View Full Version : My Sig P220 vs. HK USP45 comparative review
Jake Bauer
01-12-11, 23:06
In case you guys are looking at getting a new full size .45 and are looking at these two, here's my impressions on the both of them side by side.
http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/430601935/m/7730090732
F-Trooper05
01-13-11, 09:18
nm...
Having been a DOI Sig armorer for 15yrs now, I prefer the H&K .45acps overall. The P220s are very accurate, and have very nice DA/SA triggers. However, in order to keep my fellow officer's P220s running well I have to cut the service schedule in half and change out the recoil and magazine springs often enough to keep the classic timing malfunction from occuring. I carried a W. German P220 for 5 years, and after going through about 5k rounds a year on the pistol I got tired of the finicky nature of it and switched to a W. German P226 9mm and never looked back. The CBP guys I work with along with my local county guys use USP .45s and their guns see a lot of use. Their armorers are actually kinda lazy with their servicing, and their USPs keep on running like there is no tomorrow. I've gotten the same concensus from several agency armorers when I go to FLETC for training. The HK 45 seems to be a nice improvement on the USP, and I personally would take it over the P220.
gillian_seed
01-13-11, 13:11
Nice review, the only thing I can tell that you left out are your thoughts on the magazine release designs (personally, I think the USP's is awesome).
Other than that, your post is a nice comparison.
Just a side note...The spring around the barrel, or under the barrel in the HK's case, is called a recoil spring, not a mainspring, The mainspring powers the hammer...
Nice review. I'm not a big fan of DAO, slightly more fond of a DS/SA but love the setup on the 1911 with SAO. I see that the p220 and the p226 X-Five both come in SAO now, though expensive!!!!
Between the 2 make mine a HK USP .45 mine is stainless. My father wanted the 220 so i gave it to him. He also never warmed up to it and traded it. My HK shoots anything very well. In fact i just bought a USP 9mm s/s and it's seems as its going to be a excellent gun.
gtmtnbiker98
01-14-11, 07:58
Give me an HK, anyday. Cohen can keep his junk.
The next SIG I get I plan on getting a pre-2005 (pref mid-1990's) P220....The crap coming out of Exeter makes my blood boil. Who wants a frickin' rainbow finished gun (California maybe?)...Get rid of the Kimber Krew...
The next SIG I get I plan on getting a pre-2005 (pref mid-1990's) P220....The crap coming out of Exeter makes my blood boil. Who wants a frickin' rainbow finished gun (California maybe?)...Get rid of the Kimber Krew...
Just make sure you replace the recoil and magazine springs often. Even the old P220s were finicky. The original P220 was designed around the 9mm, and then modified to fire .45acp while still keeping the same external dimensions for holster compatability with the P226 and P220 9mm. The slide is too light resulting in a fast cycle speed, and the pistol is very dependent on the recoil and magazine springs in order to keep it reliable. A heavier slide keeps the cycle speed slower so that the magazine feeding can keep up. When the slide is too light, the slide cycles faster and if the magazine doesn't feed fast enough you'll have FTF. I've had my share of older P220s that suffered this problem if you didn't change out the springs every 3 years or 2-3k rounds. Sigs have always run better in 9mm for which the pistol was originally designed. Our 9mm W. German P228s and P226s have been exceptionally good service pistols since we started using them in 1991.
You should look in to the HK45 and compare the sig to that. That should be an easy hands down win for HK. If you haven't held on, it fits your hand like a glove, and it has adjustable back straps.
The next SIG I get I plan on getting a pre-2005 (pref mid-1990's) P220....The crap coming out of Exeter makes my blood boil. Who wants a frickin' rainbow finished gun (California maybe?)...Get rid of the Kimber Krew...
People are obviously buying it, or they wouldn't be making it.
At my LGS the fastest selling Sig P series is the Equinox, or the Platinum Elite. Plain jane ones, like the ones I purchased, would sit there for so long that when it sold, they didn't buy one to replace it in the case.
Most gun owners are gun collectors. They buy guns more to show them off, then to shoot them hard. So they tend to buy fancier guns.
Shooters realize that any custom finish will look horrible after a day on the range, and get plain jane guns that are cheaper, and they don't feel bad abusing.
That being said, I would never purchase another folded steel Sig (at least as a shooter). Just too much of a pain to maintain. Entropy neglects to mention, that if you don't change the roll pins every 5,000 rounds, they can break, and when they break your breech block comes loose, which often breaks the frame rails. The one piece stainless slides eliminate that problem.
Great honest review of my 2 favorite double action pistols. After reading this I had to break out my W German P220 and my .45 USP compact to look over side by side.
Magic_Salad0892
01-16-11, 10:25
H&K Pistols are made to meet the demands of military contracts.
SIG Pistols are not.
Obvious win.
H&K Pistols are made to meet the demands of military contracts.
SIG Pistols are not.
Obvious win.
That pretty much nails it, I would suggest that the OP try a HK45, or a HK45c, and compare either of those to a Sig...I'd be willing to bet they will change your mind...
swampfox1975
01-16-11, 12:48
The one pistol I sold I wished I never did was the HK usp expert.
Magic_Salad0892
01-16-11, 12:53
I've said it before. If Glocks weren't around. I'd be a full blown H&K user.
H&K Pistols are made to meet the demands of military contracts.
SIG Pistols are not.
Obvious win.
Huh? Sigs handguns are in the hands of more people in the military than Hks are.
Hk got a relatively small contract for the Hk 45c-SD and suddenly they are a military pistol. What are the Sig P226, P228, P239, and P229? Chopped liver?
Magic_Salad0892
01-16-11, 14:04
There are more H&K pistols in the military worldwide than there are SIG pistols.
SIG has a bad reputation for reliability due to their ''Kimberization'' after 2005. They earned that bad rep.
H&K has had a continuous track record for reliability.
