View Full Version : First 1911 suggestions?
Im looking to buy a nice 1911 in a few weeks, thanks to old uncle sam giving me back a few dollars i gave him. I dont really know too much about them. My budget is around 1200-1300 and I have looked at a Kimber Raptor II for 1200 and a used Colt Lightweight Goverment for 800. I really like the checkered front strap on the Kimber, so i guess it would be nice if the pistol could have that and front cocking serrations. Any Suggestions on great 1911s. Thanks
Well, in your price range if you go used yu should be able to fins some nice Springfield TRP's, and probably a Les Baer or two. Keep those on your list as well.
An Springfield MC Operator would be a good choice as well.
VooDoo6Actual
01-14-11, 10:31
SA MC Operator
I have a SA Operator with work on it though and I would take that thing with me anywhere in the world, that's how much I've shot it and how reliable it is.
With that said though, I had it tuned for reliability etc etc...
I have an older Kimber Tactical which I love but I don't like Kimber's latest quality control. I would go with a Springfield Operator in your price range.
I'd go with one of these
SA MC Operator / TRP
Colt Rail Gun / XSE
Used Baer Thunder Ranch Special
Thanks for all the great suggestions guys, so whats up with Kimber?
With that amount of cash, you certainly have a lot of options...way more than I had (which is why I'm rocking an RIA). I have heard a lot of mixed opinions on Kimber as of late, but do not have any experience with them myself.
Thanks for all the great suggestions guys, so whats up with Kimber?
Personally, I've go 2 Kimbers and they've been great. Had 2 others before that I've sold off and upgraded in to what I have now.
If youre looking for a 5", I've got one- a Kimber Desert Warrior hat I've been very happy with. I carry a 4" Pro TLE thats had some custom work on it. That Warrior/Desert Warrior from Kimber I'd good because it's a series 70 pistol. The Warriors run about $1000 or so on the used market (around $1200 new I believe), so its in your price range. I'd say go used because once you fire it once, they're all used.... :D But seriously if you but oe for around a grand, then you'd have money left over to run a bunch of ammo through it to check function and also get comfortable with it. Plus you can use those left over funds for any accessories.
Feel free to PM me if you have any specific questions.
In that price range you can get a basic Fusion. I have two and they are good pistols.
www.fusionfirearms.com
crusader377
01-14-11, 22:41
I'd go with one of these
SA MC Operator / TRP
Colt Rail Gun / XSE
Used Baer Thunder Ranch Special
+1 on all three of these
I'd go with one of these
SA MC Operator / TRP
Colt Rail Gun / XSE
Used Baer Thunder Ranch Special
I also second a used Baer. The only issue I have with them are the barrel bushings. The one I have is so tight that I need to use the barrel to knock it out the slide. I also have to tap it in with my bushing wrench to get it back in. Otherwise very reliable and accurate.
I had good and bad luck with Colt. I have a Special Combat that is just as accurate and reliable as the Baer. The trigger could be better but it's as good as it can get since it's a series 80. But that pistol is slightly outside of your price range. I also had a Gold Cup Trophy that I sent back twice again series 80. The first time was for a loose front sight. The second time when I had hammer follow and the gun going full auto.
I'm not trying to start a thread war but I don't like the new Kimber II series. If possible, try to get a series one Kimber and then replace all the MIM parts with proper steel parts.
I again recommend the Fusion pistol.
I just picked up a Springfield Armory Range Officer off of gunbroker for $725 and it is in my humble opinion, one of the best values out there in a 1911. The fit and finish are nothing short of stellar. A friend of mine works in QC at STI and agrees that the gun is put together very well. Tight slide to frame fit, precise barrel lock up. For competition I wanted a lighter trigger but for anything else, it'll do just nicely right out of the box. Hope this helps.
I just picked up a Springfield Armory Range Officer off of gunbroker for $725 and it is in my humble opinion, one of the best values out there in a 1911. The fit and finish are nothing short of stellar. A friend of mine works in QC at STI and agrees that the gun is put together very well. Tight slide to frame fit, precise barrel lock up. For competition I wanted a lighter trigger but for anything else, it'll do just nicely right out of the box. Hope this helps.
I've been hearing great things about the new RO. Only drawback for me is the adjustable rear sight.
In your price range I would strongly recommend the Springfield TRP (tactical response trigger). It is a very well made gun and you could get one easy within your budget.
If you like used and are willing to shop around, a nice used Les Baer or Wilson might pop up at the upper end of your budget.
Im really liking the Springfield TRP, but i have been looking online and the cheapest one i have found so far is $1350, any idea where else to look?
Fried Chicken Blowout
01-15-11, 02:23
If you're current or retired LE, Mil or EMS you can get a nice deal on a S&W 1911. They are well worth their money and S&W will stand behind them with a lifetime warrantee.
I'd go with one of these
SA MC Operator / TRP
Colt Rail Gun / XSE
Used Baer Thunder Ranch Special
S&W are nice,but I'd steer clear of the kimber.
S&W are nice,but I'd steer clear of the kimber.
Ditto here. I have a couple of S&W's.. love em. I have one of the 4" scad frames, what a gun, lite, easy carry, shoots flawless, tac driver, can't think of a better gun for my purposes. Their 5" guns are knock out too.. not sure if they are mil-spec though.. :) but any of them will easily fit into your budget and leave you room for accessories.. check out the SW web site... http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Category4_750001_750051_757754_-1_757752_757751_image
Pricing will be on the higher end at their store, probably save a few bucks anywhere else.. hope this helps,
I think the TRP offers a lot of pistol for the money, but recommend picking one up and holding it before buying. Personally I find the TRP front strap checkering sharp and uncomfortable.
