Training Question: SA/DA vs DAO (LEM/DAK)

[Skyyr]

One of my goals for 2011 is taking time to regularly practice and become more proficient with my handguns. That being said, I know consistency is key in virtually all practice and training. My question is, how much of a difference, or more/less effective, does a DAO-type trigger have? I'm running an H&K, so the LEM is an option for my pistol.

I see two different schools of thought with this and agree that both have merit.

School of thought #1:
A consistent trigger pull is better than a non-consistent one, as it allows the user to focus on sight-alignment, not on distracting trigger pulls that can differ; therefore, DAO-type triggers are better.

School of thought #2:
SA/DA triggers are inherent to the design of auto-loading pistols and teach good trigger control. DAO-type triggers in semi-automatics are not necessarily "natural" in their design and are proprietary, resulting in every DAO-type pistol being different in characteristics (creating a problem when transitioning to any other pistol with a different trigger).

I'd like to standardize my trigger options early on and not have to worry about potentially re-learning the pistol later, so I'm trying to decide between SA/DA and DAO/LEM. Opinions?

[Entropy]

Don't over think it too much. The important part of the equation is just to practice with which ever system you use. DA/SA, DAO, SA.......all of these trigger systems have demostrated that they can get the job done well in trained hands. My preference is DA/SA.

[John_Wayne777]

School of thought #1:
A consistent trigger pull is better than a non-consistent one, as it allows the user to focus on sight-alignment, not on distracting trigger pulls that can differ; therefore, DAO-type triggers are better.


A consistent trigger pull does streamline training a bit because the user has only one trigger pull to master.



School of thought #2:
SA/DA triggers are inherent to the design of auto-loading pistols and teach good trigger control.


I don't think they "teach" good trigger control. DA/SA is a reality for a certain percentage of the handguns out there. DA/SA guns can be run very well and a user who trains himself/herself properly will be able to use one very effectively. Ernie Langdon won championships with a DA/SA gun. I cut my teeth on a DA/SA gun and I can still use them reasonably well.

The only snag there is that everybody isn't Ernie Langdon or even little ol' me. Some people really do struggle with the transition between DA and SA. Training will overcome that. The question becomes, then, how much training the individual is willing/able to do if they are the one in a dozen who finds it to be a real obstacle.



DAO-type triggers in semi-automatics are not necessarily "natural" in their design and are proprietary, resulting in every DAO-type pistol being different in characteristics (creating a problem when transitioning to any other pistol with a different trigger).


They do vary from weapon to weapon...but so do lots of other things. Would I be able to run a DAK Sig P229 as efficiently as I run my LEM equipped P30 if I picked one up tomorrow? No. It would take some time to acclimate to the different trigger, but it would take some time to acclimate to the Sig's different controls as well. Having used the LEM trigger would not sabotage or have any deleterious impact on my ability to learn to run the DAK.

Anytime someone picks up a new weapon, especially if they are very proficient with a different one, they will find that there is a period of adjustment where they learn the new gun. When someone sucks generally they suck no matter what pistol they pick up. When someone has dedicated time and effort into learning how to run their gun as efficiently as possible, they will find that at least temporarily they will not be at their peak with the new weapon. That's going to be a universal truth regardless of the trigger system or type of weapon.



I'd like to standardize my trigger options early on and not have to worry about potentially re-learning the pistol later, so I'm trying to decide between SA/DA and DAO/LEM. Opinions?

Pick a handgun you can afford, you can afford to support, and you can afford to feed. If you're a relatively inexperienced shooter and you can get a consistent trigger with all other factors being taken into consideration, it's not a bad idea to do so. If you already have a DA/SA P30, learn to run it. Conversions can be done on some P30's and if you find that you absolutely cannot progress past the DA/SA transition then doing so may be in your interest.

Otherwise I would advise training with what you've got. Generally speaking, running what you have is going to be a more cost effective option than trying to get something else in the hopes that the purchase makes you better.

[montrala]

I use LEM trigger both for dynamic and target shooting. On dynamic I just quickly go trough first stage (that drives hammer back), then squeeze until bang. Repeat as necessary, like in SA (short reset - LEM is not true DAO). For precision shooting I go first stage, then pause, sights, breath, sqeeze gently, bang, wait, release trigger.

Some results (P30L with 6lbs LEM - light springs except heavy trigger return spring, Geco FMJ 124gr.

17 yard (15m), precise aiming, slow pace, 10 rounds:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v286/montrala/Range%20reports/IMAG0096.jpg

17 yard (15m), fast pace, but each shot aimed, 15 rounds (full mag):

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v286/montrala/Range%20reports/IMAG0094.jpg

2 strings of 10 shots, 28 yards (25m), precise shooting (but aiming black-on-black is hard for 25m), pause between each shot:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v286/montrala/Range%20reports/IMAG0097.jpg

What I'm trying to show is that with LEM trigger there is not hard to get SA trigger accuracy (we talk "combat SA" not tricked out 2lbs 1911 trigger) with DAO trigger simplicity and safety of operation.

