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I tried the search and it refreshed back to a blank page.
My kid got into a "discussion" with some other 5th graders regarding "rounds" and "bullets".
It was always my understanding that "bullets" left the barrel, and "rounds" were the complete cartridge. I have many ammo cans, and none say "250 bullets, 7.62mm" on them.
However, I tried to find a definitive reference - but some sources indicated the terms were synonymous, others did not. Confused?!? I know in casual speech, people tend to interchange them, but surely one must be "correct".
His final reply to them was "You are probably the same people that call magazines clips!"
Have him start a poll on ARFcom! :sarcastic:
lethal dose
01-06-11, 17:40
A round is: casing, primer, powder, and a bullet... the bullet leaves the barrel after the primer is struck, the powder is burned, and around the same time the casing is extracted then ejected.
lethal dose
01-06-11, 17:41
Have him start a poll on ARFcom! :sarcastic:
Or have him do this.
They allowed him to have this discussion at school? Wow!
Robb Jensen
01-06-11, 17:48
Bullets = projectiles.
'Rounds' is a military term for cartridges but is also can be used as 'bullets'.
The term bullets is typically used by people who aren't really into shooting or guns.
They allowed him to have this discussion at school? Wow!
Well, I wouldn't say "allowed" ... :)
Have him start a poll on ARFcom! :sarcastic:
OK, I laughed at that.
'Rounds' is a military term for cartridges but is also can be used as 'bullets'.
I agree. For example... "TWO ROUND.... CENTER MASS!!"
I've never had an instructor call for two "bullets" center mass. :p
lethal dose
01-06-11, 20:45
I agree. For example... "TWO ROUND.... CENTER MASS!!"
I've never had an instructor call for two "bullets" center mass. :p
However, I would like to hear that.
Then what's a cartridge???:D
So, "cartridge" is the whole package, "bullet" is what leaves the barrel, and "round" can be either?
They allowed him to have this discussion at school? Wow!
That was my thought. How has this not resulted in a school shooting:rolleyes:. Glad that not everywhere has lost its mind
I recall from my ancient Army past, we would instruct firers on the line to lock one magazine of 20 rounds, so rounds clearly meant cartridges.
I also recall that we would fire those rounds downrange, so rounds clearly meant bullets.
I also recall that we would send three mortar rounds downrange, and mortar shells were neither cartridges or bullets, so rounds clearly meant something other than bullets or cartridges. :blink:
Then there is the official DoD definition of a Complete Round (A term applied to an assemblage of explosive and nonexplosive components designed to perform a specific function at the time and under the conditions desired. Examples of complete rounds of ammunition are: a. separate loading, consisting of a primer, propelling charge and, except for blank ammunition, a projectile and a fuze; b. fixed or semifixed, consisting of a primer, propelling charge, cartridge case, a projectile and, except when solid projectiles are used, a fuze; c. bomb, consisting of all component parts required to drop and function the bomb once; d. missile, consisting of a complete warhead section and a missile body with its associated components and propellants; and e. rocket, consisting of all components necessary to function.):blink:
But they don't seem to have a definition of an incomplete round, so I think you can use 'round' however the heck you want to and be correct, historically or otherwise. :confused:
Range commands are often a bad example to use. They are generally shortened into range slang and grammatically incorrect. The example used, two rounds ...center mass, is often a shortened version of "fire two rounds aiming at center mass".
Wikipedia states.
Round Cartridge (firearms), a single unit of ammunition.
Dictionary.com says.
a single discharge of shot by each of a number of guns, rifles, etc.
a single discharge by one firearm.
a charge of ammunition for a single shot.
Answers.com...
A single shot or volley.
Ammunition for a single shot or volley.
I say your son has that arguement won.
Have him start a poll on ARFcom! :sarcastic:
Dude his son is in 5th grade...clearly past the age limit/requirement for the true kiddie site....only 3rd graders and below my friend in kiddie land.
They allowed him to have this discussion at school? Wow!
My kids go to a private christian school and they talk about guns and shooting and hunting all the time. We're a military town of course so in a private school setting it's no big deal. This past week was spirit week and they even had a "Camo Day" Most of the kids either had military fatigues on or hunting gear on that day. I bet the public school officials would have thought a bunch of militia kids had invaded the school and called SWAT teams from all over the state in to quell the violent uprising if they had seen all the camo walking school that day.
No, no no! You guys have it all wrong! A round is when the kiddies go to lunch and one of them buys a "round" of koolaid for his buddies.
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-07-11, 09:59
I wonder if 'round' comes from the round balls from musket days?
Next weeks discussion: Clips vs magazines
Raven Armament
01-07-11, 10:21
Most likely so. There was an experimental cartridge that was triangular in shape. These were called trounds.
Drives me crazy when I hear people say CLIPS in place of magazines!
I wonder if 'round' comes from the round balls from musket days?
Next weeks discussion: Clips vs magazines
My kids go to a private christian school and they talk about guns and shooting and hunting all the time. We're a military town of course so in a private school setting it's no big deal. This past week was spirit week and they even had a "Camo Day" Most of the kids either had military fatigues on or hunting gear on that day. I bet the public school officials would have thought a bunch of militia kids had invaded the school and called SWAT teams from all over the state in to quell the violent uprising if they had seen all the camo walking school that day.
Got to say I love this, I went to a small private school in a small town so it kind of hit home for me, definatly something that I could of seen us doing if we had the chance to when I was in school and had thought of it.
