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Larry Vickers
08-22-07, 22:12
As many of you know I like to try new concepts in my training classes - so please provide feedback on this idea;

A carbine class (2 day) in 2008 at South Hill, Va with any intermediate caliber weapon that is NOT an AR style long gun; this would be your chance to drag out and use your Galil, FNC, FS2000, AUG, etc.

I for one would look forward to it and feel there would be alot of lessons learned on how to properly run some of these guns - just like when we did the AK classes this year; everyone learned ALOT about running an AK - myself included

Please provide feedback and if it looks like a go we will of course announce it here

Be safe

Larry Vickers

www.vickerstactical.com

Steve
08-22-07, 22:27
Lever gun.......:D

Jay Cunningham
08-22-07, 23:12
Larry,

I applaud and encourage you in your desire to try new concepts for classes.

In this particular instance I'm not sure how practical this class would be. You have your AR-centric classes which cover that platform. You have your AK Course which includes Valmet, Galil, etc. Then you have your Battle Rifle which covers FAL, M1A, G3 etc.

There are so many different variations on intermediate caliber "assault" rifles that I think a two-day course to cover them would really wind up more as an exhibition than a shooting class.

My opinion, with the imminent release of 2 different AUG clones (and the subsequent price of actual Steyr guns dropping as a result) is to offer a 2 day AUG Operator's Class.


My $.02 for what it's worth, Larry.

:cool:

Robb Jensen
08-23-07, 05:41
Great idea. Although I don't own anything that would be suitable for the class, I guess I could use my 7.62x39mm Chinese (PolyTech) or Romanian (SAR1) AK.

John_Wayne777
08-23-07, 07:01
Sounds like a good idea to me.

I know a lot of guys own things like Augs and FS2000s but have never really run them in training. I imagine a 2 day course would expose them to the particular issues whatever platform they are using has in a way nothing else would.

My only concern would be how large a base there is for such a class. Personally the only intermediate cartridge weapon I own is an AR. I don't know how many guys out there have something like an AUG collecting dust in the gunsafe who could make up the class.

VA_Dinger
08-23-07, 11:28
Great idea, it would make for a very fun & educational class.

I don’t know anybody who wouldn’t want to be on the firing line with a group of Galil, FNC, FS2000, AUG, Sig, XCR, ETC shooters.

It sounds like a blast.

Mike729
08-23-07, 19:21
I have a SIG 556 just sitting in the safe (low prio project). I think it'd be interesting to see how it performs in a class, though.

bigbore
08-23-07, 21:09
What about a sub- intermediate or chief-transitional cartridge?

I think the M1 carbine is the most underrated, readily available defensive weapon available to the general public.

They are relatively inexpensive - $5-600 at fun shows.
Reliable GI mags are cheap and available.
The ammo run$ about the same price as .223 any more.
Very easy to shoot
Accurate enough/Good Iron sights – I’m minute of clay pigeon at 50yds all day long
With slight pocket knife work to the stock, a sling offered by Blueforce Gear, pulls right through and attaches to the included front side sling swivel.
As an added bonus, it is not a threatening looking weapon. If you have a travel weapon, you may be breaking city/state laws with an AR, while the little wooden gun lacking an evil pistol grip is not an issue.

http://www.adcofirearms.com/junkpics/cheif_carbine.jpg

(I’m not advocating anything against the law – but for those worried about TEOTWAWKI – select fire conversion is a simple drop in with un restricted parts bought at most fun shows)

taliv
08-23-07, 21:56
oh it just figures

no sooner than i decide to get rid of the toy guns (HK SL8-1, FN PS90) in order to standardize on ar15s, somebody comes up with something fun to do with them

this is the sort of class i'd like to be a spectator at though. seriously, would love to watch it

Alpha Sierra
08-25-07, 08:46
Why would those with other 5.56 rifles/carbines not just simply use them during the standard tactical class?

I just wonder if there is enough critical mass to make a class aimed specifically at non-AR rifles to be viable.

BB, good idea on the M1 carbine. The original US assault rifle.

subzero
08-25-07, 09:53
Why would those with other 5.56 rifles/carbines not just simply use them during the standard tactical class?

You may have noticed that some folks actually think about what "other people" will think. Those types, regardless of what rifle they're good with and they like, will take an AR to a class because "it's what everyone else will be using." Some may even use not liking or having an AR as a reason to blow off going to a class.

