View Full Version : No sh@!t assessment on 1-4x
I am in optics hell. I've been running RD's for 3gun and am considering making the switch to a 1-4x. How is the eye relief up close? Can you run with both eyes open? Is there distortion or clouding on the perimeter when using both eyes open, etc? This is the unknown for me. Long range is a given, but is it fast in CQB?
My price point puts me in the Vortex HS or Viper PST. What to do?
Don't know if this helps some bit, but found this:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=63781
Fried Chicken Blowout
01-16-11, 20:05
Yes there is distortion, it's like looking through a fish eye lens on 1x for my Nikon. It works, but it's not equal to a T1 for close up stuff. But you have to deal with that to get your 200 yard target to look like it's only 50 yards away. Chose your devil...
I don't think it's as fast, but I've never run it on a shot timer to compare the two.
Don't know if this helps some bit, but found this:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=63781
Damn. Army Chief nailed it! It's all about need and it's all on me. The compromise is pushing me towards the RDS, but there may be a 1-4x down the road. Thanks for this link. ;)
The Viper PST looks fantastic, however, if an aimpoint Micro or C3 fits your needs, I'd wait and try to borrow a variety of low powered variables to see if that's something that works for you.
I have a long winded review of the PST 1-4 in this forum. No fish eye. True 1x as far as I can tell and easy to run two eyes open at the low setting for me. I'm left eye dominate and actually have more problems in this regard with red dots.
For a game gun optic, it should rank very well and probably top of the class in the $500 price bucket. It has performed very well at distance so far as well.
See post #28:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=70816&page=3
I have been using low power variables for several years in 3 gun. I have a leupold mk 4 cqt 1-3, a burris 1-4, and a trijicon tr-24g 1-4. I like them all and choose between them depending on the match and what reticle I think will be best. I am as fast with these on 1 power as I am with an aimpoint. I shoot both eyes open all the time (even with big glass on precision rifles) so if there is distortion it is something you can train thru.
I have a long winded review of the PST 1-4 in this forum. No fish eye. True 1x as far as I can tell and easy to run two eyes open at the low setting for me. I'm left eye dominate and actually have more problems in this regard with red dots.
For a game gun optic, it should rank very well and probably top of the class in the $500 price bucket. It has performed very well at distance so far as well.
See post #28:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=70816&page=3
Nice write up. The follow-up comparison to the Micro is interesting. Was your comfort with the 1-4x over the RDS because you "normally" run powered scopes? You give me compelling reason to purchase one and compare for myself. What do you think about one of these riding on a 14.5 middy? What mount do you prefer?
What mount do you prefer?
ADM, LaRue and Bobro would all make good choices. If you shoot NTCH, one of the extended versions would be my choice. Shooting from further back on the stock, the standard ADM Recon, Larue SPR, or Bobro should be good. Better to have the more forward mounting option if in doubt (especially from prone). Eye box is huge with lots of eye relief.
Mine is in a Bobro extended and it seems to be working well. The ability to return to zero (after having it off the rifle) is as yet unknown to me. Windage "might" have been off a little the last time I had it on the long range. It was off the rifle before going out, but different environmental conditions could have accounted for that as well.
I have a NF 2.5-10x32 in a Larue Mount. No complaints at all. My only experience with ADM is with two Aimpoints. Less easy to remove, but they work great.
I ordered the PST (MOA) with a Larue QD mount. :eek: I've got two different optics on the way and still don't know which way to go. I'm going to try them both out and see which I'm most comfortable with. The shipping will cost me a bit, but I want to end up with the right scope!
Decisions, decisions...
jasonhgross
01-17-11, 16:59
Beware of the weight. If you are going from a T-1 to a 1-4x, you will be shocked at how the weight feels (about 21-25 ounces mounted where as the t1 w/ mount is 4.7 oz). For me this was a deal breaker, but for you it may not be an issue. Note, I actually tried the 1-4x (using a larue mount and TR24) and when I compared it to the T1 I was used to, it felt like a brick tied to my gun. If you are using an M4 or similar, the 1-4x wont feel thaaat much different I would suspect.
