View Full Version : Leupold's last great hope....(Tactical market)???
I think out of the sake of competition and the related benefits for the consumer it has I would love to see Leupy's new tactical offerings turn out to be great successes and overall revamp a very tired and far surpassed optic company imho.
Over the last cpl. years Nightforce has all but stole the $1k-1.5k scope market w. SB, USO, Premier, as well as NF claiming the $2k plus market so it really is a make or break time for Leupold again imho.
I just found a good read going over the new tactical releases from Leupold and they appear to have some heavy homework and R&D into them. If you are interested in this topic and wish to learn more pick up the Feb. issue of Guns and Ammo...most walmarts should have it.
http://i52.tinypic.com/5yc1as.jpg
I agree that the initial offering (1.1-8X) is a step up in quality. However, I do not see the line resuscitating their sales if they continue to price themselves out of the market.
Lucky Strike
01-12-11, 08:23
I sure hope it pans out....I'd like to see them do well as I'm an oregonian and i like to support in state companies.
One of the reasons i went with the Deltapoint over the RMR for my milled M&P. David Bowie's and RobS's comments helped too.
Leupold seems stuck on dated 1" tube deer rifle scopes, plus a couple of quirky tactical products that just never caught on. The Prismatic succeeds in being the fastest battery-drainer known to man, while also being one of the few true 1x optics with limited eye relief. The CQ/T at least goes from 1x to 3x magnification, but maintains the ridiculously small eyebox and manages to weigh over a pound.
...maybe when the Leupold Custom Shop lets you engrave pictures of terrorists and burglars, in addition to the usual bighorn sheep and deer.
Just some ideas, 'cause I really do like my old Leupy deer rifle scope:
- Differentiate your made-in-USA and foreign-made products. Differentiate them A LOT. Even if that means completely different brand names.
- 30mm tubes are the standard. 34mm tubes are also nice. Anyone with a budget for a new optic can certainly afford new rings. Stop. Making. One. Inch. Tubes.
- Before trying to compete with Trijicon, Aimpoint, S&B, NF, et. al., send your engineers to some training courses and have them use your competitors equipment... hard.
I share your basic view Kartoffel....1" tubes on $1k + optics is truly archaic and is one of the most telling examples of why I started this thread. I wanted to start a thread about this many months ago just because I always say to myself how much of a fall Leupy has taken, YET they still have heavy hitters in the R&D dept. and have top flight machines and facility's and overall really clean, crisp actual glass.
So sharing your thoughts on Leupy's current standing in the market and where you think they will be in 1yr. or 5yr. along w. a few reasons to support your side is meat for this thread in my book.
I cannot stat how firmly I believe Leupy's fate was forever sealed in at least the Tactical market when they pulled the MK 4 3-9x36...last great leupy imho:)
Lucky Strike
01-12-11, 20:02
I wonder what the split of the overall scope market share is between the hunting scopes and tactical scopes. Maybe they just decided to stick with what makes them money which kinda stinks for people wanting more options in the $1-1.5k tactical market
They are not going anywhere on the hunting market. Way to many people willing to drop the cash on their deer rifles, for the top names.
I cannot stat how firmly I believe Leupy's fate was forever sealed in at least the Tactical market when they pulled the MK 4 3-9x36...last great leupy imho:)
Doesn't the Mk 4 3-9x36 still exist in the form of the Mk 4 2.5-8x36? I always thought it was the same scope with the name changed. Granted though I don't think Leup offers it with M3 turrets like the military TS-30.
We'll see, for the price point of their premium optics (with the exception of the 1.1-8x) you can get something better from trijicon or any other manufacturer.
Why would you buy Leupy if you were buying only hunting glass...That is when I would be buying a Zeiss or a Swaro who owns the hunting glass market b/t $1-2k imho.
One would think that leupy lost a ton of potential Business growth and by extension the leupy civilian tactical or whatever segment when they lost favor in the Military use category.
ICANHITHIMMAN
01-13-11, 16:16
I must say I was overjoyed when my fav optics company released details on the CQBSS. But joy soon turned to anger when I saw the price tag. I'm a man of humble means and this will never happen for me.
Who do you think the intended market for this optic was? I hope they sell them as I love my other Leupold products.
Sadly they have gone off the deep end with their pricing... I cant imagine someone spending as much for a Leupold as either a S&B or Premier or even Night Force for that matter... I think Vortex will have greater success than Leupold but I could be wrong...
IMHO NF is one of the better values out there unless you want to play with the big boys Premier, S&B USO etc, etc...
I may sound negative about Leupy, but at one time I considered them easily one of the best. They obviously still have the potential and that is what is so frustrating. I would not give a hoot about Leupy's disappearing presence in the tactical market if they never had such a wonderful position in it at one time.
