View Full Version : What polymer platform would you choose?
poirierpro
01-18-11, 22:46
Question: If you had to start all over regarding a "polymer platform pistol" ie all Glock, M&P, XD, etc...for CCW, range, home defense, what would it be?? Why?
Again, this is if you could change platforms (or stick with what ya got) what would you choose? Basically what is your favorite plastic gun as of now?
Lost River
01-18-11, 22:55
I would go straight Glocks.
G19 and G21SF would work for me..
I would say Glock. Nothing matches it on serviceability, accessories, market/armorer support, customer service, track record, weight to firepower ratio, and price. It still sets the standard and I've owned them all.
USP .45 Tactical here. The hammer is a PITA for CCW though.... I carry it in SA.
I will either buy another FN 5-7 or a Glock 19 to augment the H&K for CCW :)
Glock 17, purely for the reason it's the gun I have most accurately shot when compared to my own FNP, and the others I have shot including M&P 9, XD9 and XDm9. That said, the reason I ended up with my FNP was ergonomically it worked for me. It had an instant comfort level for me. I think I will still end up with a Glock at some point in the future.
That is a very tough question that I am asking myself right now. I currently carry and love my 3rd Gen Glock 23 but, I find myself asking "what else is out there".
I think starting over and already having all the holsters etc I would go with a Glock 19 especially when there is a local shop that gives the LEO discount to criminal justice majors. However I would be very happy with an M&P9 as a possible carry gun as well. I just love the beaver tail and the way the grip feels.
SpeedRacer
01-18-11, 23:10
I switched from the XD platform to the M&P and couldn't be happier. Carry and HD guns are M&P-9s.
Can't go wrong with Glocks either. If I shot them well I would've never owned an XD in the first place.
poirierpro
01-18-11, 23:14
That is a very tough question that I am asking myself right now. I currently carry and love my 3rd Gen Glock 23 but, I find myself asking "what else is out there".
I think starting over and already having all the holsters etc I would go with a Glock 19 especially when there is a local shop that gives the LEO discount to criminal justice majors. However I would be very happy with an M&P9 as a possible carry gun as well. I just love the beaver tail and the way the grip feels.
Exactly what I'm going through! I have a G23 3rdGen and honestly I dont really even like shooting it...it was one of those good deals I could not pass up.
I'm really leaning towards the M&P line...mainly torn between the M&P9c and the Glock 26.
F-Trooper05
01-18-11, 23:21
P30, and it's not even close.
glock 9mm or HK in any other caliber (or 9)
those are really the only 2 brands i'll carry.
HK. The guns work well in 9mm, .40 and .45. Glock is very durable in 9mm and I liked the 21sf I shot, but there are too many reported incidents of problems with the 21 to make me feel comfortable with it. HK USPs are ugly, at least I think they are, and hard to conceal, but run really well and are accurate. If I were buying new poly pisols, I would try the P2000, P30, HK45 and 45 compact before I decided.
mkmckinley
01-18-11, 23:57
I really like my M&P9 and after about 4,000 rounds with Apex parts and no failures of any kind I have absolutely no complaints. With Apex it really is like a Glock with better ergos.
Magic_Salad0892
01-19-11, 00:00
Glock 17, or H&K P30.
If exclusively .45 then an HK45. (Maybe an HK45C.)
I am a die-hard HK fan and right now am shooting HK45 and P2000 .40/9mm exclusively. If I had to start-over right now, I may just go to the M&P series. Why? I think S&W did a great job with that pistol, lots of after market support, easy to use and above all, reliable.
Since that's doesn't need to happen, I'm taking my HK to the range soon.
Fire_Medic
01-19-11, 06:22
HK. The guns work well in 9mm, .40 and .45. Glock is very durable in 9mm and I liked the 21sf I shot, but there are too many reported incidents of problems with the 21 to make me feel comfortable with it. HK USPs are ugly, at least I think they are, and hard to conceal, but run really well and are accurate. If I were buying new poly pisols, I would try the P2000, P30, HK45 and 45 compact before I decided.
The only incidents with G21's was with the SF's that had ambi magazine releases. The only other issue if you will was finding a holster for a G2 with the picatinny rail if you had one. By a G21 with standard magazine release and Glock rail and you're GTG.
I did make the choice, and consciously chose Glocks. At this point I am far too invested in them in terms of support as well as accessories, magazines, etc. to change. But, if the house burned down and I got the insurance check...
I suspect I would still wind up with Glock. Being the best established and longest running of the bunch offers benefits that the others can't (yet) touch. I can get a .22 conversion for it (perhaps several different brands), I can get an airsoft replica of it (albeit rarer than hen's teeth these days), holster makers have been working with them for years, magazines are $20 or less, etc.
I would, however, probably take the check and use it to buy a couple of different guns to see if one just jumped out at me as being so significantly better than the Glock as to merit ignoring all the ancillary advantages the Glock has. I *suspect* that it would not be the case, but I'd at least give it a run, with enough cash and time on hand to give it a good effort.
I have XD's, M&p's but I am standardizing on GLOCKS. They are dependable, easy to self repair and they fit my hand. But 1911's come 1st, then Glocks, then HP's and then S&W revolvers.
rapomstage3
01-19-11, 06:41
I choose glock. Recently i did fire a s&w m+p 45. I was impressed with the feel and recoil. But history tells me the go to gun in the safe is the glock.
It's kinda hard to not choose a Glock. However I recently purchased a M&P 45 Mid with the DCAEK kit from Grant and really like it a lot. So much so that I'm getting another one very soon.
I'd go M&P based on a combination of price, availability, aftermarket support, ergonomics and performance. For me, I shoot it better than Glocks and all the aftermarket support while it still pales in comparison to Glock's has what I need/want (sights, holsters/mag puches, trigger components).
I would say Glock. Nothing matches it on serviceability, accessories, market/armorer support, customer service, track record, weight to firepower ratio, and price. It still sets the standard and I've owned them all.
I agree with this.
Question: If you had to start all over regarding a "polymer platform pistol" ie all Glock, M&P, XD, etc...for CCW, range, home defense, what would it be?? Why?
Again, this is if you could change platforms (or stick with what ya got) what would you choose? Basically what is your favorite plastic gun as of now?
Glocks in 9mm, for all the reasons others have posted.
I've said for years that if I ever get the chance to transition or standardize another agency or user group, it will be to G19s.
I chose M&P. Would be equally happy with Glocks.
HK P30 and HK 45. The company itself has been a top of the line firearms maker for pretty much its entire existance. Other companies have their ups and downs, while H&K remains consistantly good at what they do. It's hard to beat their firearms when it comes to innovation, reliability, durability, and performance. You get what you pay for.
I plan on buying an M&P9 sooner or later, and down the road I plan on buying a Glock 17 trade-in to leave in my car as a "car gun". (Meaning it's a beater gun, inexpensive enough that I wouldn't be absolutely devastated if the car was broken into and it was stolen, also a gun that if I'm in the car and somewhere I can't carry and my life is on the line, I'll be grabbing that)
A family member has a Glock 21 that I've used quite a bit over the years and there is a slight adjustment in picking it up and getting the feel for it the pointing for me is weird.
No such issue with a Gen 3 Glock 17 for me. I'll leave it in the car for SHTF, and I plan on carrying an M&P.
I'd buy either with confidence (and plan to), both have great support, a lot of aftermarket (quality) options, I'm just kicking myself for not realizing this 2 years ago. But, it is what it is.
Realized the same thing with .45 versus 9mm. You learn, the hard way or the easy way.
All of the whining about the S&W reset, I'll be honest with you the S&W I fired with an Apex Sear and Ultimate Firing Pin Block (I'm fairly certain it had an effect on the issue, so that's why I mentioned it), it's legitimate gripe, you can find the reset and learn it, but there's a learning curve, IMHO, but the Apex RAM seems to correct that.
That's really the only distinct difference I can think of. I like Metal magazines over polymer, but, Glocks have metal inserts in them, so I don't think it's a real issue.
Anyway, YMMV.
I don't think you can go wrong either way.
Smith and Wesson M&P, without a doubt. I seem to be too heavily invested (and comfortable) with other polymer guns right now, so switching over just doesn't make sense. But I've convinced a couple of friends to buy them, and every time we go to the range together, I'm a little jealous. The M&P is everything a striker-fired polymer gun ought to be, and the price is right. For my money, it's unbeatable in the current market.
willowofwisp
01-19-11, 10:49
Its really hard for me to choose, I really LOVE the glock 9mm platform...the 26 is the perfect size following the 19 and the 34/17..Glock just does the 9mm right.
but when it comes to other calibers such as .40 or .45..I can't stand the glocks, here is where the s&w m&p line truly shines. My m&p .45 shoots just as well if not better than some custom 1911's and it works every time.
Easy. Glocks. The reasons are stated above. Easy to use, Cheap mags, easy to maintain, and my personal favorite...proven track record. I know that it will go bang every time the trigger is pulled. The abundance of holsters and parts that are available on the market just adds to it.:cool:
Question: If you had to start all over regarding a "polymer platform pistol" ie all Glock, M&P, XD, etc...for CCW, range, home defense, what would it be?? Why?
Again, this is if you could change platforms (or stick with what ya got) what would you choose? Basically what is your favorite plastic gun as of now?
You could do a search and find numerous threads on offerings from various manufacturers, as well as forumites' opinions and comparisons as they see it.
That being said, I did start over after using Glocks for 20+ years, and my choice is the M&P hands down. The ship has sailed and left Glock at the dock.
9 mm Glocks, any caliber M&P's, and if I needed a non-striker fired pistol for some reason the HK P30 or HK45c.
After my experience with the HK P-30 I would go with the P-30, P-2000, P2000sk line. Glocks and M&P's are cheaper with more plentiful parts, but I shoot the P-30 best.