A few months back I found a great deal on a new Springfield Armory PX9109L parkerized 'Loaded' with a 'NM' serial number indicating that it was fit and assembled in the US. From a reliability standpoint the pistol has been excellent, feeding HPs and FMJ without issue. Not all was perfect - the rear sight had an issue - but Springfield's lifetime warranty took care of that. From a value standpoint, I couldn't be happier. SA stands behind their product. The 'Loaded' models can vary in fit and quality though, and I'd carefully inspect before choosing one.
I owned a Smith and Wesson 1911 when they first came out, and kick myself for selling it. It was accurate and reliable, and Smith's warranty and service are excellent. Were I looking at a current production S&W 1911s, I'd seriously consider the new Titanium Firing Pin (http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_764501_-1_757754_757752_757751_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y#) model, which does away with the questionable Schwartz safety found in the other S&W 1911s.
Hilton Yam is considered one of the foremost 1911 authorities - if you haven't, you might want to read his article on Choosing a 1911 for Duty Use (http://www.10-8performance.com/1911_Duty_Use.html) over at 10-8.
I also second a used Baer. The only issue I have with them are the barrel bushings. The one I have is so tight that I need to use the barrel to knock it out the slide. I also have to tap it in with my bushing wrench to get it back in. Otherwise very reliable and accurate.
I had good and bad luck with Colt. I have a Special Combat that is just as accurate and reliable as the Baer. The trigger could be better but it's as good as it can get since it's a series 80. But that pistol is slightly outside of your price range. I also had a Gold Cup Trophy that I sent back twice again series 80. The first time was for a loose front sight. The second time when I had hammer follow and the gun going full auto.
I'm not trying to start a thread war but I don't like the new Kimber II series. If possible, try to get a series one Kimber and then replace all the MIM parts with proper steel parts.
I again recommend the Fusion pistol.
Baers definitely are tight. In my TRS I could get the bushing out by hand but I'd just retract the slide about half an inch and it came right out. I did use a 50/50 mixture of white grease and CLP applied liberally to the bushing and barrel, that seemed to make a big difference.
MichJim6464
01-15-11, 10:35
SpringField LW Champion Operator, very nice shooting.
I have had mine for 3 years now, I picked it up for 800.
You also may want to take a look at STI.
www.stiguns.com
I'd go with one of these
SA MC Operator / TRP
Colt Rail Gun / XSE
Used Baer Thunder Ranch Special
Yup...:D
With that much cash you could pick up a used SA/colt and send it to a smith and have it you way. Something to think about. ;)
V/r
Uglyguns
Another option to consider is a Dan Wesson Valor, one of the newer models introduced in 2010 to present. Although it has been met with skepticism from a small group of people who view the price increase as outrageous(most of which seem to have never even held one) it offers a lot of value for the price.
Stainless steel model can be had for around $1400 or less. You get..
-Forged stainless frame and slide
-Heine Straight 8 night sights.
-Undercut trigger guard
- VZ Slim grips.
-25 LPI checkering on the front strap and the MSH.
-NO MIM parts.
-Tool steel fire control parts.
-Forged Greider slide stop.
-Greider Solid Alum. trigger.
-Ed Brown grip safety.
-Barstock thumb safety.
-Match barrel.
-Excellent fit and finish throughout with a tight slide to frame fit.
Here is an article from the previous Valor model Dan Wesson offered(same basic model as the 2010 Valor but the 2010 model has been upgraded in many ways)
http://www.handgunsmag.com/featured_handguns/HG_danwesson_200905/index2.html
The author was able to achieve with Hornady's 185 XTP load, five shot groups at 25 yards of .93", .925", .974" and the overall average with that load was 1.18"(not sure how many total groups were fired). The author was able to get an average 5 shot group of 1.57" with Hydra Shok's as well.
The one negative I can think of is that you need make sure you keep them well lubed on the rails because of the tight slide to frame fit with stainless rubbing on stainless. Not a real big issue since running heavy lube on a 1911 is a generally accepted as being a good idea anyway.
I'm not sure if you're a member of the high road but someone over there is selling a Springfield TRP Tactical for $825/OBO plus shipping.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=565244
+1 on Springfield range officer. Quality handgun that you can have custom work done to if you want. Wouldn't spend too much if I were you because the first one is never the right one...at least for me.
If you stumble on a Baer Thunder Ranch for the right price, you can really do a lot with it. Mine has the Dawson Precision rail on it (allows me to mount an X300), polymer coating, new grips, and it still shoots well beyond my ability.
The same can be done with other guns - a cheap Colt XSE, or Springfield Loaded Parkerized, or even getting an STI through Dawson Precision themselves. They'd require more work to make them truly reliable, but total package cost would wind up right around the same.
There are some smiths who can do incredible things starting with a very basic pistol.
The Dumb Gun Collector
01-19-11, 22:29
Get one of the newer XSE or rail guns. They now come with a rational beavertail, and are always going to be Colts. Basically, you won't have to do anything to an XSE. Maybe get a front night sight if you are so inclined.