As far as the ball busting CQBSS goes, It's my understanding that all the actual features and overall specs were driven solely by SF Operators downrange who were doing what we all do and that is chase puff the magic dragon or the "End all, do all" optic.
The price point is two fold....one, as mentioned their is a very respectable amt. of R&D and new optic technology combined with at least initially very small production runs, and secondly you have the Military pricing aspect although I have not heard of any actual contract.
The CQBSS is the real deal holyfield from all I can tell and learn, and as time goes on I bet we see the price come down to the $2.5k mark.
While the "tactical" market may be taking over the internet, there are probably still 200 million hunters and sportsmen who consider Leupold as one of the best, especially those guys who can't ever consider buying a $2000++++ Swarovski or Schmidt & Bender.
Their VX-3 3.5x-10x is a kickass hunting scope. So were their older VariX line that preceded them.
I would venture there are more of them, than there are of the people who really require an optic on par with S&B...
I predict you will see the CQBSS paired with a certain rifle and sold to Uncle Sam... I find that most of the chatter about this optic is coming from the same place...
All of the above is simply speculation of course. ;)
Their VX-3 3.5x-10x is a kickass hunting scope. So were their older VariX line that preceded them.
Quite true. Got a 22LR bolt gun that's nearly perfect with a Leupold 3-9x33 EFR. Nice and light, clear glass, and adjustable parallax from 10 yards out to infinity. I think the same scope is maybe $350 brand new nowadays, and if they're still made like they were when I got mine, it's way better than a Meuller, Weaver, or similar such rimfire scope.
Right now, Leupold is able to charge a premium for the 1.1-8x because it is the only model to be actually produced (albeit in limited numbers). The Premier offering has been pushed back to Summer 2011, and there is no definite word when SB will release their model. So, the lack of immediate competition allows Leupold to recover some R&D costs.
Basic economics says that prices will come down if the competition can produce a comparable product for less money. I'm betting there will be at least 3 choices in the 1-8x market priced at around $2.5K within two years.
While the "tactical" market may be taking over the internet, there are probably still 200 million hunters and sportsmen who consider Leupold as one of the best, especially those guys who can't ever consider buying a $2000++++ Swarovski or Schmidt & Bender.
Their VX-3 3.5x-10x is a kickass hunting scope. So were their older VariX line that preceded them.
I would venture there are more of them, than there are of the people who really require an optic on par with S&B...
Great points.
I had nothing to go on really, except using the MR/T on a friends rifle and really liking it. I tried a 1-4 on the low end of the spectrum, (Millet) with not the best results. The Leupold MR/T was in my price range and immediately available, so I bought it. Having it on my rifle for months now, I wouldn't be without it. Is there better out there? I'm sure, but for me, the MR/T fits the bill. It's held up well to some very hard use and while I would love a better lighted reticle, I seem to do pretty well with it. Perhaps down the road I can dance in the $1k+ realm, but for the time-being, I'm pretty happy with my Leupy...
While the "tactical" market may be taking over the internet, there are probably still 200 million hunters and sportsmen who consider Leupold as one of the best, especially those guys who can't ever consider buying a $2000++++ Swarovski or Schmidt & Bender.
Their VX-3 3.5x-10x is a kickass hunting scope. So were their older VariX line that preceded them.
I would venture there are more of them, than there are of the people who really require an optic on par with S&B...
Firstly, It's Leupold who refers to the market segment in which they make optics fit for Military or Police applications as the "Tactical" segment. Leupold referred to this market as the "Tactical" market way before the silly internet and these silly forums were as big as they are today.
Secondly, I do not shoot any animals for fun and I am not a member on any online hunter forums so I have no interest in their scopes made for the hunting market, however I am well aware of their current position in that market as well.
So regardless of their position in the "Hunting" market...where the non-internet people obviously are, this thread and topic is the discussion surrounding Leupold's diminishing position in their self named "Tactical" segment, and then whether or not Leupold's new...wait, here it comes again..."Tactical" lineup of optics can reinvent Leupold's overall presence in this particular market, hints the inclusion of the Magazine article and picture:)
...and overall revamp a very tired and far surpassed optic company imho.
You may know all the things you claim to know, after I illustrated them,and that's fine, but the qoute above led me, as a casual reader, to believe that you thought somehow that 1/4 of their total line of optics, maybe less, was somehow going to "bring back" an optic company that isn't really failing or lacking in any way.
Fact is, I am fairly certain that their bread and butter hunting and target line is pretty strong, for all the reasons I mentioned, and for which you seemingly agree, but want to be a contrarian about it anyway.
Yes, they've been doing the Long Range Tactical for well over a decade, and changed it from VariX-III Tactical to Mark 4 LR/T, etc, but I am fairly certain this is a small segment in their overall sales, as the sportsmen worldwide far outpace the guys like us who might be also concerned with tactically sound optics too, though not have a job where we get to buy on a government PO.
