Frontline: Top Secret America

[Gutshot John]

Say what you will about PBS but they do quite a bit to inform the American public about what their government is doing.

Case in point, watch this video (it's airing on PBS/Frontline right now) for some things that will send chills down your spine.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/are-we-safer/?utm_campaign=AreWeSafer&utm_medium=googleads&utm_source=Keyword

This is not meant to be anti-government. I love my country, but the gist is that even those in the government are losing control of oversight and what all can be done, over and above the billions of taxpayer dollars.

[Belmont31R]

Im not a fan of "Fortress America"....



Especially when ATF agents show up at your door with pictures of relatives, military records, lists of guns Ive bought, and who knows what else.



And this is something that separates me from a lot of conservatives/republicans. Bush and the republican Congress gave us the TSA, DHS, (et al) and all the shit shown in the video. They gave us the Patriot Act. Im my eyes 2001-2006 was a much bigger assault on what is America than what Obama has done in the last 2 years.

[kal]

This isn't anything new. Before you're even born, somebody is watching you.

So long as there's due process, all is well.

[500grains]

This is not meant to be anti-government. I love my country, but .

Loving your country and loving your government are two completely different things. I definitely do not love my government. DHS and TSA should not exist. Neither should DEA or ATF, as their functions properly belong with the FBI.

[rljatl]

And this is something that separates me from a lot of conservatives/republicans. Bush and the republican Congress gave us the TSA, DHS, (et al) and all the shit shown in the video. They gave us the Patriot Act. Im my eyes 2001-2006 was a much bigger assault on what is America than what Obama has done in the last 2 years.

Republicans gave us the TSA, DHS, etc, NOT conservatives. There is a difference. Bush governed as a de facto Democrat.

[Belmont31R]

Republicans gave us the TSA, DHS, etc, NOT conservatives. There is a difference. Bush governed as a de facto Democrat.



Conservatives are the base of the republican party. Im a libertarian which puts me at odds with both republicans and democrats.

[HES]

Conservatives are the base of the republican party. Im a libertarian which puts me at odds with both republicans and democrats.
Amen. I feel that every election cycle is "meet the new boss, (almost) the same as the old boss". Our past few administrations have done little more than to compound the errors of their predecessors.

[Armati]

The sooner people realize that the US is terminal and will collapse the in the same way that all great empires have collapsed.

Don't believe me, do your own research. Study the events that led to the collapse of the Roman Republic, the British Empire, colonial Spain, and the USSR. All made the same mistakes that we are currently making.

[Gutshot John]

This was intended to discuss the topic of surveillance/counter-terror efforts at hand, not to discuss the philosophical underpinnings of the Republican party nor the decline of the United States.

This goes beyond ideology. If you watched the documentary you have intelligence officials like General Hayden who admitted that he couldn't claim to be aware of all the surveillance operations that occur within our nation. This is over and above the inability of Congress to oversee these programs and how that money is being spent. This is a real problem that has nothing to do with the DEA/ATF and getting into the security field I'm frankly at a loss as to how to address these problems.

If you haven't watched the documentary provided by the link, please refrain from posting.

If you have watched the documentary, please comment on what you saw and the problems at hand and how you might fix them while still maintaining domestic efforts to secure the US.

[Abraxas]

Im not a fan of "Fortress America"....



Especially when ATF agents show up at your door with pictures of relatives, military records, lists of guns Ive bought, and who knows what else.



And this is something that separates me from a lot of conservatives/republicans. Bush and the republican Congress gave us the TSA, DHS, (et al) and all the shit shown in the video. They gave us the Patriot Act. Im my eyes 2001-2006 was a much bigger assault on what is America than what Obama has done in the last 2 years.
Agreed

[500grains]

DHS is building a 1.2 billion dollar intel facility just south of Salt Lake City, Utah.



Construction Begins on $1.2 Billion Cyber Security Center

The US Army Corps of Engineers (USACE) is beginning work this week on a $1.2 billion facility that will house an NSA cyber security intelligence center.

"The 1.5-million-square-foot facility, known as the Utah Data Center, will house an NSA facility that will gather intelligence about cybersecurity threats to federal government networks," according to Infosecurity.

"The NSA center is being built as part of the White House’s Comprehensive National Security Initiative (CNSI), which is designed to improve cybersecurity efforts to protect federal computer networks," the article states.

http://www.infosecurity-us.com/view/14947/army-kicks-off-construction-of-12-billion-nsa-cybersecurity-center/

[variablebinary]

DHS is building a 1.2 billion dollar intel facility just south of Salt Lake City, Utah.



http://www.infosecurity-us.com/view/14947/army-kicks-off-construction-of-12-billion-nsa-cybersecurity-center/

Lots of people waiting to get hired on for this gig. I'm one of them.