Army Chief
01-19-11, 11:43
It's admittedly too soon to tell, but I maintain a strong interest in seeing what the Walther PPQ is going to bring to the table.
AC
It's admittedly too soon to tell, but I maintain a strong interest in seeing what the Walther PPQ is going to bring to the table.
AC
For me, one of the strong points of Glock and M&P is the pure amount of accessories available. When it came to buying a holster for my FNP-9 the options were slender to say the least. That seems to be the price you pay for buying less mainstream guns like FN and Walther.
I've standardized on the M&P platform but still have a Glock 19 that I have a love/hate relationship with (I hate to love it). I don't think you'd go wrong with either, but my personal preference is the M&P.
Having shot the 3 platforms, I'd go with the P30S platform, because:
1.) M&Ps for me *NEED* a DCAEK. While the gun is ergonomic and a great shooter, I find myself fishing for a reset when shooting stock M&Ps. I'd rather just take my guns out of the box and run with them.
2.) Glocks are great. I love my G19. However, the lack of an external safety makes me wary. Otherwise, great trigger, famously reliable, mag well already built in go my 3rd Gen.
3.) This brings me to the P30S. Although it is larger than a G19, it brings many of the features I want. DA/SA, cocked and locked (external safety) if I wanted, very ergonomic. Comes from the factory set up exactly the way I want it.
I went 9mm because ammo is plentiful and inexpensive, and gives me the most range time. .45ACP while a good caliber, costs about 150% more and most weapons in .45 have less capacity (where shot placement is king, every extra round is another chance to hit a vital area). All in all, all 3 of the guns I mentioned are great guns, but this is my line of thought and what I've chosen.
HK P30 and HK 45. The company itself has been a top of the line firearms maker for pretty much its entire existance. Other companies have their ups and downs, while H&K remains consistantly good at what they do. It's hard to beat their firearms when it comes to innovation, reliability, durability, and performance. You get what you pay for.
Pretty much this.
I personally prefer the USP's in 9mm and .40 over the P2000's and P30's (since I require a safety and despise the "spidey-grips" of the P30). If we're talking .45, then the HK45C (again, I hate the grips on the full-size HK45).
gillian_seed
01-19-11, 12:38
I would stick with what I already have, a USP .40 which has some cool features that I love.
First: The magazine release is fantastic, nothing wrong with push button releases, but the USP's paddle is fast (and ambidextrous) I don't have to change my firing grip do eject a mag.
Second: Seating a magazine firmly automatically closes the slide. This coupled with the paddle mag release makes changes very fast. (I know M&P's do this also, but in my experience it's easier to do with the USP).
Third: The USP runs the gambit of trigger types from DA/SA, to DA, or even the interesting and appealing LEM. Personally I have mine stock, and carry it cocked and locked.
Fourth: The grip texture is very aggressive (but not painful, it is only plastic afterall:p). I have no trouble keeping this gun firmly planted in my hands while firing (or doing anything else for that matter:D).
Finally (and most importantly): Reliability. The USP is an incredibly reliable platform in all it's different variations.
It's not perfect though, it's main drawback is it's mass. It is quite a large handgun. Also it's magazine capacity is less than stellar. In fact, a compact .40 S&W Glock (model 23) holds two more rounds than a full size USP :confused: (15 in the Glock versus 13 in the USP). Finally the DA trigger pull is quite heavy, but as previously mentioned I get around this by carrying cocked and locked. (Also my USP is an early model that dosen't put the trigger at half cock when I de-cock it. So newer USP's probably have a much better DA pull.)
In the end I'm happy with my choice, but I wouldn't hesitate to chose a 9mm Glock, M&P of any caliber, or HK's new offerings.
For now I will stay with the M&P line. The M&P9 is just as good as the 9mm Glocks and the M&P 40 and 45 is better than the Glocks in those calibers. Win, win.
Now, since this thread can also be a want thing... I will probably get the P30 when they release the striker-fired version. I can't stand DA/SA anymore after practicing with the M&Ps.
:thank_you2:
PrivateCitizen
01-19-11, 13:18
After evaluating Glock, SW and the HK P30.
I shot equally well with the SW and HK … price was the determining factor.
The Glocks were fine and 100%. It was a matter of UI and ergos.
There is no 'wrong' choice, only a 'right' choice in this grouping.
GermanSynergy
01-19-11, 14:19
Easy day: Glock 17 and M&P 9. Both are reliable platforms with lots of holster/sight options. No reason to even consider something like an XD, etc.
variablebinary
01-19-11, 14:28
In order
1. Glock
2. M&P
3. HK
poirierpro
01-19-11, 15:29
Guys these are ALL great comments! Keep em coming! One issue I failed to mention was the availability of holsters, aftermarket parts, ect. I see that there are a lot of HK fans here and thats great. I feel it is still between Glock and M&P for me due to price point. I think you get a lot more bang for your buck with these two...no pun intended.
Are there any Smith/Glock armorers here that can tell us the differences, pros and cons of the inner workings/trigger system/durability of the M&P vs. Glock? Maybe that will finally push me to one side...
Thanks again everyone
I switched from Glocks to M&Ps for the grip design and ergos. I like Glocks a lot but hate their grip. I would love to see Glock produce a "Robar" version with a reduced/enhanced grip.
M&Ps shoot better for me and the CT grips are a way better design too.
If I had my druthers I would probably choose the Glock trigger in the M&P frame. It is easier/simpler to work on and I like the more positive reset.
Buckaroo
If your going for a 9mm platform, a Glock 19 or 17 would be my recommendation. My current 9mm defensive platform is a HK USPC and I love it... but I'm switching over to a G17. They're just so much easier in every aspect.
If it's a .45 ACP platform you want, go with the HK45/C pistols. Hands down.
I recently made this decision and I chose the M&P. I do not regret this decision at all. I've owned one Glock and while I have no doubt about its reliability I never got used to the grip angle. I've also owned an HK and I think that would be my second choice.
Just_Plain_T.
01-19-11, 16:43
Glocks have always served me well.
I also like the XD platform.
Try this thread:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=68099
Glock for striker fired i researched this for a long time. I have 12 glock now. The HK's also for DA/SA guns no comparison's to either for me.
I would go with the HK45c. It is a very accurate and reliable gun. I have never had a single problem with mine. I changed over to the LEM trigger and really like it. You pay for what you get.
HK45, HK P30, HK P30 (in the new 40)
I carry an M&P 40 forty hours a week and a Glock the rest of the time. If I had my choice I would carry a Glock all of the time.
RiflemanBobcat
01-19-11, 19:21
Personally, I went with Glock in 9mm. But, that'd be because I'm issued (and required to carry) a Glock 22C [edit: with an Insight/Streamlight M3 incandescent weapon light] while on duty, so it made sense to me to pick a G19 for a personal-use pistol, and I'll be BUG-carrying a G27 as soon as I can pick one up at a decent price.
If I weren't carrying the Glocks though, I think I might have picked the M&P series for personal use. And duty carry, actually, if the agency allowed it.
But I work for one of those departments that is a confirmed House Of Glock, so I bet I'll be carrying Austrian plastic on duty and off for a looong time, unless I wind up going elsewhere. Good thing I don't mind them ;).
gtmtnbiker98
01-19-11, 19:47
I've already standardized, selling the Glocks, M&Ps and Sigs. Now I own HK pistols, exclusively. For 9 and .40, it's a P30, for .45 it's my HK45 and HK45c. The only non-HK handgun I own is my two J-frames.
Was it expensive, hell yes, but cost was not a consideration when it comes to my firearms.
crazymoose
01-19-11, 20:00
Glock or H&K are, in my experience, the two best. I've owned a few examples of the M&P, and while it's a competently executed firearm, nothing about it really impressed me (save for the trigger with the Apex mods). The Glocks and the USP family are durable, really well engineered and manufactured workhorses.
Once I got past my 1990's naive purchase of a Beretta 96D Centurion. :rolleyes: I decided to try out a variety of different guns that my friends had. I found that the Glock fit my hand well and that I shot it better than any of the others I tried. I decided to go with Glocks exclusively. Now I carry my 26 or 19 depending on wardrobe (they both fit in most of my holsters), and use the 19 for training and classes it's got over 3,000 rounds and runs flawlessly. My next purchase will be a second 19, then maybe a 17. If a Glock fits your hand and you can shoot it well, you'll never regret it. I know I don't.:D
RogerinTPA
01-19-11, 20:41
What Doc said....glocks for 9mm, any caliber in the M&P (I have four).
I started with m&p's, shot them very well, and then convinced myself I needed glocks. Sold the m&p, bought a glock, then realized my hobbit hands don't fit glocks and now I'm moving back to the m&p.
If your going for a 9mm platform, a Glock 19 or 17 would be my recommendation. My current 9mm defensive platform is a HK USPC and I love it... but I'm switching over to a G17. They're just so much easier in every aspect.
If it's a .45 ACP platform you want, go with the HK45/C pistols. Hands down.
I had a 9mm USP and when I traded it for the .45 I was very surprised how much easier the .45 was to shoot. I just do not think the 9mm is a powerful enough cartridge for the platform. The slide seemed way more snappy and that seems to cause more perceived recoil for me. For me, switching from a 9mm USP to a .45 Tactical was like switching from a Glock 19 to a Glock 34 -- It felt like it recoiled less and much more in a predictable way. I never tried a .40 but the .40 might be a better choice. My USP .45 Tac feels nothing recoil wise like my friends 1911s. It is wayyyy softer shooting, but it may not cycle as fast though. When I had a 9mm USP I found I could pull the trigger faster than it could shoot(too many video games for me!)... apparently the barrel lockup on the USP is not nearly as fast as some other designs... I guess that is why they never made it into a machine pistol despite having factory 31 round mags. I just feel that the normal 9mm/.40 USP frame really feels not right with the 9mm. I want to try out a .40 :)
If you have friends that have them all by all means shoot them all ;)
I made this decision and went with the M&P. I have tried to like Glocks and have owned several. I do well with Glocks, but I do not shoot them as well as I do other polymers. I shoot both the XD and the M&P better than the Glock, but my M&P9FS is my favorite polymer. It has great ergonomics, great accuracy, fantastic customer service and it goes bang every time I need it to. I sold my other polymers and standardized on M&Ps in 9mm. I have been very happy with that decision.