SIG made the 516, and butchered the SIG 550 for civilians.
H&K made the 416, and gave us the HK 45, which is IMHO the best .45 caliber handgun ever produced.
H&K Pistols are made to meet the demands of military contracts.
SIG Pistols are not.
Obvious win.
The Sig P226 and P228 9mms were specifically contract miliary sidearms. They have been adopted and used by a wide variety of NATO countries, and even in the middle east and far east. Sig rifles are also widespread in military service.
That being said, Sig weaponry is on the decline in military and LE circles. The designs are aging, and Sig(USA and Germany) is having trouble adapting. The original P226/P228 as well as the 551 were designed around the properties of carbon steel which is strong and very elastic. Differential heat treatment was also easier to accomplish with carbon steel. Most stainless steels are not as versatile or tough, and require different manufacturing processes and specifications to make them perform just as well. Just as in the cutlery industry, almost all stainless steel can be made hard, but brittle......or soft, and shock resistant. You can't have both hardness, and elasticity as you can with carbon steels. This is why parts such as springs, pins, and control levers are still made for the most part with carbon steels. The good ole internal extractors of the P226/P228 are a thing of the past because modern day stainless steels do not have the elasticity to make a reliable internal extractor......and the market of today demands stainless steel and polymer. You can't just take a firearm designed around carbon steel, start using stainless steel, and expect it to perform just as well without some major design changes. A fellow officer knocked his P220 stainless slide off the cleaning table, it landed on a hardwood floor, and it literally bend the rail out of spec. The one stainless Sig that in my opinion that was engineered well was the P229 as it added more metal to the slide and helped make up for the weaker properties of stainless. Sig has not had a successful modern day design that has been awarded any major LE or military contracts. The Sig Pro had a lot of promise, but it was just too thick in the grip to get any widespread adoption outside of the French military. The P250?......a major blunder.
In the Federal LE system, agencies cannot sell aging service pistols into the free market. Another agency must purchase them, or they are to be destroyed. The Department of Interior is one of the few agencies that has been an interested purchaser of old Sigs and we recently aquired about 100k of them from various Federal agencies that are getting rid of their Sigs. Most of them are rewriting their SOPs for the adoption of different pistol makes and models.
I've said it before. If Glocks weren't around. I'd be a full blown H&K user.
+1000
That being said, Sig weaponry is on the decline in military and LE circles. The designs are aging, and Sig(USA and Germany) is having trouble adapting. The original P226/P228 as well as the 551 were designed around the properties of carbon steel which is strong and very elastic. Differential heat treatment was also easier to accomplish with carbon steel. Most stainless steels are not as versatile or tough, and require different manufacturing processes and specifications to make them perform just as well. Just as in the cutlery industry, almost all stainless steel can be made hard, but brittle......or soft, and shock resistant. You can't have both hardness, and elasticity as you can with carbon steels. This is why parts such as springs, pins, and control levers are still made for the most part with carbon steels. The good ole internal extractors of the P226/P228 are a thing of the past because modern day stainless steels do not have the elasticity to make a reliable internal extractor......and the market of today demands stainless steel and polymer. You can't just take a firearm designed around carbon steel, start using stainless steel, and expect it to perform just as well without some major design changes.
Huh?
The internal extractors went away because they needed to make the slides heavier to accommodate higher powered cartridges like 40 S&W. Sig had two choices, use stronger springs, or a heavier slide, they chose a heavier slide so even weaker people can rack the slide (which is why it's easier to women to work a full sized pistol over a compact model of the same caliber).
Also the carbon steel design is WEAK. They can and do crack, which is virtually unheard of on stainless steel models. On top of that the roll pins for the slide can break, when they break, can cause the slide to flex which can cause the rail on the frame to break. Which seems to blow you "designed to flex" theory out of the water.
The folded carbon steel slide is simply a hold over from an era when CNC milling wasn't commonly available, and so folding steel was cheaper to make. Most companies that made folded steel weapons have moved forward into CNC milling. I can't think of a major weapon design that still uses folded steel.
Now the only thing you did get right, IMO. Was the fact that Sig is lagging behind, living on dated designs. Both of their polymer designs simply didn't gain any traction on the market. Sig needs to go back to the drawing board, look at other designs, and make something better, just like Smith and Wesson did.
brushy bill
01-16-11, 15:06
I've said it before. If Glocks weren't around. I'd be a full blown H&K user.
Concur.
That's because our academy guns are run hard, and put away wet. We don't service them every 5k rounds because we like to know how much abuse they can take. Just curious, exactly how many Sigs do the users that you "know" have detailed records on dating back to 1991(DOI adoption of the P220, P226, and P228)?
Two actually.
Yep. And I'm sure that in addition to his nice severance package, he received some company stock and had to sign a non-disclosure and confidential agreement on company secrets. If so, Sig Sauer's success, equates to his success and retirement.
You do realize that Sig is a private company? Stock options are unusual outside of public companies, and companies planning to go public. So I doubt that he has any financial incentive for making Sig seem better than it is.
Though I am sure that he signed a NDA (as that is the norm these days), that doesn't prevent him from criticizing the company. In fact from his website earlier this week:
"You’ll also note that SIG intends to sell the P290 at an MSRP of $758. That’s more than $100 over the MSRP for a P250 subcompact. So winning one for free may be the only intelligent way to procure a P290."
That's because our academy guns are run hard, and put away wet. We don't service them every 5k rounds because we like to know how much abuse they can take. Just curious, exactly how many Sigs do the users that you "know" have detailed records on dating back to 1991(DOI adoption of the P220, P226, and P228)?
Yep. And I'm sure that in addition to his nice severance package, he received some company stock and had to sign a non-disclosure and confidential agreement on company secrets. If so, Sig Sauer's success, equates to his success and retirement.
This seems like we are getting into the realm of unsubstantiated conjecture here...