+1 on Springfield range officer. Quality handgun that you can have custom work done to if you want. Wouldn't spend too much if I were you because the first one is never the right one...at least for me.
Absolutely...except with wives...at least for me.
TheSurvivalist
01-20-11, 15:12
Colt XSE or SA Operator. Both are great guns. I would go with the Colt, but I am a little biased.
Saying that, I would feel just fine if I had a SA Operator instead of a Colt.
I have a SA Operator with a full length rail, and it has been a great weapon. I have carried it daily for a few years. Not to mention that it has seen a few thousand rounds without fail.
Very happy with my Range Officer! Use it for bowling pins..very accurate! Good deal for the money!
Read the "Sticky" written by Hilton Yam on the 10-8 forum
Add my $.02 I suppose.
In terms of 1911s, as has already been said, the first one is never the right one. Your best bet is to look for one of the Colt's or Springfield's mentioned, used perhaps, and then send them off to a smith to get them worked. Another option is to find a used SERIES 1 Kimber (SERIES 1, I cannot stress that enough!).
H
David Thomas
11-30-11, 13:08
Im looking to buy a nice 1911 in a few weeks, thanks to old uncle sam giving me back a few dollars i gave him. I dont really know too much about them. My budget is around 1200-1300 and I have looked at a Kimber Raptor II for 1200 and a used Colt Lightweight Goverment for 800. I really like the checkered front strap on the Kimber, so i guess it would be nice if the pistol could have that and front cocking serrations. Any Suggestions on great 1911s. Thanks
There are a ton of training opportunities in your part of the country. Take some classes and shoot some fellow students' guns to find out what you like in a 1911.
Army Chief
11-30-11, 13:42
If it were my money to spend, I would be investing in a Colt Rail Gun or Series 70. Wouldn't even give the others a second look, unless someone made me an offer I couldn't refuse on a used Wilson CQB.
AC
Colt's MK IV/Series 70 Government Model. Buy it original; keep it original.
"I rode with (it). . . I got no complaints." :)
http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/File:ColtMkIVSeries70.jpg
Edit: Noticed that this is almost a year old, ex post facto. I'm sure you long ago bought your 1911. Whatever you chose, enjoy!
If it were my money to spend, I would be investing in a Colt Rail Gun or Series 70. Wouldn't even give the others a second look, unless someone made me an offer I couldn't refuse on a used Wilson CQB.
AC
Any particular reason why other than just preference.
Any particular reason why other than just preference.
I'm not AC, but I did recommend a Series 70. Firstly, it's a Colt which (like it or not) does mean it will hold value better than others. It's made in the U.S., is forged steel, generally follows the original TDP. I've personally witnessed fewer reliability issues with base-model Colts than other makes. Fit and finish are generally better than other weapons in the same price range.
Plus, every pistolsmith out there will work on Colts.
Army Chief
12-05-11, 06:44
Any particular reason why other than just preference.
Preference admittedly plays a role, but it reaches far deeper than that. Aside from the fact that Colt's is the original 1911, etc., etc. the reality is that their quality has never been better. New machinery and tooling (finally) has them turning out the best frames and slides that they have ever made. The metallurgy is right. The lines of the guns are right. Their internals have always been the best available in a production gun. Sure, they still have a few sharp edges, but on balance, you aren't going to find a better-built basic 1911. You can get more bells and whistles, of course, but just recognize that most production guns are being built to a price point, and if you add more features, you're likely taking quality (or quality control) out of the gun somewhere else -- which is what we've seen destroy Kimber's reputation.
A box stock Colt will shoot surprisingly well, will be backed-up by the factory, will hold its value, and will deliver pride-of-ownership that no other 1911 can match. Perhaps more to the point, it will provide the ideal platform upon which to customize later. I'm not saying that the gun isn't going to be ready to go "as is," but every 1911 owner sooner or later is going to at least consider sending a base gun to a favored pistolsmith to be transformed into something decidedly more personal. There isn't a 1911 made that is more suitable as a full-house custom candidate than a Hartford original.
When looking at the 1911 market, what you find is a crowded field with many excellent contenders. If you're looking for a best-grade shooter that will never need to have another thing done to it, buy a Wilson CQB. If you want a solid 1911 that will perform well from Day One, but which will also have the potential to grow with you as your tastes and needs change over time, buy a Colt. You can spend your money elsewhere and get a decent gun for the here-and-now, but if you care to take a longer term view on all of this, there is simply no way you're going to beat Colt at its own game. They do, after all, have a 100-year head start. =]
AC
Preference admittedly plays a role, but it reaches far deeper than that. Aside from the fact that Colt's is the original 1911, etc., etc. the reality is that their quality has never been better. New machinery and tooling (finally) has them turning out the best frames and slides that they have ever made. The metallurgy is right. The lines of the guns are right. Their internals have always been the best available in a production gun. Sure, they still have a few sharp edges, but on balance, you aren't going to find a better-built basic 1911. You can get more bells and whistles, of course, but just recognize that most production guns are being built to a price point, and if you add more features, you're likely taking quality (or quality control) out of the gun somewhere else -- which is what we've seen destroy Kimber's reputation.
A box stock Colt will shoot surprisingly well, will be backed-up by the factory, will hold its value, and will deliver pride-of-ownership that no other 1911 can match. Perhaps more to the point, it will provide the ideal platform upon which to customize later. I'm not saying that the gun isn't going to be ready to go "as is," but every 1911 owner sooner or later is going to at least consider sending a base gun to a favored pistolsmith to be transformed into something decidedly more personal. There isn't a 1911 made that is more suitable as a full-house custom candidate than a Hartford original.