Not me. But some.

bigbore
08-25-07, 10:04
You may have noticed that some folks actually think about what "other people" will think. Those types, regardless of what rifle they're good with and they like, will take an AR to a class because "it's what everyone else will be using." Some may even use not liking or having an AR as a reason to blow off going to a class.

Not me. But some.


Exactly, and exactly why a class of this sort will fill up. Those same people will take any opportunity to dress up in their latest multicammed, plate carrying tactical costumes, to get new pics for their myspace pages.

"Tactical" is a business, and the majority of the people you mention have money to spend.

John_Wayne777
08-25-07, 10:27
Why would those with other 5.56 rifles/carbines not just simply use them during the standard tactical class?


Several of the carbine operator classes I've taken mandate an AR of some sort as the weapon to use mainly because you are trying to cover material relevant to that platform....it's kind of difficult to have a class session about lubrication and care of the weapon be useful when half the class is carrying something different.

Paulinski
08-25-07, 10:48
What about an M14 specific class?

Larry Vickers
08-25-07, 11:30
I agree with what is being said here in that many people feel like they 'have' to use and AR when in fact I teach carbine classes; not just AR classes - but in this day and age many people, and some other instructors, really mean AR when they say carbine

In addition it keeps it interesting for me becasue I believe in using what the majority of the students are using so that means I teach with AR's, Glocks, M9's and 1911's ALOT - with very little chance to use anything else

Absolutely the M1 Carbine would be welcome - I am a huge WW II buff and would not be able to live with myself not allowing the original semi auto carbine into the class

I would be open to any specific weapon type class (M14/M1A for example) if the demand was there - my recommendation would be the get in the battle rifle class as that will answer the mail on that weapon

Thanx as always - M4C has always been very supportive of me and my classes and I really appriciate it

Cheers

Larry Vickers

www.vickerstactical.com

Alpha Sierra
08-25-07, 12:56
Several of the carbine operator classes I've taken mandate an AR of some sort as the weapon to use mainly because you are trying to cover material relevant to that platform....

I understand that. I guess I was just referring to those classes where the requirement is to bring a rifle that works, regardless of design.

Alpha Sierra
08-25-07, 12:58
You may have noticed that some folks actually think about what "other people" will think. Those types, regardless of what rifle they're good with and they like, will take an AR to a class because "it's what everyone else will be using." Some may even use not liking or having an AR as a reason to blow off going to a class.

Not me. But some.
I'm not much for the herd mentality, either.

This thread has me now thinking about an M1 carbine.........

John_Wayne777
08-25-07, 14:58
I'm not much for the herd mentality, either.

This thread has me now thinking about an M1 carbine.........

Don't think....BUY!!!

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=6568

The CMP is going to start taking orders for Underwood carbines on 9/4/07 for 565. Given the condition the CMP carbines are coming in I would encourage you to go that route if you want one. I have yet to see anyone truly disappointed with a CMP purchase.

Jay Cunningham
08-25-07, 15:07
I will most likely be using an AK variant in the Night/LowLight Class in November - should be interesting!

rhino
08-25-07, 20:13
I'm not sure I'd be interested in a class with the sole difference that it's non-ARs. If I owned a non-AR (and was interested in learning to use it better), I'd probably go ahead and participate in a "regular" carbine class with it. The instructors I'm willing to patronize 1) would not mind, and 2) would be able to coach me through the specifics of operating the unfamiliar system.

On the other hand . . . what would be really cool is a class or series of seminars where different weapons are provided (including ammo) and everyone learns how to operate and fire them.

scottandt
08-25-07, 22:07
I would be interested, I think the only issue would be finding enough people with the type of weapons you are looking for but I imagine that you could probably round up 10 or 12 individuals who would be interested, count me in if you run the class.

Thanks





As many of you know I like to try new concepts in my training classes - so please provide feedback on this idea;

A carbine class (2 day) in 2008 at South Hill, Va with any intermediate caliber weapon that is NOT an AR style long gun; this would be your chance to drag out and use your Galil, FNC, FS2000, AUG, etc.

