View Full Version : eye distance to iron sights and accuracy
Hello,
I have been having an issue zeroing my new Troy back up folding rear sight. I'm using the stock front sight and am doing it at 50 yards. (IBZ). I have the gun on a UTG bipod as well, so it would seem that user error wouldn't be as evident. My question is, I know you are supposed to zero using the smaller aperture, which I did. How close up does my eye need to be to the peep hole? Very close? far? I was having issues zeroing it and even getting the bullets on paper, so I'm wondering if eye - sight distance matters? Any help appreciated.
pilotguyo540
01-18-11, 19:06
If you are new to aperture sights, I would suggest moving away from the sights until your brain can instinctively center the front post. The idea being the rear aperture is smaller so your margin of error is smaller too. I also recommend shooting the smallest dot you can plainly see at that distance. aim small, miss small.
If you still have issues, check back and we can help. With the info you provided (not samn much) I would be suspicious about your firing hand, flinch, and/or optic mount.
If you still have issues, check back and we can help. With the info you provided (not samn much) I would be suspicious about your firing hand, flinch, and/or optic mount.
I agree.
How much experience do you have actually shooting a rifle, any rifle? This information may help us with understanding your problem.
I'm still a noob. Maybe it is me, I'm definitely not suggesting it isn't. However can one still suck even while benching and using a bipod at 50 yards? I know with handguns the flinching and trigger control thing is extra important, but I thought that with rifles, especially benched it isn't as much an issue?
This may be the case, because my first 20 or so rounds were on target, only to the left which made me start clicking the rear sight for adjustments.
thanks again.
pilotguyo540
01-18-11, 19:41
Sounds like flinch
Go to the 25 yard range and relax. Don't predict when the shot is going to go off. Let it surprise you. If you are not comfortable or feeling anxious, just set the gun down, take a breather and start over when you feel relaxed. Squeeze very slowly and try to maintain sight picture. Focus on the target. Your front sight should be a little blurry, and your rear sight just a fuzzy ring for your sub conscience to deal with. Oh yeah, loosen up the death grip with your hands.
Don't worry about being cool. Learn the fundamentals. I won't think you are a wuss at the 25 yard line with an AR. When you get the hang of it, stretch your legs and go out farther.
Consistency is the key.
I know with handguns the flinching and trigger control thing is extra important, but I thought that with rifles, especially benched it isn't as much an issue?
You thought wrong Grasshopper, especially since you are probably shooting your AR-15 at a much farther distance than you typically fired your handguns. If you're having troubling determining were to place your head in relationship to the rear sight, simply follow the old addage of NTCH; nose to the charging handle.
...
thanks. I'm curious tho, even with a stable bipod, you can still flinch and pull your shot? seems to me the gun would be pretty stable no?
Appalachian
01-18-11, 19:48
As all above plus put the tip of your nose consistently on the charging handle, it will help maintain a consistent sight alignment/ sight pic.
Go to the 25 yard range and relax. Don't predict when the shot is going to go off. Let it surprise you.
Since I suck and can't even consistently zero the rifle at 50 yards, would it be wise to zero it at my indoor 25 yard range first?
Cagemonkey
01-18-11, 19:51
A good eye relief shooting irons when using the small aperture is nose to charging handle. I always found the closer the better, since your eye will see through the rear sight aperture and center the front sight post.
As all above plus put the tip of your nose consistently on the charging handle, it will help maintain a consistent sight alignment/ sight pic.
interesting, I wasn't doing that. My nose is close, but not actually touching the handle. I just tried it. Seems that when I'm doing this, the hole is bigger and I can see the full sight picture. Will the recoil slam it in my nose? LOL
Yes, A close zero is better than no zero. Indoors or out does not matter. The closer you are to target the less your mistakes will show. All above is good info and you should use it.
A flinch or jerk on any gun will result in a misplaced shot and result in terrible groups. Shoot at 25 until you can get a nice group, then stretch out to 50 and 100 yds.
ejewels,
As a new shooter, you have to apply the fundamentals consistently in order to shoot well, even with your rifle on a bench or bipod. You've got to do four things consistently well: maintain a steady position, maintain proper sight alignment, apply a steady trigger squeeze, and control your breathing. Shooting from a bench and/or bipod doesn't guarantee you a steady position (or any of the other fundamentals, for that matter); instead, it just impacts what a steady position is, relative to your situation.
