H buffer or Spikes ST-T2 on a 14.5" middy? [Archive]

USNsheepdog

01-07-11, 00:18

I'm going to be buying a 14.5" mid-length upper from BCM and I'm not sure which buffer would be better go with. I know the H buffers cause the bolt to cycle slower, reducing recoil and increasing accuracy. But if the buffer is too heavy, the rifle will have a hard time extracting the spent cartridge or locking the bolt to the rear if shooting weak ammo. I read on "the chart" http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&single=true&gid=5&output=html that the H buffer is best used in carbine length rifles, but what about mid length gas systems? I also hear the Spikes ST-T2 buffer is pretty badass but not much as to why it's badass, just that it is. Is their buffer meant to work best for carbine length gas systems or mid-length? What would be the better buffer to get for my rifle being the 14.5" middy?

Whootsinator

01-07-11, 00:22

Ideally you should buy the entire range of buffers to test your carbine with, and any future carbines. That means a carbine, H, ST-T2, H2, and H3. Test them all, see what works best.

Now, just thinking what I believe to be logically, I would guess that the ST-T2 is a very reliable buffer for 14.5in middies. It's SLIGHTLY lighter than an H2, but heavier than a carbine. A carbine would probably be a little too light, an H2 MIGHT be a little too heavy (probably not, but every gun is different).

So, to conclude, an ST-T2 should work very well. An H2 MAY work better.

Iraqgunz

01-07-11, 00:27

Having been involved with some testing of the BCM 14.5" mid length along with markm I would go with an H2. We successfully used up to an H3 using a variety of 5.56 ammo. However, it did cycle very slowly.

I am not such a great fan of the Spike's buffer and I would simply use a quality H2 from BCM.

Non Attorney Disclosure- I don't get any kick backs or stock options from BCM. I simply like their stuff based upon the many successes I have had with their parts.

Col_Crocs

01-07-11, 01:45

If you havent built the lower already or dont mind taking it apart plus some additional costs, I recommend the Vltor A5 kit. IINM, theyre now avalailable separately as a buffer system alone.

vicious_cb

01-07-11, 11:22

If you watch any of 87GN vids you'll see that the spikes buffers work worse than regular buffers.

Watrdawg

01-07-11, 11:42

I'm using a H2 buffer with my BCM 14.5 Middy and have had no problems what so ever. So far I have only shot Fiocchi 55gr FMJ, and Fed 5.56 and .223 55gr FMJ. I haven't shot any Hornady Training or other low powered ammo yet. H2 is fine though. H3 may be a bit heavy with the lower powered ammo. Others have said thiers works fine with a H3 and others have had problems.

Brahmzy

01-07-11, 12:48

If you watch any of 87GN vids you'll see that the spikes buffers work worse than regular buffers.

That's a pretty broad blanket statement. From what I saw those tests were done with ONE rifle. Each and every single rifle will behave differently with the myiad of different parts combinations.
Carriers, bolts, gas length, buffer springs, receivers etc. all come into play. I consider those videos extremely helpful and insightful concerning bolt bounce in a ceratin rifle using certain buffer combos. By no means do I see that as a global gospel scientific rule for all AR15 platforms.

I've had great luck with the ST-T2's in some of my guns - others I've had better luck with H3's.

USNsheepdog

01-07-11, 16:20

Thanks for all the input. Idealy, trying ALL 4 buffers would be the best way to find out which one my rifle likes most. However, I'm not too comfortable throwing down a couple hundred bucks just to find out which works best. If I'm going to spend that kind of money, I'd just be better off getting the VLTOR A5 EMOD kit. Which is another option I've been considering.

Iraqgunz

01-07-11, 19:00

Don't take my word for it. Markm and I did quite a bit of testing with the BCM middy last summer (IIRC) and we tried all of the buffers from standard to H3.

There is very little doubt in my mind that if you get an H2 it will work with most ammo. We tried M855, Federal M193, Hornady TAP and a few others (you can search for that thread).

If it doesn't work then I'll buy the damn buffer back from you.

