View Full Version : Need info - German Luger ??
A friend of mine has had this pistol in his family for a while and we got to talking about older guns the other day whilst sipping back a beer or two. He is an older guy and has said it's not really something he wants to hold onto any longer, but doesn't have the first clue as to it's value. Now, I'm not selling it or profiting from it's sale in any way (but I might actually buy it if I can afford it once I figure out how much it's worth.
I told him I'd ask the smart folks here on M4carbine.net if they had any info or could direct me where to get more info on it.
From what I know of them, it appears to be a German Luger with matching serial numbers. He's also got some random stuff that his Grandfather brought back from the war. I didn't ask where he served but they are interesting to be sure. There is one disturbing picture, so I'll just link that one rather than have it show in the post.
Any help or information you can provide would be much appreciated.
Thank you,
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r127/Zhurdan/Rons%20pistol/100_0703.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r127/Zhurdan/Rons%20pistol/100_0705.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r127/Zhurdan/Rons%20pistol/100_0706.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r127/Zhurdan/Rons%20pistol/100_0699.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r127/Zhurdan/Rons%20pistol/100_0697.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r127/Zhurdan/Rons%20pistol/100_0696.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r127/Zhurdan/Rons%20pistol/100_0698.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r127/Zhurdan/Rons%20pistol/scan0001.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r127/Zhurdan/Rons%20pistol/scan0003.jpg
MAY BE DISTURBING
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r127/Zhurdan/Rons%20pistol/scan0002.jpg
It kind of appears to be a DWM (Deutsche Waffenund Munitionsfabriken), but I cannot tell for certain.
Does the gun have a date on it (like 1915)?
Do all the serial numbers match on it (should be at least 3 spots).
C4
Forgot to check for a date, and he's not that great of a photographer. He got me these pics today.
Matching numbers on the frame, barrel and what I believe is the take down lever (two digits on that part. 51 can be seen in the 4th pic)
I sent this link to the German gun Guru (Vickers) and he confirmed DWM.
He also provided this link for history on the weapon: http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com/dwmmenu.htm
Having helped someone sell one of these, I can tell you that certain models are worth more than others. For instance, if this is an Artillary or Navy version, it will be worth more (barrel length typically defines these models). Also when it was made will drive the cost. If it was made DURING the war, they are typically worth more as well.
C4
Thank you very much for the info!!
One thing that will also help determine value is if there were any accessories with the weapon that your friend may have. Especially if they are matched to the weapon.
I believe the leather holster is matching as well. I'll ask him tonight when I see him.
BushmasterFanBoy
01-13-11, 15:25
Both of my Lugers are WWI guns, dated 1915 and 1917. One is a regular pistol, the other is a moderately rusty artillery model. On each of them the date is on the receiver, right up on the chamber area, but from what I can tell, this is mostly a feature of WWI guns. Hopefully with some research you can give us a rough figure of the date, it'd be pretty cool to know.
Guns like that, especially family heirlooms, are some of the most interesting and tangible pieces of history. I'd encourage him to hold onto it and keep passing it down if he can. If that's not an option, buy it from him and give it a good home, or at the very least, hold onto it for him until someone in his family wants it.
Wow, would I like to have that. I dont understand why someone would want to part with it, Good luck in your hopes of acquisition Zhurdan
There is a Blue Book of Gun Values that you can purchase that will give you an idea of value. The Luger looks to be in about 85 - 90% condition if that is the original finish. They will have a range of the various serial numbers that will help you determine the age of the weapon if you can't find a date on it. May also help you determine which model it is. Sure would be an interesting journey to find out more about the history of the weapon.
The whole reason that I'm getting information on it is in the hopes of actually acquiring it. His sons have many of the other "artifacts" that were passed down by their family, but he knows my fondness for weapons and knows it'll go to a good home. He offered to sell it to me for $600.00 but I told him no way in hell would I steal it from him for that much. He is my friend after all.
Personally, I'm more interested in it being taken care of than anything else. My grandfathers Garand and 1911 were supposed to be mine, but before he was even starting to drop temperature, my druggie uncles cleaned out everything of monetary value before we'd even heard of his death.
Anyone read German? What is the pamphlet that is pictured?
*EDIT* Translating via iGoogle Translate*
Groke Deutsche Kunstausstellung 1939 = Groke German Art Exhibition 1939
im Haus der Deutch Kunit zu Munchen = to Munich in the House of Deutch Kunit
16. Juli bis 15. Oktober 1939 = 16 July 15? October 1939
Veranstaltet vom = Organized by
Haus der Deutchen Kunft Neuer Glaspalast= House of Deutche coming New Glass Palace (???)
Anstalt des des offentsichen Rechts in Munchen= Institute of offentsichen law in Munich (???)
Also found this... http://thecensureofdemocracy.150m.com/art5.htm
The second picture of the gun shows GERMANY below the serial number. This usually means it was rebuilt after WWI and exported to the US. Consequently it is probably worth less to a collector than it would be if in original military condition.