If you are maintaining the same point of aim every time, and cannot get a consistent shot group, then you probably need to concern yourself first and foremost with grouping satisfactorily prior to trying to zero your rifle. In other words, you want to dry-fire and then live-fire until you can achieve a consistent, tight shot group (what the size of that group is, and how many rounds depends very much on what you're shooting in terms of equipment and ammo). Once you've done that (and only once you've checked that block), you can then progress to moving the sights to move the point of impact to where your point of aim is.
It will take me some time to access it, but if you'd like I'll post a set of dry-fire drills that we teach to new shooters to train them on these fundamentals. After working on those (with some coaching, if possible, from an experienced instructor), then you'll see much quicker progress.
VR,
BH
pilotguyo540
01-18-11, 20:07
interesting, I wasn't doing that. My nose is close, but not actually touching the handle. I just tried it. Seems that when I'm doing this, the hole is bigger and I can see the full sight picture. Will the recoil slam it in my nose? LOL
No, but you may get an unpleasant puff of gas to the eye.
The nose to charging handle is good for consistency while standing, but you have a larger margin of error. You can mind **** your sight position to death if you focus on the front sight instead of the target.
Look at it this way, nose to CH your aperture is (just a wild guess) 150 MOA, but further back you are at 25 MOA field of view. It will be easier to center your front post and your target in the farther aperture.
After a while your eye will know what to do and you can go nose to charging handle and make good shots at longer distances. Even with the large hole. Don't be in a hurry.
I suggest getting on some bags for zeroing. Bipods require a bit more attention to technique. Depending on how you are handling the weapon, you can have bipod bounce, sort of like shooting off a hard surface. You should also be supporting the rear of the buttstock with a gloved fist or small bag...just for zeroing, so you know the bullet is going to go where the sights are aligned. Then adjustments can be made for elevation or windage.
I use nose to charging handle for red dot and irons use.
Thanks a lot guys for the help. I would love some dry fire drills if you're offering!
It will take me some time to access it, but if you'd like I'll post a set of dry-fire drills that we teach to new shooters to train them on these fundamentals. After working on those (with some coaching, if possible, from an experienced instructor), then you'll see much quicker progress.
VR,
BH
I'm not the OP, but I would appreciate it if you posted the drills.
I suggest getting on some bags for zeroing. Bipods require a bit more attention to technique. Depending on how you are handling the weapon, you can have bipod bounce, sort of like shooting off a hard surface. You should also be supporting the rear of the buttstock with a gloved fist or small bag...just for zeroing, so you know the bullet is going to go where the sights are aligned. Then adjustments can be made for elevation or windage.
I use nose to charging handle for red dot and irons use.
You know, i wondered this myself. Everytime the gun recoiled, it seemed to jolt the whole gun and bipod off the wood table I was on. Do you rest the barrel on the bags or the handguard when doing this?
Do you rest the barrel on the bags or the handguard when doing this?
I'm no expert, but something about the "barrel harmonics" shifting the POI when resting on the barrel. Or did I read that wrong?
ejewels,
I'm going to lay out two things for you: a sort of a checklist of things that you ought to focus on right now in terms of mastering the fundamentals, and a set of drills that will help you to start to ingrain those fundamentals. Along the way, I'll try to share some of the "why" behind certain checklist items, as well as behind parts of the drills.
Right up front, let me tell you two limitations to all of this. First, I'm not going to be able to adequately address natural point of aim, which is going to affect how you shoot. I just don't know how to incorporate that into what I'm laying out for you. Second, I'll tell you that this checklist, and this set of drills, will only get you so far without an experienced, trained instructor or coach--someone who not only "gets it," but who understands how to identify it and how to explain it well.
That said, here goes...