Leupold is pretty stong, and yes their new lineup makes them stronger.
Nightvisionary
01-15-11, 14:09
What alot of you don't seem to realize is the Tactical market is a very small niche especially in regards to scopes for precision rifles. Nightforce and U.S. Optics make great stuff but they are small frys compared to Leupold. Those two companies survival depend on the tactical market but the vast majority of Leupold's sales, well over 80% are not in tactical.
Leupold makes and sells alot of stuff besides scopes. Laser rangefinders for hunting, golf and archery, trail cameras, binoculars, spotting scopes, bore sighters etc. That is not even counting the Redfield line of hunting scopes they now produce.
As good as the smaller companies may be the vast majority of precion rifle scopes used by the military are Leupold. When the U.S. Marine Corps wanted a 1.1x8 variable power scope designed and manufactured who did they go to? It wasn't U.S. Optics.
Im partial to Leupold because unlike the other manufacturers they manufacture their scopes in their own factory in the United States.
The_Biased_Observer
01-15-11, 14:44
When the U.S. Marine Corps wanted a 1.1x8 variable power scope designed and manufactured who did they go to? It wasn't U.S. Optics.
Im partial to Leupold because unlike the other manufacturers they manufacture their scopes in their own factory in the United States.
It's ironic that Leupold Tactical Division is led by a Marine. They have two others in upper level that are Marines.......
And they proudly used outsourced glass, like just about everyone else.
It's odd that American engineering still has yet to produce acceptable glass for high end optics, seems like a void that a could be filled and made profitable.
ICANHITHIMMAN
01-15-11, 18:22
It's ironic that Leupold Tactical Division is led by a Marine. They have two others in upper level that are Marines.......
And they proudly used outsourced glass, like just about everyone else.
It's odd that American engineering still has yet to produce acceptable glass for high end optics, seems like a void that a could be filled and made profitable.
Corning made the glass for the hubble. We just cost to much thats why.
What alot of you don't seem to realize is the Tactical market is a very small niche especially in regards to scopes for precision rifles. Nightforce and U.S. Optics make great stuff but they are small frys compared to Leupold. Those two companies survival depend on the tactical market but the vast majority of Leupold's sales, well over 80% are not in tactical.
Leupold makes and sells alot of stuff besides scopes. Laser rangefinders for hunting, golf and archery, trail cameras, binoculars, spotting scopes, bore sighters etc. That is not even counting the Redfield line of hunting scopes they now produce.
As good as the smaller companies may be the vast majority of precion rifle scopes used by the military are Leupold. When the U.S. Marine Corps wanted a 1.1x8 variable power scope designed and manufactured who did they go to? It wasn't U.S. Optics.
Im partial to Leupold because unlike the other manufacturers they manufacture their scopes in their own factory in the United States.
Your point wasnt missed on me and prob. anybody else...I realize now that the title of this thread could perhaps be misleading to people who like leupy binoc's or $300 hunting scopes.
...to people who like leupy binoc's or $300 hunting scopes.
:rolleyes:
The type of people who are here, and in general apparently on the internet, are far, far outnumbered by the typical consumer of Leupold's line of excellent hunting (http://www.chuckhawks.com/leupold_VX-7_scopes.htm), target and tactical products. A vast majority of them will pass their entire life without needing FFP, latest tactical whizbang reticles that take an Android to decipher, or zero stop equipped super BDC dials.
This new lineup will energize a very small niche of guys who take themselves way too seriously, and a lot of folks who make their living shooting guys in the face, but don't get to choose their optics specifically.
I'm sure all the guys using the older TS-30's, or other Mark 4's, were never as effective as they could have been because they were using underachieving Leupold optics on gov't issued killing devices. :no:
Nightvisionary
01-15-11, 22:55
It's ironic that Leupold Tactical Division is led by a Marine. They have two others in upper level that are Marines.......
And they proudly used outsourced glass, like just about everyone else.
It's odd that American engineering still has yet to produce acceptable glass for high end optics, seems like a void that a could be filled and made profitable.
It's not that American engineering doesn't have the knowledge to produce high quality optical lenses. The fact is that the manufacturing capacity just no longer exists in the U.S. It's just one of those items like television sets that are no longer manufactured here so everyone, Leupold, Nightforce, Nikon, US Optics etc purchase their glass from Asia.
Belmont31R
01-16-11, 00:22
It's not that American engineering doesn't have the knowledge to produce high quality optical lenses. The fact is that the manufacturing capacity just no longer exists in the U.S. It's just one of those items like television sets that are no longer manufactured here so everyone, Leupold, S&B, Nightforce, Nikon, US Optics etc purchase their glass from Asia.