Thanks for all the input. Idealy, trying ALL 4 buffers would be the best way to find out which one my rifle likes most. However, I'm not too comfortable throwing down a couple hundred bucks just to find out which works best. If I'm going to spend that kind of money, I'd just be better off getting the VLTOR A5 EMOD kit. Which is another option I've been considering.

TehLlama

01-07-11, 21:42

I was excited about trying my ST-2. Went back to an H2 on that rifle, but ST2 is still quite happy on my SPR.

USNsheepdog

01-07-11, 23:57

Don't take my word for it. Markm and I did quite a bit of testing with the BCM middy last summer (IIRC) and we tried all of the buffers from standard to H3.

There is very little doubt in my mind that if you get an H2 it will work with most ammo. We tried M855, Federal M193, Hornady TAP and a few others (you can search for that thread).

If it doesn't work then I'll buy the damn buffer back from you.

Ok, well since you seem to know what you're talking about, I'll go ahead and get the H2 buffer and see how it works. Thanks for all the input!!!

Iraqgunz

01-08-11, 00:08

Read this.

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=56626

Ok, well since you seem to know what you're talking about, I'll go ahead and get the H2 buffer and see how it works. Thanks for all the input!!!

USNsheepdog

01-08-11, 00:27

Read this.

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=56626

That's a very informative thread. The upper he's got is the very same upper I'm ordering, only mine will have a pinned A2 flash hider.

Iraqgunz

01-08-11, 01:14

That's the one we tested. ;)

That's a very informative thread. The upper he's got is the very same upper I'm ordering, only mine will have a pinned A2 flash hider.

Outlander Systems

01-09-11, 11:44

Didn't Pat Rogers' "Filthy 14" use an H buffer?

uwe1

01-10-11, 22:04

I was excited about trying my ST-2. Went back to an H2 on that rifle, but ST2 is still quite happy on my SPR.

I thought that the DDM4s came with the unmarked ST-T2 buffers. I believe my black, but unmarked buffer has the sound of "powder" instead of weights in it. The recoil impulse of that gun w/ buffer is much sharper than the gun/H1 combo in another rifle. I'm going to order a H3 and make two H2s, one for each gun. Is there any reason to go with the ST-T2?

christcorp

01-24-11, 00:40

When I was checking out buffers and wanted to try different ones, I simply bought an H3. Between the H3 and the standard carbine buffer, you have every possibly combination of buffers available. Just mix and match until you find the one that works best with your rifle. I've done it this way on all 3 of my AR's.

1. Standard buffer has 3 steel weights in it.
2. H3 buffer has 3 tungsten weights in it.
3. H2 has 2 tungsten and 1 steel (Swap 1 tungsten with a steel from the original carbine buffer)
4. H (H1) has 1 tungsten and 2 steel. (Swap 2 tungsten with 2 steel from the original buffer).

I'm probably going to try out the ST-T2, only because it sounds intriguing. I've read a lot of positive posts on it. However; I've also heard some people say that an H2 is "Better". Not sure how they qualify "Better". Such a subjective word. I would think that a loose granular weight would shift more cleanly than 3 individual weights separated. Oh well. One of these days I'll buy one and try it. Currently; I like the H2. It's much better than the standard carbine buffer. But each person is different. Plus the ammo you shoot becomes a factor.

CQC.45

01-24-11, 09:38

Iraqgunz

01-24-11, 16:28

I am pretty sure that the 55gr. TAP ammo we used was .223 according to the box and product number. 9754EL.

Did you test any .223 pressure ammo or only 5.56? Did the H2 work for that as well? Thanks.

Hersh

01-24-11, 20:40

USNSheepdog,

I bought a Bravo H2 to experiment with and wound up going back to an H. It has a small nick on it where it went past the buffer retainer, otherwise it's pristine. If you're interested shoot me a PM and we can work something out.

Regards,

Alan

Magic_Salad0892

01-25-11, 02:53

I'd go with H2.

BTW: I seriously doubt that buffers make a difference in accuracy. (As you say in post #1.)

Brahmzy

01-25-11, 06:49

I'd go with H2.

BTW: I seriously doubt that buffers make a difference in accuracy. (As you say in post #1.)