Shooter's checklist. Every time you start to shoot, go through this mental checklist (with time, you'll ingrain these things and won't have to think through them deliberately), paying attention to steady position, sight alignment, steady breathing, and trigger squeeze:
1. Confirm your steady position (start from you and work out):
o Weapon firmly planted in the pocket of your shoulder;
o Consistent and solid cheek-weld;
o Tip of the nose as close to the charging handle as possible;
o Firing hand high on and firmly wrapped around the pistol grip--the v between thumb and trigger finger all the way up in the pistol grip-buttstock notch (leave it loose, and--just like with a pistol--you'll have a tendency to milk the grip and pull shots off-target);
o Elbows firmly planted, on the inside plane if possible;
o Legs & body flat to the ground (when firing prone--you want to have as much of you as flat on the ground as possible);
o Non-firing hand loosely grasping the rifle.
2. Check your aim (start from the front sight and work back in):
o Focus on the front sight post (though not to the exclusion of all else);
o Good & consistent eye relief (here's when NTCH is good for a new shooter like you--it helps you get one consistent sight picture, which is critical when grouping & zeroing);
o Eye not shuttering.
3. Check your breathing (you'll pay less attention to this the more experienced you become, but it's critical for a new shooter):
o Steady, controlled rise and fall of the chest;
o Proper breath hold (after the exhale);
o If you're not ready, start again, breath another cycle, and apply your breath-hold.
4. Smooth trigger squeeze:
o Smooth, steady squeeze of the trigger all the way through (no double-clutching, etc.);
o No jerking;
o Smooth and complete reset of the trigger before starting again (you're learning to apply the fundamentals, not learning CQB yet).
For our new shooters, we have those checklist items on a 5 x 8 card, and another shooter beside them as a coach, using the checklist. If you can, have someone do the same for you.
On the subject of steady position (the first fundamental), you ought to think of it in terms of a stable position having two aspects: the relationship between you and the weapon (hence the focus on the weapon tight in your shoulder, a good cheek-weld, etc.), and the relationship between you and the ground (hence the focus on getting as much of you flat on the ground as possible).
Now, once you understand and can start to apply the fundamentals, you can start the drill(s). It goes without saying that, at home, you're going to use an empty magazine, or a magazine with dummy rounds; in your case, always physically separate the live rounds from your weapon (i.e., in another room entirely) before you start. Then, you're going to do the following tasks, in sequence:
1. Assume the prone firing position (work mentally through the first two checklist items above).
2. Fire in the prone position (work through the last two checklist items above). The weapon will not fire.
3. Apply immediate action to your rifle (SPORTS) in the prone position (This might seem redundant, and you'll be tempted to omit this, but if you do it you'll handle almost any malfunction smoothly and efficiently; if you don't, you'll immediately identify yourself as that guy, like a monkey trying to wind a digital watch. Do the whole SPORTS now; you can abbreviate it as appropriate--say to Tap-Rack-Bang--later as you become more experienced).
4. Resume a good prone firing position (work mentally through the first two checklist items again).
That's going to count as one repetition. After one repetition, get up before starting the next, so you have to work through getting into the same stable position and applying the fundamentals time and time again. I recommend that, initially, you do at least 25 repetitions per day if your schedule allows (more is better), until you start to groove things in. We put these drill tasks on the other side of our 5 x 8 card as a reference. Once you can do them consistently dry-firing, you're ready to go to the range and start with grouping & zeroing.
I hope that helps; let me know if it isn't clear, or if it raises any questions
VR,
BH
Excellent. Thank you so much for helping me out, as I need it. My range trips have just been frustrating and this looks like the perfect solution to getting me to be a better shooter. I'm printing this out now!
.
I've seen a lot of shooter use a peep sight wrong. You're supposed to just look through the rear peep, not try to center anything up...just look through it. Your eye will automatically get itself to a position where it gathers the most light, which will be the center. Trust your eye.
Then, just put your FS post on what your shooting.
Cheek (or jaw) weld is important but it depends on your face. Experiment to see what is right for you, practice going back to that sweet spot. If you need a jaw weld, you should wait until you get out of the 3rd grade. :)
Don't over think it and relax...it's all fun.
FWIW...Let someone else shoot to see if by some chance your gun is messing up.
.
. Do you rest the barrel on the bags or the handguard when doing this?
Rest the handguard on the bags, not the barrel.
Interesting thread.