TheSurvivalist
01-20-11, 15:09
Glock 19 or H&K P30.
I've owned a variety of steel, aluminum, and polymer pistols over the years and 9mm Glocks have given me the greatest satisfaction. The various 9mm Glocks cover the spectrum of what I want from an autoloader. Another bonus is they've have allowed me to spend more time with handguns I enjoy to simply own and shoot, revolvers.
poirierpro
01-20-11, 17:09
Seem to be getting a lot of votes for 9mm Glocks...not a surprise. However, I believe if you are going to truly make things simple on yourself and standardize ALL calibers to ONE polymer platform...Glock does not win IMO. Agree? No?
Seem to be getting a lot of votes for 9mm Glocks...not a surprise. However, I believe if you are going to truly make things simple on yourself and standardize ALL calibers to ONE polymer platform...Glock does not win IMO. Agree? No?
Not all of us need a bunch of different service calibers...
mkmckinley
01-20-11, 18:52
Seem to be getting a lot of votes for 9mm Glocks...not a surprise. However, I believe if you are going to truly make things simple on yourself and standardize ALL calibers to ONE polymer platform...Glock does not win IMO. Agree? No?
Actually Glock does this better than any other company. Who else offers a product line that allows you to shoot .22 LR, 9mm, .45 ACP, .45 GAP, .40 S&W, .357 SIG, 10mm, and in Europe .380 Auto out of essentially the same pistol, not to mention the fact that you get to choose between small, medium, and large.
Actually Glock does this better than any other company. Who else offers a product line that allows you to shoot .22 LR, 9mm, .45 ACP, .45 GAP, .40 S&W, .357 SIG, 10mm, and in Europe .380 Auto out of essentially the same pistol, not to mention the fact that you get to choose between small, medium, and large.
I'm guessing he's referring to the less-than-9mm-Glock reliability of the bigger-than-9mm Glocks.
Actually no, Glock has not done it well. Glock has a well documented history of problems with .45ACP, .40 S&W, and forget 10MM. Glock was designed as a 9mm and has not transitioned well to larger calibers and higher pressure rounds. Why do Gen 4's have multiple recoil springs?
M&P on the other hand was designed around the 40 S&W and has transitioned to other rounds with great success. Not to mention, the M&P is ambidextrous, has grip inserts that actually make a difference, loaded chamber indicator, stainless steel chassis molded into the frame, better sights from the factory, thumb safety if desired, front cocking serrations. Glock has none of the aforementioned traits.
I think the reason that so many Glock users stick with them is because they have been around for some time now and are good pistols - in 9mm. I believe if many loyal Glock shooters tried an M&P, it would make a believer out of them.
poirierpro
01-20-11, 19:13
I'm guessing he's referring to the less-than-9mm-Glock reliability of the bigger-than-9mm Glocks.
Exactly ;)
mkmckinley
01-20-11, 19:44
I think the reason that so many Glock users stick with them is because they have been around for some time now and are good pistols - in 9mm. I believe if many loyal Glock shooters tried an M&P, it would make a believer out of them.
I totally agree, I'm an M&P9 convert myself and have two of them. I know there have been documented problems with some of the non-9 Glocks but when it comes to offering a lot of calibers in similar pistols I think Glock is at the top of that list. I don't doubt that some have had problems with their Glocks but I for one have never seen a bad apple. I use 9mm for defensive purposes but I like the idea that I could have a G19 for CC, a G26 subcompact for a backup or when i'm in a T shirt, a G34 for competition, a .22 slide for plinking and practice, and a G20 for the woods all with basically the same manual of arms and feel. The M&P line is approaching that capability but I don't see a 10mm coming out and nobody has released a .22 slide yet.
Seem to be getting a lot of votes for 9mm Glocks...not a surprise. However, I believe if you are going to truly make things simple on yourself and standardize ALL calibers to ONE polymer platform...Glock does not win IMO. Agree? No?
All calibers? Well, I guess there are other handguns that may have a better reputation in certain calibers. But that either means having a bunch of different pistols with different manual of arms/triggers/safeties/shooting characteristics or a single platform that I don't like as much as Glock. And there's still a strong argument for going all Glock for "all calibers". For instance there may be other handguns in .40 or .357 SIG that might be "better" but Glocks are still good handguns in those calibers as well. And I really like the G21SF and G20SF (How many platforms offer a good 10mm like Glock?). So going all Glock in "all calibers" still seems like a pretty good way to go. All in all the 9mm Glocks is the clincher and Glocks in "all other calibers" would give me plenty of variety (in terms of autoloaders) and keep things as simple as possible.
Dinosaur input here. I carried a wheelgun right up to retirement in 1994 although Glocks became authorized in 1986 or so. A few years later I spent a year trying to adapt to the G17 and it didn't take at all. I do shoot 1911s well for what that may prove. As an instructor I was once up to speed on what was new and wonderful, now seem to have way more single actions than semiautos. Hell, about five of them are percussions. For some reason I don't have any flintlocks--yet.
For no good reason I picked up a S&W Sigma in 9mm some months back (I already load for two BHPs) and it has been a surprise. Years ago I shot one of the early Sigmas in .40 and hated it. This one fits my hand, and the "heavy" trigger feels very revolver-like. It's been reliable with my handloads, and I can hit fast and well with it, unlike the Glocks. I'm aware that they're classed along with Hi-Points, but all I care about are results. KISS and reliability. God knows I've had enough lemons in 50 years of pistol shooting.
I'm sufficiently impressed by the Sigma to consider a .45 M&P, probably with a nice heavy MA trigger and no safety for starters. We'll see.
Stay safe.
Glock 17/19/26 followed by the M&P 9C. I much prefer the stock trigger of the Glock over that of the M&P, that said, the M&P is like slipping on a glove. I do feel that the G26 has the edge in carry over the 9C, its not as bulky.
I would add that the HK45 is also a nice pistol, though both overly large, and overly expensive, especially considering that polymer is supposed to reduce price. Nonetheless, for duty, I feel it is a superior offering.
If I was forced to carry a polymer gun, this how I would pick them.
1. H&K (DA/SA)
2. Glock
3. M&P
bondmid003
01-21-11, 00:14
G22 for carry, USP .40 for home defense and a G20 for anything with four legs :D
I think a lot has to do with caliber. If you're going to carry 9mm, it's VERY hard to argue with the G19 as an "all around" pistol - though you can expand the family easily to include the G26 for SLIGHTLY easier concealment, and the G34 for competition use.
If you were going to shoot .40 S&W, however, I think the M&P line handles the snap and recoil better - though that might change with the advent of the Grip Force Adapter and the soon-to-be-marketed Glock "beavertail" inserts for the Gen4 pistols.
In .45, the G21/G30 simply leave me cold, no matter how much I really want to like them. Grips are really large, even in the "SF" configuration, and there's something about looking down that IMMENSELY wide slide that just puts me off. The M&P family is worth strong consideration in this caliber, as is the HK45 and HK45c in LEM.
But, if you pushed me to it, and said I had to pick ONE family of polymer pistols for all purposes, I'd go with the 9mm Glock. I say this having recently had bad experiences with a Gen4 G19 and with a 3rd Gen G19 just back from Glock after a rebuild. I still think I've simply been on a bad-luck streak of epic proportions with Glocks lately (probably bad karma from selling off my Austrian-proofed G19...)
If I were working in/around cars all the time, I'd load my carry Glock with Corbon DPX or one of the top-tier bonded 9mms, and not worry about it.
But, that's simply one man's opinion, and worth precisely what you paid for it.
Regards,
Kevin
I'm curious, what is it about the G19 that gives it the edge over the M&P in most people's eyes? Is it just what most are comfortable with? The track record? The trigger?
I've owned both, a 4th gen G19 and a M&P 9, and the Smith just worked better for me mainly due to it's superior ergos.
Admittedly, had I bought a G19 first (and perhaps if I had larger hands), I may not have tried the M&P. Not because the Glock is better but because it is still very very good and works for most people.
Did I answer my own question?
If I was forced to carry a polymer gun, this how I would pick them.
1. H&K (DA/SA)
2. Glock
3. M&P
similar:
1. H&K (LEM)
2. Glock
3. M&P
the HK45/P30 series wins for me because of the ergonomics but i am equally comfortable with the USP series as well. i hate the out of the box glock; triggers suck, grip angle points the muzzle up too high, poor ergonomics, but they are easy to run. the m&p is better ergonomically but i personally only like the pro longslide with the performance center sear as the stock trigger is horrible.
i have a 17 and 21sf because one was given to me and the other was cheap. the 21sf has been modified with a grip reduction, stippling, lighter connector, and, in this configuration, is very acceptable to me. the 17 will stay stock and gets shot the least, for reasons i stated above. the 17/19 are good to get new shooters up to speed with the trigger and reset but when i let them try a HK most prefer it over a glock. the big wow and grin moment comes when i introduce them to a full size 1911, though. but that's not a polymer gun.
For 9mm
A Walther PPS.
I love how thin it is. For me, that's important for 2 reasons, some people can hide USP's pretty easily, I can't. That's why I love the Walther PPS, because it disapears with an IWB holster. The other thing I like is the grip. I prefer thin grips, they fit my hands better, maybe I have girly hands. The only drawback is the (relatively) low capacity. 8+1 is plenty for me however.