When looking at the 1911 market, what you find is a crowded field with many excellent contenders. If you're looking for a best-grade shooter that will never need to have another thing done to it, buy a Wilson CQB. If you want a solid 1911 that will perform well from Day One, but which will also have the potential to grow with you as your tastes and needs change over time, buy a Colt. You can spend your money elsewhere and get a decent gun for the here-and-now, but if you care to take a longer term view on all of this, there is simply no way you're going to beat Colt at its own game. They do, after all, have a 100-year head start. =]
AC
Thank you. I appreciate the explanation. For pistol, I shoot mainly Glock now and once in a while Sig. I keep toying with the idea of buying a 1911 rail gun and the TRP is/was very high on my list as I've put a few hundred rounds though one and liked the way it handled.
Wilson Combat CQB rail and Springfield Professional Rail were both guns I looked at but are quite honestly out of my price range.
I'll do some more research on the Colt Rail gun. Thanks again.
This is a really nice option, try finding bad reviews, few and far between when it comes to S&W 1911's..
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_785501_-1_757754_757752_757751_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y
I built up a 1911 using a Caspian frame and slide. Might be a bit ambitious for a first 1911, but a rally good way to learn how they work.
varoadking
12-08-11, 20:26
Preference admittedly plays a role, but it reaches far deeper than that. Aside from the fact that Colt's is the original 1911, etc., etc. the reality is that their quality has never been better. New machinery and tooling (finally) has them turning out the best frames and slides that they have ever made. The metallurgy is right. The lines of the guns are right. Their internals have always been the best available in a production gun. Sure, they still have a few sharp edges, but on balance, you aren't going to find a better-built basic 1911. You can get more bells and whistles, of course, but just recognize that most production guns are being built to a price point, and if you add more features, you're likely taking quality (or quality control) out of the gun somewhere else -- which is what we've seen destroy Kimber's reputation.
A box stock Colt will shoot surprisingly well, will be backed-up by the factory, will hold its value, and will deliver pride-of-ownership that no other 1911 can match. Perhaps more to the point, it will provide the ideal platform upon which to customize later. I'm not saying that the gun isn't going to be ready to go "as is," but every 1911 owner sooner or later is going to at least consider sending a base gun to a favored pistolsmith to be transformed into something decidedly more personal. There isn't a 1911 made that is more suitable as a full-house custom candidate than a Hartford original.
When looking at the 1911 market, what you find is a crowded field with many excellent contenders. If you're looking for a best-grade shooter that will never need to have another thing done to it, buy a Wilson CQB. If you want a solid 1911 that will perform well from Day One, but which will also have the potential to grow with you as your tastes and needs change over time, buy a Colt. You can spend your money elsewhere and get a decent gun for the here-and-now, but if you care to take a longer term view on all of this, there is simply no way you're going to beat Colt at its own game. They do, after all, have a 100-year head start. =]
AC
Very well put...
I have been considering a 1911 lately, while I would really like a Colt rail gun It's out of my range at the moment. I have read a few good reviews on the STI Spartan. Does anyone have any hands one time with one?
I have been considering a 1911 lately, while I would really like a Colt rail gun It's out of my range at the moment. I have read a few good reviews on the STI Spartan. Does anyone have any hands one time with one?
If you keep an eye out, you might find a deal on one. I got this very slightly used one at a local shop for $880.47 out the door. That's a lot of value for the money!
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s157/Glocktogo/DSC_1128.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s157/Glocktogo/DSC_1124.jpg
Here's a link to my actual SW rail gun, it's a model 1911PD. I picked it up lightly used from my local gun store for $650 plus tax... :smile:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=71459&goto=newpost
Here's my rail gun
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg16/JCottonjr/Guns/1911pd.jpg
For that amount of money, see if you can snatch up a Dan Wesson... you wont regret it. Otherwise, Kimber would be my pick, they are fantastic pistols, no matter what the naysayers will tell you. Ive owned two and had no issues through thousands of rounds. Thw Raptor is actually going to be my next one most likely.
I had a Kimber that was kind of rough like the parts were made in the third world. A friend of mind has one that jammed until going to a good smith.
Avoid any Colt made after about 1990. Utter junk. There's a reason Kimber exists.
Avoid any Colt made after about 1990. Utter junk. There's a reason Kimber exists.
You're funny, guy.
I worked for a large Kimber dealer for almost 2 years and they were absolute shit. I saw stuff you would not believe. Only ever had one Colt come back. The only guns Kimber ever made that were consistently worth a rat's ass were the Series I guns.
Sig 1911 TACOPS, or an Dan Wesson.
texshooter
12-17-11, 03:06
If you stumble on a Baer Thunder Ranch for the right price, you can really do a lot with it. Mine has the Dawson Precision rail on it (allows me to mount an X300), polymer coating, new grips, and it still shoots well beyond my ability.
The same can be done with other guns - a cheap Colt XSE, or Springfield Loaded Parkerized, or even getting an STI through Dawson Precision themselves. They'd require more work to make them truly reliable, but total package cost would wind up right around the same.
There are some smiths who can do incredible things starting with a very basic pistol.
FYI. Dawson precision stopped producing the rails.