Two months ago I used a BCM Dissipator in a Randy Cain carbine class and shot irons only for all three days. Even with the longer sight radius of the Dissipator (or perhaps because of it?) and even with the small aperture of the Troy rear sight (which I understand is slightly larger than the A2 small aperture) I found myself lengthening the stock and moving my head back when shooting at distance from prone.
Normal head/stock position for me with RDS
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/me%20shooting/10333_135282863103_505973103_247-1.jpg
modified stock/head position with Dissipator/irons
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/me%20shooting/photo-13.jpg
yeah, i noticed the nose to CH is harder for me. I'm in a ban state and my stock is pinned, 1 click in using a MOE butt stock. I have to really stretch my neck to get my nose up there, and it doesn't feel that natural.
You could always move the rear BUIS forward a notch or two. I wish I had thought to do what with mine.
I would have gotten my ass kicked if I'd ever joined the Army. I cannot get myself to place my nose to the charging handle of an AR when firing. It's a mental thing, I know but I do not want anything recoiling into my face, especially at that angle and to my nose! I don't care for long arms with combs that have much drop for the same reason.
Pilotguy, for precision shooting with ironsights, it's recommended the shooter focus on the front sight and let the target go blurry. It's easier to precisely position a sharply focused front sight on a blurry target than it is to position a blurry front sight on a sharply focused target. That's how Service Rifle Masters are able to keep their shots on a spot on the target they cannot even see- the X-ring.
ejewels, distance from your eye to the rear sight will not matter (unless it's so far away you cannot see through it) in getting your carbine sighted in. I like the aperture to be close as practical as it makes it easier for me to look through it. However, the aperture sight of the 03 Springfield is forward of the front of the receiver and still used to good effect.
I'll second what others have said- learn the fundementals- Trigger control, Breath control, Form, Sight Picture and Follow through. Get yourself a good coach as well. Few things are as satisfying as learning to be a rifleman
Thanks. What I don't get is how my first 20 or so rounds seemed to be a decent group. Then it just got worse after shooting more and more and after only MINOR windage adjustments on my BUIS.
Sight could be loose, could have changed how weapon was being held which introduced an inconsistency, bench might be wobbly etc. Heh! Perhaps you twisted the mounting screw and loosened it instead of windage screw! :D
thanks. I'm curious tho, even with a stable bipod, you can still flinch and pull your shot? seems to me the gun would be pretty stable no?
No, you can pull shots even on a bipod... As to your question regarding your first 20 shots...It very well could be a lack of concentration after those shots. As many have pointed out consistency is the key.
Just to make certain you did check your sights to insure they had not worked loose? Good luck.
ETA: It appears Mistwolf and I were posting at the same time and he beat me to it.
I would have gotten my ass kicked if I'd ever joined the Army. I cannot get myself to place my nose to the charging handle of an AR when firing. It's a mental thing, I know but I do not want anything recoiling into my face, especially at that angle and to my nose! I don't care for long arms with combs that have much drop for the same reason.
I'll second what others have said- learn the fundementals- Trigger control, Breath control, Form, Sight Picture and Follow through. Get yourself a good coach as well. Few things are as satisfying as learning to be a rifleman
Lots of good discussion on this both this thread in general, and this post in particular, and I'd like to address two things, one relating to the NTCH and another relating to the rear sight.
First, having your nose to the charging handle (NTCH) isn't actually a magic position that sets you up for success when grouping and zeroing. Instead, it's having a consistent steady position and a consistent sight picture that is important. For new shooters, the first and most easily-recognizable "piece of terrain" between the butt of the rifle and the muzzle is generally the charging handle. That becomes a common frame of reference that they can find shot after shot to index themselves on. For you, MistWolf, and for lots of shooters of smaller stature (not suggesting that you are), it is, in fact, difficult or impossible to get all the way up to the charging handle. However, by trying to do so, they find the same position (or close enough to it) time and time again, and thus find a consistent steady position and consistent sight picture. Experienced shooters will often drift farther back, but if you look at the good ones you'll find that they tend to find the same approximate position (relative to a particular weapon and its sights) each time.
