View Full Version : FA Trigger Group
I know this may be a stupid question, but I searched and did not see it clearly asked already. If you have a non-NFA Semi-Auto lower with a semi-auto trigger and you buy an FA trigger group and install it in the semi lower, is it illegal? I am thinking it is but I am not sure.
I am questioning this since having an M16 (FA) bolt carrier is not illegal in a non registered lower, then why is having a FA trigger group. The firearm will still be semi-auto.
Just trying to get some clarification to better understand the laws. I don't want to do this, I am just curious as I personally do not see a point in FA anyway for a civilian.
militarymoron
01-10-11, 14:53
I am questioning this since having an M16 (FA) bolt carrier is not illegal in a non registered lower, then why is having a FA trigger group. The firearm will still be semi-auto.
not necessarily - there's still a chance that you could get a slam fire from the hammer following if the selector lever is set to 'auto', even without a sear. a similar thing happens with bad trigger jobs and you get doubling or bursts.
someone can correct me if that's wrong.
I get that it may not be mechanically smart, but would it be illegal under NFA laws?
Evil Bert,
Do you understand how the AR system works? Specifically the lower parts kit and BCG, etc..? If you understand that then I highly recommend that you not do it.
If you read that one letter from the BATFE it talks specifically about the parts you are talking about.
In addition you may want to read about that idiot in Wisconsin who did exactly what you are talking about. Guess what happened to him?
Robb Jensen
01-10-11, 15:10
I know this may be a stupid question, but I searched and did not see it clearly asked already. If you have a non-NFA Semi-Auto lower with a semi-auto trigger and you buy an FA trigger group and install it in the semi lower, is it illegal? I am thinking it is but I am not sure.
I am questioning this since having an M16 (FA) bolt carrier is not illegal in a non registered lower, then why is having a FA trigger group. The firearm will still be semi-auto.
Just trying to get some clarification to better understand the laws. I don't want to do this, I am just curious as I personally do not see a point in FA anyway for a civilian.
I'd suggest reading this a few times....http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/nfa-handbook/
If I am correct, a full auto trigger group won't fit in a semi-auto lower, because the lower doesn't have the pin hole above the selector, right?
It would seem then that modifying the lower to accept it would put you in prison for a long time.
militarymoron
01-10-11, 15:31
all FA parts (trigger, hammer, selector, disconnect) except the auto sear will fit in a semi lower. that's what the OP is referring to.
Most currently manufactured AR lowers will accept .155 diameter pins and parts, i.e. select fire components.
The sear does not make the gun go full auto- it regulates full auto fire.
If I am correct, a full auto trigger group won't fit in a semi-auto lower, because the lower doesn't have the pin hole above the selector, right?
It would seem then that modifying the lower to accept it would put you in prison for a long time.
I forsee a knock and annouce, followed by a dynamic entry and a very exciting morning in someone's not to distant future.
Why don't you write the ATF with this question? That way, if someone ever comes knocking on your door, you can show them a letter from a government agency and not a post from someone on a forum on the Internet.
The question he asked has already been addressed in the same letter that was sent out about AR15 full auto BCG's.
Why don't you write the ATF with this question? That way, if someone ever comes knocking on your door, you can show them a letter from a government agency and not a post from someone on a forum on the Internet.
You know I hate asking these questions because people always start assuming that the OP has some intention of doing something. I have no intention of buying any FA triggers as I have no intent on using FA for any reason at all.
So based on your earlier comment you don't think that civilians should be allowed to own FA weapons? Or did I misunderstand?
The reason that installing a full auto BCG isn't an issue is because it cannot do anything to make the weapon shoot full auto. Installing the complete LPK minus the sear can. Does that make sense?
You know I hate asking these questions because people always start assuming that the OP has some intention of doing something. I have no intention of buying any FA triggers as I have no intent on using FA for any reason at all.
So based on your earlier comment you don't think that civilians should be allowed to own FA weapons? Or did I misunderstand?
The reason that installing a full auto BCG isn't an issue is because it cannot do anything to make the weapon shoot full auto. Installing the complete LPK minus the sear can. Does that make sense?