I really like my les Baer UTC. But for a railed 1911 I have to say that I love my trp operator.
http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee370/texshooter/DSC_0047.jpg
I use it with a tlr-1s in a Raven Concealment holster. It's OWB holster and a big setup, but its very easy to conceal. Especially in the winter with a jacket.
texshooter
12-17-11, 03:08
Avoid any Colt made after about 1990. Utter junk. There's a reason Kimber exists.
Hmmm. I'd take any series 70 colt over any Kimber.
Avoid any Colt made after about 1990. Utter junk. There's a reason Kimber exists.
You are behind the times. Colt's quality has come way up (and some of their stuff in the 80's wasn't great).
Gary1911A1
12-17-11, 06:03
I wouldn't have a current Kimber either. Between the firing pin safety and poor parts it's one of the biggest rip offs in 1911s'. Colt or Springfield, full size, carbon steel, would be the only choice in an entry 1911.
Army Chief
12-17-11, 07:11
I have been considering a 1911 lately, while I would really like a Colt rail gun It's out of my range at the moment. I have read a few good reviews on the STI Spartan. Does anyone have any hands one time with one?
I've recently had a full-house custom gun built up on an STI Trojan, and while the jury is still out on long-term performance, in terms of feature set and quality, this isn't a bad point of entry into the 1911 world. Keep in mind that we're talking about their traditional single-stack 1911, and not the company's better-known double-stack 2011 series.
STI's recoil reduction system should be replaced with a conventional guide rod and spring, and you may want to upgrade a few other things here and there, but the bones of these guns are solid, and barrel quality is excellent. On that note, the primary difference between the STI and most other 1911s is that STI uses a fully-supported, ramped barrel that improves the feed characteristics of the gun with a wider variety of ammunition loads. Ramped barrels are nothing new in the 1911, of course, but they are unusual in .45 ACP guns.
Do I prefer STI over Colt in an entry-level gun? No. Can STI produce a decent single-stack with considerable potential? Yes. The problem you run into here is that a few hundred dollars can make a world of difference in terms of what you're able to afford, and there are so many lightly-used semi-custom guns out there that it can often be tempting to go that route if you're looking in the $1,500 to $2,000 range.
AC
Army Chief
12-17-11, 08:26
Avoid any Colt made after about 1990. Utter junk. There's a reason Kimber exists.
There were indeed some curious examples of the 1911/1991 coming out of Hartford in the late 80s and early 90s, but it's a far reach to label them "utter junk." Some models carried less appeal as base gun candidates because of the way that the factory integrated certain upgrades like grip safeties and sights. The Series 80 safety system was unpopular with purists. Production was spotty, and the guns were often hard to get. Even within the same model line, it was admittedly hard to predict which combination of parts the gun was likely to ship with. The usual Colt idiocyncracies with respect to the lines of the gun were often in evidence. The company was consistently "on the ropes," and at odds with the union.
Many dealers looked at all of this -- coupled with the fact that their wholesalers rarely had the guns -- and just wrote Colt off. It was far easier to point the customer to an in-stock Kimber with a number of desireable upgrades for the same money than it was to recommend a Colt that they didn't have, didn't know when they would get, and had no idea what it was going to look like when it arrived. As we all know, this feature-rich/entry-level pricing model led to very great success at Kimber.
It is also what killed them.
Granted, Kimber is still a strong market competitor in terms of overall sales, but the quality of their guns is such that they can no longer be recommended for any serious applications. Suspect parts quality and poor quality control have consigned them to irrelevance for the most part; meanwhile, Colt has almost completely turned things around. They have updated their configurations, invested in more modern tooling, and put considerable emphasis upon making sure that they are getting the guns right. Factor in contemporary metallurgy, and you end up with the previous observation that the current production Colts are the best 1911s the company has ever made. I would concede that it makes sense to look closely at any 20-something Colt just to make sure you know exactly what you're getting; that said, I certainly wouldn't dismiss them out of hand.
As for Kimber, the easiest way to respond to this would be to say that, if you're the kind of shooter who is comfortable with a Bushmaster or DPMS AR-15, then you've probably nothing to fear from a Kimber 1911. If your needs/preferences track more along the lines of professional-grade, or you simply have a different concept of value than the typical gun buyer, then Kimber isn't likely to earn a place on your list of serious contenders.
AC
wilson1911
12-19-11, 19:44
I would say get a colt. If you do not like the platform, you would be able to sell it and recoup most of your hard earned dollars out of any gun.
Most people who buy their first 1911 try and go a different cheaper route. Welcome to Kimber and the slew of others. Thats the cry twice method.
I do not have any exp with any of the low tier 1911's, but that's only because I bought a Wilson Combat 1911. Lady luck was on my side when Barry was running for election and I happen to have sold my boat for a profit:sarcastic:.
So I do know where you are coming from. In the sense of purchasing your first. I was set on a Kimber, then I made the mistake of picking a few wilson's.
My next pistol wil be a Colt rail. Primary reason is to leave in the vehicle and ccw. Secondly its a good price with minimal things needed done for personal preference. these guns are a work of art(1911). I forgot what magazine I bought this month, but there is an article on Colt and their 1911's. Great read !!!
I am not going to tell you a Wilson is the only gun to have, they are pricey. Although it eats anything 100% of the time.
Buy a Colt or Springfield, then use that as a base to learn from. These guns are machined, not stamped, except for the junkers.