[TehLlama]

I'm also impressed how well this coincides with clearance bloat (abuse of classification, overclassifying things meaning more people have to have higher clearances), leaving us with even more government employees with less and less direct oversight as the umbrella of high clearances keep getting larger.

[Honu]

I dont like this stuff ? but at the same time its PBS ? so they have their own lean to this !

picking democrat or republican is like asking Randy Couture to punch you in the right or left side of your head !!!!!

I love my country but do not trust the gov and think its not doing what we want as a collective the health care bill is a big one !!! and their is much proof when they ignore the avg person and call us idiots etc..

if this gov does not get in control of its spending and back in touch with the people and learn to listen ! we the people are hosed I fear !!!!

[500grains]

Lots of people waiting to get hired on for this gig. I'm one of them.

For construction or for staffing once construction is done?

[.45fmjoe]

Conservatives are the base of the republican party. Im a libertarian which puts me at odds with both republicans and democrats.

No, they are not.

You're talking about little "c" conservatives, not big "C" Conservatives that trace our heritage to Jefferson, Madison and more recently Goldwater and to a degree Reagan.

Your argument is like saying the liberal democrats are actually "Liberals;" they are not, they are statists.

[Gutshot John]

No, they are not.

You're talking about little "c" conservatives, not big "C" Conservatives that trace our heritage to Jefferson, Madison and more recently Goldwater and to a degree Reagan.

Your argument is like saying the liberal democrats are actually "Liberals;" they are not, they are statists.

Highly simplistic. Jefferson for instance was a jacobin and in many ways highly radical in his rhetoric. Madison and Jefferson have very little in common politically speaking.

Did you watch the video? Anything you'd care to share about what you saw?

[thopkins22]

Highly simplistic. Jefferson for instance was a jacobin and in many ways highly radical in his rhetoric. Madison and Jefferson have very little in common politically speaking.

Agreed, they were miles apart.... Perhaps he meant Franklin, or better yet Thomas Paine.


I found the video to be a real eye opener. The scale of the intelligence industry is worrisome, especially considering the fact that it makes all other government largess look tightly regulated and scrutinized.

I'd be curious to know how much of what is being done is considered legal(nevermind effective,) and how much of it will be brushed under the rug with a "Woops, we didn't realize that wasn't cool."

[.45fmjoe]

Highly simplistic. Jefferson for instance was a jacobin and in many ways highly radical in his rhetoric. Madison and Jefferson have very little in common politically speaking.

Did you watch the video? Anything you'd care to share about what you saw?

Nope, I'm studying DUI stops right now. I have an exam on Tuesday and there is a shit ton of material in this chapter.

I was just speaking from my own personal knowledge and opinion, and it was highly simplistic for a reason.

[Belmont31R]

Agreed, they were miles apart.... Perhaps he meant Franklin, or better yet Thomas Paine.


I found the video to be a real eye opener. The scale of the intelligence industry is worrisome, especially considering the fact that it makes all other government largess look tightly regulated and scrutinized.

I'd be curious to know how much of what is being done is considered legal(nevermind effective,) and how much of it will be brushed under the rug with a "Woops, we didn't realize that wasn't cool."



Since its in public they can pretty much do anything. Courts have recently even said LEO's can place a GPS device on your car without a warrant.



And this stuff is all over the place. I live in a town of 45k, and every intersection/light has at least 5 cameras on the poles. There are probably at least 500 cameras at minimum in this city. They can afford those, I guess, but can't put sensors in the road so the lights know when to change. But anyways its becoming pretty clear you can expect to be on video at all times unless you are in your own home with the blinds shut.



Kinda related but municipalities are also using google earth to search people's property for code violations like pools they didn't get a permit for, additions, buildings, ect.

[Gutshot John]

The ALPR systems was one of the things that really gave me the heebie-jeebies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_number_plate_recognition

[Armati]

This was intended to discuss the topic of surveillance/counter-terror efforts at hand, not to discuss the philosophical underpinnings of the Republican party nor the decline of the United States.

This is all part of the creeping lunacy that is leading to the death of the US. What are your questions?

The average citizen has very little idea on what their tax dollars are spent on or what their govt officials are doing while 'on the clock.' We spend billions on military, security, intel, and LE programs that do very little to actually benefit the average citizen.

911 is often called 'the day that changed everything.' Nonsense. The only thing we need is a civilian population with attitude, aptitude, and legal authority to act in their own defense. Look at every attempted bombing since 911 - Richard Reed and Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab come immediately to mind. In both cases the massive multi-billion dollar security establishment failed. Instead, the attacker was subdued by private citizens. 911 could never happen again because We The People already know the score.