This seems like we are getting into the realm of unsubstantiated conjecture here...
You're right. Probably not appropriate to go there.
This seems like we are getting into the realm of unsubstantiated conjecture here...
In short.... someone is talking out their ass.
In short.... someone is talking out their ass.
It's funny how people start resorting to personal attacks when they don't like the presentation of factual, and/or more experienced information than their own which may break their confidence in their investments. :rolleyes:
H&K Pistols are made to meet the demands of military contracts.
SIG Pistols are not.
Obvious win.
Hahaha! You better check your records there, bud.
The SIG P226 is the issued pistol to the majority of the prominent special operations forces of the world.
Does NSW, the British SAS & SBS, and Canada's JTF-2 (just to name a few) mean anything? There's more, but I got tired of typing.
BTW... the British just selected the P226 to be their standard sidearm, replacing the Hi-Power (OMG! They went from a sa to da/sa!), just like their SOF's did.
Hahaha! You better check your records there, bud.
The SIG P226 is the issued pistol to the majority of the prominent special operations forces of the world.
Does NSW, the British SAS & SBS, and Canada's JTF-2 (just to name a few) mean anything? There's more, but I got tired of typing.
BTW... the British just selected the P226 to be their standard sidearm, replacing the Hi-Power (OMG! They went from a sa to da/sa!), just like their SOF's did.
You completely missed the point. The current Sig typically(yes, usually - don't try to use a one-off as a flagship example) makes pistols and then either tries to sell them to agencies or modifies them to meet requirements for contracts. H&K, on the other hand, typically (there's that key word again) makes pistols to meet contract requirements when requests for pistols are made.
Just because an agency or military uses a Sig does not mean that specific model was originally designed to meet the specs of the contract, it just means that it either already meets or exceeds spec or that it was modified to meet spec (the same could be said of many weapons, even some HK's). While the end-result for that specific pistol might be the same as one designed from the ground-up for a contract, it's day and night in terms of overall company quality; one company is pushing out minimally-acceptable quality in hopes of winning a contract, the other is building a pistol entirely around the requirements.
Don't confuse the new Sigs with the old Sigs - it's a different company in different times now.
So the stainless slide Sig P220's have reliability issues, due to their internal extractors?
So the stainless slide Sig P220's have reliability issues, due to their internal extractors?
Sig discontinued the P220 line with internal extractors a couple of years ago in favor of the standard external extractor setup. There were too many problems with reliable extraction with the stainless internal extractors. Another armorer I work with who can't bring himself to use anything other than .45acp currently uses a stainless 5" P220 with internal extractor. He has had numerous extractor issues with the stock part, and opted to have a custom extractor made to correct his issues. He's had to "tweak" his P220s a lot over the years, while I've never had to do anything other than use stock parts in 9mm Sigs. The Sig Pro series uses an internal extractor, but I've never worked on those and don't know the specifics of the design. A major benefit of an internal extractor is that it is highly durable. They retain their strength much longer than spring extractors, and they don't bend or pop out if you get a case burst. Every KB I've seen with an external extractor it has popped out, or it has bent out of spec. Glocks, Sigs, H&Ks,......all of them with external extractors I have seen do this.
You completely missed the point. The current Sig typically(yes, usually - don't try to use a one-off as a flagship example) makes pistols and then either tries to sell them to agencies or modifies them to meet requirements for contracts. H&K, on the other hand, typically (there's that key word again) makes pistols to meet contract requirements when requests for pistols are made.
Just because an agency or military uses a Sig does not mean that specific model was originally designed to meet the specs of the contract, it just means that it either already meets or exceeds spec or that it was modified to meet spec (the same could be said of many weapons, even some HK's). While the end-result for that specific pistol might be the same as one designed from the ground-up for a contract, it's day and night in terms of overall company quality; one company is pushing out minimally-acceptable quality in hopes of winning a contract, the other is building a pistol entirely around the requirements.
Don't confuse the new Sigs with the old Sigs - it's a different company in different times now.
You can say the same thing for all Hks since after the USP (which was designed for the LEO market). The Hk45 is a modification of the USP using a P2000 slide. Other than the grip I don't believe there is nothing new.
KalashniKEV
01-17-11, 09:28
There are more H&K pistols in the military worldwide than there are SIG pistols.
OMGosh... is that counting all the Mk. 23's riding the rack?
I've found the folded vs. stainless discussion in this thread to be enlightening. I had always heard everyone in the world stress the superiority of the stamped slide guns over stainless.
That may be due to Kimberization, or the redesign... who knows?
Make mine stamped though. Preferably with a "W." on the slide.
I used to be a Sig maniac and started with a Sig 220 .45 in 1979 (imported by Browning).
But when I started using Sigs not made in Germany, I started to become disappointed.
Nice write up though. I still have 2 Sig 220s for now.
You can say the same thing for all Hks since after the USP (which was designed for the LEO market). The Hk45 is a modification of the USP using a P2000 slide. Other than the grip I don't believe there is nothing new.
I'm not sure where you heard that, but the HK45 was designed entirely to meet the requirements of the US Military Joint Combat Pistol Program (http://www.hk-usa.com/military_products/hk45_general.asp). Whatever similarities it shares with other guns are done so because the requirements dictated it, not for the sake of simply giving the gun a new designation for marketing. It was designed first and foremost as a contract gun. They even brought in Larry Vickers to get advice on how design the gun to best meet the needs of modern-day handgun tactics and combat.
Further, the P2000 is a completely different gun from the USP. Most H&K users don't even consider the P2000 to be a combat pistol, as the USP is (not that it isn't, but it's geared more for EDC than straight-out ruggedness in a combat environment). The same opinion is typically shared for the P30. Not surprising, as the P30 is a P2000 with upgrades (it was originally called the P3000, the next in the "P" line of pistols).