For .45ACP
A HK45
If I had to carry a polymer .45 concealed, It would be the HK 45. The .45 glocks all feel awkward(with the exception of the G36, which never works right). And the FN is way too big in my hands. I would like to try the S&W and the XD in .45. Of course I would take a 1911 every day over a polymer .45.
Last spring, I started out taking some defensive carbine,and pistol classes, At the first class, I was using a HK P-2000 with a light LEM..I did horribly with it. I then switched to my other 9mm pistol a M&P, and finished the classes with that. I shot it well.Back in Nov. I decided to give the HK another shot, applying what I'd picked up during the classes, (lots of dry firing practice, grip adjustment, switching backstraps, etc) I'm finding out it's very accurate, and the LEM trigger is really a good set up once you get on to it. Lately, the HK goes to the range while the M&P stays home, The only complaint I have with the P-2000 is, Heine dosen't make straight 8's for it. The only complaints I have with the M&P9 is, it's still evolving,and frankly, I've reached the point where I'm not sinking anymore money into improving it. The HK for example, dosen't need anything,(except some Heinie's) The M&P, I've installed Apex DCAEK, RAM,had Apex install a Mass. sear spring because I had a "dead trigger", had Heinie straight 8's installed, and now I've been reading about the accuracy issues with the 9's, because of the oddball twist S&W uses, and the fact the barrel unlocks too soon, Leading me to believe the next big "fix" on the horizon, is of course, a new barrel. MY midsize .45 on the other hand, is very accurate, (S&W got this one right)Mine (M&P9) seems to be one of those whose accuracy is OK,(not quite as good as the HK, but not bad either) At this point I have to ask myself if it's worth it..With what I paid for the M&P, and all the upgrades, I could have almost bought a P-30.. Now don't get me wrong, I still like the M&P, It's just not quite ready for prime-time, yet, And S&W could benefit from trying to improve it, rather than waste money developing their new "hillbilly handgun" that 410/45 thing...So to answer the orginial question, for now, I'll stick with what I have...although I'm leaning more and more into the HK camp..
I'm an armorer for Sig, Glock and H&K, so I'm framiliar with the internals of those three very well.
Sig has been having issues over the last few years, so I wouldn't go there. P250 has giant issues by itself. They are well made guns, but I think quality control has taken a vacation as of late. Plenty of other threads deal with those issues.
Glock, well made and dependable and accurate. Customer service is great. The only issues I have with Glock are the bore /grip angle and the trigger safety. I would remove that safety as an accidental strike of the trigger defeets the safety any way. There are plenty of threads along those lines also. I'd put in a comfortable solid trigger and be done with it.
Another issue with it is Glock is so easy to work on, that everybody and his brother get into them and do dangerous things to them. Then call themselves an armorer. I spend a fair amount of time correcting those efforts as does THE GLOCK MOTHER SHIP.
The H&K. The biggest issue I have is the microscopic mag releases on some of those models. and the ability to get parts. It seems that H&K are the last parts the aftermarket world goes after.
After all this typing it boils down to my carry guns are the HK45C with the full size mags OR the P2000SK in 357Sig with the P2000 mags and a Colt Mustang as a pocket back up.
Just my opinion.
All calibers? Well, I guess there are other handguns that may have a better reputation in certain calibers. But that either means having a bunch of different pistols with different manual of arms/triggers/safeties/shooting characteristics or a single platform that I don't like as much as Glock. And there's still a strong argument for going all Glock for "all calibers". For instance there may be other handguns in .40 or .357 SIG that might be "better" but Glocks are still good handguns in those calibers as well. And I really like the G21SF and G20SF (How many platforms offer a good 10mm like Glock?). So going all Glock in "all calibers" still seems like a pretty good way to go. All in all the 9mm Glocks is the clincher and Glocks in "all other calibers" would give me plenty of variety (in terms of autoloaders) and keep things as simple as possible.
That is exactly what I was talking about with other calibers. The G21 has had a host of problems, some catastrophic. You can do a search on them. Frankly, they are not very good IMO and are nothing more than a bloated G17. Even if they were any good, you have to be able to palm a basketball to hold one. 10mm Glock? No way. Come to think of it, .357 SIG, 45 GAP, 10mm, are kinda bastard rounds. Nothing wrong with them, but not many use them, so offering those calibers from any maker is kinda moot. 9mm, .40, and .45 rule the day for the vast majority of most users, and in .40 and .45, the M&P is far superior to Glock.
The other issue that has come up is accuracy issues with the M&P 9mm. I have owned about 9 so far and never had an issue, and they were at least as accurate as any Glock or HK I have shot.
I will also say, IMO, the M&P is superior to the HK, particularly when price is a consideration. I know all the commandos are gonna come back with "price is not a consideration when it come to my life" diatribe, but let's be real. HK is overpriced, period. They make fine handguns, but I don't see anything offered that would sway me to get one, especially at a 30% to 40% price increase over M&P or Glock.
The Glock 9mm series are great guns, I used them for 20+ years and would still use one if the M&P wasn't available - but it is.
I'm curious, what is it about the G19 that gives it the edge over the M&P in most people's eyes? Is it just what most are comfortable with? The track record? The trigger?
I've owned both, a 4th gen G19 and a M&P 9, and the Smith just worked better for me mainly due to it's superior ergos.
Admittedly, had I bought a G19 first (and perhaps if I had larger hands), I may not have tried the M&P. Not because the Glock is better but because it is still very very good and works for most people.
Did I answer my own question?For me, it's a combination of things. First is size efficiency - the G19 is just small enough that I can easily conceal it under the lightest covering garments even in the heat/humidity of Tampa with little effort. The M&P is just "bigger" enough that I can't. The M&Pc is small enough, but gives up a lot of capacity and barrel length to get that way. If S&W would make a M&Pm(idsize) that mirrored the G19's dimensions, it would, I submit, sell like hotcakes in hot weather climates.
Second is the trigger. The newest versions have triggers that are just as nice or better than the Glock right through the trigger break, but the reset is still undetectable. I know, Apex can fix that, but, I don't want to buy a lower-priced duty gun then have to sink 25+% of its cost into "upgrades" to make it equivalent to the trigger on the Glock - which costs the same as the base M&P.
Lastly, for me, is the grip. Yes, the Glock grip angle is unusual, but that can be remedied easily with the installation of a GFA. Besides that, the Glock grip is OK by me, even without the GFA. The M&P grip, on the other hand, I simply can't make "fit" me. I tried the smallest insert, and the gun felt too flat. The large insert feels like someone's stuffing a golf ball into my shooting hand, and the medium grip just feels "wrong." Are these TOTALLY subjective opinions - you betcha! Do they influence my decision on what to carry? Heck yes!
Having said all that, if S&W would market the M&Pm (maybe I should TM that name and get a royalty when S&W finally figures it out!) with Apex-like internals that kept the current stock trigger pull but fixed the reset, I'd give them a serious run, just because I'm a huge fan of S&W, and know that their customer service is the best on the market.
Regards,
Kevin
just skimmed through the thread.. but i dont think anybody's posted this. it's sort of convention. anyone feel free to disagree...
9mm - glock
40 - M&P
45 - H&K
these guys do these calibers better than anyone else on the planet. buy accordingly, and your odds of having problems are so low they might as well be 0.
Dinosaur input here.
Nothing wrong with being a dinosaur, as long as you're the carnivorous sort. :cool:
just skimmed through the thread.. but i dont think anybody's posted this. it's sort of convention. anyone feel free to disagree...
9mm - glock
40 - M&P
45 - H&K
these guys do these calibers better than anyone else on the planet. buy accordingly, and your odds of having problems are so low they might as well be 0.
I agree, the only area I may be tempted to diviate would be a .40 G22 (no G23).
I agree, the only area I may be tempted to diviate would be a .40 G22 (no G23).
Gen 4 or Gen 3?
IIRC the Gen 3 had problems when lights were mounted.
As for S&W and the M&P .40 S&W.
Who would've thought they designed a gun that worked really well with the caliber they designed. ;)
Beat Trash
01-21-11, 11:17
M&P in any caliber.
If sticking to 9mm, then Glock would be a close second choice.
Gen 4 or Gen 3?
IIRC the Gen 3 had problems when lights were mounted.
As for S&W and the M&P .40 S&W.
Who would've thought they designed a gun that worked really well with the caliber they designed. ;)
Good question, I'm mainly interested in 9mm, so I am still shying away from the Gen4 G17. If I were interested in a .40 I would have to dig deeper into the Gen4 G22.
poirierpro
01-21-11, 11:55
Last spring, I started out taking some defensive carbine,and pistol classes, At the first class, I was using a HK P-2000 with a light LEM..I did horribly with it. I then switched to my other 9mm pistol a M&P, and finished the classes with that. I shot it well.Back in Nov. I decided to give the HK another shot, applying what I'd picked up during the classes, (lots of dry firing practice, grip adjustment, switching backstraps, etc) I'm finding out it's very accurate, and the LEM trigger is really a good set up once you get on to it. Lately, the HK goes to the range while the M&P stays home, The only complaint I have with the P-2000 is, Heine dosen't make straight 8's for it. The only complaints I have with the M&P9 is, it's still evolving,and frankly, I've reached the point where I'm not sinking anymore money into improving it. The HK for example, dosen't need anything,(except some Heinie's) The M&P, I've installed Apex DCAEK, RAM,had Apex install a Mass. sear spring because I had a "dead trigger", had Heinie straight 8's installed, and now I've been reading about the accuracy issues with the 9's, because of the oddball twist S&W uses, and the fact the barrel unlocks too soon, Leading me to believe the next big "fix" on the horizon, is of course, a new barrel. MY midsize .45 on the other hand, is very accurate, (S&W got this one right)Mine (M&P9) seems to be one of those whose accuracy is OK,(not quite as good as the HK, but not bad either) At this point I have to ask myself if it's worth it..With what I paid for the M&P, and all the upgrades, I could have almost bought a P-30.. Now don't get me wrong, I still like the M&P, It's just not quite ready for prime-time, yet, And S&W could benefit from trying to improve it, rather than waste money developing their new "hillbilly handgun" that 410/45 thing...So to answer the orginial question, for now, I'll stick with what I have...although I'm leaning more and more into the HK camp..
