of the built in frame mounted over travel stop. My finger was no longer able to slip into the trigger guard with this setup.
Problems:
1. As happy as i was with this new setup i was now using modified stock sears that i had to cut and polish to get down to a 4 pound pull weight. To date, after many thousands of rounds these sears are still going strong. Having said that, i still do not trust them. I have cut through the surface heat treating and hardening and i know that over time they WILL wear down resulting in a Miami Special.../wink.
2. Repeatability is always in question as i am hand shaping these sears. While they all come out relatively similar they are not truly the same. I dont care HOW good you are, without using a machine to cut your sear any time you hand gunsmith anything you will NEVER repeat something 100%. There are no duplicates or clones when it comes to garage gunsmithing. The only way to have 100% repeatability is to use a machine which i do not have access to. Trust me, i do everything i can to ensure repeatability including measuring angles of cuts, repeated assembly and disassembly to test pull weights etc, etc.
Solutions:
1. Randy, you’re my hero. :) Mr lee has been hinting, teasing and promising a forward sitting sear for quite a while now and after repeated begging, some bribes and some things that shall forever remain un named, Mr Lee sent me a unit for T&E.
Evaluation:
The sear replicates and goes a step further than the work i did in my guns by pushing the break point forward but provides a much better break feel than the work that i performed. It is the same beautiful break as on the standard Apex Unit but pushed forward slightly. The unit itself is the same A2 hardened steel that should last for many thousands of rounds. Between myself and my shooting partner we own over a dozen M&P’s all equipped with Apex Sears (or have had them in there) and after thousands upon thousands of rounds we have yet to experience any issues other than one 9c that had sear bounce due to the small diameter sear housing spring and the fact that the gun was older than dirt and had a billion rounds through it.
Problems:
1. The sear has similar characteristics to a stock S&W sear when it comes to overall travel and its break point. The four pound break makes this trigger a little easier to handle despite the reintroduction of over travel so IF you dont mind over travel and you want a forward break point, this sear is for you. Generally speaking, shooters do NOT like overtravel as it can cause sight disruption and thusly a thrown shot.
Solutions:
1. Randy? Care to chime in here? :)
2. Gunsmith David Bowie does an amazing job of installing Pre travel and Over travel stops so if you want to truly remove alot of trigger travel and take advantage of a sear like this, he might be an option provided he doesnt mind working with an aftermarket sear.
Overall im very pleased with the sear and its design. I do believe it really comes into its own after over travel stops and pre travel adjustments have been made but it IS functional by itself especially if you can manipulate a stock trigger well. Randy, thanks for another great product!
Note that the darker sear is the new forward sitting sear.
http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/941/apexforwardsear2of2.jpg
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/1815/apexforwardsear1of2.jpg