Lugers are highly collectible. How much a pistol is worth depends on variant and condition. Holsters add value especially if they happen to be a rare variant. Capture papers add value if he has those.
Do not rely on a Blue Book. Lugers have far too many variations for the Blue Book to cover. The good Luger reference books have lots of pictures so you can compare what you have with what you see. The best books can cost well over $100. If you look, you will see Jan C. Still's books on Lugers are fairly expensive. Even Kenyon's book is $70 or so and it too has a lot of pictures.
These are a couple of good sites that the collectors frequent.
http://www.lugerforum.com/
http://luger.gunboards.com/
From the pictures, it looks like your friend has a Luger made by DWM that was originally intended for the commercial market. That is not to say it did not end up in police or military hands as the war progressed. Some of the commercial production got pressed into military use. I'd have to know more about how it got to his family and even then buy the gun not the story.
One caveat- The toggle with DWM's mark by itself is not necessarily definitive proof of who manufactured the gun. It is likely DWM but after a certain point, (I do not remember the year) Mauser got parts from DWM and assembled Luger pistols with DWM parts. My bet is that it is a DWM pistol but it could have been assembled by Mauser from DWM parts. There is nothing wrong with that. Like I said, there are a lot of variations with Lugers. Luger pistols were made by multiple companies. If you really get into it, you will be amazed at all the different versions.
The second picture of the gun shows GERMANY below the serial number. This usually means it was rebuilt after WWI and exported to the US. Consequently it is probably worth less to a collector than it would be if in original military condition.
Interesting. Would that lend you to believe that the story passed down to him from his grandfather may not be quite as accurate as one would think? His grandfather said he'd taken it off a German during the war.
Or did a soldier bringing back a weapon have to have it marked for importation?
I'd probably end up keeping that to myself as to not tarnish any stories passed down to the family. (dilemma)
Off topic of Luger:
The book in Zhurdan's pictures are of a Catalog for a German art gallery correct? I am fascinated with anything related with WW2. Zhurdan good luck in your research.
-Jax
Off topic of Luger:
The book in Zhurdan's pictures are of a Catalog for a German art gallery correct? I am fascinated with anything related with WW2. Zhurdan good luck in your research.
-Jax
Check post #11 again. I added some info. It's not perfect, but Google Translate is pretty amazing!
Check post #11 again. I added some info. It's not perfect, but Google Translate is pretty amazing!
Cool! Thanks man!
-Jax
The second picture of the gun shows GERMANY below the serial number. This usually means it was rebuilt after WWI and exported to the US. Consequently it is probably worth less to a collector than it would be if in original military condition.
Interesting. Would that lend you to believe that the story passed down to him from his grandfather may not be quite as accurate as one would think? His grandfather said he'd taken it off a German during the war.
Or did a soldier bringing back a weapon have to have it marked for importation?
I'd probably end up keeping that to myself as to not tarnish any stories passed down to the family. (dilemma)
That's a Commercial Luger, not military.
Imported post WWI, pre WWII.
Is it in 9mm or is it in .30 Luger (7.65x21mm Parabellum)?
Returning GI's didn't have to mark their captured weapons with the country of origin. There are stories told all the time about stuff grandad or old uncle Fred brought back from Italy or the Battle of the Bulge. Some of it is true, some of it isn't......having been on the other side of the gun counter for years, you would hear all kinds of stuff.
Bottom line though, that's a commercial gun, not military issue.
.30 Luger is less desirable but they imported a bunch of them. Most all of them were imported by Stoeger.
One of the largest dealers of collectable Lugers......
http://www.simpsonltd.com/index.php?osCsid=aaf63c6fc6a15edc8c9f3114aaf33cf5
Army Chief
01-13-11, 19:52
Not our usual fare, but a good topic nonetheless. I've got an S/42 with a known provenance (back to the recently-deceased Wehrmacht officer that carried it) that I should probably attempt to put a value on at some point.
AC
BTW, it's not "Groke", it's "Grosse" or "Groβe", which means "Great" or "Greater". The WWII German concept of "GroβeDeutschland" or "Greater Germany" referred to the various neighboring countries that they annexed, such as the Sudetenland and bits of Poland, Austria, etc.
Cool Luger. I've always kind of wanted one, but haven't been willing to fork over the dough for it.
BTW, it's not "Groke", it's "Grosse" or "Groβe", which means "Great" or "Greater". The WWII German concept of "GroβeDeutschland" or "Greater Germany" referred to the various neighboring countries that they annexed, such as the Sudetenland and bits of Poland, Austria, etc.
Between you and Templar my work was done before I even got here.
Thank you all for the information. I talked with Ron last night about the importation part of the equation. He kind of balked at the fact being his grandfather had told him the story time and time again. But with the information provided here and on some of the linked pages, I think he came to the realization that sometimes old people tell stories better than Hollywood. He's not going to sell it now, which is a good thing other than I won't be able to acquire it.
As far as the translation, I didn't even know what some of the letters/symbols were, let alone what they were supposed to mean. Google translate is my only link to the German language. Thanks for the heads up.
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