View Full Version : Effective Range of 16"BBL .308?
NightFighter
08-26-07, 12:28
I was wondering if anyone knows the effective (ability to knock down a BG)range of a 16" bbl .308 rifle? I am trying to decide if I need one .308 rifle or an SBR and a .308 Rifle. :(
Depends on the ammo, the rifle and the shooter. I've got a 16" .308 benchrest rifle that will put five 168gr handloads into a 6" circle at 600yds when I do everything right...and I'm still learning. Put those rounds into a BG's head/COM and I'm sure he'll be out of the fight for a while.
As with any of these sorts of scenarios, shot placement is more important than caliber.
As you know, there is no magic bullet. It is really about shot placement. The 308 has its place, but not as a home defense weapon IMHO. It is better designed to be a battle rifle and not a CQB weapon.
So if your trying to decide on what to use for home defense, go with an AR chambered in 556.
C4
Quentin Tarantino style? :rolleyes:
It will probably poke holes in people out to 700yds or so...
NightFighter
08-26-07, 16:01
As you know, there is no magic bullet. It is really about shot placement. The 308 has its place, but not as a home defense weapon IMHO. It is better designed to be a battle rifle and not a CQB weapon.
So if your trying to decide on what to use for home defense, go with an AR chambered in 556.
C4
Thanks for your answer. That is what I was trying to decide. Also I was curious as to what my next weapon should be after a home defense weapon?
Also I was curious as to what my next weapon should be after a home defense weapon?
That's kinda like asking another man what shoes you should buy next. Everyone has different needs and one size does not fit all. Do you want a plinker? Varmint rifle? Big-game rifle? Compact pistol? Big bore revolver? Rimfire? Shotgun?
CarlosDJackal
09-03-07, 14:21
Thanks for your answer. That is what I was trying to decide. Also I was curious as to what my next weapon should be after a home defense weapon?
This should probably be based on:
- Your home situation (IE: family who lives at home, neighbors who live next door, etc.).
- What your home is made of (IE: doors, interior and exterior walls, etc).
- How your home is set-up (IE: interior space, hallway size, yard/property size, etc).
- What are the realistic threats that you may face (IE: drugged-up killers, burglars, etc.).
- What kind of a firearm can you effectively use (IE: what you are confortable with, what have you trained with, etc).
FWIW, in my home I have various handguns (.45s, .40s, 9mms, .357s, .38s, and .380s) as well as both 12 GA shotgun and an AR-15 for home defense!!
Robb Jensen
09-04-07, 06:55
I was wondering if anyone knows the effective (ability to knock down a BG)range of a 16" bbl .308 rifle? I am trying to decide if I need one .308 rifle or an SBR and a .308 Rifle. :(
Like I said in your other thread about SBRs, no rifle will 'knock down a BG' (unless it fires Mack trucks) otherwise it would also knock the shooter down.
simple physics = Newtons 3rd Law : for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction
Well I tend to beleive that a .50BMG with Mk211 Raufoss ammo will do enough damage to someone that they may as well have been knocked over ;)
My head hurts - as gotM4 says - shoulder fired weapons just dont impart enough energy. Hollywood aside most people just dont fall over and die when shot - Heck even a M18A1 Claymore is disturbingly unimpressive when used on people.
Well I tend to beleive that a .50BMG with Mk211 Raufoss ammo will do enough damage to someone that they may as well have been knocked over ;)
...
No kidding...have you seen a body ripped in half by one?
A .50 will knock someone over.
Actually, I've fired one rifle before that nearly knocked me over from the recoil. It was some extremely rare elephant rifle. I don't remember caliber.
I was wondering if anyone knows the effective (ability to knock down a BG)range of a 16" bbl .308 rifle? I am trying to decide if I need one .308 rifle or an SBR and a .308 Rifle. :(
16" and 18" barrels on hunting and tactical rifles have been harvesting game and addressing threats for quite some time. Load selection for the application becomes more critical with the shorter barrels, but they are quite serviceable.
Get an SBR AR-15 for it's handling qualities. Personally, I think 6.8SPC or 6.5Grendel in a 10.5" configuration is the sweet spot between 55gr 5.56 and larger stuff that way over penetrates.
The good Doc has some data about 155gr and 178gr 7.62x51mm ammo that will not over pen...