On the first question - I think I may not have been clear. As for my opinion on firearms rights, I believe the U.S. Constitution is clear and that there should be no restrictions on what type of firearms civilians have the right to own. So I feel the whole NFA and GCA is unconstitutional. The right to keep and bear... shall not be infringed. pretty clear IMO.
With that said, I see no real benefit to FA for civilians, other than suppressive fire or spray and pray. I personally cannot imagine a situation in which civilian would NEED full auto capability. Except for complete anarchy, in which case this whole discussion is a moot point.
On the second question - Yes that makes sense and it is what I was thinking the whole time. I just wanted clarification
The question he asked has already been addressed in the same letter that was sent out about AR15 full auto BCG's.
Do you mean this letter? If so, unless I can't comprehend what I read, it clearly states that M16 BCGs are not to be used in the manufacturing of AR15's
Colt ATF Letter posted by Grant (https://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=134799&postcount=10)
No, that is not what it says. It states that you should not use M16 parts. The reason is because the weapon MAY fire full auto which means that you are then in possession of an unregistered machine gun. If you read closely it says- that the FTB cannot specifically authorize you to use a full auto BCG, nor can they say that using one will make the weapon full auto.
As I stated above. If you understand how the weapon functions, you will know what parts when installed will make the weapon go full auto. That is why I said I recommend NOT using those parts.
SOMETHING IS ALSO MISSING FROM THAT LETTER. LOOK AT THE LAST PART.
.S. Department of Justice
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco
Firearms and Explosives
[stamp] FEB 10 2005
903050:RV
3311/2005-167
www.atf.gov
[stamp] Received FEB 14 2005
Legal Department
Mr. Carlton S. Chen
Colt Defense LLC
547 New Park Avenue
West Hartford, CT 06110
Dear Mr. Chen:
This is in reference to your most recent facsimile transmitted to the Firearms Technology Branch (FTB), Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), on January 13, 2005. In your faxed letter, you seek clarification regarding the use of M16 machinegun bolt carriers in AR-15 type weapons.
As you are aware, since your provision of copies of relevant material in your previous faxes, ATF has previously addressed the use of M16 machinegun fire-control components in AR-15 type rifles in the General Information section of the Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide (ATF P 5300.4). (Please refer to page 115, item #3, “Important Information Concerning AR-15 Type Rifles.”)
However, we would like to direct your attention to a particular paragraph of item #3, which states the following:
In order to avoid violations of the NFA, M16 hammers, triggers, disconnectors, selectors and bolt carriers must not be used in assembly of AR-15 type semiautomatic rifles, unless the M16 parts have been modified to AR-15 Model SP1 configuration. Any AR-15 type rifles which have been assembled with M16 internal components should have those parts removed and replaced with AR-15 Model SP1 type parts which are available commercially. The M16 components also may be modified to AR-15 Model SP1 configuration.
Accordingly, based on previous FTB recommendations not to install this bolt carrier and the conclusions presented in the passage cited above, our Branch cannot specifically authorize you to install an M16 bolt carrier into an AR15 rifle. Also, we cannot definitively tell you that installing an M16 bolt carrier in an AR 15 will make that firearm fire automatically.
-2-
Mr. Carlton S. Chen
We can only inform you that if this installation were to create a firearm that fires automatically, it would be a machinegun as defined; conversely, if it did not result in the production of a weapon that shoots automatically, it would be lawful to posses and make.
We thank you for your inquiry and trust the foregoing has been responsive.
Sincerely yours,
[signed]
Sterling Nixon
Chief, Firearms Technology Branch
Do you mean this letter? If so, unless I can't comprehend what I read, it clearly states that M16 BCGs are not to be used in the manufacturing of AR15's
Colt ATF Letter posted by Grant (https://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=134799&postcount=10)
A simple Google search also yielded this result which is more current.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/ATF%20M16%20Letter.pdf
Thanks. Funny how 3 years prior they said it was a no no. Now it is okay. Which is what I already understood. Just never saw the letter till now.
Once again. They never said that. YOU NEED TO READ IT CAREFULLY. It was nothing more than CTA.
Now that this has been resolved we can put it to sleep.
Thanks. Funny how 3 years prior they said it was a no no. Now it is okay. Which is what I already understood. Just never saw the letter till now.
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