Buffers can absolutely make a difference in how fast and *accurate* followup shots will be. If the rifle stays flatter/recoils smoother, you will be back on target faster.
Especially in FA.

01tundra

01-25-11, 16:01

I'm running an H buffer on my 16" BCM middy and it won't lock back every time with some of the .223 ammo I've tried. With the carbine buffer it locked back with any type of ammo I ran through it. I'm not really sure why it won't lock back with the ICC .223 ammo I've been using because it's actually pretty hot ammo when compared to Wolf. Not sure if maybe the BattleComp brake I have on it is having some effect on things, but I doubt it :confused:.

With 5.56 ammo it locks back every time. I definitely prefer the way it shoots with the H vs the carbine buffer.

eperk

11-13-12, 14:25

I run a S2T2 in my LMT carbine and haven't looked back. I WILL have one in my next build.

GaryXD

11-13-12, 15:11

I've used an H buffer on four different 14.5" middies. They all worked fine. I haven't experimented with any other buffers than the H though.

thisaway

11-14-12, 07:10

I have run a BCM H buffer and an ST-T2 with my BCM 14.5 midlength setup, and have experienced little difference using either. I have not used an H2 or H3 as most of my shooting has been with lower-powered steel-case .223 training fodder.

Best of luck and enjoy your BCM!

Gunzilla

11-14-12, 14:44

I'm using the ST-T2 buffer in both of my mid-length ARs, both have F/A BCG and both have run great on 'spec' 5.56 ammo.

On 1 the bolt would not lock back after the last round but I was shooting PMC .223 ammo and that AR had a Wolff extra power buffer spring....with 5.56 ammo it works fine.

What I like about that T2 buffer is the weight is not a clunky piece of steel, it's powdered steel...it makes no noise and softens the recoil.

polymorpheous

11-14-12, 15:14

Did I just read the OP state that a heavier buffer makes the rifle more accurate?
Where does this come from?

vicious_cb

11-14-12, 15:47

I wonder how many people who buy these things actually test them back to back against other buffers. It really does absolutely nothing over an H2 and actually does worse when it comes to reducing bolt bounce.

What I like about that T2 buffer is the weight is not a clunky piece of steel, it's powdered steel...it makes no noise and softens the recoil.

Does the sproing noise of the buffer spring also bother you? :rolleyes:

Gunzilla

11-14-12, 17:05

I wonder how many people who buy these things actually test them back to back against other buffers. It really does absolutely nothing over an H2 and actually does worse when it comes to reducing bolt bounce.

Does the sproing noise of the buffer spring also bother you? :rolleyes:

I did use an H2 (an H and a 9MM buffer) before buying the ST-T2 and I found it a comparable shooting experience without all the clunking......have you tried one yet, or are you one of the local echo chambers?? :blink:

As far as your 'bolt bounce' comment: I've had no issues from either rifle shooting as fast as my little finger can pull the trigger, and since I don't shoot full-auto that part of the equation doesn't really matter.

I wonder if you can post some video or some other factual data to prove your statement? Don't just post something as specific as that without having material to support your claim. If you really are here to help others (I'm guessing here) the least you could do is provide something concrete to back up your commentary, like a video showing the bolt bounce using the T2 buffer and the failures it caused.

Please educate us, don't just come here and talk down to us, that's not helping anything but your ego.

....and yes, that 'sproing' noise from the standard AR15 butt stock is rather annoying....when I'm required to shoot one, but it doesn't prevent me from hitting the target. ;)

420ollie

11-14-12, 18:09

I'm using the ST-T2 buffer in my 16" middy. It cycles with steel too. I was thinking of trying the lighter ST-T1. Don't know what the results would be.

Iraqgunz

11-14-12, 23:48

You can go to Youtube and see the testing that was done with various buffers using hi speed slow motion video and it clearly shows that the ST-2 doesn't work as well as the H2 or H3 buffers.

I did use an H2 (an H and a 9MM buffer) before buying the ST-T2 and I found it a comparable shooting experience without all the clunking......have you tried one yet, or are you one of the local echo chambers?? :blink:

As far as your 'bolt bounce' comment: I've had no issues from either rifle shooting as fast as my little finger can pull the trigger, and since I don't shoot full-auto that part of the equation doesn't really matter.

