View Full Version : Best Features ever for the Right Handed Shooter.
https://axtsweapons.com/
I dont know if all would aggree that remedial action for a right handed shooter has always been a pain on the M4 platform, giving up the strong hand grip to be able to lock the bolt to the rear and clear the malfunction, then reaquiring your strong hand grip and getting the gun back into action.
This was always a drill that was time consuming more for a right handed shooter than a lefty as we used our trigger finger to reach the bolt catch, I had a chance to play with the A-DAC lower and i think it is the lower to have right now. It will require a little getting used to but i think it is the best solution for a right handed shooter.
what do you think?
Talked to the designer/owner about them a year ago about these. Cool design for sure, but I don't know if they really ever got out to the public.
C4
Robb Jensen
01-06-11, 19:43
Looey and I both tested these lowers. They are a game-changer for sure. You use the mag catch to lock the bolt to the rear just as many add on levers. What's really nice is nothing can come lose and it's all internal with the addition of a single part.
Dionysusigma
01-06-11, 19:43
Didn't someone on here make a plate that did basically the same thing, that would work with existing receivers?
Didn't someone on here make a plate that did basically the same thing, that would work with existing receivers?
Yes I remember seeing that thread a while back, but I can't remember who was manufacturing it. IIRC they were testing prototypes and I don't know if the final product was ever released for sale.
Jay Cunningham
01-06-11, 19:51
Boonie-Packer made a thingy called a Redi-Catch that worked great... don't see it on their website any more though...
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=48415
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-06-11, 19:51
Not a bad little bit of kit, wasn't there a thread on this a month or so ago?
While it will lock back the BCG, it won't drop it, will it? For that reason, I'd take the BAD over this. Lot more bolt drops on fresh mags than malf clearing.
Robb Jensen
01-06-11, 19:58
Not a bad little bit of kit, wasn't there a thread on this a month or so ago?
While it will lock back the BCG, it won't drop it, will it? For that reason, I'd take the BAD over this. Lot more bolt drops on fresh mags than malf clearing.
Correct the mag catch on the A-DAC lower does not drop the bolt.
FWIW nobody makes a lower where the mag catch drops the bolt. Bolt catches drop the bolt.......
Not a bad little bit of kit, wasn't there a thread on this a month or so ago?
While it will lock back the BCG, it won't drop it, will it? For that reason, I'd take the BAD over this. Lot more bolt drops on fresh mags than malf clearing.
Releasing the bolt was never a problem, the problem i think was being able to lock the bolt to the rear. I will agree with Robb, when he says that there are other levers that will allow you to lock the bolt to the rear as a right hander but it means using an external lever and as good as the bad lever might be i cant make my self put something in front of my trigger.
Most of you guys have a lot more experience so I have a question. During the training that I've received, I can't remember a time when I locked the bolt back with a magazine still in the well. Is there ever a circumstance for this, or is it understood that if the bolt needs to be locked back, the mag should always be stripped too? If that's true, I see the value in the function of the ADAC piece.
Mike Miller
01-06-11, 21:15
Didn't someone on here make a plate that did basically the same thing, that would work with existing receivers?
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=66389
Talked to the designer/owner about them a year ago about these. Cool design for sure, but I don't know if they really ever got out to the public.
C4
No, they were kept pretty quiet and out of the public eye, although a ghost clone came about in the mean time. The official release was just a few hours ago.
militarymoron
01-06-11, 21:27
Most of you guys have a lot more experience so I have a question. During the training that I've received, I can't remember a time when I locked the bolt back with a magazine still in the well. Is there ever a circumstance for this, or is it understood that if the bolt needs to be locked back, the mag should always be stripped too? If that's true, I see the value in the function of the ADAC piece.
you can still lock the bolt back with the mag in the well with the ADAC lower the 'normal way' as the bolt catch still functions the same on the left side.
One problem I see with this design is, you have to have their lower. many people may not want their lower to simply add to the collection of lowers one already has laying around. The other problem, while it is innovative to say the least, I do not think it is practical in the sense that you do not always need to remove your mag to clear a malfunction such as an FTE or FTF. Heck even a stovepipe. I think this only comes in handy when you have a double feed, right? In those cases you want to drop the mag. So it appears that to utilize the lower's unique feature, you have to drop the mag. God forbid you have a double feed within the first few rounds of the mag, drop it, then have another malfunction in the next mag. You could have 20 to 30 or more rounds just laying on the ground to clear a malfunction. That is a lot of wasted rounds in a fight that could very well save your life or a teammate's.
I think the BAD addresses this issue better than a complete lower approach.
Robb Jensen
01-06-11, 21:41
One problem I see with this design is, you have to have their lower. many people may not want their lower to simply add to the collection of lowers one already has laying around. The other problem, while it is innovative to say the least, I do not think it is practical in the sense that you do not always need to remove your mag to clear a malfunction such as an FTE or FTF. Heck even a stovepipe. I think this only comes in handy when you have a double feed, right? In those cases you want to drop the mag. So it appears that to utilize the lower's unique feature, you have to drop the mag. God forbid you have a double feed within the first few rounds of the mag, drop it, then have another malfunction in the next mag. You could have 20 to 30 or more rounds just laying on the ground to clear a malfunction. That is a lot of wasted rounds in a fight that could very well save your life or a teammate's.
I think the BAD addresses this issue better than a complete lower approach.
So you have some trigger time with AXTS products?
I'll admit it's a bit of a juggling act to clear an AR, but I don't like the fact that using this system gives me no control over when and where I drop the magazine.
Robb Jensen
01-06-11, 21:48
Armageddon, Armageddon, Armageddon!