I'm not sure where you heard that, but the HK45 was designed entirely to meet the requirements of the US Military Joint Combat Pistol Program (http://www.hk-usa.com/military_products/hk45_general.asp). Whatever similarities it shares with other guns are done so because the requirements dictated it, not for the sake of simply giving the gun a new designation for marketing. It was designed first and foremost as a contract gun. They even brought in Larry Vickers to get advice on how design the gun to best meet the needs of modern-day handgun tactics and combat.
Further, the P2000 is a completely different gun from the USP. Most H&K users don't even consider the P2000 to be a combat pistol, as the USP is (not that it isn't, but it's geared more for EDC than straight-out ruggedness in a combat environment). The same opinion is typically shared for the P30. Not surprising, as the P30 is a P2000 with upgrades (it was originally called the P3000, the next in the "P" line of pistols).
I remember that the HK 45 was for submission for the new pistol tests, but I dont remember it being a complete redesign. I think it's more of an updated version to a 15 year old pistol. Ergos are different for sure. That was the one thing many complained about on the USP. Very accurate, easily controllable pistol with questionable ergos. The internals of the HK 45 though are, I believe, basically the same as the USP, with slight technological improvements.
This is all kind of off the subject, so back to the original subject. I've shot both the HK USP 45 and the Sig P220 and I think the USP is much easier pistol to handle. I love the Sig P22X series in 9mm. I think it's one of the best 9mm pistols out there, but in .45 acp, I've found the P220 to be very hard to handle. For me,recoil was much heavier than the USP, Glock or M&P. It was accurate, but wouldn't be my first choice in .45.
So they designed it from the ground up as a new design? Your version doesn't match what Vickers and Hackathorn say about the history of the Hk 45s development.
Magic_Salad0892
01-17-11, 13:11
I haven't finished reading the thread yet.
But I will say:
I'm not going to continue the debate. I was wrong.
Thanks for correcting me Entropy, and others.
So they designed it from the ground up as a new design? Your version doesn't match what Vickers and Hackathorn say about the history of the Hk 45s development.
I never said it was developed from the "ground-up"; arguing semantics is disingenuous. You can only build so many things from the "ground-up" before you finally reach a design that cannot practically be improved without unrealistic costs and little gain. The entire design that the H&K45 is based is a contract-built pistol - the USP45, which itself is built on another contract pistol, the Mk23. Arguing that the HK45 isn't a "contract weapon" because it uses the USP's internals is like saying that an M-4 isn't a contract weapon because it uses the same pistol grip as an M16. There are many times where a design already meets specifications and it doesn't make sense not to use it.
What I said it was developed for a specific contract. The HK45 didn't exist until the need for one developed, that was my only point. Whether or not it uses the internals of a USP45 previously doesn't matter, since 1) the gun was built solely for the contract and 2) the design was updated/modified as needed. Further, the USP itself was a contract pistol, so I'm not sure how refining an already-contracted gun conflicts with the original statement. H&K typically builds weapons for contracts; that's their business model and they've done so for the last 50+ years. This is a far cry from taking a civilian/commercial pistol, changing some internal components, and then badging it as a military pistol to meet a contract's requirements.
How many "commercial" pistol lines (meaning models originally developed solely for commercial end-users) does H&K currently make? Two: The P2000 and the P30. Now how many does Sig make? ;)
Magic_Salad0892
01-17-11, 13:27
How many "commercial" pistol lines (meaning models originally developed solely for commercial end-users) does H&K currently make? Two: The P2000 and the P30. Now how many does Sig make? ;)
I would say four.
USP Elite series, and the HK 45C.
I would say four.
USP Elite series, and the HK 45C.
If you take into account modifications of a variant and count those as models, then the numbers for Sig go up even higher. I was simply counting the series as one altogether. If you split it down into specific models (even if the original was based on a contract weapon), then the numbers for Sig go even higher, into the TENS of models.
The HK45C is actually a contract weapon - it's just offered without a threaded barrel and suppressor sights to civilians. You can buy the barrel directly from HK. One guy got super-lucky this week and HK accidentally sent his FFL a SOCOM HK45C with a threaded barrel (but it was marked "correctly" as a HK45C). The post is on hkpro.com right now.
Magic_Salad0892
01-17-11, 13:42
The HK45C is actually a contract weapon (HK45CT)- it's just offered without a threaded barrel to civilians. One guy got super-lucky this week and HK accidentally sent his FFL a SOCOM HK45C with a threaded barrel (but it was marked "correctly" as a HK45C). The post is on hkpro.com right now.
Wow. That's a pretty sweet mixup.
Do you know if there's any source as to if HK will sell the HK45/C threaded barrels to civis? (Or P30 threaded barrels for us 9x19mm users.)
Wow. That's a pretty sweet mixup.
Do you know if there's any source as to if HK will sell the HK45/C threaded barrels to civis? (Or P30 threaded barrels for us 9x19mm users.)
HK sells them directly, or you can buy them online here:
http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/HK45C-Compact-Tactical-Barrel-213p1036.htm
The only other difference between the HK45c and the SOCOM model (besides the fact it's a V3 variant, which is an easily-done modular conversion) are tall suppressor sights, which HK is not selling at the moment.
HK doesn't make threaded barrels for the P30 (as it's a commercial model), but EFK Firedragon makes aftermarket barrels for it:
http://www.efkfiredragon.com/products.php?cat=1471
F-Trooper05
01-17-11, 14:44
HK doesn't make threaded barrels for the P30 (as it's a commercial model)cat=1471[/url]
Threaded barrels for the P30 are currently in development at Oberndorf.
Threaded barrels for the P30 are currently in development at Oberndorf.
Oh snaps! Awesome!