I wonder if you can post some video or some other factual data to prove your statement? Don't just post something as specific as that without having material to support your claim. If you really are here to help others (I'm guessing here) the least you could do is provide something concrete to back up your commentary, like a video showing the bolt bounce using the T2 buffer and the failures it caused.

Please educate us, don't just come here and talk down to us, that's not helping anything but your ego.

....and yes, that 'sproing' noise from the standard AR15 butt stock is rather annoying....when I'm required to shoot one, but it doesn't prevent me from hitting the target. ;)

vicious_cb

11-14-12, 23:50

I did use an H2 (an H and a 9MM buffer) before buying the ST-T2 and I found it a comparable shooting experience without all the clunking......have you tried one yet, or are you one of the local echo chambers?? :blink:

As far as your 'bolt bounce' comment: I've had no issues from either rifle shooting as fast as my little finger can pull the trigger, and since I don't shoot full-auto that part of the equation doesn't really matter.

I wonder if you can post some video or some other factual data to prove your statement? Don't just post something as specific as that without having material to support your claim. If you really are here to help others (I'm guessing here) the least you could do is provide something concrete to back up your commentary, like a video showing the bolt bounce using the T2 buffer and the failures it caused.

Please educate us, don't just come here and talk down to us, that's not helping anything but your ego.

....and yes, that 'sproing' noise from the standard AR15 butt stock is rather annoying....when I'm required to shoot one, but it doesn't prevent me from hitting the target. ;)

Yes, I used to own one. I bought a ST-T2 buffer when they first came out and tested it on a 16" and 14.5" carbine gas back to back with a H and H2 buffer. Recoil, ejection, muzzle flip was same between the H2 and spikes buffer. If you want to see the high speed videos look at Andrew's videos on Vuurwarpen Blog, even the lighter H buffer has less bolt bounce. If you want even more evidence look at all the magpul M3 test videos, HK also uses powder buffers and those things have crazy bolt bounce.

thisaway

11-15-12, 07:07

fdxpilot

11-15-12, 09:11

Could never see enough benefit beyond the normal H or H2 buffer to justify the bucks Spikes wants for their buffers.

Gunzilla

11-15-12, 20:32

Yes, I used to own one. I bought a ST-T2 buffer when they first came out and tested it on a 16" and 14.5" carbine gas back to back with a H and H2 buffer. Recoil, ejection, muzzle flip was same between the H2 and spikes buffer. If you want to see the high speed videos look at Andrew's videos on Vuurwarpen Blog, even the lighter H buffer has less bolt bounce. If you want even more evidence look at all the magpul M3 test videos, HK also uses powder buffers and those things have crazy bolt bounce.

Interesting. I guess my last 2 questions would be: If one is shooting a semi-auto AR does bolt bounce really make any difference?

Not trying to be a dick here but I can see that firing in full-auto mode that bolt bounce could be an issue you wouldn't want to experience..but what are the possible bad things that one might experience when shooting semi-auto?

You got my curiosity level way up now.

eperk

11-15-12, 22:08

Interesting. I guess my last 2 questions would be: If one is shooting a semi-auto AR does bolt bounce really make any difference?

Not trying to be a dick here but I can see that firing in full-auto mode that bolt bounce could be an issue you wouldn't want to experience..but what are the possible bad things that one might experience when shooting semi-auto?

You got my curiosity level way up now.

I wouldn't worry too much about it. I've been running the Spike's buffer and it's MUCH smoother than a carbine or even H buffer for me. I've seen these types of conversations in the Aimpoint vs Eotech threads. It never really gets settled. Different strokes for different folks.
Shoot what works for you.

jstone

11-16-12, 05:32

Buffers can absolutely make a difference in how fast and *accurate* followup shots will be. If the rifle stays flatter/recoils smoother, you will be back on target faster.
Especially in FA.

The buffer makes absolutely no difference in accuracy. It may get you back on target faster, but in no way increases accuracy. It may improve your time between shots, but there is no physical way the buffer can impart any accuracy to the bullet.