I infact have read other threads regarding the M&P 9mm accuracy issues. Does anyone have any form of evidence that would clarify this issue once and for all? Why are there no M&P accuracy "problems" in larger calibers?
I infact have read other threads regarding the M&P 9mm accuracy issues. Does anyone have any form of evidence that would clarify this issue once and for all? Why are there no M&P accuracy "problems" in larger calibers?
Anyone 'benched' the M&P9 and shot for groups yet? I'm curious about this as well.
I've been hard core Glock for about 17 years now,and if starting over that's where I would start again. The only other handguns I own are my classic S&W revolvers from when they made them right and an S&W Mod 539.
I think the M&P's are an excellant choice but at my advanced age and being heavily invested I'm not changing. Sold my last 1911 last year. I want something proven,low maintenance ,and that can take a lickin'. Glocks have proved themselves to me over and over.
I infact have read other threads regarding the M&P 9mm accuracy issues. Does anyone have any form of evidence that would clarify this issue once and for all? Why are there no M&P accuracy "problems" in larger calibers?
Larger calibers =different twists, There was a thread about accuracy issues with the M&P, and Apex was looking at it,From what Randy said he thinks the barrel/slide dosen't have enough dwell time, as the barrel starts to unlock almost immediately upon firing, basically the bullet is still in the barrel when it starts to unlock from the slide, that and the odd twist rate, don't help things..In that same thread he mentioned a glock in which he fitted a barrel to, I forget exactly how accurate he said it was, but it was stunning, point being, if the barrel on a M&P was fit up a little better (longer dwell time, possible different twist rate) accuracy could very well be improved.
That is exactly what I was talking about with other calibers. The G21 has had a host of problems, some catastrophic. You can do a search on them. Frankly, they are not very good IMO and are nothing more than a bloated G17. Even if they were any good, you have to be able to palm a basketball to hold one. 10mm Glock? No way. Come to think of it, .357 SIG, 45 GAP, 10mm, are kinda bastard rounds. Nothing wrong with them, but not many use them, so offering those calibers from any maker is kinda moot. 9mm, .40, and .45 rule the day for the vast majority of most users, and in .40 and .45, the M&P is far superior to Glock.
The other issue that has come up is accuracy issues with the M&P 9mm. I have owned about 9 so far and never had an issue, and they were at least as accurate as any Glock or HK I have shot.
I will also say, IMO, the M&P is superior to the HK, particularly when price is a consideration. I know all the commandos are gonna come back with "price is not a consideration when it come to my life" diatribe, but let's be real. HK is overpriced, period. They make fine handguns, but I don't see anything offered that would sway me to get one, especially at a 30% to 40% price increase over M&P or Glock.
The Glock 9mm series are great guns, I used them for 20+ years and would still use one if the M&P wasn't available - but it is.
I believe Glock has addressed the past issues with the G21 with their recent manufact. G21SF and G21's. The M&P has also evolved through their issues as well and no doubt they'll continue to make little improvements here and there through all their models. OTOH, 3rd Gen 9mm Glocks seems to be about as good as they can make them. I'll also take any Gen3 Glock stock trigger to any stock M&P esp. the M&P .45. Yeah, there are aftermarket triggers kits for the M&P but that's another strike against the M&P in terms of simplicity and the chances of being able to take care of any potential issues myself.
Regardless, going back to my initial post in this thread.... if I didn't feel confident with 9mm why bother with the cartridge at all? From what I've gleaned from DocGKR a little more velocity here a little more diameter there isn't gonna make much of a difference, all things considered. But being able to make fast accurate hits under stress in a variety of situations (shooting weak hand for instance) is something that is not emphasized enough. With the vast majority of shooters the 9mm is king of service calibers in that regard. So since I feel that way why even bother with other service calibers? And in 9mm I far prefer Glock.
As far as H&K's their triggers and weapons characteristics make them very different guns from Glocks and M&P's so I dont' usually compare them together.
Caliber isn't everything. Platform isn't everything. The decision should be a combination of finding a happy medium. Happily for me with 9mm Glocks, I have a caliber and platform that I dont' consider a compromise or a happy medium. But an optimal one. BTW, I do own an M&P9 as well and I like it well enough that I'm keeping it. For you the M&P might be optimal depending on your perceived requirements. But please don't assume just because someone prefers either Glock or M&P everyone else should too.
I don't know that Glock has 'fixed' the problems with the 21. It is partially a problem due to growing the platform to handle a .45 versus a 9mm as designed. It just doesn't transition well. The Glock .45 doesn't have a fully supported chamber while the M&P does.
The only real issue M&P had outside of a couple of spring issues was gritty triggers. Most current examples have addressed that to some degree. Some may want a bit more with the Apex parts, personal choice. Bottom line is none of them are going to have the trigger of a nice 1911. And your argument "there are aftermarket triggers kits for the M&P but that that's another strike against the M&P in terms of simplicity and most people being able to take care of any potential issues themselves" doesn't hold water because the vast majority of people are not going to be doing their own trigger jobs on their firearms anyway. Yet, with the Apex parts and the M&P you can!
Caliber/velocity are debatable, but one poster made the claim that Glock offered so many caliber options as the reason to own one, I responded to it.
I love 9mm, primarily because of the capacity you can carry. I also love .45, and while I agree with DocGKR about shot placement (common sense) being paramount, I disagree that the 9mm is equal to the .45 ACP as an incapcitating round.
So the net result is if you like your Glock 9mm and it works, good vibes. I would carry a 19 today if the M&P wasn't available. To me, it is the better mousetrap.
Fire_Medic
01-21-11, 18:13
Actually no, Glock has not done it well. Glock has a well documented history of problems with .45ACP, .40 S&W, and forget 10MM. Glock was designed as a 9mm and has not transitioned well to larger calibers and higher pressure rounds. Why do Gen 4's have multiple recoil springs?
M&P on the other hand was designed around the 40 S&W and has transitioned to other rounds with great success. Not to mention, the M&P is ambidextrous, has grip inserts that actually make a difference, loaded chamber indicator, stainless steel chassis molded into the frame, better sights from the factory, thumb safety if desired, front cocking serrations. Glock has none of the aforementioned traits.
I think the reason that so many Glock users stick with them is because they have been around for some time now and are good pistols - in 9mm. I believe if many loyal Glock shooters tried an M&P, it would make a believer out of them.
So the 9mm M&P issues mean nothing then right, lol.
What were the issues with 45's and 10mm's please, because the large frames were designed for the 10MM and handle the 45 like a walk in the park.
I like both platforms, but please stop the rumor mill.
The 40's had issues for a while in the beginnings of the Gen 3's with lights, those issue have long faded away.
The M&P .45's I've tried had gritty triggers. My stock M&P9 OTOH has a very vague feel throughout and a very vague reset. Squishy is the best way to describe it and makes my 3rd Gen Glock triggers feel almost "crisp" in comparison if that's even possible. But even with the stock M&P trigger a good trigger press will always win the day.
I like the fact my 3rd Gen Glocks are GTG out of the box. Admittedly I've never detail stripped my M&P but as I understand it its more involved than a simple punch. Most people don't know how or bother to detail strip their Glocks and its stupid easy. Less chance of that happening with people who own an M&P. People who bother to spend the extra money and put in the time and effort to put an Apex trigger on their M&P is a small minority of M&P enthusiasts like yourself and will likely remain so.
And yes, Glock 21 and Glock 20 have proven to be the some of the most reliable and durable .45 and 10mm guns on the market. I'm not saying there haven't been issues but the vast majority of them run well even back to the 2nd Gen versions.
WHAT KIND OF GUN WOULD YOU PICK? Lol you shouldnt even have to start a thread to ask this question...people shoot glocks and M&P's, Im not bein a smartass at all. That is ALL people shoot nowadays! lol
Code3Patriot
01-21-11, 19:37
I don't know that Glock has 'fixed' the problems with the 21. It is partially a problem due to growing the platform to handle a .45 versus a 9mm as designed. It just doesn't transition well. The Glock .45 doesn't have a fully supported chamber while the M&P does.
It should be interesting to see if the soon to be released Gen4 G21 corrects any of the issues people seem to have with it. I'm thinking the new RSA and improved feel of the Gen4 frame will make people think twice before immediately choosing the M&P for .45.
gtmtnbiker98
01-21-11, 19:46
WHAT KIND OF GUN WOULD YOU PICK? Lol you shouldnt even have to start a thread to ask this question...people shoot glocks and M&P's, Im not bein a smartass at all. That is ALL people shoot nowadays! lolNot quite. I haven't shot a Glock or M&P for two years.
WHAT KIND OF GUN WOULD YOU PICK? Lol you shouldnt even have to start a thread to ask this question...people shoot glocks and M&P's, Im not bein a smartass at all. That is ALL people shoot nowadays! lol
People shoot what works. Glocks have been the most reliable polymer striker-fired for years and now the M&P has joined that boat. There are many other good options out there like the Walther P99 but Glocks and M&Ps have proven themselves quite extensively.
titsonritz
01-21-11, 20:16
3rd Gen Glock 19
In 9mm or 357 SIG - Glock
Unless H&K comes out with a striker fired P30, then I'd be all over it.
I've had excellent luck with Glock. They're proven, avaliable, affordable, light and rugged.