Second is a thought on a later post about how the rear peep sight doesn't matter as much, and that the front sight post doesn't need to be centered up. If I understand the poster's comment correctly, I'd have to respectfully disagree with that observation. Your job is to get the barrel lined up on your point of aim, whatever that may be. When using iron sights, you have to line up at least two points of reference along the barrel in order to achieve the correct aim; in the case of irons, those two points of reference are your front and rear sight. It does matter that you get the front sight post centered in the rear sight.
If you don't get the front sight post centered from left to right in the rear aperture, and you wing it and have the front sight post left of center in the rear peep, then your shot is going to go left of your point of aim. If you have the front sight post above center from top to bottom in the rear aperture, then your shot is going to impact high. With the sights on an M16 (and it sounds like your sights are set up fairly close to those on an M16), that error in aiming will repeat for every half meter that the round travels, and will impact completely off a target at 300 meters (that "repeating error" will change somewhat depending on the distance between the front and rear sight).
Now, having been particular about that, I will tell you that having the front sight centered in the rear sight is most critical when grouping and zeroing, and when shooting with irons for long range accuracy. It is less critical if you're shooting CQB, when getting your front sight post on target quickly is generally more important, and accuracy is somewhat "relative."
Again, hope it helps more than it confuses.
Well guys, I just returned from a 25 yard indoor range, taking all of your considerations with me. I definitely shot better this time. I was more relaxed and my groups were a bit tighter and I got to finally zero the rifle for 25 yards. And yes, the rear sight is firm and not loose.
I do have one question tho. On the troy rear sight, there are white lines, or notches that line up with one main notch on the peep holes. Now, I had to adjust my windage a bit to the right, so now the center white line is now lining up with the line 1 away from the center one. Is this OK? When both lines were centered, my shots were going a tad left.
The line is a reference and is supposed to represent mechanical zero. Mechanical zero is the mechanical center of your sight. That is if it take 100 clicks to go from all the way from the left to all the way to the right, mechanical zero would be 50 clicks from either the left or the right. At that point, the lines should align. Sometimes they won't and isn't a problem.
If you are a little off, no worries. You still have plenty of movement to adjust windage if needed
............Second is a thought on a later post about how the rear peep sight doesn't matter as much, and that the front sight post doesn't need to be centered up. If I understand the poster's comment correctly, I'd have to respectfully disagree with that observation. Your job is to get the barrel lined up on your point of aim, whatever that may be. When using iron sights, you have to line up at least two points of reference along the barrel in order to achieve the correct aim; in the case of irons, those two points of reference are your front and rear sight. It does matter that you get the front sight post centered in the rear sight.
If you don't get the front sight post centered from left to right in the rear aperture, and you wing it and have the front sight post left of center in the rear peep, then your shot is going to go left of your point of aim. If you have the front sight post above center from top to bottom in the rear aperture, then your shot is going to impact high. With the sights on an M16 (and it sounds like your sights are set up fairly close to those on an M16), that error in aiming will repeat for every half meter that the round travels, and will impact completely off a target at 300 meters (that "repeating error" will change somewhat depending on the distance between the front and rear sight).
.....
=============================
It's probably the way I explain things about the peep sights but the sights are aligned by just looking through the rear sight and putting front sight post on target.
Your eye will "automatically" get itself into a position where the pupil gets the most light through it. This is an exact and precise position, that is the first alignment. The second (and third) alignment is putting the tip (2nd) of the front sight on the target (3rd).
When I was a kid, a gruff old Uncle taught me how to use a peep sighted old Springfield '03A3. His only instruction was to just look through the rear peep, don't center anything up, put the front sight on the bullseye, hang on, and gently squeeze the trigger. He gave me a pile of stripper clipped surplus ammo, which I had to separate out to load. He told me for every shot that missed the 6" bullseye, I'd have to shoot two more shots. That thing kicked so hard, but once I learned how to "ride" that gun, I quickly learned to suck it up and only had to shoot about 9 or 10 shots. I remember the next day we went swimming and my Aunt was so pissed at my Uncle when she saw my yellow, black & blue shoulder. :) ...long time ago.
But maybe it's just me...
.