Here is a good one courtesty of DocGKR and Tactical Forums:
http://m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=401&stc=1&d=1196217163
With 155gr & 168gr TAP which are by far the best defense loads you should feel prety good to 400yrds with a 16" tube after that the bullets aren't likely to fragment as designed. Go to tacticalforums.com terminal effects forum and search before posting. Dr. Gary Roberts( DocGKR) is an expert in the field of ballistics.
sigmundsauer
12-01-07, 20:51
A better way to answer the question is to address the effective range of a 16" .308 at battlesight or field zero. Just because it can technically shoot 600 yards doesn't mean your carbine is set up to do so for utility work. I think a practical 16" .308 is a 200m gun. 250m on the high side.
Tim
A better way to answer the question is to address the effective range of a 16" .308 at battlesight or field zero. Just because it can technically shoot 600 yards doesn't mean your carbine is set up to do so for utility work. I think a practical 16" .308 is a 200m gun. 250m on the high side.
Tim
I must disagree with you on the 250m range. After all a 16" 5.56 AR has a 200m fragmentation effective range with MK262 MOD1. The TAP ammo for 308 will fragment at some fairly low velocities and will certainly be effective at ranges over 200m. I know what your saying and I agree a 200m shot would seem about right for a carbine. I'm just pointing out that if you had to engage at distances beyond those normally encountered this ammo would perform out to 400m. if you could deliver rounds on target. I'm really not sure if the original poster wanted to know about the weapons platform or ammo?:confused:
I think a practical 16" .308 is a 200m gun. 250m on the high side.
An 11" AR-15 is a 250m carbine.
sigmundsauer
12-03-07, 12:42
Without knowing the intent of the original poster, I personally don't want a rainbow trajectory in a carbine, despite if the ammunition is capable of fragmenting or simply poking holes. Clearly a .308 is not short on power, I am more concerned about probability of hit and precision. There is a certain threshold that each much determine for themselves. A bullet that must be pitched a half-foot or more above sightline to achieve longer range hits is not practical for me.
Tim
How badly does something need to be shot at extended intermediate distances??
A 16" .308 carbine is useful at most intermediate distances, if needed. Personal preference and configuration notwithstanding.
If I had a .308 16" carbine, I'd not hesitate to launch rounds at someone shooting at me, even at 400yds - 500yds.
Hell, I killed an antelope at 308yds using a 22" .308 Win and 150gr SST Light Mags. Zeroed at 200yds, the drop I had to compensate for was approximately 7.5". MV = 3000fps. An easy holdover at the top of the buck's back.
Consider this, the span between the bridge of a man's nose, and the center of his chest cavity is ~12-16". If you aimed at the bridge of his nose at 300yds, and you have 10" of drop, you should hit him just below the juncture of his neck and upper chest.
5.56 or 7.62 there will ruin his day for a good minute.
sigmundsauer
12-03-07, 19:30
shivan,
Your point is well taken. Although, being able to "hold-over" a target to effect a shot is not the same thing to me as "effective range." Can you reasonably predict a hit to effect a kill at 300m? Yes, maybe at your skill level. The shot you described would normally be considered beyond the capability of the average shooter, and would rely on optics. If I had the shot I would take it but in the knowledge that it is beyond the effective range of the gun, assuming irons.
A 200 yard zero is on the "high side" for a 16" .308 IMO but would make 250m shots relatively simple, IMO.
A 16" .308 is generally going to generate modest velocities of 2400-2700 fps. I think that puts it at a 250m battlesight at max. Just my criteria. No one else's.
As a comparison. An M4 graded at a max effective range of 550m is normally zero'ed for 300m with a trajectory that pitches M855 9-10" above bore line. That's pretty steep and sacrifices precision at mid-range targets regardless of iron or optic. I think it's pushing the limits at velocity of ~2800 fps.
Tim
:confused: Irons and Battlesight
Optic...
S&B Short Dot with the M118LR BDC for the 16" SR25 makes it a good 400m gun easy - and 600m if you have the time.
That's what I've been trying to say....:D
sigmundsauer
12-04-07, 20:13
:confused: Irons and Battlesight
Optic...
S&B Short Dot with the M118LR BDC for the 16" SR25 makes it a good 400m gun easy - and 600m if you have the time.
Iron....sights?
Battlesight.....zero?
Optical....sight?