Your left hand if you still have two hands can grab the magazine while depressing the magazine catch button so you don't drop the magazine. THEN you can continue pressing the magazine catch button while pulling on the charging handle with your left hand and it'll lock the bolt to the rear. If you have a double feed once with a magazine it's very likely to happen again. Returning the magazine that just caused a double feed back into the gun is dumb. Get a fresh magazine. This is why most carry a spare magazine with their concealed firearm. It isn't because they think they'll need the rounds they may just have to dump the soup sandwich and get a fresh magazine in there.
OR
You can lock the bolt to the rear the conventional way BEFORE removing the magazine.
militarymoron
01-06-11, 21:49
but I don't like the fact that using this system gives me no control over when and where I drop the magazine.
how does it take control away from you? if you want to drop the mag, press the mag release button. if you don't want to drop the mag, don't press the mag release button.
So you have some trigger time with AXTS products?
No I do not, but I don't need to have hands on time to understand the functionality. I am not saying it is not a good design, I just feel in order to use it, one has to drop the mag. So the user has to try to make a decision as to whether or not he/she should employ it. I think that alone will eat up the 24.66% time savings. I do think KAC did it better in keeping the two functions separate. Like Sgt_Gold said, I want to decide if I drop my mag or not. I guess I could with the AXTS lower too, but if I have to decide, then what is the point of the lower?
you can still lock the bolt back with the mag in the well with the ADAC lower the 'normal way' as the bolt catch still functions the same on the left side.
Excellent. I (and obviously others) assumed that using the bolt catch would activate the mag release as well, and not function independently anymore. Thanks for setting me straight.
No I do not, but I don't need to have hands on time to understand the functionality.
Without trying to hurt any feelings here, how familiar are you with the M4 and various malfunctions? Without looking it up, could you clearly explain them to people? There seems to be a disconnect between the information you are stating and the item being discussed, and I'm not sure if its because you don't understand the subject, or you don't understand the item.
Excellent. I (and obviously others) assumed that using the bolt catch would activate the mag release as well, and not function independently anymore.
Maybe that is what is confusing people.
militarymoron
01-06-11, 22:25
I do not think it is practical in the sense that you do not always need to remove your mag to clear a malfunction such as an FTE or FTF. Heck even a stovepipe. I think this only comes in handy when you have a double feed, right? In those cases you want to drop the mag.
it depends on what you do when you encounter a malfunction. if the gun fails to fire, you apply immediate action - tap, rack (or tap, pull on mag, rack), which doesn't involve locking the bolt back or dropping the mag, so up until then, the ADAC function has not affected you.
if it doesn't fire, then you've got something like a double feed (failure to extract), charging handle impingement or bolt override where remedial action is needed in which the first step is ripping out the mag, then manipulating the charging handle or locking the bolt to the rear. that's when the ADAC feature is used. it allows you to do it without changing your firing grip on the weapon.
if you address your malfunctions a different way, then you may not find the ADAC feature useful. it's not for everyone. as a left hander, i can't use the ADAC function, since i manipulate the bolt catch with my left hand anyway.
Without trying to hurt any feelings here, how familiar are you with the M4 and various malfunctions? Without looking it up, could you clearly explain them to people? There seems to be a disconnect between the information you are stating and the item being discussed, and I'm not sure if its because you don't understand the subject, or you don't understand the item.
No feeling are being hurt. I am new to the forum and I have not disclosed my qualifications. I spent many years in the Navy as an instructor (0812) as a Gunner's Mate in the Brown Water Navy attached to ACU4 and then SBU20 Little Creek, VA. I have fired 10's of thousands of rounds through M16A2's, M4A1's, MK18's, MK12 Mod 0, etc. I have experienced plenty of malfunctions. Being the Gunner's Mate, I was the one who had to determine the cause of said malfunction. I think I am fully qualified to have an opinion on this subject.
Like I have said, I think the design is a good idea in theory. I think the .mil will have none of it though. Why spend the money on replacing lowers when the troops can by a $25 part they can install themselves if the troops want to.
And having spent plenty of time in the military, I can tell you for certain that they want a full and complete package and not a lower. Also a complete rifle from a single manufacturer.
I am surprised I haven't seen this before. I like the idea, but I don't want a proprietary lower. Would love to run this thing through it's paces.
No feeling are being hurt. I am new to the forum and I have not disclosed my qualifications. I spent many years in the Navy as an instructor (0812) as a Gunner's Mate in the Brown Water Navy attached to ACU4 and then SBU20 Little Creek, VA. I have fired 10's of thousands of rounds through M16A2's, M4A1's, MK18's, MK12 Mod 0, etc. I have experienced plenty of malfunctions. Being the Gunner's Mate, I was the one who had to determine the cause of said malfunction. I think I am fully qualified to have an opinion on this subject.
Like I have said, I think the design is a good idea in theory. I think the .mil will have none of it though. Why spend the money on replacing lowers when the troops can by a $25 part they can install themselves if the troops want to.
And having spent plenty of time in the military, I can tell you for certain that they want a full and complete package and not a lower. Also a complete rifle from a single manufacturer.
I am not trying to nit pick but the overwhelming inaccuracy of your statement in regards to the military only wanting to buy "full or complete package" tended to stand out at least to me....esp. since right above that statement you say you have extensive time on the MK 12's and MK 18's yet anybody who has the least idea about those two rifles understands that the end product is a culmination of numerous different company's kit....Crane is not a Mfg. and when they take lmt 10.5" barrels, run KAC rails and sights, colt bcg's and perhaps a colt lower, and form a MK 18, that is certainly not a complete rifle already built by one single outfit or company. MK 12's run heavy doses of ARMs, PRI tubes/KAC rails and sights, random stocks be it a Sopmod or an A1 or A2, OPs muzzle device, etc....so obviously again, one of the military's rifles is a sourced build using numerous diff. mfg'rs kit.