Devildog0311
01-20-11, 04:53
ejewels,
I'm going to lay out two things for you: a sort of a checklist of things that you ought to focus on right now in terms of mastering the fundamentals, and a set of drills that will help you to start to ingrain those fundamentals. Along the way, I'll try to share some of the "why" behind certain checklist items, as well as behind parts of the drills.
Right up front, let me tell you two limitations to all of this. First, I'm not going to be able to adequately address natural point of aim, which is going to affect how you shoot. I just don't know how to incorporate that into what I'm laying out for you. Second, I'll tell you that this checklist, and this set of drills, will only get you so far without an experienced, trained instructor or coach--someone who not only "gets it," but who understands how to identify it and how to explain it well.
That said, here goes...
Shooter's checklist. Every time you start to shoot, go through this mental checklist (with time, you'll ingrain these things and won't have to think through them deliberately), paying attention to steady position, sight alignment, steady breathing, and trigger squeeze:
1. Confirm your steady position (start from you and work out):
o Weapon firmly planted in the pocket of your shoulder;
o Consistent and solid cheek-weld;
o Tip of the nose as close to the charging handle as possible;
o Firing hand high on and firmly wrapped around the pistol grip--the v between thumb and trigger finger all the way up in the pistol grip-buttstock notch (leave it loose, and--just like with a pistol--you'll have a tendency to milk the grip and pull shots off-target);
o Elbows firmly planted, on the inside plane if possible;
o Legs & body flat to the ground (when firing prone--you want to have as much of you as flat on the ground as possible);
o Non-firing hand loosely grasping the rifle.
2. Check your aim (start from the front sight and work back in):
o Focus on the front sight post (though not to the exclusion of all else);
o Good & consistent eye relief (here's when NTCH is good for a new shooter like you--it helps you get one consistent sight picture, which is critical when grouping & zeroing);
o Eye not shuttering.
3. Check your breathing (you'll pay less attention to this the more experienced you become, but it's critical for a new shooter):
o Steady, controlled rise and fall of the chest;
o Proper breath hold (after the exhale);
o If you're not ready, start again, breath another cycle, and apply your breath-hold.
4. Smooth trigger squeeze:
o Smooth, steady squeeze of the trigger all the way through (no double-clutching, etc.);
o No jerking;
o Smooth and complete reset of the trigger before starting again (you're learning to apply the fundamentals, not learning CQB yet).
For our new shooters, we have those checklist items on a 5 x 8 card, and another shooter beside them as a coach, using the checklist. If you can, have someone do the same for you.
On the subject of steady position (the first fundamental), you ought to think of it in terms of a stable position having two aspects: the relationship between you and the weapon (hence the focus on the weapon tight in your shoulder, a good cheek-weld, etc.), and the relationship between you and the ground (hence the focus on getting as much of you flat on the ground as possible).
Now, once you understand and can start to apply the fundamentals, you can start the drill(s). It goes without saying that, at home, you're going to use an empty magazine, or a magazine with dummy rounds; in your case, always physically separate the live rounds from your weapon (i.e., in another room entirely) before you start. Then, you're going to do the following tasks, in sequence:
1. Assume the prone firing position (work mentally through the first two checklist items above).
2. Fire in the prone position (work through the last two checklist items above). The weapon will not fire.
3. Apply immediate action to your rifle (SPORTS) in the prone position (This might seem redundant, and you'll be tempted to omit this, but if you do it you'll handle almost any malfunction smoothly and efficiently; if you don't, you'll immediately identify yourself as that guy, like a monkey trying to wind a digital watch. Do the whole SPORTS now; you can abbreviate it as appropriate--say to Tap-Rack-Bang--later as you become more experienced).
4. Resume a good prone firing position (work mentally through the first two checklist items again).
That's going to count as one repetition. After one repetition, get up before starting the next, so you have to work through getting into the same stable position and applying the fundamentals time and time again. I recommend that, initially, you do at least 25 repetitions per day if your schedule allows (more is better), until you start to groove things in. We put these drill tasks on the other side of our 5 x 8 card as a reference. Once you can do them consistently dry-firing, you're ready to go to the range and start with grouping & zeroing.