I also shoot custom made STI 2011 in IPSC competitions. I have very short and crisp 3lbs trigger (do not like accidental discharge DQ or hammer follow) on SV and Brazos Custom parts. I also shoot target Haemmerli SP-20 RRS .22lr with 1.5ls trigger. I have zero problems going between HKs with LEM, STI and Haemmerli.

[SIGguy229]

One of my goals for 2011 is taking time to regularly practice and become more proficient with my handguns. That being said, I know consistency is key in virtually all practice and training. My question is, how much of a difference, or more/less effective, does a DAO-type trigger have? I'm running an H&K, so the LEM is an option for my pistol.

I see two different schools of thought with this and agree that both have merit.

School of thought #1:
A consistent trigger pull is better than a non-consistent one, as it allows the user to focus on sight-alignment, not on distracting trigger pulls that can differ; therefore, DAO-type triggers are better.

School of thought #2:
SA/DA triggers are inherent to the design of auto-loading pistols and teach good trigger control. DAO-type triggers in semi-automatics are not necessarily "natural" in their design and are proprietary, resulting in every DAO-type pistol being different in characteristics (creating a problem when transitioning to any other pistol with a different trigger).

I'd like to standardize my trigger options early on and not have to worry about potentially re-learning the pistol later, so I'm trying to decide between SA/DA and DAO/LEM. Opinions?

I've transitioned easily between my SA/DA pistols and striker-fired pistols....how? Practice...Practice...Practice.

IMO, you're overthinking this alot....

[ralph]

I've transitioned easily between my SA/DA pistols and striker-fired pistols....how? Practice...Practice...Practice.

IMO, you're overthinking this alot....

If you don' have a LEM installed in your pistol, I suggest you try one first, They're not for everybody. However, I myself like the LEM,and I think it's easier to learn than a tradtional DA/SA pistol. That said, I have a"light" LEM in a P-2000, and like you, decided I should learn how to use it, Prior to this I've been shooting a M&P 9. Alot of dry fire practice,(with snap caps,of course) worked wonders, I'm finding out the P-2000 is a VERY accurate pistol, I've still got some work to do,as I still manage to pull some shots to the left, (trigger control, I know). But, I can see once you get this system mastered, the reward is excellant accuracy.I do agree though, you are overthinking this alot. Get some snap caps and start practicing, go to the range and see how you do, Be honest with yourself, (if you suck, you suck,) and dry fire practice some more, go back to the range and try again,I'm willing to bet you'll see some improvement,quickly..

[dsg2003gt]

i dont have a lot of time (or money) to train with so I pick all of my pistols based on certain similar themes:

1. SAO or DAO (LEM too)
2. 9mm or .45

I have never been able to master that 12lbs DAO first shot in SA/DA guns, and the shot that is most important (to me) is the first shot.

[Trvlngnrs]

I have never been able to master that 12lbs DAO first shot in SA/DA guns, and the shot that is most important (to me) is the first shot.

Agreed. I just sold my Sig P220 for this reason.

[rathos]

I have found that a single pull is much easier to master. I recently acquired a P30 LEM which I found extremely easy to pick up.

I became a decent shot with my P228, but I found I actually shot the double action pull much better then the single, because I did not want to reset the trigger each time I pulled it, so most of my dry fire practice was with the double action pull.

I have found that any action with one pull, whether it be DAK, LEM or striker fired is much easier to master. I prefer LEM to any of the other trigger styles I found it was the easiest to master.

[mike benedict]

DA/SA in my opinion is as dead as a Dodo in modern pistol design. While I can shoot a DA/SA pistol well It is much easier to train a person on a pistol with a consistent trigger pull.
I can't imagine why anyone these days would prefer a DA/SA pistol except maybe for nostalgia reasons.

[Bigun]

Agreed. I just sold my Sig P220 for this reason. If it was a later framed gun you could have traded trigger parts for the DAK group and never had to worry about that transition again. I wasnt sold on the DAK trigger untill recently, I had a 229 SAS DAK in .40 S&W and sold it then our department transitioned to the 229 DAK and I got to spend a lot more time with the system, now I love it and wish I hadnt sold that SAS. There is a lot to be said for a consistant smooth trigger pull and it really doesnt matter if it is SA or DAO as long as it's manageable. The transition from a heavy DA first shot to a lighter SA pull can be distracting especially under stress and if you choose to use one of these style weapons practice as much from the DA as you do from the SA if you want to make that first shot count.