If either Colt, LMT, FN, or KAC make MK 18's and MK 12's as complete guns using only their kit/parts and thereby own the design and can call it their rifle, then feel free to correct me.
I am not trying to nit pick but the overwhelming inaccuracy of your statement in regards to the military only wanting to buy "full or complete package" tended to stand out at least to me....esp. since right above that statement you say you have extensive time on the MK 12's and MK 18's yet anybody who has the least idea about those two rifles understands that the end product is a culmination of numerous different company's kit....Crane is not a Mfg. and when they take lmt 10.5" barrels, run KAC rails and sights, colt bcg's and perhaps a colt lower, and form a MK 18, that is certainly not a complete rifle already built by one single outfit or company. MK 12's run heavy doses of ARMs, PRI tubes/KAC rails and sights, random stocks be it a Sopmod or an A1 or A2, OPs muzzle device, etc....so obviously again, one of the military's rifles is a sourced build using numerous diff. mfg'rs kit.
If either Colt, LMT, FN, or KAC make MK 18's and MK 12's as complete guns using only their kit/parts and thereby own the design and can call it their rifle, then feel free to correct me.
You're correct about that point, however the .mil is not looking to have Crane build out ambi rifles for the entire military force. In instances like this, they would want an entire package from a single source. Wether or not that single source decides to use various parts form different mfgs, is a whole other issue. If you re-read my statement, I am only stating my experiences with the platform in response to Stick's question.
Magic_Salad0892
01-07-11, 08:08
Maybe somebody doesn't understand that even though it's available as a complete lower, it's also just a SINGLE PIN. I'm pretty sure that upon release they'll sell this part separately.
I'd get one.
What I don't understand, is in a FTE, FTF, why would you even be trying to lock the bolt back? Just rack and charge. No reason to rip out the magazine. A double feed is what this is specifically designed for. (I think, not to speak for the company or anything.)
If it breaks? Well... it is a single pin, that's pretty easy to remove, and it doesn't impede the function of the takedown pins so it can be removed without armorer support.
No downsides I can see. However, no way in hell would I buy an entire lower receiver for it.
I like it.
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-07-11, 08:19
Maybe somebody doesn't understand that even though it's available as a complete lower, it's also just a SINGLE PIN. I'm pretty sure that upon release they'll sell this part separately.
The pin reminded me of:
(I hate not being able to direct post pics) (http://www.bestweekever.tv/bwe/images/2009/08/inrodwetrust.jpg)
For a little levity.
militarymoron
01-07-11, 08:35
it's a pin that fits into a hole that a standard receiver doesn't have, so you can't retrofit a standard lower with it.
i understand that many won't want to buy a whole receiver just for a new function (unless it's the KAC E3 receiver) if you don't need another one, but it's just another option if someone's in the market to get a new receiver.
more choices = win for the consumer.
Jay Cunningham
01-07-11, 08:51
What I don't understand, is in a FTE, FTF, why would you even be trying to lock the bolt back? Just rack and charge. No reason to rip out the magazine. A double feed is what this is specifically designed for. (I think, not to speak for the company or anything.)
You are in the process of performing remedial malfunction clearance - smack/rack didn't fix the gun.
The first step of a rip drill is to lock the bolt back - this removes spring tension off of the internals of the gun. When you next move to rip the mag out it allows rounds and cases to fall free. Attempting to rip the mag out first can be tough and can sometimes damage the feedlips.
Magic_Salad0892
01-07-11, 09:15
You are in the process of performing remedial malfunction clearance - smack/rack didn't fix the gun.
The first step of a rip drill is to lock the bolt back - this removes spring tension off of the internals of the gun. When you next move to rip the mag out it allows rounds and cases to fall free. Attempting to rip the mag out first can be tough and can sometimes damage the feedlips.
It doesn't look like this device puts any stress on the magazine, so it remains free falling, while your hand works the CH.
Do you think that damaging the magazine (that should be out of service anyway, IMHO) could still happen without physical force being applied?
Jay Cunningham
01-07-11, 09:18
I'm not sure I understand your question - how have you been taught to perform remedial malfunction clearance?
Magic_Salad0892
01-07-11, 09:22
When you say ''remedial malfunction'' are you referring specifically to double feeds or bolt override?
In the event of a bolt override wouldn't you drop the magazine anyway? (Empty case between bolt and CH, as described in https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=70806, or live round, etc.)
Sorry, if I just went full retard, but what problem are you proposing this device would cause?
I don't have a dog in the fight, I'm just pointing out what I'm noticing.
Jay Cunningham
01-07-11, 09:29
Sorry, if I just went full retard, but what problem are you proposing this device would cause?
I didn't propose that it would cause any problem - what are you talking about?
Magic_Salad0892
01-07-11, 09:31
You are in the process of performing remedial malfunction clearance - smack/rack didn't fix the gun.
The first step of a rip drill is to lock the bolt back - this removes spring tension off of the internals of the gun. When you next move to rip the mag out it allows rounds and cases to fall free. Attempting to rip the mag out first can be tough and can sometimes damage the feedlips.
Okay, sorry. I must have misread or something.
I thought this quote was implying that this device could damage the magazine or something.
Sorry for the confusion. :suicide:
ETA: Sorry for cramming up the thread.