If you want to make a real comparison, go feel a Wilson. Then go pick up a Kimber. Save the one you really want for last, either Colt or Springfield. You will be able to tell a difference between them all.
Carress and fondle them all very well. ie rack the slide(do not send the slide home on a empty chamber), pull trigger, flick safety, and load a mag. The difference is night and day.
Lastly, go to a range and shoot someone elses and see what they have to say. If you lived near DFW Texas you could shoot mine for free all ya wanted. I reload. Indoor ranges are good also, those renters they have on the wall will be dirty and unkept, perfect for testing. Lots cheaper to see before you take the plunge.
After shooting a wilson for a few years and doing USPA matches I am long past all the hype of a name. Colt represents a GOOD choice for a first gun.
Buy(price range) what you can afford.
Then save for a few more months.
BUY your new toy and have fun with it.
go to 1911forum.com and research there also.
I will welcome you to the family of 1911 owners no matter what you purchase.
I'm surprised on one mention of the S&W E- Series. The Hilton Yam review (and others) made me think this may be the best deal going in production 1911's right now.
mike boufford
12-20-11, 05:58
I have the Raptor Pro and have no regrets with this purchase at all. It shoots great, has superb accuracy and just flat runs all of the ammo I put through it.
Remember, there isn't a manufacturer out there who doesn't have it's share of problems. Kimber sells every weapon they make and have a backorder waist deep. How does this continue to happen if they are making Chinese equivalent junk? The answer is that it's not happening.
I'm surprised on one mention of the S&W E- Series. The Hilton Yam review (and others) made me think this may be the best deal going in production 1911's right now.
They're new, hard to get, and relatively expensive.
They're new, hard to get, and relatively expensive.
I saw 2 at a gun show this weekend. The stainless non rail was $800. I've seen the railed gun for $1050 on gunbroker.
I have the Raptor Pro and have no regrets with this purchase at all. It shoots great, has superb accuracy and just flat runs all of the ammo I put through it.
Remember, there isn't a manufacturer out there who doesn't have it's share of problems. Kimber sells every weapon they make and have a backorder waist deep. How does this continue to happen if they are making Chinese equivalent junk? The answer is that it's not happening.
It continues to happen because most customers aren't informed enough to realize that a malfunction or two per box (or even, occasionally, per magazine) is not normal. Most of the people that bought Kimbers from us bought them because they heard from a friend of a friend of a friend that Kimbers were "good". We had problems with so many guns that it became SOP to function test them before putting them in the display case. Things that I remember seeing on brand new in the box guns were hammer follow, bad sear engagement, bad extractor tension, chatter marks on the inside of the gun, broken hammer hooks, out of spec feed ramps and chambers with burrs. Granted we did move quite a few guns but we never had problems but for once in a blue moon with Colt and Springfield.
mike boufford
12-22-11, 17:22
It continues to happen because most customers aren't informed enough to realize that a malfunction or two per box (or even, occasionally, per magazine) is not normal. Most of the people that bought Kimbers from us bought them because they heard from a friend of a friend of a friend that Kimbers were "good". We had problems with so many guns that it became SOP to function test them before putting them in the display case. Things that I remember seeing on brand new in the box guns were hammer follow, bad sear engagement, bad extractor tension, chatter marks on the inside of the gun, broken hammer hooks, out of spec feed ramps and chambers with burrs. Granted we did move quite a few guns but we never had problems but for once in a blue moon with Colt and Springfield.
With the speed that news travels, one would expect that Kimber would have gone the way of the dodo long ago based on this reported level of quality. Now the question in my mind is if Kimber was as bad as you report, then why did the dealer continue selling them?
Springfield TRP, Operator etc. Springfield makes a damn fine 1911 for the money. A Baer would be a very nice choice as well if it's in your budget.
With the speed that news travels, one would expect that Kimber would have gone the way of the dodo long ago based on this reported level of quality. Now the question in my mind is if Kimber was as bad as you report, then why did the dealer continue selling them?
Taurus Judges are still flying off the shelves...
I have friends with series 1 Kmbers, and those are great pistols, but the SIS and similar newer ones just aren't any better in my experience than the Wesson and STI offerings in that price range, and unless one model happens to match what you want, the Springfield and Colt offerings make more sense.
With the speed that news travels, one would expect that Kimber would have gone the way of the dodo long ago based on this reported level of quality. Now the question in my mind is if Kimber was as bad as you report, then why did the dealer continue selling them?
You obviously have never worked in the firearms industry. :laugh:
We sold them because people wanted to buy them. And made a shitload of money doing it. I sure as hell wouldn't push people towards them if they asked for a carry piece or something to keep around the house "just in case" but if they want one who am I to tell them not to buy it? If someone is too lazy to research what they are buying that is not my problem. If they ask my opinion of what's good for carry, that's one thing, but I'm not going to talk them out of it if they straight up asked for one.
If a company came out with a pink dildo that shot 9mm and people wanted to buy it, gun dealers would stock it. Money talks. We sold a shit ton of Taurus Judges too and they sucked just as much and possibly more.
Just for fun,
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/02/robert-farago/why-did-the-n-c-division-of-alcohol-law-enforcement-buy-150-kimber-1911s/
TurretGunner
12-27-11, 10:39
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/21_82/products_id/62348
I would hit the Dan Wesson Heritage. Going to have a better fit/finish/parts than anything else in that price range. For a little more you could get a Valor which has a few more upgrades but not worth the price differental to me.