The word "rounds" dates back hundreds of years. It may have been used sooner, but the earliest accounts I have heard of were used during the civil war. Both the Union and Confederacy had inventories of smooth bore and rifled muskets. For instance a Union New Jersey regiment prefered using smooth bore with one ball and several buck-shot. Components for cartridges were usually transported seperately to the field and paper cartridges were rolled and issued out to soldiers. At least for the Union, bullets were transported in barrels labeled with their caliber and the words "Mini Ball" or "Rounds". In place of "Rounds" sometimes there would just be a picture of a solid circle. Given the popularity in the south for smooth bore, it's possible that the term "rounds" remained a popular term for units recruted in the south.
Most of these things have a military origin. For instance "lock and load" refers to the loading process of the M1 Garand. "don't go off half cocked" refers to the half cocked loading position of the hammer on a flint lock musket. If you went off half-cocked you could have an accidental discharge or screw up your loading. "flash in the pan" refers to the powder igniting in the loading pan of a flint lock musket, but no ignition of the chamber charge resulting in a misfire. "steel yourselves" refers to drawing your sword and preparing for battle.
Thanks for all the info and opinions. Unlike "clips vs. magazines" there seems to be a little ambiguity here, but I am going to continue to use the word "round" to refer to a "cartridge".
As I teach my son to shoot, I try and teach him proper terminology as well as safety and history of firearms.
I wouldn't want him quoted someday in a "stupid things heard in the gun shop" thread.
Way to go, Mike. My children are home-schooled, and my 15 yr. old daughter was helping me fill stripper clips with rounds the other day. Both of my kids love shooting AR15s. It can get expensive.
The word "rounds" dates back hundreds of years. It may have been used sooner, but the earliest accounts I have heard of were used during the civil war. Both the Union and Confederacy had inventories of smooth bore and rifled muskets. For instance a Union New Jersey regiment prefered using smooth bore with one ball and several buck-shot. Components for cartridges were usually transported seperately to the field and paper cartridges were rolled and issued out to soldiers. At least for the Union, bullets were transported in barrels labeled with their caliber and the words "Mini Ball" or "Rounds". In place of "Rounds" sometimes there would just be a picture of a solid circle. Given the popularity in the south for smooth bore, it's possible that the term "rounds" remained a popular term for units recruted in the south.
Most of these things have a military origin. For instance "lock and load" refers to the loading process of the M1 Garand. "don't go off half cocked" refers to the half cocked loading position of the hammer on a flint lock musket. If you went off half-cocked you could have an accidental discharge or screw up your loading. "flash in the pan" refers to the powder igniting in the loading pan of a flint lock musket, but no ignition of the chamber charge resulting in a misfire. "steel yourselves" refers to drawing your sword and preparing for battle.
This practice had been abandoned for quite some time by the time of the Civil War. Ammunition was transported already assembled from arsenals. Lock and load dates back to the flintlock days as well, when the proper sequence of loading per manuals was to place cock(hammer) on half cock, open the hammer(frizzen) take a cartridge from the cartridge box, tear the tail off the paper cartridge, prime the lock with a few grains of the powder, close frizzen, and then to load the barrel with the rest of the cartridge, ram the ball home. I can also tell you with absolute certainty that smoothbores were no more popular in the south than they were in the north. Most troops on both sides wanted rifled arms.
The manuals that I've reviewed from the era do mention packing loose balls in crates and to be packed in sawdust as to prevent their "bruising" but that was for transport to arsenals when the balls (era generic term for all projectiles) were manufactured off site. Military terminology to this day refers to all non-hp ammunition as "ball" ammunition.
A typical Civil War ear ammo crate marking usually contained infomation on the ends of the crate that was similar to the following which varried widely from arseanals and loadings;
1000 Cartg
Rifle Musket
Cal. 58 Exp. Ball
Arsenal name
'Rounds' is a military term for cartridges but is also can be used as 'bullets'.
There is a reason for this. The "round" is the bullet/projectile. But the bullet/projectile does not come separately (ignoring reloaders). Ie, "I am loading up a bunch of rounds in my magazines" refers to the whole cartridge but references the bullets (being the important part in shooting, so to speak). The bullets are part of the whole cartridge and cannot be separated without firing. So you are talking about the bullets and get the cartridge along for the ride. (Hopefully that was understandable)
This is why we can also say: "Two rounds to center of mass, one round to the head" in a drill. The rounds are the bullets and we mean to fire them so in this case the cartridge does not come along for the ride...
Suwannee Tim
01-08-11, 19:08
A "round" of naval gunfire is all of the shots fired by a ship's guns at one time. Such a round might have been as many as 12 boolits which might have weighed a ton or more. Each. Guns were fired in rounds to make spotting misses easier. The splashes of 12 one-ton boolits is more visible from 20 miles or more than the splash on a single one-ton boolit. The old-timers, Hatcher, Keith, Sharpe, called them "cartridges". My father, being an old-school sailor taught me to call the thing that goes in the back of the gun a "cartridge". To him a "round" only had applicability to naval gunfire. Of course he called the bathroom the "head", the ceiling the "overhead", the floor the "deck" and so on. I call them the bathroom, ceiling and floor.:D I got corrected by Elmer Keith himself one time when I called a cartridge a "round".
Raven Armament
01-08-11, 19:16
My navy veteran grandfather said to fire all guns was a volley, not a round, though I've heard both.
Dude his son is in 5th grade...clearly past the age limit/requirement for the true kiddie site....only 3rd graders and below my friend in kiddie land.
Very good point!! :sarcastic:
Suwannee Tim
01-09-11, 07:08
My navy veteran grandfather said to fire all guns was a volley, not a round, though I've heard both.
I wrote a high school term paper on the Battle of Jutland, the only Dreadnaught gunfight in history and read quite a bit on the subject. The British Navy, Brit and American historians all called the multiple firing of a ship's guns a "round". The term "volley" is an old land warfare term.
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