I think it is perfect the competition/3 gun world. But for a military/LE application, I am not convinced. But novel idea none-the-less. For .mil/LE, I feel the KAC design is king, and the B.A.D. is right behind it, IMO.
my65swede@yahoo.com
01-07-11, 12:48
https://axtsweapons.com/
I dont know if all would aggree that remedial action for a right handed shooter has always been a pain on the M4 platform, giving up the strong hand grip to be able to lock the bolt to the rear and clear the malfunction, then reaquiring your strong hand grip and getting the gun back into action.
This was always a drill that was time consuming more for a right handed shooter than a lefty as we used our trigger finger to reach the bolt catch, I had a chance to play with the A-DAC lower and i think it is the lower to have right now. It will require a little getting used to but i think it is the best solution for a right handed shooter.
what do you think?I have to say that being an Army veteran myself and practically growing up with this weapon in my hand I have to say this is a definite and very welcome plus. Josh is colleague of mine in the industry and I know him well. Recently I had a chance to play around with this lower and I was surprised at how easy it is to use. At first my muscle memory retarded me a little, but after just a few minutes of practice it was easy to master. I read some members think this is fine for 3 gun but not for military use, I beg to differ and I'd like to see one good reason why not. From the firts time I picked up an M16A1 many years ago I couldn't help thinking the bolt catch and the procedures associated with it were a poor design that left much to be desired (a royal pain in the butt IMHO) One thing I really appreciate is that he used the mag catch and didn't go with an add on lever that could break or clutter things up. Nothing about maintaining the weapon system has changed and the look is still familiar. I've read some of your comments and concerns about interference with the magazine and I can honestly tell you have no worries like that with this lower. The beauty of his system is that there are no external mods, everything is internal and the common mechanical features still finction as intended. I always hated having to lower my rifle from my line of sight to clear a jammed/stuck magazine or a double feed. With this new lower you don't have to and applying things like S.P.O.R.T.S. is still used as second nature-remedial/immediate action is simply faster. I agree with Looey x2: the A-DAC lower is the lower to have right now. The only thing that leaves me wanting now-is when do I get mine!
I am surprised I haven't seen this before. I like the idea, but I don't want a proprietary lower. Would love to run this thing through it's paces.
Perhaps you've seen something similar, although it doesn't look available for purchase: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=66389
Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tb6Z1sBvlqI
I remember that one. I meant this specific item.
Perhaps you've seen something similar, although it doesn't look available for purchase: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=66389
Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tb6Z1sBvlqI
Magic_Salad0892
01-08-11, 09:00
.. I remember that thread. Which one came first?
Seth Harness
01-08-11, 09:36
Josh and his new lower just went public in the last couple days(1/8/11). I have been waiting a long time for this lower to hit, its been in the works for some time now.
I can and will attest to Josh's craftsmanship & attention to detail. He is extremely smart and very mechanically minded. Hes also meticulous and methodical with everything he does.
Josh machines the FRS ACT buffers for me and all have been perfect without exception.
Glad to see it Josh, you deserve any and all good things that come from this...
Seth H.
.. I remember that thread. Which one came first?
I can tell you that I've been talking to Josh about these lowers since before the other product was announced here but that doesn't mean one copied the other.
militarymoron
01-08-11, 10:03
.. I remember that thread. Which one came first?
josh has kept me in the loop with his developments since december '09 - more than a year ago, when he presented this design to me (and i signed an NDA). however, it's been kept under wraps quite well.
however, i think that this is just a case of parallel development - seeing a need and working on a solution. the execution is different.
Interesting to also note the markings for the 45* safeties.
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/LEFT-SIDE.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/RIGHT-SIDE.jpg
josh has kept me in the loop with his developments since december '09 - more than a year ago, when he presented this design to me (and i signed an NDA). however, it's been kept under wraps quite well.
however, i think that this is just a case of parallel development - seeing a need and working on a solution. the execution is different.
I went back and looked through my emails and I have some from around that same time too.
I'm kind of surprised there isn't more chatter on this. maybe we're not explaining it right.
Robb Jensen
01-08-11, 12:24
Josh and his new lower just went public in the last couple days(1/8/11). I have been waiting a long time for this lower to hit, its been in the works for some time now.
I can and will attest to Josh's craftsmanship & attention to detail. He is extremely smart and very mechanically minded. Hes also meticulous and methodical with everything he does.
Josh machines the FRS ACT buffers for me and all have been perfect without exception.
Glad to see it Josh, you deserve any and all good things that come from this...
Seth H.
Yes the quality of the A-DAC lower that I T&E'd would rival any lower receiver that I've ever laid my hands on. I handled two receivers and T&E'd one of them.
Im all for the industry moving forward in any and all things that can make a shooter and his weapon more effective. But here is my question for this lower, and other products like it. Is this product more targeted at civilian shooters and maybe people that only want one AR to run? Here is my concern about this sort of thing. there are many rifles and carbines that military and LE use. when the manual of arms is different from similar weapons, it gets hard to effectively use different variations of the platform, since you do different actions with different mods. thus you develop training scars from one weapon, that hurts your operating another like gun. for example a LE department buys these lowers, an officer trains with it, but then he gets sent to afghanistan with his reserve MP unit using a stock M4. If he trained more with one system then the other, doesnt that have a negative effect? its like why have an Ambi safety on your personal gun, if you cant have one on your issue or department weapon.or what if you are forced to use a teammate's weapon? It seems like the more we stretch the limits of the AR-15/M-16 weapons family, the more it stands out we need a whole new weapon with this stuff all thought out. What do do you guys think? Its a question Ive been wondering , having tried a lot of these new products.
Magic_Salad0892
01-08-11, 13:49
Interesting to also note the markings for the 45* safeties.
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/LEFT-SIDE.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/RIGHT-SIDE.jpg
That... is cooler than hell...
I like the 45 degree safety. Is that part of the lower or is that a proprietary selector design?