This is all so much 'Security Theater'. It does almost nothing to make us the least bit safer and quite a bit to undermine the Republic. An empire such as ours requires a state of perpetual war. Haven't you read George Orwell's "1984"? Once the Cold War ended we needed a new war. The War On Drugs was ready made as a potential replacement. However, it couldn't quite fill the void in multi-billion dollar weapon systems from the Cold War era. Fortunately, the GWOT was a ready made replacement. And again, we have a ready made replacement for the Cold War. We now have a war with no clear objective, no clear spending limits, a budget that is largely hidden, and a complete lack of spending oversight - much like the days of $800 toilet seats and $200 hammers during the Regan Administration.

So, with our debt ceiling now getting ready to go OVER $14,000,000,000,000 (yes Virginia, Congress WILL raise it again) the real question is just how much 'security' can we afford?

[MistWolf]

Im not a fan of "Fortress America"....



Especially when ATF agents show up at your door with pictures of relatives, military records, lists of guns Ive bought, and who knows what else.



And this is something that separates me from a lot of conservatives/republicans. Bush and the republican Congress gave us the TSA, DHS, (et al) and all the shit shown in the video. They gave us the Patriot Act. Im my eyes 2001-2006 was a much bigger assault on what is America than what Obama has done in the last 2 years.

Bush was no conservative

[SPARTAN HOPLITE ARMS]

Since its in public they can pretty much do anything. Courts have recently even said LEO's can place a GPS device on your car without a warrant.



And this stuff is all over the place. I live in a town of 45k, and every intersection/light has at least 5 cameras on the poles. There are probably at least 500 cameras at minimum in this city. They can afford those, I guess, but can't put sensors in the road so the lights know when to change. But anyways its becoming pretty clear you can expect to be on video at all times unless you are in your own home with the blinds shut.



Kinda related but municipalities are also using google earth to search people's property for code violations like pools they didn't get a permit for, additions, buildings, ect.

Big brother in every sense of the word. Greece has resorted to using satellites to survey properties in order to catch property owners who have installed pools and other luxury items. Luxury items are taxed heavily every year that they're owned and since their government is extremely socialist, people have been evading taxes for years now..and I don't mean small percentages but huge swaths of the population. Are US states and the federal government now stooping to socialist Euro-style tactics? Oh boy. :help:

[QuietShootr]

This isn't anything new. Before you're even born, somebody is watching you.


That is NOT OK.

[Heartland Hawk]

In my small town the city installed the traffic cams at most of the busy intersections, "for our safety". It got the majority of the population in and uproar. Ultimately nothing was changed; the cameras remain. While I can see the utility of the cams at intersections, cameras at other locations are worrisome.

[Armati]

If the Republicans in Congress are still confused as to where to cut the budget, maybe they could start with some of these programs. They are horrendously expensive, lack any real fiscal oversight, and are of dubious public value.

[Gutshot John]

Haven't you read George Orwell's "1984"? Once the Cold War ended we needed a new war. The War On Drugs was ready made as a potential replacement. However, it couldn't quite fill the void in multi-billion dollar weapon systems from the Cold War era. Fortunately, the GWOT was a ready made replacement.

I did read 1984, but the comparison between 1984 and what is going on now is deeply flawed. The "war" in 1984 was perhaps an excuse but it was decidedly left open as to whether it was actually happening or not.

There is no doubt that there is a GWOT and that it wasn't us that started it. If you think the GWOT is a manufactured crisis meant to lull us into servitude, you missed the point of the video.

The video pretty conclusively shows that there isn't some sort of cabal or conspiracy, it's simply so big that no one actually knows where it begins or ends. There isn't the oversight that there should be because no single person can actually see the whole picture. This was not the case with 1984.

Relevant to other responses about traffic cameras, I think there is a huge difference between a red light or speeding camera and surveillance such as automated licesnse plate readers. The former is activated when you break the law, the latter simply happens as a matter of course.

I agree that they are of dubious value but simply cutting these programs (if you could indeed identify them all) still leaves the real problems of security that need to be addressed. When you're talking about terrorist events that can indeed cost in the trillions of dollars (as did 9/11), you do need to spend some money on security. And compared to SS/Medicare, there is a greater RoI. Similarly they are a drop in the bucket compared to other spending programs.

The problem remains that they are not coordinated, there lacks oversight to determine effectiveness and there is little public debate as to what the citizenry wants, let alone will tolerate.

[Robb Jensen]

Thread has turned anti-LE....