Sheesh, are these foreign terms? I've lurked here long enough to know better....i think. :confused:
However, last time I checked "effective range" is a distinctly military term with a specific connotation. Are we trying to answer a question about what one CAN do with a carbine or what it's "effective range" is? Clearly the former, not that there is anything wrong with that.
BDCs and sophisticated optics can increase hit probability with many weapons, but now we are getting out of the scope (pardon the pun) of what a typical marksman and a typical carbine are intended and capable of doing for general field work. ...but yes a Short Dot can maximize the utility of any carbine, although a rather scarce piece of equipment inside and outside of the military.
Just my $.02
Cheers,
Tim
Really I would not know :rolleyes:
My point is that you are basis your term effective range based upon the "book Value" of a CCO or Iron BZO.
With an ACOG even which is relatively common for regular troops, any half baked idiot can now range (no offence to half baked idiots).
Engagement at distance is not black art - provided you can detect the target and see you rounds impact (hence why mag optics come into their own past 200m).
Effective Ranges are typically broken down for mil terms between area and pt. targets - to the point that you will get a point effective range @ X and the area effective range past that.
This takes a rough concept for commanders to base their engagements on.
I was going to say bylarge I've never met anyone that cannot engage a pt/ target out past the book value, but in interaction with other units one can see how low the bar can be.
However given a 16" 7.62mm gun is more an Urban DM setup I figured I'd based the Effective Range discussion based upon a fair shooter with a decent setup, and in that respect the iron and BSO issue is moot.
(no offence to half baked idiots).
......None taken:eek:
sigmundsauer
12-05-07, 12:06
Really I would not know :rolleyes:
My point is that you are basis your term effective range based upon the "book Value" of a CCO or Iron BZO.
With an ACOG even which is relatively common for regular troops, any half baked idiot can now range (no offence to half baked idiots).
Engagement at distance is not black art - provided you can detect the target and see you rounds impact (hence why mag optics come into their own past 200m).
Effective Ranges are typically broken down for mil terms between area and pt. targets - to the point that you will get a point effective range @ X and the area effective range past that.
This takes a rough concept for commanders to base their engagements on.
I was going to say bylarge I've never met anyone that cannot engage a pt/ target out past the book value, but in interaction with other units one can see how low the bar can be.
However given a 16" 7.62mm gun is more an Urban DM setup I figured I'd based the Effective Range discussion based upon a fair shooter with a decent setup, and in that respect the iron and BSO issue is moot.
KevinB,
I suppose we're turning this thread into something much more complicated than originally intended. I'm tracking with your reasoning, except that I would reemphasize that the military's definition (book value) of effective range of a weapon (point or area) is a combination of hit probability and penetration/energy on target to determine max range. This "effective range" is not a sliding scale based off of the marksman's (in)ability. If one can attain shots beyond the normal range of the weapon it is either above average skill or luck or both. It is only in recent years that common infantry have been equipped with better tools to increase hit probability at greater ranges. ACOGs, Short Dots and other glass are great tools, but we still haven't seen a material improvement in the actual marksmanship skills of our armed forces beyond CQB distances. But that's a whole 'nother discussion.
I agree with you, that I and most other marksmen socializing here at m4carbine.net are in all probability not the "average marksman" that the military factors into their "effective range." Most of us could reasonably attempt and achieve shots beyond 200m with a 16" .308 of known zero and power really isn't the issue at these intermediate ranges. Given that a 16" .308 is still not a standard issue military weapon, speculating on its "effective range" is really more a discussion about what can be done with the carbine more than what it was designed to do. Because Carlos Hathcock has made 1000+ yard shots with a .308 doesn't redefine the effective range of the weapon, it just means that he compensated for the weapon's inherent performance attributes and other conditions (did everything right).
Tim
I am not sure where this thread is going, but I sort of have the same question.
I would like to build a 16" .308 into sort of an urban DM gun. I was looking at doing a Saiga conversion or building up a FAL para with an 18" bbl.
My only expectation is to hit center of steel plate a 500 - 800m.
What will I lose in terms of velocity? What kind of bullet drop can I expect? Are there ballistic tables for 16" - 18" bbls? My thinking is that I would need to chrono the MV of my particular set up and then run the ballistic calculations.
As for optics, I have an old .308 ELCAN lying around. Not the best but I don't have to pay extra for it! Again, I think hitting minute of man is the best I am going to get.
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