I for one would look forward to it and feel there would be alot of lessons learned on how to properly run some of these guns - just like when we did the AK classes this year; everyone learned ALOT about running an AK - myself included

Please provide feedback and if it looks like a go we will of course announce it here

Be safe

Larry Vickers

www.vickerstactical.com

Heavy Metal
08-25-07, 22:35
I am a huge WW II buff

AND ABSOLUTELY NOT A NAZI!!!!!!:D

Larry Vickers
08-26-07, 10:52
Rhino you make a good point about the seminar but in this day and age that is not likely - for instance If I brought say a Steyr AUG, FN FNC, SIG SG550, IMI Galil , and a Beretta AR 70 to the class for students to disassemble, assemble, and shoot the value of these pre ban guns never to be imported again (most likely) would be in the neighborhood of $18,000 and up

Good concept but in this day and age not workable

be safe

Larry Vickers

www.vickerstactical.com

abnartyguy
08-26-07, 12:33
Gent's,
After Larry's AK class it opened my eyes to other platforms, but what about all these sub-cal guns like the UMP/USC, 9mm AR, and MP5 clones? I love my AR's, enough i picked up a 9mm version to shoot on the cheap but most folks blow it off as a toy gun, but its fun to shoot(and i can shoot steel targets that would scare me with 556). And i have to say I've been looking at some of the other 9mm/.45 carbines for more fun. I know most folks think a sub cal round is more for "submachine" guns but with prices rising on ammo 9mm might be more popular as time goes on. More later!
-Zef M.:cool:

rhino
08-26-07, 20:00
Rhino you make a good point about the seminar but in this day and age that is not likely - for instance If I brought say a Steyr AUG, FN FNC, SIG SG550, IMI Galil , and a Beretta AR 70 to the class for students to disassemble, assemble, and shoot the value of these pre ban guns never to be imported again (most likely) would be in the neighborhood of $18,000 and up

Yeah, you're definitely right about that.

The only way I could see it working is with a small group effort of people. Guys who own something exotic who are willing to bring it to a central location for some "show and tell" is what I'm thinking, but the logistics would require someone who is really dedicated to making it happen.

Oh, well . . . maybe some day our laws will return to a more American version (i.e. minimal and non-intrusive). Wait! I'm dreaming! :D

Bonk2029
08-26-07, 20:15
I'd be up for a pistol-caliber class, particularly if I can ever finish the 9mm AR I started two years ago. Open it up to everything non-rifle caliber, from full-auto SMG's to Marline Camp Carbines and everything in the middle. Ranges less than 100 yards, add some pistol transitions, the possibilities are there.

NCPatrolAR
08-26-07, 21:32
I wouldnt mind doing a pistol caliber class. Of course, something I'd realy like to do is a type of room combat/clearing class. I'm sure a course like that would be more of an intermediate/advanced course, but it would make the Milfmasta happy.

Heavy Metal
08-26-07, 21:42
In light of ammo costs, a class on how to conduct effective training with sub-caliber .22 conversions might not be a bad thing.

Ed L.
08-27-07, 00:56
Rhino you make a good point about the seminar but in this day and age that is not likely - for instance If I brought say a Steyr AUG, FN FNC, SIG SG550, IMI Galil , and a Beretta AR 70 to the class for students to disassemble, assemble, and shoot the value of these pre ban guns never to be imported again (most likely) would be in the neighborhood of $18,000 and up.

I agree. I was thinking this would be a good class to bring my AUG and FS2000 to, then I had to consider how secure they would be when I wasn't using them (like where to safely leave them when I went to eat at night, etc). Unlike handguns, you can't really bring concealled longarms into restaurants with you. Just risking two expensive guns has me nervous, I can't imagine what it would be like for a person priving a lineup of them.

the1911fan
08-27-07, 01:58
Of course, something I'd really like to do is a type of room combat/clearing class. I'm sure a course like that would be more of an intermediate/advanced course.

The Marietta, Ohio VT low light/no light carbine/pistol class had an excellent room combat/clearing section it was a highlight of the class and the shoot house was top notch. It was one of the few times at a training class that when it was over you were bumming cause you wanted to keep on going past 3 a.m.:D

Larry Vickers
08-27-07, 06:35
So what I am hearing is a pistol caliber carbine/SMG class - well since I now have my FFL 07/SOT I will have some SMG's to enjoy soon - in addition to my S&H conversion MP5 I already have

I will get with Paul so we can schedule that one for next year for South Hill -done deal

MilfMaster - If that is what you seek you really should try and make the journey to Ohio for the fall Low Light class with me and Ken - you will definately enjoy it

Cheers

Larry Vickers

www.vickerstactical.com

NCPatrolAR
08-27-07, 07:12
Larry

My check for the remainder of the tuition on the Low Light class is on its way already. The block on room clearing makes the class even more desirable, and applicable, for me and what I do.