We (Battle Arms Development) make the 45 degree short throw selector ;)
We announced the AXTS 45 degree receivers in another thread. In addition to being designed for the 45 degree short throw selector (with correct 45 degree FIRE markings), it features the ingenious, magazine release actuated bolt lock.
Even before we came out with our 90 degree modular selector, we had been talking to Josh at AXTS, we too signed an NDA. We've seen what Josh had done and been impressed, not just with the model that's being discussed in this thread, but another lower which has not been unveiled yet and we can't talk about. So much so, instead of developing a fully ambidextrous lower ourselves, we talked to Josh about licensing his designs.
Josh and we (Battle Arms Dev.) have a great and ongoing working relationship. As a small and relatively new company, we like to work with other like-minded companies on innovative designs, AXTS is one of them. Josh had a part to play in our ambidextrous selectors, just as our ambidextrous selectors, both the 90 degree and 45 degree short throw, have a part to play in his receivers.
We will see more AXTS products, some to be announced very soon. It's always been our contention that it does not make sense to use a piece of gear that constantly disagrees with you. Most of the receivers made, till recently, have not significantly changed since the earliest Colt commercial AR15s. There will be more receivers with fully ambidextrous controls introduced this year, and we think this is a movement that's been too long in coming, and can hardly wait :D
militarymoron
01-08-11, 15:20
Im all for the industry moving forward in any and all things that can make a shooter and his weapon more effective. <snip>...Its a question Ive been wondering , having tried a lot of these new products.
those are good points and valid concerns. but i think that progress and product develop should not be halted for fear of change.
i think that if you use an M4 for a living (LE or mil), and are only allowed a particular configuration on a duty weapon, then it makes sense to keep your personal weapon the same.
for folks who don't have that concern, then it's up to them.
products like the magpul BAD, bad-ass or KAC E3 lower are non-standard, and change the way you manipulate the controls on the M4, but that doesn't stop those manufacturers from constantly innovating .
as a lefty, i've been waiting for a long time for the AR platform to become more ambidextrous, and it's slowly happening. as more people (both left and right handed) realize the advantages of being able to operate the weapon with either hand, the more these features will eventually become the standard.
also, i think that people are able to adapt. it doesn't take too long to re-familiarize yourself when you change weapons, if you're used to that sort of thing. if i'm shooting my glock a lot, then switch to a 1911 or BHP, i might sometimes forget to flip off the safety the first couple of times. after that, it becomes natural again for the rest of the time. what your LE officer is issued a glock for duty, but is then issued an M9 when he does his military deployment?
i sometimes shoot an AK, FAL or HK instead of an M4, and all those are pretty different in terms of manipulation etc. however, i find that if i've keep practiced enough with each of them to get familiar with how they're supposed to be operated, it doesn't take long to re-acquaint myself again.
I think it is perfect the competition/3 gun world. But for a military/LE application, I am not convinced. But novel idea none-the-less. For .mil/LE, I feel the KAC design is king, and the B.A.D. is right behind it, IMO.
Well i would have to disagree about it being a three gun competition tool, as a tool that will keep a gunfighter in the fight and help him deal with malfunctions a lot quicker i would pick the whole A-DAC lower over the KAC any day. I have used the KAC and the A-DAC lowers quality are the same, but now we have a platform that can get rid of a problem that i think the original M4 platform was not able to fix for the right handed shooter until now(having to give up the strong hand grip for remedial action).
The Bad Lever is a piece of metal that you attached to your bolt catch that runs in front of your trigger and is held by a little screw, can you really say that you would want to have that in a combat environment? something that might come loose and bump your trigger, instead of something that remains internal?
what you asked earlier about immediate (FTE or FTF) brother that is just and immediate action, when you have to deal with remedial action is when this tool allows you to get the gun back into action faster that any lever out there. you use the same lever to lock the bolt to the rear and then you use it to release the magazine to clear the chamber.
A bolt over ride is a little different, you wont be able to lock the bolt to the rear until you remove that spent casing. a gerber would probably be the best tool available for that problem, we use it to push the bolt carrier to the rear and allow that spent casing out.
I'm having a hard time figuring out how this helps the competition shooter at all, frankly. I suppose we all want to be able to clear malfunctions quickly and that is a constant regardless of application but I would think that if one has a doublefeed and is really at that high a level of competition their standings for that stage are going to be drastically hurt, and their overall standings at least impacted. and I am not sure that the 10-20% time reduction this device offers is really going to change that.
I have heard the BAD lever referred to as a "competition" device as well, which makes even less sense and even more exposes the ignorance of competition shown by the person saying/posting it.
This new lower in the configuration being discussed here is all about reducing the time it takes to resolve a doublefeed, and allowing for a safer SOP when clearing the gun. If you find one of these lowers in your hands and are not familiar with the way it works, you can still use your old SOP for everything.
Any word yet on pricing? Or when/where they'll be available to buy?
Seth Harness
01-09-11, 14:19
Any word yet on pricing? Or when/where they'll be available to buy?
Looks like there is some idea of price (http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=124&t=522422&page=1) on TOS.
Looks like there is some idea of price (http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=124&t=522422&page=1) on TOS.
Thanks.
$169 with the AXTS magazine release actuated bolt lock components.
The receivers will be available in both 45 degree and 90 degree format, we're working on receiver + selector bundle price now :)
axtsweapons
01-10-11, 13:44
Hey guys this is Josh from AXTS. Just letting you know I am available for any questions on the A-DAC lower receiver. Just shoot and I will do my best to answer any questions or concerns.
Hope to meet some of you at SHOT it's coming soon!