What I said it was developed for a specific contract. The HK45 didn't exist until the need for one developed, that was my only point. Whether or not it uses the internals of a USP45 previously doesn't matter, since 1) the gun was built solely for the contract and 2) the design was updated/modified as needed. Further, the USP itself was a contract pistol, so I'm not sure how refining an already-contracted gun conflicts with the original statement. H&K typically builds weapons for contracts; that's their business model and they've done so for the last 50+ years. This is a far cry from taking a civilian/commercial pistol, changing some internal components, and then badging it as a military pistol to meet a contract's requirements.
And that is different from the P226 which was developed specfically for the XM9 trials? And the P220? Of the classic P series most were designed for specfic contracts. Those were later modified to fit other contracts, but to claim that the Hk45 is a contract weapon and the P226 and P220 aren't is being biased.
KalashniKEV
01-17-11, 15:26
Is it more better if it's designed to meet "contract requirements?"
Whose "contract requirements?" Bissel PowerForce?
Contract requirements have kept Glock from participating in service pistol trials (no manual safety). They've also apparently made the Crown Vic the most popular police car.
Is a Crown Vic the best car?
"Contract requirements" are only good when they happen to be exactly the same as "your requirements."
And that is different from the P226 which was developed specfically for the XM9 trials? And the P220? Of the classic P series most were designed for specfic contracts. Those were later modified to fit other contracts, but to claim that the Hk45 is a contract weapon and the P226 and P220 aren't is being biased.
I never said the P226 wasn't a contract weapon, nor the P220. What I said was that the philosophies and business practices of the companies differ to the point that the majority of Sigs are no longer what they once were and that their approach to marketing and manufacturing is to blame.
Further, the P226 was originally developed as a prototype in 1980, back when Sig used to be one of the top (if not THE top) handgun manufacturer. Using the P226 as an example to validate Sigs current existence, especially in light of grotesque failures (such as the P250), is, again, disingenuous. Sig has went from producing weapons that meet requirements of serious end-users to trying to fill up the civvy market with every variation of handgun known to man, using cheap(er) materials and shoddy QA/QC to cut costs.
My original post stated the above quite clearly. I'm a huge fan of the original Sigs (my first handgun was a P226), but the "new" Sig-Sauer is nothing more than a marketing ploy, dumping out what would seem to be tens of models of handguns per year and then rebadging/modifying them after the fact to try to win contracts. A quick search on Google (and even on this board) will yield proof for that.
My original post stated the above quite clearly. I'm a huge fan of the original Sigs (my first handgun was a P226), but the "new" Sig-Sauer is nothing more than a marketing ploy, dumping out what would seem to be tens of models of handguns per year and then rebadging/modifying them after the fact to try to win contracts. A quick search on Google (and even on this board) will yield proof for that.
And that marketing crap sells. People seem to forget that this is a business. When the market is saturated you have to do something to stand out from the crowd, the gun of the week series from Sig sells guns to collectors that likely already have their fill of plain jane guns.
If you don't like the guns of the week don't buy them, Sig still ships plain jane guns. And still responds to contract requests, the E2 grip, P220 Combat (which was designed for the same competition that the Hk45 was), and the SRT package are examples of Sig responding to contracts.
And the Hk45 is nothing new they took the proven USP fire control and combined with a P2000 slide. That is no different from Sig taking the P220, putting a spec'd rail, and doing the same process to the internals that they do to the NSW 226s.
And that marketing crap sells. People seem to forget that this is a business. When the market is saturated you have to do something to stand out from the crowd, the gun of the week series from Sig sells guns to collectors that likely already have their fill of plain jane guns.
And this is the underlying problem. In such an effort to "make money" with their chosen niche, they've reduced the quality by spreading their losses over their entire line of pistols by catering to "everyone." You've just come full circle to what I stated in my first post.
And again, the P226 is 21 years old - any use of it is a reflection of what Sig used to be and of the new company milking it for all it's worth. The success and derivatives of the P226 model have no bearing on the quality or ingenuity of today's Sig-Sauer. If the P226 works, then there's no reason not to re-use it (similar to how H&K used a majority of the USP's internals for the HK45). The problem is, it was made by the OLD Sig Sauer. What has the "new" Sig managed to produce? A more accurate example would be the P250, a CURRENT "contract" gun for Sig (and we all know how that went - aside from a Federal Agency recalling them, gun stores can't even give them away, much less sell them below cost).
I'm not bashing Sigs, I'm pointing out why their reputation is suffering and why it will continue to suffer until they decide to focus once again on quality.
Interview with Larry Vickers and Ken Hackathorn about the HK45.
http://pistol-training.com/articles/hk45-interview-with-ken-hackathorn-and-larry-vickers
KalashniKEV
01-17-11, 16:41
And that marketing crap sells. People seem to forget that this is a business.
An oversimplified summary would be to say that back in the day there was Glock, SIG, HK, and fancy 1911 guys.
Fancy 1911 guys got to play Barbie and make their guns "special and unique."
There was in fact a market for "same, but different."
Glock's response was, "I don't care. No, you may not have a manual safety. No, you may not have a single stack 9. No, you may not have removable backstraps (this was later, and just recently reversed), every Glock is exactly the same. If you put it down, remember your serial number. Stop asking for stuff."
HK's response was, "You want what? Who are you? How many thousands do you want? Oh, wait... you're a consumer? *CLICK*
SIG's response was, "OK, we're on it! *BOOM* Equinox, Elite, Blackwater, Platinum Elite, Elite Dark, Gadsden Flags, Gun Rights, super cool-guy tan, what... you want a rainbow gun? Who cares! You got one anyway! What else, 1911s? *BOOM*
If they did it right, and the quality didn't suffer, that would have been great... but it did. There's nothing wrong with responding to the market, so long as you continue to produce a solid product, just in new flavors.
I hear things are getting back on track, and I wish them luck. I really like the E2s and I hope they do well... until they get right though there's nothing wrong with an old stamped slide SIG.