I hope that helps; let me know if it isn't clear, or if it raises any questions
VR,
BH
I have to say this is why I joined this site. I applaud you for taking the time to do this for someone. I am not a new shooter, far from it, but the shooting world needs more guys like you. OOrah!
Devildog0311
01-20-11, 04:58
yeah, i noticed the nose to CH is harder for me. I'm in a ban state and my stock is pinned, 1 click in using a MOE butt stock. I have to really stretch my neck to get my nose up there, and it doesn't feel that natural.
Thank god I live in TX
To add to what BH and ucrt are saying, if you think too hard about it you'll never get it right.
In my use of the iron sights at a recent class I found that when I got all worked up about center this in the middle of that and continue to concentrate on same it never worked. When I relaxed, found the center of the target, focused on the front sight, put it in the center of the blur, and effectively ignored the rear sight altogether it worked out much better for me.
So they are both right. Yes, you need to have the tip of the front sight post centered in the middle of the rear aperture, both horizontally and vertically, but you also need to forget about that and concentrate on focusing on the front sight and centering it in the blur that is the target, and working the trigger straight to the rear. The centering thing will mostly take care of itself.
If you are a little off, no worries. You still have plenty of movement to adjust windage if needed
Yeah, its only one line notch over to the right. I think it took about 4 clicks to get there. As long as this doesn't mean something is wrong, then i'm good with it. This might be a dumb question, but why even have windage on an AR? If you have to go way right or left, wouldn't that eventually mess your aim up at longer distances?
I also found that the more relaxed I shot and didn't flinch, my rounds weren't going as far to the left.
I also found that the more relaxed I shot and didn't flinch, my rounds weren't going as far to the left.
When you flinch your other body parts all react to it. But usually the same way everytime. It takes a long time to figure out what you are doing wrong and how to over come it. When you find the way (that works for you) to shoot and have nice groups close to POA then you need to practice that everytime, eventually your muscles will remember that (even your eyes) and it becomes easier.
When I shoot my handgun, I pull every shot to the 7 oclock position on the target. Granted I have some nice groups there but they are not close enough to center for me. Is it my trigger finger? Is it my grip on the gun? Who knows and I have not figured it out yet but am working on it. This could also be that I am right handed but left eye dominate and am working on the solution for that as well since I shoot both eyes open. (and have become much better since)
My point ist that whether you shoot handguns or rifles you have to find what works for you. All of the information iin this thread is great to start and will work everytime with practice. Print the info out and take it with you.
Oh, and I like to think of range time as a relaxation time, don't go in a hurry, take your time.
T2CH, here is a target that should help you identify what you're doing wrong
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v317/Windustsearch/20j1bt3.png
T2CH, here is a target that should help you identify what you're doing wrong
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v317/Windustsearch/20j1bt3.png
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I don't know if that target is correct in its analysis ... but those way outside misses being labeled as "Using Mini-14" are hilarious. :haha:
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I don't know if that target is correct in its analysis ... but those way outside misses being labeled as "Using Mini-14" are hilarious. :haha:
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:D I found those amusing as well. However, the rest of the chart is legitimate for a right handed shooter
Magic_Salad0892
01-20-11, 17:06
I don't know how useful you'll find it, but it could add to the discussion:
The first long gun I ever shot was an AK-74M clone.
Eyes are kind of far from even the rear sight, and it's very fast on target. IMO.
I believe SKS rifles are the same way.
T2CH, here is a target that should help you identify what you're doing wrong
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v317/Windustsearch/20j1bt3.png
Thanks, makes since.
Good stuff on the mini 14, especially the scoped mini 14
Is there a consensus on where to mount red dots on the upper receiver based on eye distance? Most folks have them mounted as far forward on the upper receiver as possible without getting out on top of the barrel/handguards/rails area. Just wondering if there's a standard, and if so what the rhyme and reason for it is.
Not sure if this is the best way but I put it in a position where the housing disappears when looking down the rifle. I try to just see the target and red dot and little if any housing.
Is there a consensus on where to mount red dots on the upper receiver based on eye distance? Most folks have them mounted as far forward on the upper receiver as possible without getting out on top of the barrel/handguards/rails area. Just wondering if there's a standard, and if so what the rhyme and reason for it is.