Looks promising.... Wonder if it's worth the price. It's basically a built in B.A.D. Lever right
Robb Jensen
01-10-11, 14:20
Hey guys this is Josh from AXTS. Just letting you know I am available for any questions on the A-DAC lower receiver. Just shoot and I will do my best to answer any questions or concerns.
Hope to meet some of you at SHOT it's coming soon!
Welcome to M4C Josh! :D
militarymoron
01-10-11, 14:44
Looks promising.... Wonder if it's worth the price. It's basically a built in B.A.D. Lever right
it's actually the exact opposite of a BAD lever. the BAD lever allows you to RELEASE the bolt from its locked-back position. the A-DAC feature allows you to LOCK the bolt back by pressing the magazine release button.
Actually the BAD let's you do both.
So I know with my BAD I press down when charging to lock back then up to release. With this lower can I also release or is it just to lock it back ? I may have just gotten a bit confused ..
militarymoron
01-10-11, 15:38
you're right - i forgot you can do both with the BAD.
LOL - my bad.
axtsweapons
01-10-11, 15:51
So I know with my BAD I press down when charging to lock back then up to release. With this lower can I also release or is it just to lock it back ? I may have just gotten a bit confused ..
The BAD Lever allows you to do both. Lifting up on it as you pull back on the charging handle locks the bolt open. Pushing down on it drops a locked bolt into battery. The A-DAC is only intended to lock the bolt open as you depress the mag release button while pulling back the charging handle. This gives you the main benefit of the BAD Lever with less training, and it's faster too!
justin_247
01-11-11, 01:52
This gadget is nifty! I do hope that a version is released that works in existing lowers.
The "ideal" lower, in my opinion, would have the bolt paddle on the left-side completely eliminated and replaced by a dual-role mag release/bolt catch that is mirrored on both sides, combined with a POF/KAC/Mega-style bolt release paddle on each side, as well.
That said, until such a lower is released, my opinion stands that the mack daddy of lower receivers is the Bushmaster ambi-lower design that's sitting over at RRA rotting in their files.
RetreatHell
01-11-11, 14:33
So I haven't read this entire thread, just the first page and watched the video, because I'm a lazy beeyatch like that. But this thing looks pretty badass to me. I've never given two shits about releasing the bolt easier, just locking it back. That's literally the ONLY reason I like using the BAD Lever at all, other than that I honestly wouldn't use 'em.
Sooooo... How much do they cost and where can I buy it? Like i said, I haven't read most of this thread, sorry 'bout that;) But unless price is crazy high I'd like to buy one of these new thangies pretty soon... Like right now.:) That way maybe I can run it in my upcoming LAV carbine course here in a few weeks.
So I haven't read this entire thread, just the first page and watched the video, because I'm a lazy beeyatch like that. But this thing looks pretty badass to me. I've never given two shits about releasing the bolt easier, just locking it back. That's literally the ONLY reason I like using the BAD Lever at all, other than that I honestly wouldn't use 'em.
Sooooo... How much do they cost and where can I buy it? Like i said, I haven't read most of this thread, sorry 'bout that;) But unless price is crazy high I'd like to buy one of these new thangies pretty soon... Like right now.:) That way maybe I can run it in my upcoming LAV carbine course here in a few weeks.
They're $169 for a lower that is stripped except for the proprietary components, and they'll be available in ~8 weeks.
This info came from member axtsweapons via PM. I hope he doesn't mind me posting it openly.
I would also love to be able to order one now.
axtsweapons
01-11-11, 16:34
This gadget is nifty! I do hope that a version is released that works in existing lowers.
The "ideal" lower, in my opinion, would have the bolt paddle on the left-side completely eliminated and replaced by a dual-role mag release/bolt catch that is mirrored on both sides, combined with a POF/KAC/Mega-style bolt release paddle on each side, as well.
That said, until such a lower is released, my opinion stands that the mack daddy of lower receivers is the Bushmaster ambi-lower design that's sitting over at RRA rotting in their files.
Justin,
I like the way you think! Wait to you see what we unveil at SHOT!
Justin,
I like the way you think! Wait to you see what we unveil at SHOT!
I'm definitely intrigued now.
axtsweapons
01-11-11, 20:22
Just added a couple pages to the web site
Design: How it works
https://www.axtsweapons.com/design
Manual of Arms Comparison
http://www.axtsweapons.com/ManualOfArmsComparison.pdf
That said, until such a lower is released, my opinion stands that the mack daddy of lower receivers is the Bushmaster ambi-lower design that's sitting over at RRA rotting in their files.
...And RRA's made it clear they have no intention to release a 5.56 version since their current 5.56 lower is 'mil spec'. :(
-B
Robb Jensen
01-11-11, 21:48
So I haven't read this entire thread, just the first page and watched the video, because I'm a lazy beeyatch like that. But this thing looks pretty badass to me. I've never given two shits about releasing the bolt easier, just locking it back. That's literally the ONLY reason I like using the BAD Lever at all, other than that I honestly wouldn't use 'em.
Sooooo... How much do they cost and where can I buy it? Like i said, I haven't read most of this thread, sorry 'bout that;) But unless price is crazy high I'd like to buy one of these new thangies pretty soon... Like right now.:) That way maybe I can run it in my upcoming LAV carbine course here in a few weeks.
Paul it'll be worth waiting to see what AXTS has at SHOT. :D
justin_247
01-12-11, 02:56
Justin,
I like the way you think! Wait to you see what we unveil at SHOT!
It's official: my curiosity has peaked!
http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/WEVO%20II/IMG_0696-A-1100-Stick.jpg
Just from and R&D standpoint I'd like to know how many rounds have been used testing this device. Tell me that the inventor has 50k through a rifle with this device and I'll begin to think it has some merit. The inside of an AR is a crowded place, and I've seen rifles lock up for all sorts of different reasons. Adding something to the inside that wasn't originally there makes me skeptical to say the least.