That is exactly what I was talking about with other calibers. The G21 has had a host of problems, some catastrophic. You can do a search on them. Frankly, they are not very good IMO and are nothing more than a bloated G17. Even if they were any good, you have to be able to palm a basketball to hold one. 10mm Glock? No way. Come to think of it, .357 SIG, 45 GAP, 10mm, are kinda bastard rounds. Nothing wrong with them, but not many use them, so offering those calibers from any maker is kinda moot. 9mm, .40, and .45 rule the day for the vast majority of most users, and in .40 and .45, the M&P is far superior to Glock.
The other issue that has come up is accuracy issues with the M&P 9mm. I have owned about 9 so far and never had an issue, and they were at least as accurate as any Glock or HK I have shot.
I will also say, IMO, the M&P is superior to the HK, particularly when price is a consideration. I know all the commandos are gonna come back with "price is not a consideration when it come to my life" diatribe, but let's be real. HK is overpriced, period. They make fine handguns, but I don't see anything offered that would sway me to get one, especially at a 30% to 40% price increase over M&P or Glock.
The Glock 9mm series are great guns, I used them for 20+ years and would still use one if the M&P wasn't available - but it is.
I respect your opinion and agree with some things you state.
The Glock is tough to beat...period. I recently purchased a M&P 9 and really like the ergos and it has been 100% reliable for 1k rounds. The stock trigger does take some getting used to.
I have owned H&K's and they make a great weapon, just a little pricey for plastic.
My agency has used the Glock 21 since about 1993. The Gen 2 Glock 21's had some issues with chipped extractors, but they still worked with the chipped extractor. Other than that, they have not caused us any problems. I really don't like the giant grip and silly pointing angle but I do shoot this gun just fine.
I trust my life everyday with my current Gen 3 Glock 21. The thing has taken an absolute beating and just keeps on working. I shoot over 1k rounds per year in qualifications and have not had any issues.
Talking with our range guys, they see the same reliability. They report rare instances where the gun needs attention, very rare. Most issues encountered are related to the magazines.
I have and love my Austrian proofed 3rd gen 19. Do I wish it was the shorter frame and better texture of the 4th gen? Every time I look at it, but it's nifty so I'm not going to chop it up or melt it down.
I have an M&P9 that has failed exactly once in over 2k rounds. I was shooting PMC ammo and the case ejected but was noticeably weaker in recoil than the all others and the slide didn't fully travel to the rear to pick up the next round. I was also experimenting with extremely high thumb holds at the time and noticed my thumb was riding the slide. Who knows if it was me or the ammo that caused it. Anyway, I won the Top Gun award in my police academy for qualifying as the top shooter with that gun, so it's never going to leave me.
I have some Colt 1911s and I love them, and one is a Delta Elite. For a woods gun I would like to have a Glock 20 so I can beat it up and not care.
Other than that my wishlist is pretty much all HK. I want an HK45 and HK45c with LEM triggers. I'm a big revolver shooter and hearing people disdainfully refer to an HK45 with the LEM trigger as a high capacity revolver makes me drool. I would like a midsize M&P 45, too. I'm a big .45 ACP shooter but I reload it so it's OK. That's how I can afford to shoot my .357 revolvers, 10MM, .45 ACP and .380 ACP pistols.
So the 9mm M&P issues mean nothing then right, lol.
Did you even read my post directly above yours?
What were the issues with 45's and 10mm's please, because the large frames were designed for the 10MM and handle the 45 like a walk in the park.
You have a computer, you look for it. It won't be hard to find. On top of that you are absolutely incorrect about the 20 and 21. The Glock 17 was stretched, pulled, enlarged, and expanded to accommodate the larger calibers. It is a fact, and it is also a fact that there have been ongoing problems with them. It is a design issue. The gun was not designed to handle those loads and has not transitioned well to them.
In the interest of getting you squared away, here is a link from this very forum:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=11699
From the thread quoting DocGKR:
There are many G21's that function well. The problem, as LAPD, SCPD, and other agencies have found, is that unlike the G17, when looked at in aggregate a significant number of G21's do NOT work perfectly.
Mr. Vickers is widely acknowledged as one of the best pistolsmiths currently working, as well as the only member of the American Pistolsmith's Guild to concurrently serve on active duty in the U.S. military. Mr. Vickers served in numerous SOF assignments, including Combat Development, as well as having worked as a consultant in the firearms industry. Mr. Vickers has had a hand in the genesis of several SOF combat systems. He may have more experience with the technical aspects of pistols used in combat environments than just about anyone else on earth, as the organization he served with shot in excess of one million rounds of .45 ACP per year, as well as significant amounts of 9 mm ammunition. Some individuals may be unaware that Mr. Vickers was a key person responsible for getting Glocks accepted into use by U.S. SOF personnel. Mr. Vickers clearly understands and acknowledges the benefits and limitations of each small arm, including M1911’s, Glocks, HK’s, M9’s, P226’s, etc… All the statements I have seen Mr. Vickers make have been unbiased and based on extensive, hard won experience. In short, regarding this topic you can take what he says to the bank… His public comments regarding Glocks are right on target: "The 9 mm Glocks (G17/19) are the best, the .40 S&W ones (G22/G23) blow-up, and the full size .45 (G21) breaks; the Glock 21 is a dog and always has been. It has the reputation as the worst gun Glock makes”.
I would love it if the G21 was profoundly robust and reliable—-what is there not to like? Unfortunately, it is not. Based on my personal experiences, as well as what I have observed, a stock Glock 17 would be my first out of the box choice for a rugged hard use pistol. Weapons are tools; the minute a better pistol is identified, I’ll be recommending that one. Folks wanting a non-1911 .45 ACP pistol are probably best served by a M&P or HK45, not a G21 or Sig P220.
The bottom line is that G21's have consistently demonstrated too many problems to be considered a hard use combat pistol. Personally, I love Glocks, but only in 9 mm… “
This was PRIOR to the M&P coming into its own.
I like both platforms, but please stop the rumor mill.
The 40's had issues for a while in the beginnings of the Gen 3's with lights, those issue have long faded away.
Perhaps you can tell Mr. Vickers, DocGKR, as well as all LE agencies that know, to "stop the rumor mill".
WHAT KIND OF GUN WOULD YOU PICK? Lol you shouldnt even have to start a thread to ask this question...people shoot glocks and M&P's, Im not bein a smartass at all. That is ALL people shoot nowadays! lol
I don't shoot M&P's, and probably never will. I also sold my last 2 Glocks about a month and a half ago.
Did you even read my post directly above yours?
You have a computer, you look for it. It won't be hard to find. On top of that you are absolutely incorrect about the 20 and 21. The Glock 17 was stretched, pulled, enlarged, and expanded to accommodate the larger calibers. It is a fact, and it is also a fact that there have been ongoing problems with them. It is a design issue. The gun was not designed to handle those loads and has not transitioned well to them.
In the interest of getting you squared away, here is a link from this very forum:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=11699
From the thread quoting DocGKR:
There are many G21's that function well. The problem, as LAPD, SCPD, and other agencies have found, is that unlike the G17, when looked at in aggregate a significant number of G21's do NOT work perfectly.
Mr. Vickers is widely acknowledged as one of the best pistolsmiths currently working, as well as the only member of the American Pistolsmith's Guild to concurrently serve on active duty in the U.S. military. Mr. Vickers served in numerous SOF assignments, including Combat Development, as well as having worked as a consultant in the firearms industry. Mr. Vickers has had a hand in the genesis of several SOF combat systems. He may have more experience with the technical aspects of pistols used in combat environments than just about anyone else on earth, as the organization he served with shot in excess of one million rounds of .45 ACP per year, as well as significant amounts of 9 mm ammunition. Some individuals may be unaware that Mr. Vickers was a key person responsible for getting Glocks accepted into use by U.S. SOF personnel. Mr. Vickers clearly understands and acknowledges the benefits and limitations of each small arm, including M1911’s, Glocks, HK’s, M9’s, P226’s, etc… All the statements I have seen Mr. Vickers make have been unbiased and based on extensive, hard won experience. In short, regarding this topic you can take what he says to the bank… His public comments regarding Glocks are right on target: "The 9 mm Glocks (G17/19) are the best, the .40 S&W ones (G22/G23) blow-up, and the full size .45 (G21) breaks; the Glock 21 is a dog and always has been. It has the reputation as the worst gun Glock makes”.
I would love it if the G21 was profoundly robust and reliable—-what is there not to like? Unfortunately, it is not. Based on my personal experiences, as well as what I have observed, a stock Glock 17 would be my first out of the box choice for a rugged hard use pistol. Weapons are tools; the minute a better pistol is identified, I’ll be recommending that one. Folks wanting a non-1911 .45 ACP pistol are probably best served by a M&P or HK45, not a G21 or Sig P220.
The bottom line is that G21's have consistently demonstrated too many problems to be considered a hard use combat pistol. Personally, I love Glocks, but only in 9 mm… “
This was PRIOR to the M&P coming into its own.
Perhaps you can tell Mr. Vickers, DocGKR, as well as all LE agencies that know, to "stop the rumor mill".
Ok Coleslaw you like M&P's.. WE get it.... I have seen so many of your posts against glocks that I felt like makeing this comment.. yeah big deal, I know Im a nobody but Sheesh get over it..
Not all of us need to throw our non-9mm glocks under steam rollers,Freeze them, bury them for two years, roll them in a concrete tumbler, bury them in a sand box, throw them out of an airplane, run over them 100 times with a truck, pack them full of playdoe , then without cleaning them expect them to function 15k rnds without a failure.. If you need that in a pistol, then i,m sorry you live in such a hostile environment...
I read the LV reports and they are GREAT but cmone.. Most of us can get real and clean/inspect our pistols every few hundred rnds if we need them to function for SD, soldiers included..