Sounds like a plan. Please report back after you get them going.
Yes, I am interested in hearing some more PST experiences as well. Thank you in advance.
The Vortex Viper arrived a couple days ago and the Larue QD mount showed up last night. I couldn't wait to mount this fine looking scope. I have no experience with powered optics, so I was a bit apprehensive about this purchase. I primarily use my AR for 3gun and multi purpose training. I've been fairly successful with long range with my Eo, but decided to test out a 1-4x. My concern is the close range, eye relief and fast target acquisition.
My first impression was that the Viper is a solid built piece of equipment. Just eyeing the scope, the clarity was amazing, the controls were smooth, elevation and windage knobs appear secure, with no concern of accidental movement.
The reticle took some getting used to, as a biased red dot guy. There was a similar feel from the Eo circle and dot pattern, with the Vipers broken circle, cross hair dot pattern and center dot. So I took comfort when/after illuminating the PST's reticle, aimed her into the shadows and easily acquired my target. I can only imagine that speed should NOT be compromised at CQB with the large circle that is the PST's most visible reticle. Also, eye relief was amazing. I had full view through the 30mm tube. Had no problem sighting with both eyes open. Didn't feel any affects of the scope having magnification (is that parallyx?). It is as close to my 1x red dot without being a red dot.
My only complaint is the illuminating intensity. After a few boneheaded attempts at installing the battery to get the thing to light up, I noticed the reticle didn't appear to "turn red" until 5(a low smoldering appearance). It didn't glow bright red until 6 and beyond that, the MOA dots continued to intensify up to 10. If that's normal, why have 1-5? I'd rather have less clicks and quicker intensity. When I want a red dot, I don't want to make 10 clicks. Cleverly, Vortex has an off switch between each setting. You can guess where mine is set? :p
The other obvious difference from a RD is the noticeable weight. I don't have scales, but with the Larue QD mount and a 1-4x scope, I'm guessing 2-3 pounds more on top. That's a big difference and will be noticeable at the end of an 8 hour carbine training day. My other concern is how it will operate when prone and side prone. Also, how rugged are the internals? Can it take a beating (not that I plan abuse) and hold zero?
My Micro has not arrived, so I'm still undecided. So far, my impressions of a 1-4x are positive. I will post another review as this unfolds.
Alaskapopo
01-21-11, 21:31
The Vortex Viper arrived a couple days ago and the Larue QD mount showed up last night. I couldn't wait to mount this fine looking scope. I have no experience with powered optics, so I was a bit apprehensive about this purchase. I primarily use my AR for 3gun and multi purpose training. I've been fairly successful with long range with my Eo, but decided to test out a 1-4x. My concern is the close range, eye relief and fast target acquisition.
My first impression was that the Viper is a solid built piece of equipment. Just eyeing the scope, the clarity was amazing, the controls were smooth, elevation and windage knobs appear secure, with no concern of accidental movement.
The reticle took some getting used to, as a biased red dot guy. There was a similar feel from the Eo circle and dot pattern, with the Vipers broken circle, cross hair dot pattern and center dot. So I took comfort when/after illuminating the PST's reticle, aimed her into the shadows and easily acquired my target. I can only imagine that speed should NOT be compromised at CQB with the large circle that is the PST's most visible reticle. Also, eye relief was amazing. I had full view through the 30mm tube. Had no problem sighting with both eyes open. Didn't feel any affects of the scope having magnification (is that parallyx?). It is as close to my 1x red dot without being a red dot.