Even if the gun jumps 2 feet up, and you take your time to get back on target then fire. The shot will be slower, and just as accurate. Might actually be more accurate, because you took more time to take the shot.

Your argument lacks common sense, and knowledge of the system.

Iraqgunz

11-16-12, 06:14

Well aren't you a bundle of knowledge. Of course it will be better than a carbine buffer which only weighs 2.8 oz. It also weighs more than an H buffer. An H2 weighs around 4.6 oz and doesn't use powdered tungsten like the Spike's ST-2.

In any case regardless of what your opinion is, if you look at the video it is evident which one has less bounce.

I wouldn't worry too much about it. I've been running the Spike's buffer and it's MUCH smoother than a carbine or even H buffer for me. I've seen these types of conversations in the Aimpoint vs Eotech threads. It never really gets settled. Different strokes for different folks.
Shoot what works for you.

morbidbattlecry

11-17-12, 20:17

Iraqgunz - What would you recommend for a buffer if your shooting under powered ammo? I shoot alot of Wolf/Bear/Tula for range and practice ammo.

Delemus

11-17-12, 21:18

I had trouble out of a BCM middy 14.5" with a ST-2. it wouldn't cycle some older ammo I had. Changed to a H I had the with me and no more trouble. YMMV

morbidbattlecry

11-18-12, 01:05

I had trouble out of a BCM middy 14.5" with a ST-2. it wouldn't cycle some older ammo I had. Changed to a H I had the with me and no more trouble. YMMV

So a carbine buffer would most likely be way too light?

bigadaboom

11-21-12, 17:59

My spikes ST-2 smoothed the impulse i.e. the perceived recoil and changed my ejection pattern. It also allowed me to stay on target easier. thus allowing more controlled operation.
oh by the way 16.5 barrel

Gunzilla

11-21-12, 19:23

Let me see if I have all the variables involved with the cycling of the AR15.

1. bullet weight
2. type of load: mil-spec 5.56, M855, or M193 vs. civilian .223
3. buffer weight
4. buffer spring weight
5. bolt type: auto vs. semi auto
6. barrel length
7. barrel twist rate
8. muzzle device type
9. gas system length
10. gas port size

Did I miss anything, or did I list something that does not apply?

I watched the videos relating to the bolt bounce issues discussed here and I saw a slight amount with the Spikes ST-T2, H2 and 9mm buffers, some a little more than others, and little to none with the 'H' buffer.

Now, my question is: how much of a factor can the items listed above affect the amount of bolt bounce?.....and does bolt bounce make any difference whatsoever in a semi-auto 'only' fire mode AR15?

I ask because as much, and as fast, as I've shot my ARs I've not had a single malfunction with these ST-T2 buffers, and 1 is being used with a Wolff extra power buffer spring (at least it looks like one because of the heavier gauge wire used in this spring) on a 14.5" BCM 1/7 twist upper with a PWS FSC556 muzzle brake. The other is a 16" BCM 1/7 twist with the FSC556 muzzle brake and a standard carbine buffer spring, both shooting mil-spec M855 ammo...both mid-length uppers.

It would be nice to get some clarification on this issue from those that have tested various buffers and spring combos with mil-spec ammo.....thank you, in advance.

akioty10

11-22-12, 07:19

I run the spikes h2 in every AR I own without a problem. I recently built a 20 and all I had for a buffer was a spikes h2. This is not a good combo at all, gun would not cycle another round into the chamber after the trigger was pulled. I was fairly certain that it would not work but I had to try . We were using tula ammo.
I have all 16' rifles one is carbine GS the others are middies.

Scorpion

11-22-12, 08:06

Iraqgunz - What would you recommend for a buffer if your shooting under powered ammo? I shoot alot of Wolf/Bear/Tula for range and practice ammo.

Not Iraqgunz, but use the heaviest buffer you can get away with that will still provide reliable function.

Using that ammo, most likely it will be a carbine buffer; you might be able to get away with an H buffer, but steel-cased ammo is weak. If your bolt fails to lock back on the last round, your buffer is too heavy.