Your comments, lead me to believe that non 9mm glocks just plain suck.. Seriously! I dont think glock made it to where they are cause everything else they make sucks. lately with the Gen4's though, ya maybe a little.. lol
Then you get a report like this one..
http://theprepared.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=90&Itemid=40
I don't shoot M&P's, and probably never will. I also sold my last 2 Glocks about a month and a half ago.
Lol nice...so that leaves me and you both...My daily carry is an XD.40 I have a few others. I used to carry a 24/7. I really liked that one
John_Wayne777
01-22-11, 00:38
Gentlemen:
Let's keep the discussion civil and professional, please.
no platform is 100%. just as some will swear by one, others will swear at it. if possible, try a few to find what works for you, develop proficiency, maintain it, and when the time comes, if you need it, that it serves you well.
i do not go into harms way but i have interacted with a few people that have. polymer guns that get the nod are hk's in .45 and 9mm and glocks in 9mm. a few have used glocks in .45. some of them have a choice, others have to use what is issued.
but, this is the internet so the usual forum disclaimers apply; IIRC, IANAL, YMMV, etc.
posted by some guy sitting at a computer 0233EST 01-22-2011.
Gentlemen:
Let's keep the discussion civil and professional, please.
Sorry, My apologies..
Ok Coleslaw you like M&P's.. WE get it.... I have seen so many of your posts against glocks that I felt like makeing this comment.. yeah big deal, I know Im a nobody but Sheesh get over it..
I believe if you review the thread, you will see in all my posts I never said I didn't like Glocks as a whole.:confused: In fact, I have said the opposite numerous times. I will say it again, I do like Glocks, but only the 9mm versions. I even stated I have been using them since the 80's, and wouldn't be disappointed to do so to this day. At this point in time though, I like the M&P series and have found it superior - to me - on several fronts. My .02.
RogerinTPA
01-22-11, 09:07
Lol nice...so that leaves me and you both...My daily carry is an XD.40 I have a few others. I used to carry a 24/7. I really liked that one
Wow, hope you're not recommending that.:bad:
gtmtnbiker98
01-22-11, 09:30
Lol nice...so that leaves me and you both...My daily carry is an XD.40 I have a few others. I used to carry a 24/7. I really liked that one
I hope you aren't serious and making a joke. Right?
Im not joking at all...and i wasnt recommending anything at all. I like my XD alot. It works for me. Im good with it, I practice WEEKLY with it. The Taurus was a fun pistol. I didnt go to war with it. Im not saying you guys in particular, but alot of people were so disgusted that they wouldnt even hold one, NEVER have shot one. You hated brussel sprouts when you were a kid, till your mom made you try them...then you kinda liked em right? LOL. Please know my intentions before everyone starts freaking out.:cool:
Eddiesketti
01-22-11, 12:30
I enjoy the USP 45 that I have. My bud likes the 40 cal Glocks. To each his own.
John_Wayne777
01-22-11, 13:52
You hated brussel sprouts when you were a kid, till your mom made you try them...then you kinda liked em right?
No, they were green balls of concentrated evil then, and they are still green balls of concentrated evil now.
Taurus has worked very hard over the years to build a reputation for putting out unreliable firearms backed by inferior customer service. They deserve their status as being slightly better than a sharp stick.
poirierpro
01-22-11, 13:54
Regarding "accuracy issues" with the M&P9...can anyone tell me:
1. At what distance? Is it good at 25-40ft and bad at 100ft?
2. Compact or fullsize?
Regarding "accuracy issues" with the M&P9...can anyone tell me:
1. At what distance? Is it good at 25-40ft and bad at 100ft?
2. Compact or fullsize?
1. It's probably more accurate than you are at any of those distances.
2. Pogo sticks or ice cream? In other words, what's your intended application for it?
poirierpro
01-22-11, 14:20
1. It's probably more accurate than you are at any of those distances.
2. Pogo sticks or ice cream? In other words, what's your intended application for it?
CCW...fun shoots
HK. The guns work well in 9mm, .40 and .45. Glock is very durable in 9mm and I liked the 21sf I shot, but there are too many reported incidents of problems with the 21 to make me feel comfortable with it. HK USPs are ugly, at least I think they are, and hard to conceal, but run really well and are accurate. If I were buying new poly pisols, I would try the P2000, P30, HK45 and 45 compact before I decided.
Have you looked at the two tone USPs? Plus I have np carrying my USPc SS 40.
CCW...fun shoots
I carry a full-size M&P40 every day, IWB or OWB depending on activities and attire. I have zero problems with this setup and feel that it's more enjoyable to shoot for fun than the Compact version. YMMV.
No, they were green balls of concentrated evil then, and they are still green balls of concentrated evil now.
Taurus has worked very hard over the years to build a reputation for putting out unreliable firearms backed by inferior customer service. They deserve their status as being slightly better than a sharp stick.
Youre right...i agree with you 100%. Taurus has a notoriously bad reputation,however, I didnt get one of the lemon pistols, and i never had not ONE problem with it...ever. It was realiable, it shoots clean, it shoots dirty, the grip is amazing. It was just an all around fun pistol to shoot. I didnt want anyone taking what i said the wrong way, i wasnt endorsing Taurus by any means...i liked mine. lol Try the brussel sprouts with butter...you might like them :haha:
John_Wayne777
01-22-11, 15:02
Regarding "accuracy issues" with the M&P9...can anyone tell me:
1. At what distance? Is it good at 25-40ft and bad at 100ft?
2. Compact or fullsize?
The accuracy issues are only an issue on some M&P 9's. Every mass produced finished product in the world is made up of parts. The tolerances used in the production of the parts impacts the finished product's performance. The tolerances used on products can vary widely from being so stringent that the devices used to take measurements cost a sultan's ransom because of how precise they are to a crosseyed inbred hillbilly on a production line eyeballing it and declaring it "good enough!"
Randy Lee has explained the variations in tolerances he's seen with M&P's in the past in regards to failures to reset...and while I'm not an engineer I am willing to bet that the M&P's that have accuracy issues are probably the result of some of the tolerance stack that can show up in other aspects of the pistol's production. Tolerance stack is a phenomenon where several individual parts may be within an accepted spec (or only slightly outside the spec) but when combined together on the same gun may produce severe problems that are not easily corrected.
Now when you add the phenomenon of tolerance stack to a pistol that by design has a very quick unlock time (which contributes to the positive shooting characteristics of the M&P) then the end result will be a certain percentage of pistols that unlock before the bullet has exited the barrel.
That the phenomenon exists is beyond question. The real question is what are the odds that the average M&P you pick up off the dealer's shelf is going to be afflicted with the problem. In my estimation the odds of experiencing it are fairly low. I am by no means the world's foremost M&P expert and I remain open to hearing otherwise from those who have more experience/better information than I have. That being said, the best read I can get on the problem is that it happens to a relatively small percentage of pistols.
As for your questions:
1. If a weapon has problems with lockup (unlocking too early, not locking up properly, etc) the manifestations can vary from unacceptably large groups (6 or more inches at 25 yards) resulting from the poor mechanical accuracy of the firearm, or in the severe cases of the premature unlocking problem the gun can shoot consistent groups that are several feet high at 25 yards.
2. As for the differences between the compacts and the full sized guns, that's a good question. I've only ever heard of the early-unlock phenomenon on the full sized guns. The shorter barrel on the compacts might be an advantage in that the bullet has less time traveling in the barrel. That's just a guess on my part, but it would be interesting to hear from those who might know more about it.
If you get one of the majority of M&P's that does not have tolerance issues, then the accuracy is likely to range from acceptable to superb. All of my M&P's, for example, are very accurate. They are mechanically capable of accuracy I'm not skilled enough to wring out of them. I tend to shoot lighter loads exclusively (115-124 grain) and every now and then when I do everything just right on the sights and the trigger I'm rewarded with very tiny groups at 25 yards. My most accurate M&P with the right ammo is almost as accurate as my P30.
I would have to say HK. I've never had a problem with any of them and they are a dream come true for people who don't like to clean their guns.
Quiet-Matt
01-22-11, 15:17
I choose Glock because I have never had an issue other than crappy ammo, and for the abundance of replacement factory and aftermarket parts.
Fire_Medic
01-23-11, 09:54
.....
Every platform has issues, none of them are perfect. Glock 17 and 19 are bomb proof. I had a 19, great pistol. I like Sig in 9mm better. To me, it's more accurate, but that's a personal preference. Glock has had problems with the 21, not just Ambi mag release on the 21sf, but other problems as well. Portland and LAPD also had problems with the 21 and you've seen the Vickers test. The M&P has had problems with dead triggers. Also, I shot the 9mm version and thought accuracy was questionable at best, yet John Wayne 777 says his is a tack driver. The M&P 45 I shot had a horrible trigger, but was extremely accurate. My point is that each platform has its own set of merits and its own set of drawbacks.
Personally, I like Sig P22X series in 9mm. I like 1911 for a 45. If I had to choose polymer across the board, meaning I can only have one brand and will have to use a 9mm, .40 and .45 acp sometime along the way, I would choose HK. But that's me. Often, it comes down to personal preference, what you're most comfortable with and what works best for you.
I would love to try out the MP line but living in NY I am stuck with the glocks
GermanSynergy
01-23-11, 11:36
You can't own M&P's in NY state?
I would love to try out the MP line but living in NY I am stuck with the glocks
You can't own M&P's in NY state?
ohh no we can get them but they would have to come with birthcontrol mags. Plus I do like the glocks I just would like to try out what I see maybe an improved glock of sorts.
We have AWB and before we get into the you got to move you like in commie state thing at least we can own prebans and there could be worst places to live as I see it
Fire_Medic
01-23-11, 12:48
.....