My only complaint is the illuminating intensity. After a few boneheaded attempts at installing the battery to get the thing to light up, I noticed the reticle didn't appear to "turn red" until 5(a low smoldering appearance). It didn't glow bright red until 6 and beyond that, the MOA dots continued to intensify up to 10. If that's normal, why have 1-5? I'd rather have less clicks and quicker intensity. When I want a red dot, I don't want to make 10 clicks. Cleverly, Vortex has an off switch between each setting. You can guess where mine is set? :p
The other obvious difference from a RD is the noticeable weight. I don't have scales, but with the Larue QD mount and a 1-4x scope, I'm guessing 2-3 pounds more on top. That's a big difference and will be noticeable at the end of an 8 hour carbine training day. My other concern is how it will operate when prone and side prone. Also, how rugged are the internals? Can it take a beating (not that I plan abuse) and hold zero?
My Micro has not arrived, so I'm still undecided. So far, my impressions of a 1-4x are positive. I will post another review as this unfolds.
My Swarovski weighs 16 ounes and the mount problably weighs about 6 or so. So it smore like a pound and a half on the rifle.
Pat
My ML3 in an ADM mount weighs 12 ounces, so depending on the specific RD and mounts, the net-net on the PST could be either side of a pound.
I took my PST to the range. I fully mounted her, so I've pretty much decided to go with the 1-4x and leave the red dot behind. I clearly have a lot to learn about MOA because it took way to long to zero. Anyway, my impressions about this smooth, eye turning scope is what a solid piece of equipment for any 3gunner. once zeroed, I shot better groups then I've ever shot with my RD. Whether off a rest, prone or free hand, I shot tight groups at 50 and 100 yards. I was sold. :D
The one thing I did notice was the illumination didn't show up in the light. I had it on 10 power and the red was barely noticeable. Is that normal? I've got a 3Gun match tomorrow and will post my results. That's the rubber meeting the road for me!
AMMAC
Pretty much. In bright light it's visible, but not exactly glowing. Shows up better at CQB range on IPSC targets, but IMO the not illuminated black reticle is just as fast.
I shot mine in the local 3G today. The longest steel was at 330 Yds and the PST worked really well. I brain-farted the first run, then won the second. Steel was painted red, which made the black dot the better choice. It really stood out well including after most of the paint was shot off.
Yeah. Figured it out. The screw cap came loose some how. Tightened it down and it lit up like a Christmas tree. LOL. We'll see what happens tomorrow. Grata on your good runs.
:)
I've run a couple of 3-guns using the 1-4x Trijicon Accupoint scope, which I find much easier to use as a reflex sight than the ACOGs. It has very little of that "floating" sensation I tend to get from optics with variable magnification, and the eye relief is big enough that I can reflex with it very easily. Got talked into it by a buddy of mine who runs a gunshop and got me one for sub-$500. Seems to work very well, and I really like it.
Even in 1x mode, i can very easily hit out to 250m and be pretty accurate on steel.
Went to the local 3gun today to test run the Viper. I continue to be impressed. Bye bye red dots. The PST was as easy to use and acquire targets on ALL CQB targets as my RD. We had 8 shots at 225+ that those without powered optics never found the target. I was glad to have my Vortex. I let a co-competitor borrow my rifle throughout the day. He was considering a Night Force, Trijicon and Zwaro and after one run with the Viper, he was sold!
The one continuing nuisance is the battery screw cap. My buddy said the reticle light up and went off during one of his runs. I grabbed a screw driver and was able to put a half turn on it. Problem solved. I may need to apply some blue loctite if the problem persists.
My advice to anyone considering this scope, BUY IT!
:D
Sweet, thank you for the feedback. My buying finger feels very trigger happy.
I noted the battery cap in a couple of places in my "PST 1-4 In Hand" review. It wants to be screwed down tight - no issues since. I had a similar issue with a Comp ML2 during a FAL match once and had to finish the stage with the irons. (My FALs co-witness, so no biggie.)
No co-witness with the PST, but that's completely moot anyway. You cannot deploy the rear BUIS with a mounted scope in the way. The PST on the other hand, works just fine with no battery.
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