And this is the underlying problem. In such an effort to "make money" with their chosen niche, they've reduced the quality by spreading their losses over their entire line of pistols by catering to "everyone." You've just come full circle to what I stated in my first post.
Did the USP Expert detract from the USP line? No, making different models for commercial sale doesn't detract from the base pistol. If you want the base pistol, buy the base pistol.
And again, the P226 is 21 years old - any use of it is a reflection of what Sig used to be and of the new company milking it for all it's worth. The success and derivatives of the P226 model have no bearing on the quality or ingenuity of today's Sig-Sauer. If the P226 works, then there's no reason not to re-use it (similar to how H&K used a majority of the USP's internals for the HK45). The problem is, it was made by the OLD Sig Sauer. What has the "new" Sig managed to produce? A more accurate example would be the P250, a CURRENT "contract" gun for Sig (and we all know how that went - aside from a Federal Agency recalling them, gun stores can't even give them away, much less sell them below cost).
I agree the Classic series, is the Classic series, any opinions on the classic series do not apply to the GSR, P238, P250, or the P290. But this thread is about the CLASSIC series.
You constantly bring up the P250, which has no bearing on this thread.
I'm not bashing Sigs, I'm pointing out why their reputation is suffering and why it will continue to suffer until they decide to focus once again on quality.
If they focused on quality they would be out of business unless they bring out a new design which is lower cost to produce. I remember on another forum where someone close to Sig, mentioned that if Sig went back to Germany level QC methods, the plain jane Sig Classic, which has a street price of $750, would cost easily $1,000. Would any customer spend twice the price for a P226 then what a Glock goes for?
Sig's out sourcing of parts production, has allowed it to keep it's prices stable (of the base models that agencies order) despite their material costs rising dramatically. Cohen with his cost cutting, and his good marketing is probably the only thing that is keeping Sig in business, because it's engineering department ain't helping if the P250 was the best that they can come up with.
And this is the underlying problem. In such an effort to "make money" with their chosen niche, they've reduced the quality by spreading their losses over their entire line of pistols by catering to "everyone." You've just come full circle to what I stated in my first post.
Very true. Expanding the number of production lines have often led to quality control problems for US manufacturers in the auto industry. Either too much capital is used to operate mutiple lines, or machinery is switched back and forth to accomidate the production variants leading to calibration problems.
And again, the P226 is 21 years old - any use of it is a reflection of what Sig used to be and of the new company milking it for all it's worth.
Actually the P226 9mm was developted for the US XM9 trials of 1982-1984. The Beretta M9 and Sig P226 passed the testing, but Beretta won the army contract due to a lower bid. The US Navy, US Air Force, and multiple domestic agencies purchased many P226 and/or P228 9mm pistols though due to its stellar performance.
Would any customer spend twice the price for a P226 then what a Glock goes for?
Of course they would. They already do every time they buy an HK or a Custom 1911. People will pay for quality - I will pay for quality. It's the reason I bought my original P226 and the reason I prefer Noveske and BCM AR's to Bushmasters. What people won't pay for is a company touting previous reputation as an excuse for high prices and I suspect that's what is happening with the Sig-Sauer crowd now.
Sig's out sourcing of parts production, has allowed it to keep it's prices stable despite their material costs rising dramatically. Cohen with his cost cutting, and his good marketing is probably the only thing that is keeping Sig in business, because it's engineering department ain't helping if the P250 was the best that they can come up with.
Sig wouldn't have had to outsource, or cost-cut, if they hadn't diversified in the first place. Quantity over quality is NEVER good for business in the long run, unless your costs are so low that what you're selling is easily replaceable at a low cost to the consumer. Sigs are not at $600 a gun, $500 a gun, or even $400 a gun. Instead, they're priced $700+, which is great until you see what that same $700 could buy you from HK or Glock - a gun that's virtually 100% reliable (or in the case of a Glock, an entire loadout of mags + holster + light).
Your comment about the P250, again, is exactly my point. Sig has gotten themselves pinned into a corner by the very business practices that "helped them survive" - somehow I don't really call that surviving. Their lack of focus on quality led to their latest flagship pistol, the P250, being an epic failure. I'm not focusing on the P250 to detract from the classic series, I'm simply pointing out that the P250 IS the current Sig; it's their latest and greatest and if that's the case, what does that say about the company? Models derived from the P226 are only helping them tread water for the time being.
I think all in all we agree, I just see Sig-Sauers business practices as what got them into trouble, not what saved them.
PPGMD knows what he's talking about regarding SIGs, and everything that he has posted in this thread is spot on.
I honestly do not know why there is a debate about the old carbon steel slides vs the stainless slides. Anybody who has been around SIGs for any amount of time knows that the newer stainless models are a much better platform for "hard use." They are stronger, less prone to rust and require less maintenance. There is a reason why certain contracts asked for the stainless slides.
I have both German & American made SIGs. My preference is for the US made models with the stainless slide for several reasons. The finsh on them is head and shoulders above any of my German models, the triggers are much smoother and they require less maintenance. The German SIGs were known to rust and the finish disappears if you look at them. I went and shot one of my German models this morning and after the first magazine, I was kicking myself for not bringing my work gun (US made P226R), or my wifes new (made 12/10) P239 SAS, which has the best trigger that I have ever felt on a new SIG.
As PPGMD said, SIG is a business, and they are in business to make money. Companies like Glock and S&W changed the gun business. They can make whole guns cheaper than what it costs to make a P- Series frame. SIG, along with other companies such as Beretta, had to cut costs (MIM parts, plastic guide rods)to try and keep their prices lower just to compete. Both of them also tried to enter the "cheap gun" game to boost their bottom line and they failed at it. The P250 is a failure of epic proportions and is a black eye on the company, but in no way should that reflect on the P-Series, just as the POS Sigma that S&W makes should not reflect on the M&P series. SIG has also (reportedly) had some issues with some of their "upgrades" such as the E2 models, which could have been avoided with more testing. But, what company doesn't have teething issues with new models, such as the Glock Gen4 for example?