S&B makes their own glass as does Zeiss and Swarovski.
:rolleyes:
The type of people who are here, and in general apparently on the internet, are far, far outnumbered by the typical consumer of Leupold's line of excellent hunting (http://www.chuckhawks.com/leupold_VX-7_scopes.htm), target and tactical products. A vast majority of them will pass their entire life without needing FFP, latest tactical whizbang reticles that take an Android to decipher, or zero stop equipped super BDC dials.
This new lineup will energize a very small niche of guys who take themselves way too seriously, and a lot of folks who make their living shooting guys in the face, but don't get to choose their optics specifically.
I'm sure all the guys using the older TS-30's, or other Mark 4's, were never as effective as they could have been because they were using underachieving Leupold optics on gov't issued killing devices. :no:
Its understandable why some people hate to see others eat a filet mignon when they decided to a sloppy joe, because after all in theory they both get the job done...right?
Again, not talking about Leupold's massive overall empire...just that wee little piece called the "tactical" segment....please leave out the discussion about the various good non tactical leupold stuff you own. Thanks:)
S&B makes their own glass as does Zeiss and Swarovski.
...USO?
Its understandable why some people hate to see others eat a filet mignon when they decided to a sloppy joe, because after all in theory they both get the job done...right?
Again, not talking about Leupold's massive overall empire...just that wee little piece called the "tactical" segment....please leave out the discussion about the various good non tactical leupold stuff you own. Thanks:)
I'm sure Uncle Sugar, and various LE agencies, had the pick of the litter for various optics purchases, and you still see quite a lot of 3.5-10 LR/T, Mark 4 10x, MR/T aka TS-30, etc on professional rifles. There always seems to be a disconnect with the latest trending on internet forums, and what you see on History Channel showing up @ the annual Ft. Benning International Sniper competition. Sure you see some teams with S&B optics, but my eye picks up more than a lion's share of Leupold.
I think S&B, USO, et al are wagging the dog with their extended and ever changing offerings. Convincing professional shooters that they need to have X features, and if they don't have X features, they are sub-standard. This applies to their competition with all other manufacturers, not just Leupold.
So Leupold is following suit and making optics to compete and fit specific requests. That's great and will augment their overall success within their vast empire optics to fill needs of a wider range of hunters, professionals/gov't shooters, bird watchers, golfers, etc.
"Last great hope"? Hardly.
Oddly enough, I just have these in my photobucket account because they were good hi-res pics, I have a couple others with NF and S&B scopes too. All perfectly adequate optics for trained professional shooters, despite the marketing that you have to have zero stops and a FFP reticle in order to make kills at distance.
http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee192/SHIVAN308/Stuff/82nd-SageM14.jpg
http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee192/SHIVAN308/Stuff/800px-Marines-with-sniper-rifle-2.jpg
http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee192/SHIVAN308/Stuff/800px-Marine-with-sniper-rifle-1.jpg
http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee192/SHIVAN308/Stuff/m14-a.jpg
http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee192/SHIVAN308/Stuff/m14-1.jpg
Those are some really fantastic shots...some of the best military in action shots Ive seen in some time:)
I am certainly not trying to bust your balls as this seems to be a back and forth thing...I just think you are taking this thing personally and viewing my topic in a much broader context than what I intended it to be viewed in.
Statements like despite having z stops, High speed turrets, FFP, etc.,.. the Leupold is essentially a NF, USO, or SB minus all the marketing and internet cool guy thing, are just plainly wrong. This is just not the case, those three optic companies and their LE/Mil optics with the most cutting edge technology and building methods are significantly better in the actual field than a yesteryear MK 4.
No doubt about it, a MK4 is a nice optic that served well in the past and sure it would serve well in the future, however its just not up to the same level as the current offerings from NF, USO, and SB. So nobody every said that the MK4 in the past or the few still being culled out in the inventory are beaters or didn't do a good job.
I can only really speak as to what NSW currently uses and that is almost if not all NF mixing it b/t both NXS Compacts, and the NXS 3.5 w. F1. They have not used MK4's as the standard in some time.
...the Leupold is essentially a NF, USO, or SB minus all the marketing and internet cool guy thing, are just plainly wrong.
Never my claim. RIF.
The context in which that was initially opened up, was that there were 200 million sportsmen who would never ever need such things, and for which Leupold had optics to cover that, and have for decades. That would include optics on fighting weapons, worldwide, in the military and various LE agencies.
The fact is the subset of people who actually need those features is pretty small, and pretty finite. I qualified it exactly in that way and made no assertion that Leupold's without those features were the same as NF, S&B or USO with them.
As I said, somewhere along the way the optics company started wagging the dog a bit.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.