Another issue is the fact that my uncle will NEVER let me put one of these things in one of his rifles. That alone relegates this part to 'gamer' status. I'm not knocking it as a tool for the action shooter, but it has no place in my tool box. I don't need my mental or physical muscle memory trying to figure out which SPORTS drill to do when I need it most.
BTW, watching that video made me think of something. In 13 years of military training, I've NEVER racked my weapon three times during a malfunction drill. Once is enough thank you.
Armageddon, Armageddon, Armageddon!
Your left hand if you still have two hands can grab the magazine while depressing the magazine catch button so you don't drop the magazine. THEN you can continue pressing the magazine catch button while pulling on the charging handle with your left hand and it'll lock the bolt to the rear. If you have a double feed once with a magazine it's very likely to happen again. Returning the magazine that just caused a double feed back into the gun is dumb. Get a fresh magazine. This is why most carry a spare magazine with their concealed firearm. It isn't because they think they'll need the rounds they may just have to dump the soup sandwich and get a fresh magazine in there.
OR
You can lock the bolt to the rear the conventional way BEFORE removing the magazine.
KRAZYKIDDJOE
01-13-11, 02:46
I agree with Justin, I wish someone would just release an AR Lower with the bolt catch/release located in front of the trigger/behind the magwell. RRA isn't going to do it. Bushmaster put it on the ACR, I'm not running out and buying one of those anytime soon....
I look forward to seeing what else is released at SHOT...
Thanks guys, this product seems interesting... but I'm hoping for a more refined dedicated lower if I'm replacing anything I own now. I understand the "for those in the market", but if Above lower was released I would replace every lower I own except the registered SBR's, and probably SBR one of those as well...
KKJ
I don't need my mental or physical muscle memory trying to figure out which SPORTS drill to do when I need it most.
Two things
This has nothing to do with SPORTS
SPORTS is outdated
BTW, watching that video made me think of something. In 13 years of military training, I've NEVER racked my weapon three times during a malfunction drill. Once is enough thank you.
Fortunately this device does not connect to the charging handle so you can wrack the handle as many, or as few, times as you want.
I've NEVER racked my weapon three times during a malfunction drill. Once is enough thank you.
That answers everything for a lot of us.
And what is that supposed to mean?
That answers everything for a lot of us.
CaptainDooley
01-13-11, 20:58
It means that based on your response, we know that TTPs have changed since you were taught an AR and most of us that see the value in it understand why you don't.
And what is that supposed to mean?
Robb Jensen
01-13-11, 21:08
I'm 100% in agreement with you Stickman.
Just noticed that Rainier Arms has a pre-order sale on these lowers.
Dirtyboy333
01-15-11, 01:00
interesting and innovative piece but i think it just adds to confusion under stress. You may not want to drop the mag when u want your bolt locked back to clear a malf and as i see you can still just use the normal bolt catch i think that if you train using this feature your muscle memory (especially under stress) is going to make you drop the mag during any malfunction out of habit even when your only trying to lock the bolt. I don't have a BAD but would definitely favor it. Neat piece but not for me.
justin_247
01-15-11, 05:34
interesting and innovative piece but i think it just adds to confusion under stress. You may not want to drop the mag when u want your bolt locked back to clear a malf and as i see you can still just use the normal bolt catch i think that if you train using this feature your muscle memory (especially under stress) is going to make you drop the mag during any malfunction out of habit even when your only trying to lock the bolt. I don't have a BAD but would definitely favor it. Neat piece but not for me.
I'm confused - in what situation would you lock the bolt back but wouldn't drop the mag?
The only time, outside of clearing a malfunction, that I lock the bolt back is just before I insert my first mag of the day... it makes it seat a little more easily.
I was wondering the same thing. What kind of malfunction am I clearing where I need to lock the bolt to the rear but not remove the magazine? What is the next step in the TTP for that?
axtsweapons
01-17-11, 14:22
Just wanted to let everyone know that the new lower we will be unveiling at SHOT will be at the Samson Manufacturing
Booth. #20327
I look forward to meeting you there!
Check back often for pics and updates.
justin_247
01-19-11, 12:23
Anybody got pictures of the new ambi-lowers that AXTS alluded to, yet?
I see that S&W and CMMG are both releasing ambi-lowers. Pictures of either of those would be welcome, too.
Smuckatelli
01-19-11, 12:47
I'm 100% in agreement with you Stickman.
Hey Robb,
Next time you take it out could you run immediate & remedial actions on it? I see the value for remedial, I'm wondering if it would screw up the muscle memory for immediate.
I am anxiously awaiting some pics of the ambi lower. I wonder if it will also hold the bolt open when you drop the mag and pull the charging handle.
Just from and R&D standpoint I'd like to know how many rounds have been used testing this device. Tell me that the inventor has 50k through a rifle with this device and I'll begin to think it has some merit. The inside of an AR is a crowded place, and I've seen rifles lock up for all sorts of different reasons. Adding something to the inside that wasn't originally there makes me skeptical to say the least.
Another issue is the fact that my uncle will NEVER let me put one of these things in one of his rifles. That alone relegates this part to 'gamer' status. I'm not knocking it as a tool for the action shooter, but it has no place in my tool box. I don't need my mental or physical muscle memory trying to figure out which SPORTS drill to do when I need it most.
BTW, watching that video made me think of something. In 13 years of military training, I've NEVER racked my weapon three times during a malfunction drill. Once is enough thank you.