Do I like the few MIM parts that are in the current P-Series SIGs? No, but they have not failed me either. They are more of an eyesore (ugly) than anything. You will be hard pressed to find any gun that does not use MIM parts these days. At least the frame rails aren't MIM on the P-Series, unlike some of the new kool-aid flavors of the month. :eek:
I'm lucky to have a choice of what I want to carry at work (1911's,HK,SIG,S&W,Beretta,XD's,Glock in 9,40 & 45) and I choose to carry the 226 9mm. That also gives me a wide variety of firearms to test/shoot. It also lets me see what is having problems and what doesn't over a wide variety with a large(r) sample size greater than 1. The SIGs (new or old) and H&K's are above all others in reliabilty from what I have seen, but other people's mileage may vary.
Here's a little quote from a guy that used to work at SIG during their highly sought after stamped slide "glory days." ;)
My new made one is great (except for mag issues, which were taken care of by Sig), my old one is great. Every manufacturer has issues from time to time. When demand outpaces supply, corners are cut. I personally worked for Sigarms in Exeter back in the 90's and I can say without a doubt when production deadlines had to be met guns were slammed together and shipped without a proof round or any other rounds being fired on orders from the bosses. Is it right? Hell no, but that's what happens. Especially since at the time the employees were paid and treated like crap. There were always instances such as having to hone the muzzle end of the slide for the barrel to fit properly and having to whack the barrel into the breechblock repeatedly with a hammer to get it to seat right.
Of course they would. They already do every time they buy an HK or a Custom 1911. People will pay for quality - I will pay for quality. It's the reason I bought my original P226 and the reason I prefer Noveske and BCM AR's to Bushmasters. What people won't pay for is a company touting previous reputation as an excuse for high prices and I suspect that's what is happening with the Sig-Sauer crowd now.
First Hk street prices run about the same as a plain jane Sig street prices. And BCM isn't too far out of line from Colt, it's only real competitor.
Second you are confusing the consumer market, with the government contracts which still make up significant portion of Sig's shipped pistols yearly. And in that market, though occasionally you see agencies pick up semi-custom 1911s, it's mostly for small tactical teams which have a higher budget per an officer, I haven't heard of a single major agency pick up an extremely expensive pistol as general issue.
Sig wouldn't have had to outsource, or cost-cut, if they hadn't diversified in the first place. Quantity over quality is NEVER good for business in the long run, unless your costs are so low that what you're selling is easily replaceable at a low cost to the consumer. Sigs are not at $600 a gun, $500 a gun, or even $400 a gun. Instead, they're priced $700+, which is great until you see what that same $700 could buy you from Glock or HK.
Umm Sig was outsourcing before they diversified. Even the German's say the writing on the wall. Their pistols were costing too much, they needed to get the costs down.
Quality over quantity only works if you want to be a small shop, they aren't a semi-custom 1911 shop with maybe a couple of dozen employees, Sig NH has over 200 employees. Anyways it's obviously you've never spent much time in the upper level of the manufacturing sector.
Your comment about the P250, again, is exactly my point. Sig has gotten themselves pinned into a corner by the very business practices that "helped them survive" - somehow I don't really call that surviving. Their lack of focus on quality led to their latest flagship pistol, the P250, being an epic failure. I'm not focusing on the P250 to detract from the classic series, I'm simply pointing out that the P250 IS the current Sig; it's their latest and greatest and if that's the case, what does that say about the company? Models derived from the P226 are only helping them tread water for the time being.
Yes the P250 was a huge failure, but at least they are trying, how many huge failures did Smith and Wesson make before they hit it out of the park with the M&P? Or how many innovative (and yes the idea behind the P250 is innovative), but not well selling designs did Hk make before they came up with the USP?
I think all in all we agree, I just see Sig-Sauers business practices as what got them into trouble, not what saved them.
I disagree, I don't think Sig Sauer at the very least would be hurting severely today if it weren't for Cohen, and the business practices that he brought with him.
...but not well selling designs did Hk make before they came up with the USP?
Not to ignore the rest of your post, but you just asked the magic question. The answer is... ZERO (at least for their intermediate history - I'm not a complete HK buff). The designs that they made that didn't "take off" remained prototypes or one-off production runs specifically for the purpose of arousing interest. When (and only when) someone expressed complete and utter interest in a prototype did it hit production.
HK doesn't have the issues that Sig does because HK hasn't and doesn't manufacture weapons until their is a need for them, which was exactly what my first post was about; it's night and day in terms of business practices.
For all intents and purposes, you won't fail when you only manufacture items that are needed. That was all I said in my first post and that's all I've attempted to state since then. Trying to stimulate business by producing something you hope people will buy is nothing more than a blind shot in the dark.
Not to ignore the rest of your post, but you just asked the magic question. The answer is... ZERO. The designs that they made that didn't "take off" remained prototypes or one-off production runs specifically for the purpose of arousing interest. When (and only when) someone expressed complete and utter interest in a prototype did it hit production.
HK doesn't have the issues that Sig does because HK hasn't and doesn't manufacture weapons until their is a need for them, which was exactly what my first post was about; it's night and day in terms of business practices.
For all intents and purposes, you won't fail when you only manufacture items that are needed. That was all I said in my first post and that's all I've attempted to state since then. Trying to stimulate business by producing something you hope people will buy is nothing more than a blind shot in the dark.
And how many times has H&K been bankrupt or close to bankruptcy?;)
You have to build what people want/demand or you will be out of business in no time. Humans like variety....