TOrrock
08-27-07, 07:17
Did I hear subgun? :D


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Sterling%20Mk4/Mk.jpg

taliv
08-27-07, 08:47
sorry I'm not following you... what state/city is that pistol caliber carbine class likely to be near?

i think i could swing that next year.

Colt6920
08-27-07, 08:55
Subgun class... I have two MP5 clones SBR'd, a BW5 and a PDW. Laugh if you like but they run pretty damn good, not perfect but I consider them "fun guns".

I would be interested in taking them to a class, I just need to brush up on the legality issues with transporting them.

Robb Jensen
08-27-07, 08:56
sorry I'm not following you... what state/city is that pistol caliber carbine class likely to be near?

i think i could swing that next year.

Larry is talking about South Hill, VA.

Nick S
08-29-07, 18:59
Larry

Another suggestion. How about an intermediate-range/SPR/DM class class that focuses primarily on 50-300m ranges. Nothing out of the realm that a good, service grade rifle w/ 4x glass could not handle if the rifleman can do his part. It seems that most classes get wrapped up w/ short-range stuff and the intermediate range stuff gets alot less focus and training time.

Hope all is well.

Take care.

Nick - CPT America

Gunfixr
08-29-07, 23:54
I'd do a pistol cal carbine class next year. Bring my .45 cal Storm.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k31/Gunfixr/CX4Beretta008.jpg

CarlosDJackal
08-30-07, 14:35
Another vote for an M1 Carbine class. I'd love to attend such a class (as long as my schedule and funds allow me to)!!

I also like the idea of a sub-gun class. There are a lot of individuals who own pistol-caliber carbines who would probably sign up for such a class.

CarlosDJackal
08-30-07, 14:38
The Marietta, Ohio VT low light/no light carbine/pistol class had an excellent room combat/clearing section it was a highlight of the class and the shoot house was top notch. It was one of the few times at a training class that when it was over you were bumming cause you wanted to keep on going past 3 a.m.:D

Ditto on this. Plus, I got to do it with a Colt 9mm carbine on full-auto!! :D

ron556
09-09-07, 09:54
larry,

+1 on a pistol caliber/subgun class. got the subgun, but have been wanting a pistol-caliber AR for some time. you know, any excuse… :D

i'd also be into an "non-AR" carbine class. i've got an AUG from tpd usa coming very soon + would like to see how that thing performs.

Army Chief
09-09-07, 13:39
This thread almost has me wishing that I could figure out some way to get BATF compliance approval on one of the new-production semi-automatic (only) StG-44 rifles that are now being manufactured over here (http://www.ssd-weapon.com/produkte/produkte.htm) in Germany.

Not that it would be at all practical to attend a course with such a weapon, given the cost and rarity of decent 7.92 x 33mm fodder, but ahhh -- that's hardly the point.

Chief

EDIT: Here is an English-language URL for the new-build StG 44 for those who maintain an interest in that particular weapon: http://www.ssd-weapon.com/engl_web/produkte_en/bd44_en/bd44_en.htm

Stretz Tactical Inc
09-10-07, 17:43
Larry,
What about a "limited" foreign weapons course - you could focus on current enemy weapons. Maybe pick up were your AK class left off. You could leave out the AK, maybe even make that course a prereq. for this course - it might keep the cost down and make it workable?
Also wondering when your 2008 classes will be posted?

ErnieB
09-11-07, 23:07
Larry,

Whatever type of rifle class you decide upon it would be nice to have a drill or two dedicated to extended distance engagement. Say 200-300 yards (and beyond if relevent). Most of the guys I know who have had some carbine training rarely have had the opportunity outside of the military to shoot their goodies beyond 100 yards. I understand that most ranges don't offer that type of range but if interested I can put you in touch with a range here in the Vegas area where you can shoot out to 550 meters.

Just a thought.

Ernie

VA_Dinger
09-22-07, 08:50
Since this subgun / pistol caliber carbine is such a specialty class I'm going to be starting a separate thread to take down names of the guys interested. I hope you guys remember how eager you were in this thread.

:D

Please post in this thread;
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=79153#post79153

MX5
09-25-07, 10:08
Good ideas Larry and lots of good feedback from others. Keep-up the good work!

Stretz Tactical Inc
09-28-07, 12:36
Larry,
What about a vehicle tactics course? I recently took a one day course where we shot through auto glass from inside the car, shot engine blocks and linear surfaces of vehicles. While it was very informative, it missed a few spots and the instructor, while decently trained seemed to lack the real world experience. I would love too see a more in depth class and from someone with your type of background. Just a thought.