With the speed that news travels, one would expect that Kimber would have gone the way of the dodo long ago based on this reported level of quality. Now the question in my mind is if Kimber was as bad as you report, then why did the dealer continue selling them?
First, you make the following assumptions:
1. That people read gun forums.
2. That the info posted on gun forums is ALWAYS accurate.
3. That the info written in gun mags is accurate and honest.
4. That people actually shoot their guns.
5. That people actually know anything about guns.
6. That dealers know anything about guns.
7. That dealers are ethical and will stop stocking a gun if they find out it sucks.
The consumer is based into two groups. They are called "twenty percenters" and "eighty percenters." The first group shoots their guns, attends training classes and does research (both first hand and second hand) before buying anything. The second group buys what looks "cool" and or what they can afford. They typically shoot 100rds a month (and think that is a lot) and have guns to try and impress others. They know very little about what makes a quality gun a quality gun.
C4
Army Chief
12-27-11, 12:52
Kimbers can actually be very nice 1911s with some parts changes and remedial attention on the bench. Same goes for Bushmasters in the AR world.
The question is, why would you buy either when there are service-ready counterparts available for very similar money? The only answer I've really come across so far is simple ignorance. That isn't anything to be ashamed of, unless the shooter has been around long enough to know better, been exposed to the truth, and just doesn't care.
AC
mike boufford
12-27-11, 19:29
Kimbers can actually be very nice 1911s with some parts changes and remedial attention on the bench. Same goes for Bushmasters in the AR world.
The question is, why would you buy either when there are service-ready counterparts available for very similar money? The only answer I've really come across so far is simple ignorance. That isn't anything to be ashamed of, unless the shooter has been around long enough to know better, been exposed to the truth, and just doesn't care.
AC
I came to m4carbine.net mostly to investigate M4 brands after someone had sent an older copy of Rob S's spreadsheet to me. The spreadsheet provided a lot of facts which allowed me to make an intelligent purchase. This is how I wound up purchasing an LMT carbine and a Colt CAR A3 (here's hoping that this Colt turns out better than the last Colt 1911 I owned).
The above is the second time I have read a reference comparing Kimber to Bushmaster so perhaps it's time for someone with more experience than I to put a 1911 spreadsheet together which lists the specs, etc... so the same level of information that we have for the AR/M4 platform can be put readily to hand for the 1911. Perhaps this person could also convince the manufacturers to provide their quality data as well?!?!?!?!? It would be an interesting piece of research for someone to take on.
In my simple world, anything less is conjecture, and hearsay. A lot of people make decisions based on conjecture and hearsay read on forum posts. I am not being a smartass with this either. I'm sincerely interested in gaining some real fact filled knowledge.
Army Chief
12-27-11, 20:33
What you propose is somewhat more difficult with 1911s than it is with ARs because of the manner in which the two weapons are built. An AR which is assembled properly with specification components is generally going to perform well; conversely, a 1911 requires fairly extensive hand-fitting, and components are generally finished slightly oversized (which is intentional) to allow the pistolsmith to integrate them into the gun individually. The key to getting it right with an AR is paying attention to assembly standards. The key to getting it right with a 1911 is a lot of bench time in competent hands.
Excepting the troubled Schwartz safety system, Kimber's primary shortcomings these days come down to two factors: inferior quality MIM components, and hit-or-miss QC. I do not subscribe to the theory that all MIM is inferior, but Kimber's track record here reveals that they have done a bit too much cost-cutting, and parts breakage is a frequent complaint. We've already discussed the problems associated with their QC, in that some guns runs fairly well, and others are problematic right out of the box. The thing is, there is a lot going on inside of a 1911 that you can't necessarily see, and a gun that seems to run right can still have all kinds of timing and fitment issues that will affect accuracy and longevity down the road. You won't see this show up on a "chart," but if you speak with resellers and pistolsmiths, you'll hear all kinds of horror stories about Kimber, and it isn't because they happen to dislike the company, because ill-informed consumers (which is most of them, regardless of the gun in question) are still only-too-happy to buy them.
AC
What you propose is somewhat more difficult with 1911s than it is with ARs because of the manner in which the two weapons are built. An AR which is assembled properly with specification components is generally going to perform well; conversely, a 1911 requires fairly extensive hand-fitting, and components are generally finished slightly oversized (which is intentional) to allow the pistolsmith to integrate them into the gun individually. The key to getting it right with an AR is paying attention to assembly standards. The key to getting it right with a 1911 is a lot of bench time in competent hands.
Excepting the troubled Schwartz safety system, Kimber's primary shortcomings these days come down to two factors: inferior quality MIM components, and hit-or-miss QC. I do not subscribe to the theory that all MIM is inferior, but Kimber's track record here reveals that they have done a bit too much cost-cutting, and parts breakage is a frequent complaint. We've already discussed the problems associated with their QC, in that some guns runs fairly well, and others are problematic right out of the box. The thing is, there is a lot going on inside of a 1911 that you can't necessarily see, and a gun that seems to run right can still have all kinds of timing and fitment issues that will affect accuracy and longevity down the road. You won't see this show up on a "chart," but if you speak with resellers and pistolsmiths, you'll hear all kinds of horror stories about Kimber, and it isn't because they happen to dislike the company, because ill-informed consumers (which is most of them, regardless of the gun in question) are still only-too-happy to buy them.