DiabhailGadhar
01-29-11, 01:02
M11 anyone ever heard of that one, turns out our SEALs have!? I didn't see it mentioned but I was just skimming after the bickering started. :p
M11 anyone ever heard of that one, turns out our SEALs have!? I didn't see it mentioned but I was just skimming after the bickering started. :p
It's a great pistol. It is the original stamped slide configuration with the ultra durable internal extractor and made in W. Germany. I have two of them. However, the SEAL's M11s are old, and they have not procured any more Sigs from the current crop of Sig Sauer products. Instead, they have been procuring HK 45cs as a replacement for the M11. They already have HK MK23s, but due to their size and weight they are reserved for special operations.
It's a great pistol. It is the original stamped slide configuration with the ultra durable internal extractor and made in W. Germany. I have two of them. However, the SEAL's M11s are old, and they have not procured any more Sigs from the current crop of Sig Sauer products. Instead, they have been procuring HK 45cs as a replacement for the M11. They already have HK MK23s, but due to their size and weight they are reserved for special operations.
Seriously do you just make stuff up as you go along? Every couple of years you see a NSW contract for Sigs on the FBO (government contracting office) website.
This is the latest contract that the NSW has awarded Sig:
https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=dbc78073ac1f77db0b3ca1cd80c6d163&tab=core&_cview=0
Last one I saw was in early 2009, this one looks to be a little longer term then that one.
For those that don't know the Mk25 is what the Navy calls the Sig P226.
Also the M11 has been replaced by the P239, not by the Hk45c. The Hk45c was purchased to replace the Mk23. The Hk45c is for people that dive, as the P226 just don't do well on deep dives.
It's a great pistol. It is the original stamped slide configuration with the ultra durable internal extractor and made in W. Germany. I have two of them. However, the SEAL's M11s are old, and they have not procured any more Sigs from the current crop of Sig Sauer products. Instead, they have been procuring HK 45cs as a replacement for the M11. They already have HK MK23s, but due to their size and weight they are reserved for special operations.
You have NO idea what you're talking about.
Bulldog7972
01-29-11, 15:40
Seriously do you just make stuff up as you go along? Every couple of years you see a NSW contract for Sigs on the FBO (government contracting office) website.
This is the latest contract that the NSW has awarded Sig:
https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=dbc78073ac1f77db0b3ca1cd80c6d163&tab=core&_cview=0
Last one I saw was in early 2009, this one looks to be a little longer term then that one.
For those that don't know the Mk25 is what the Navy calls the Sig P226.
Also the M11 has been replaced by the P239, not by the Hk45c. The Hk45c was purchased to replace the Mk23. The Hk45c is for people that dive, as the P226 just don't do well on deep dives.
Did the SEALS ever even carry the 228? The was a SEAL (claimed to be anyway)on Sig Forum that claimed that the 239 was the favored pistol over the 226 by most SEALS.
Did the SEALS ever even carry the 228? The was a SEAL (claimed to be anyway)on Sig Forum that claimed that the 239 was the favored pistol over the 226 by most SEALS.
I know that they had them, I don't know how they were used operationally because the SEALs I know were from after the M11 was mostly retired.
Accuracy at 21 feet if you are talking slow fire than that is JMO not a big deal for putting one against the other.
Accuracy is the shooter and how he or she shoots a pistol.
Ranson rest will give you Mechanical accuracy of each and for me it's 10 shot groups at 25 yards and 50 yards.
If it's slow fire 21 feet and you can't put rounds in the same hole it's the shooter more than anything.
I shoot at 25 meters 99% of my range time and just don't get the whole 21 or even 30 foot slow fire talks about how one or another pistol shoots in someones hands.
Not trying to start a war but accuracy is the shooter
unless you are talking Mechanical accuracy and 21 feet is no big deal in how a pistol groups unless it has a very small barrel.
It's a great pistol. It is the original stamped slide configuration with the ultra durable internal extractor and made in W. Germany. I have two of them. However, the SEAL's M11s are old, and they have not procured any more Sigs from the current crop of Sig Sauer products. Instead, they have been procuring HK 45cs as a replacement for the M11. They already have HK MK23s, but due to their size and weight they are reserved for special operations.
I just wanted to touch on this post, since it's full of bad info.
Entropy, the SEALs' standard issue pistol is the P226, and has been since the late 80's. They procure new SIGs all of the time, and PPGMD proved that to you. P239's are also available to them, which replaced the M11 (P228), for other types of work such as plainclothes and CP. It seems to be that all of the old stamped slides have been phased out in favor of the new(er) stainless slide models (again, that's called a clue).
The HK45CT's are not a replacement for the SIGs. The P226's will still continue to be the standard issue pistol. The Mk23's were turned into CRANE quite a while ago, leaving the Teams without a suppressed pistol platform. The new HK's are to fill that role, and probably others since it's size is much more suitable for carry compared to the Mk23. As of now, only one Team/Group is getting the HK45CT's, and it's a relatively small contract of 400-500 pistols.
I'm not a SEAL or .mil, but this is the info that I was told from guys that are still active in that community, so I tend to think that it's correct.
With a quick Google search, I found these photos of a NSW armory and pistols. You can see all of the American made (GASP!) and stainless slide (GASP!) SIGs in their glory. In one of them, you can see the P228's have tags with an "X" on them. I have no idea what that means, but I would guess that's to indicate not to use them.
P239's
http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/1483/p239s.jpg
P226's & P228's
http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/5952/p226sp228s.jpg
This is a bit OT, but I just got a USP Tactical 45 and put a few rounds through it. WOW...I can't believe how accurate it is right out of the box. I was able to keep everything in a 6" group at 25 yards with my first 2 mags! This was indoors with poor lighting. I know that's not a true test of accuracy, but it's going to shoot better than me.
I do need to get some night sights for this gun and I think I'll head over the HK forums to research this, because I need something that will work with the AAC TiRant that I am getting for it. The trigger reset is very different from my Glocks, and it will take some time getting used to.
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