Absolutely no consensus at all, in spite of an internet full of people that will look at someone else's placement and tell them "you're doing it wrong".
I would argue that the optic should be forward of the rear sight, and behind the front sight. It should be attached to the upper, not the rail, even if the rail is free-float (with a possible exception for monolithic uppers), and should be placed to maximize YOUR view through it for YOUR kind of shooting. You should get out and train with it and shoot from unconventional positions to see how your location works for you and you should be willing to adjust that placement even if it means you have to go back to the range and check or re- zero.
Athirst5IoN
04-27-11, 11:40
T2CH, here is a target that should help you identify what you're doing wrong
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v317/Windustsearch/20j1bt3.png
Does anyone mind telling me what "Thumbing" is?
When I shoot my handgun, I pull every shot to the 7 oclock position on the target. Granted I have some nice groups there but they are not close enough to center for me. Is it my trigger finger? Is it my grip on the gun? Who knows and I have not figured it out yet but am working on it.
Used to have this exact problem but it only surfaced a year or so after finished with initial training and were no longer shooting hundreds of rounds a day. (Was a little more fun when my agency was paying for rounds...) Found that by applying more pressure with my left hand thumb where it runs along just below the slide, shots moved back from the 7 o'clock into the center of my POA. I actually thought about it as "pushing" the gun toward the right. I think I'm explaining that correctly. Just offered as it rang a bell as I read your post.
Does anyone mind telling me what "Thumbing" is?
Applying additional thumb pressure to the left side of the pistol when the shot breaks...i.e., flinching the thumb...
~Dan
Great thread.... from page 1 can someone tell me what [SPORTS] is.
Later to be equated to Tap, Rack, Bang. I get TRB but what is SPORTS?
Failure2Stop
12-31-11, 13:40
I get TRB but what is SPORTS?
There is debate and opinon, but it is generally considered to be Remedial action, following failure of immediate action (TRB).
Some consider it to be immediate action, but it is a pretty visually dependant model to follow in a gunfight.
Seek cover (sometimes "Slap bottom of magazine to ensure it is seated", for those that use it as Immediate Action)
Pull charging handle fully to the rear (sometimes includes "and lock it to the rear")
Observe the chamber for ejection or visible blockage of the chamber.
Release the charging handle (sometimes "Reload if necessary and release the bolt")
Tap the forward assist
Sight in and attempt to fire
It's pretty old-school, and has been replaced by more proactive techniques in more progressive training programs.
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I don't know if that target is correct in its analysis ... but those way outside misses being labeled as "Using Mini-14" are hilarious. :haha:
.
It's definitely very helpful. Thanks.
Good thread.
Ought to be a sticky, or at least a couple of the more technical posts, and titled AR Shooting 101
Great thread.... from page 1 can someone tell me what [SPORTS] is.
Later to be equated to Tap, Rack, Bang. I get TRB but what is SPORTS?
US Army Field Manual 3-22.9 (FM 3-22.9) Chapter 3 Section 1 outlines the definition of the term "Stoppage" and breaks down the method for clearing a stoppage into two types or steps. The first is "immediate action" or "quickly applying a possible correction to reduce a stoppage without performing troubleshooting procedures to determine the actual cause". The manual outlines the process, committed to memory through the acronym S.P.O.R.T.S, for applying immediate action as "the soldier:"
Slaps gently upward on the magazine to ensure it is fully seated, and the magazine follower is not jammed (see note).
Pulls the charging handle fully to the rear.
Observes for the ejection of a live round or expended cartridge. (If the weapon fails to eject a cartridge, perform remedial action.)
Releases the charging handle (do not ride it forward).
Taps the forward assist assembly to ensure bolt closure.
Squeezes the trigger and tries to fire the rifle.
Lots of great info in this thread. My groups with my new 6.8 upper are frustratingly erratic. Next trip I will be focusing on breathing and trigger control.
Thanks to all who offered up good advice.
Canonshooter
08-18-16, 05:38
Back to the top four years later...
While doing some research on aperture sights I found this, which I think is very relevant to this discussion. A great read, IMO -
http://dougkerr.net/Pumpkin/articles/Aperture_Sight.pdf
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