AC
Chief, I agree with what you have to say, and thank you for your service.
I do take exception to one thing: parts in the ar work the way they do because on most quality manufacturer guns, they conform to the milspec standards for the m16/m4 platform, with everything made off of one blueprint.
If the 1911 were made to this standard, and one spec was set as "the" spec, then parts could be made to be more interchangeable and require less fitting, if any. Further if the 1911 were made to a spec not quite as tight and slim as it is (and by that I mean short triggers with little reset/overtravel, sears and hammers with finely balanced engagement, etc) which makes the gun so elegantly smooth to shoot but difficult to make without hand fitting, it would be far simpler to make a 1911 that runs with little issue and little need for extensive hand work.
As it is, unlike the m4, few people kept the mil spec prints of the 1911, or hold to original "standards" for exact hole position, etc. Every manufacturer varies to some degree, leaving us with a wide range of specs that force aftermarket parts to be made oversized and hand fit.
Add to that a pencient for shooters to get an impression of the 1911 that it is meant to be tight with a super solid lockup and ultralight trigger, etc., which has become myth from the competition world (and bitching from folks shooting worn out badly out of spec service guns), this takes out some of the tolerance that would make the 1911 far more reliable and forgiving.
You take a machine, tune it to tight clockwork perfection depending on exact timing and little clearance or room for error, you make a machine prone to failure. Open up your tolerances a bit, you increase reliability.
Just my two cents.
Kimbers can actually be very nice 1911s with some parts changes and remedial attention on the bench. Same goes for Bushmasters in the AR world.
The question is, why would you buy either when there are service-ready counterparts available for very similar money? The only answer I've really come across so far is simple ignorance. That isn't anything to be ashamed of, unless the shooter has been around long enough to know better, been exposed to the truth, and just doesn't care.
AC
I got bit by the Kimber bug, twice. An early Custom Classic that wouldn't run correctly and an early Kimber Elite Carry that was simply one of the best looking out of the box 1911's I've ever seen (couldn't resist). Both required labor intensive hours of fitting, tuning and polishing. After the Elite Carry sheared the lug on the magazine catch lock (one of the MIM parts), I decided I'd had enough. I've also seen Springers with 25# extractor tension out of the box, and even one that the entire slide forward of the dust cover sheared off and went flying downrange. I've seen numerous other 1911 brands choke regularly in competition, to include several high end brands.
Working as a Chief Safety Officer for numerous big IDPA matches, to include the S&W Indoor Nationals, Carolina Cup, several IDPA Nationals and AMD for the most recent IDPA World Shoot, I have a front row seat to what works and what doesn't. It's not if a certain brand of 1911 will choke, but when and whether you're savvy enough on the platform to prevent it. When most other pistol designs choke or break, you swap a part out and carry on. When a 1911 does it, you may be faced with hand fitting a part or even a trip to the gunsmith. It's not that I don't recommend the 1911, but if you're going to rely on one that you be a decent gun plumber as well. You really need to understand how the platform works and why, magazine issues, tuning tips & tricks, extractor tension, etc. Double all that advice if you're going to carry a widebody 1911, because they're extra finicky.
When I'm shooting a 1911 in competition, I carry an extra tuned extractor, extra recoil spring or two, several extra mags that have been tested for fit & function, quality mag catch lock, extra guide rod (only on a competition 1911), etc. After each match, I'm not just cleaning it but doing an actual PM. I make sure to check all the critical parts such as the bushing, barrel link, slide stop, extractor, firing pin, etc. I check the thumb safety & grip safety for correct function, along with the sear engagement for any issues. I compare the recoil spring against a new one for wear and the guide rod & frame for peening or cracks. I also check the magazines for feed lip issues and give them a good overall inspection while cleaning (usually Wilson 47D's).
After everything is cleaned and lubed (Mobil 1 synthetic), I do a final function test with dummy ammo for any feeding or timing issues before loading it up with defense ammo. Anything that appears flawed in the PM gets relegated to either the "training only" box or the round file. Nothing gets used at a major event unless it's been previously tested.
Anal? Obviously. Number of malfunctions at major matches? Zero. The results speak for themselves. :)
The above is the second time I have read a reference comparing Kimber to Bushmaster so perhaps it's time for someone with more experience than I to put a 1911 spreadsheet together which lists the specs, etc... so the same level of information that we have for the AR/M4 platform can be put readily to hand for the 1911. Perhaps this person could also convince the manufacturers to provide their quality data as well?!?!?!?!? It would be an interesting piece of research for someone to take on.
The problem is that the 1911 has been around for a century, literally. The platform has been modified, tuned, tweaked, redesigned and outright bastardized to the point that it only resembles the faithful rendition in general appearance. Could you publish an original TDP? Sure, but nearly every 1911 would fail to meet the spec. Besides, no one wants a loose, rattly, combat reliable 1911 that shoots 4"+ groups at 25yds. If they want that, they'll get the latest plastic fantastic. When they buy a 1911, they want a gun that rides on ball bearings made of silk that will shoot 2" groups at 25yds and look dead sexy while doing it. A gun that meets those criteria will be more costly, and yes, finicky, particularly one that will do so on command for many, many rounds. If you're going to chase that Grail, you need to do your research and properly prep for the task at hand. :D
I think the OP should update us on what he/she ended up getting. With Pics of Course!
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