I ended up putting only about 800 rounds or so thru the Lower by the time i gave it back to Josh, it didn't give me any issues. I would love to keep getting the round count up there if josh lets me :D
AXTS A-DAC vid from SHOT Show, .308 and .223, fully ambidextrous receivers we've been hinting about for weeks :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UkYrMiNYPk
These receivers have our 90 degree selectors, they will be available for 45 degree selectors ;)
If I heard right, the guy said they also have it for the 338
axtsweapons
01-20-11, 00:17
If I heard right, the guy said they also have it for the 338
You heard right. But this was a slip-up by our marketing guy. He meant to say "308". This receiver will be available in both the AR-15 and AR-10 platforms.
I'll be swinging by for sure.
Just wanted to let everyone know that the new lower we will be unveiling at SHOT will be at the Samson Manufacturing
Booth. #20327
I look forward to meeting you there!
Check back often for pics and updates.
Robb Jensen
01-20-11, 01:58
You heard right. But this was a slip-up by our marketing guy. He meant to say "308". This receiver will be available in both the AR-15 and AR-10 platforms.
You could make one in .338 Federal ! ;)
If you look close you'll see a bolt release on the right side of the receiver as well. What's not to like?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/Robb-1-1.jpg
justin_247
01-20-11, 02:15
You could make one in .338 Federal ! ;)
If you look close you'll see a bolt release on the right side of the receiver as well. What's not to like?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/Robb-1-1.jpg
*WANT*
Rattlehead
01-20-11, 02:16
Robb, I've been waiting to see that same picture 'unblurred' for the past month.
Now that I can finally see it, I'm looking forward to buying one.
Very nice. Any idea when the ambi lowers will be available to order or even pre-order?
I'm also curious which mag pattern the .308 lower will be.
Robb Jensen
01-20-11, 09:10
Very nice. Any idea when the ambi lowers will be available to order or even pre-order?
I'm also curious which mag pattern the .308 lower will be.
AXTS has some .308 lowers here at SHOT. They are the SR25 platform mag and use DPMS 308 uppers.
AXTS has some .308 lowers here at SHOT. They are the SR25 platform mag and use DPMS 308 uppers.
Nice. Thanks Robb.
So has anybody released an ambi lower at SHOT?
-B
axtsweapons
01-24-11, 20:39
Here is a link to a pdf file giving a little background on the development of the A-DAC. It also shows some CAD models of our 100% ambi A-DAC 15 (5.56) lower receiver and highlights all the controls and patent pending features.
http://www.axtsweapons.com/axtsADACoverview.pdf
Seth Harness
01-25-11, 22:01
Heres the latest on Josh manipulating the controls on his new true ambi lower.
Thanks Josh, great looking lower bro...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doPOSWg_Vk4
justin_247
01-26-11, 12:35
Heres the latest on Josh manipulating the controls on his new true ambi lower.
Thanks Josh, great looking lower bro...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doPOSWg_Vk4
This...
is...
AWESOME!
I look forward to being your customer!
Here is a link to a pdf file giving a little background on the development of the A-DAC. It also shows some CAD models of our 100% ambi A-DAC 15 (5.56) lower receiver and highlights all the controls and patent pending features.
http://www.axtsweapons.com/axtsADACoverview.pdf
This looks like a great product! Nice job!!
axtsweapons
01-29-11, 13:26
The mil spec forged lower with the A-DAC feature built in is the A-DAC-F
The 5.56 NATO 100% ambi billet lower is the AX556
The 7.62 NATO 100% ambi billet lower is the AX762
Here are some pictures, enjoy!
A-DAC-F
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/Duffypoo/ADAC45degreereceiver.jpg
AX556
http://www.axtsweapons.com/pics/AX556/AX556-2.jpghttp://www.axtsweapons.com/pics/AX556/AX556-4.jpg
AX762
http://www.axtsweapons.com/pics/AX762/AX762-3.jpghttp://www.axtsweapons.com/pics/AX762/AX762-10.jpghttp://www.axtsweapons.com/pics/AX762/AX762-7.jpg
axtsweapons
03-08-11, 00:57
ETA , Pricing and additional info on the AX556 is now up on our website.:D http://axtsweapons.com
axtsweapons
09-03-11, 18:07
We are very pleased to announce that we are working on our first retail run of AX556’s that will ship on October 3rd. Our website will accept pre-orders for the AX556 at 8:00 AM Pacific Standard Time on Saturday, September 3rd. To give as many people as possible the opportunity to get an AX556 sooner than later we will be limiting the order quantity to 1 per customer for the initial production run.
For those of you whose orders make the first run your card will be charged a 50% deposit shortly after your order is placed (this is to help us determine the number of committed buyers for the first run so we know how many to machine). The remaining balance will be charged to your card when your order ships. For those of you whose orders don’t make the first run we’ll be charging your card for the full amount due when your order ships.
We are offering $20 off every lower receiver BAD ASS selector combo. So whether you order an AX556, A-DAC-F or any number of both you get the discount for each combo.
We have implemented quite a number of design changes improving ergonomics after a lengthy test period and input from many industry professionals. Check out the product page for images of the final design REV.
http://axtsweapons.com/products/AX556
Here is a link to our Facebook page for those interested in the product development process and a contest to get $50.00 off an AX556. Whoever can make the most comprehensive list of changes and the associated ergonomic improvements for each wins!
http://www.facebook.com/pages/AXTS-Weapons/106498542772075
For an in depth review of the A-DAC-F by MM of militarymorons.com
http://www.militarymorons.com/weapons/ar.uppers4.html#adac
Here is another awesome photo by STICKMAN of the AX556 in action!
http://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/298327_150359488385980_106498542772075_280041_883431_n.jpg
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