I ended up shooting about 250 rounds each through the Glock 19/17 and a M&P FS 9mm. I ended up picking the M&P. Nothing against the Glock 9mm platform mind you. I have quite a bit of respect for the Glock. I might even go so far to say that if it were not for the Glock and its enviable reputation, we would not have the M&P and its ilk.
I agree with some of the other posters. The Apex sear and trigger kit should be on your list of purchases. They take a fair trigger and make it almost heavenly. My 1911 has been gathering alot of dust, that's how good it is.
I would also recommend stippling the back strap. After some hard use, I felt like I did not have enough purchase on the grip. I used a soldering iron tip and textured the back strap that fit my hand best. It has really improved my confidence when holding the weapon, while still allowing me to adjust my grip if need be.
Glock would be my choice. I recently bought a Glock after owning XDs, M&Ps, and FN. I could have saved a boat load of money by skipping them & going straight to Glocks.
I ended up shooting about 250 rounds each through the Glock 19/17 and a M&P FS 9mm. I ended up picking the M&P. Nothing against the Glock 9mm platform mind you. I have quite a bit of respect for the Glock. I might even go so far to say that if it were not for the Glock and its enviable reputation, we would not have the M&P and its ilk.
I agree with some of the other posters. The Apex sear and trigger kit should be on your list of purchases. They take a fair trigger and make it almost heavenly. My 1911 has been gathering alot of dust, that's how good it is.
I would also recommend stippling the back strap. After some hard use, I felt like I did not have enough purchase on the grip. I used a soldering iron tip and textured the back strap that fit my hand best. It has really improved my confidence when holding the weapon, while still allowing me to adjust my grip if need be.
Great looking pistol I like them alot. Now that I been rethinking this I may have to get one anyway
M&P gets my vote ... I went from an XDm to Glocks initially but found the ergonomics much better on the M&P. The Apex upgrades really make it nice too!
I must admit I also like the P30L but the safety and decocker as two separate controls were less than thrilling - I'd much prefer the 3-position lever like the HK45 has... The P30 and all HK's seem pricey too IMO.
M&P gets my vote ... I went from an XDm to Glocks initially but found the ergonomics much better on the M&P. The Apex upgrades really make it nice too!
I must admit I also like the P30L but the safety and decocker as two separate controls were less than thrilling - I'd much prefer the 3-position lever like the HK45 has... The P30 and all HK's seem pricey too IMO.
You could also look at a P-30 LEM..a much better option..Price wise, I hear that all the time,In my case, by the time I had switched sights, added Apex DECAK, LEM,had Mass. sear spring installed, my M&P cost $727..and that dosen't figure in sales tax on the pistol,or sights.(both were bought locally) total cost for MY M&P is not that far from HK's. At least with my P-2000, all I've done to it is change 2 springs,($15) to get a "Light" LEM,nothing else was needed,It cost $750 NIB. Go look at what Tood Green has done with HK's and you'll understand why they have a following..
You could also look at a P-30 LEM..a much better option..
I know I will most likely eventually talk myself into one ;-) The grip is as close to perfect as I can imagine...
,In my case, by the time I had switched sights, added Apex DECAK, LEM,had Mass. sear spring installed, my M&P cost $727..and that dosen't figure in sales tax on the pistol,or sights.(both were bought locally) total cost for MY M&P is not that far from HK's.
Wow, where do you shop? Also, why did you think it was necessary to do all those "improvements" to your M&P? Was it an older model?
Current MSRP on S&W's site is 619.00 for any size .45 M&P. H&K's current MSRP is 1237.00 for a 45/45c.
What am I missing?
poirierpro
01-23-11, 21:52
Wow, where do you shop? Also, why did you think it was necessary to do all those "improvements" to your M&P? Was it an older model?
Current MSRP on S&W's site is 619.00 for any size .45 M&P. H&K's current MSRP is 1237.00 for a 45/45c.
What am I missing?
I was thinkin the same thing...:confused:
Have you looked at the two tone USPs? Plus I have np carrying my USPc SS 40.
Hahaha. Sorry man. I was a little tired when I wrote that. I do think the USP is kind of blocky, but it wouldn't keep me from carrying one. They are fine pistols. If it sounded like I wouldn't carry one, I apologize for not being clear. To clarify, a good looking pistol is great, but isn't high on the importance list. HK USPs function well, handle well are extremely accurate and durable. Great pistols.
John_Wayne777
01-24-11, 08:00
Wow, where do you shop? Also, why did you think it was necessary to do all those "improvements" to your M&P? Was it an older model?
Current MSRP on S&W's site is 619.00 for any size .45 M&P. H&K's current MSRP is 1237.00 for a 45/45c.
What am I missing?
I think a lot of people are sucked into believing that the M&P has to have trigger work to be shootable because there's a lot of whining about trigger pull and reset on the M&P on the internet. As I've said many times in the past, that is not true. I have futzed with almost every possible trigger configuration you can get on the M&P and while I like the results one can get from tinkering with the trigger it's not necessary to be able to run the gun.
The folks at Apex are all wonderful people who make a great product...but you don't need an Apex kit in the gun to shoot it well. Some of the best shooting I've ever done has been with a bone stock M&P. I like the various custom options and what you can get out of them, but they aren't strictly necessary to get good results with the pistol.
RogerinTPA
01-24-11, 08:22
I think a lot of people are sucked into believing that the M&P has to have trigger work to be shootable because there's a lot of whining about trigger pull and reset on the M&P on the internet. As I've said many times in the past, that is not true. I have futzed with almost every possible trigger configuration you can get on the M&P and while I like the results one can get from tinkering with the trigger it's not necessary to be able to run the gun.
The folks at Apex are all wonderful people who make a great product...but you don't need an Apex kit in the gun to shoot it well. Some of the best shooting I've ever done has been with a bone stock M&P. I like the various custom options and what you can get out of them, but they aren't strictly necessary to get good results with the pistol.
Agreed. I had no real issues with the stock sears in the M&Ps, and they do smooth out with use. The Apex sears make the triggers smooth as a baby's ass and they are an excellent after market add on, but they are not necessary to make the gun run.
ColdDeadHands
01-24-11, 10:26
HK for me...I went the Glock route before but always go back to HK.
I think a lot of people are sucked into believing that the M&P has to have trigger work to be shootable because there's a lot of whining about trigger pull and reset on the M&P on the internet. As I've said many times in the past, that is not true. I have futzed with almost every possible trigger configuration you can get on the M&P and while I like the results one can get from tinkering with the trigger it's not necessary to be able to run the gun.
The folks at Apex are all wonderful people who make a great product...but you don't need an Apex kit in the gun to shoot it well. Some of the best shooting I've ever done has been with a bone stock M&P. I like the various custom options and what you can get out of them, but they aren't strictly necessary to get good results with the pistol.
As much as I find the tactile reset lacking in my M&P9 fullsize, you are absolutely correct it can be shot well from the factory. I'm living proof of it. :sarcastic:
As much as I find the tactile reset lacking in my M&P9 fullsize, you are absolutely correct it can be shot well from the factory. I'm living proof of it. :sarcastic:
Speaking of tactile reset, that is the one thing I'd like to see improved on the M&P ... that is the one (and only) thing I miss from the Glocks I used to own.
I'm happy with my Glocks but went to my local gun shop to check out the "horrible" trigger on the S&W's and left thinking they were fine, very different from what I was used to but fine.
Wow, where do you shop? Also, why did you think it was necessary to do all those "improvements" to your M&P? Was it an older model?
Current MSRP on S&W's site is 619.00 for any size .45 M&P. H&K's current MSRP is 1237.00 for a 45/45c.
What am I missing?
My M&P9 was a early 2009 pistol,and had the crunchy,lousy trigger, I have a sightly older Midsize .45 that I shot for at least 2000 rnds,before the Apex mods. sure, it smoothed out somewhat, but the crunch NEVER goes away.The .45 shoots much better than the 9 does.It got Apex parts first, It made such an improvement, that I did the same to the M&P9 when I bought it. Speaking of which let's go over the math.. When you look at the "improvements" I don't think I was out of line. I did'nt see anything wrong with better sights, trigger...
Pistol $480
Heinie straight 8's(NS) $125 installed
Apex DCAEK $89
Apex RAM $25
Install Mass. S.S. $ 7 This was needed to cure dead trigger issue.
Total $726
By the way, When I was comparing prices, I was talking 9mm pistols, NOT .45's. So, price wise, With all the goodies, the M&P's price shoots up,and it's not far from a HK 9mm pistol. But if you like the crunchy, stock trigger, and the medocire sights, Then, it'll do just fine in it's stock form. Me? I'm not putting any more money into either of them. The .45 is fine as it is now, The 9, eh, It sits in a drawer alot, I've been shooting my P-2000 alot more lately...
Speaking of which let's go over the math..
Pistol $480
Heinie straight 8's $125 installed
Apex DCAEK $89
Apex RAM $25
Install Mass. S.S. $ 7 This was needed to cure dead trigger issue.
Total $726
Hmm ... you make my numbers feel better!
M&P9 $400 via LEO friend ;)
Ameriglo's $92 installed ... ProGo front, Pro Operator rear
Apex DCAEK $75
-------------------------------
Total $567
If only I'd quit spending money looking for the perfect holster! LOL
How do you rate the APEX RAM? It wasn't available when I upgraded my compact and full-size but looks interesting! The soft reset is my only quibble with my M&Ps :-)
Hmm ... you make my numbers feel better!
M&P9 $400 via LEO friend ;)
Ameriglo's $92 installed ... ProGo front, Pro Operator rear
Apex DCAEK $75
-------------------------------
Total $567
If only I'd quit spending money looking for the perfect holster! LOL
How do you rate the APEX RAM? It wasn't available when I upgraded my compact and full-size but looks interesting! The soft reset is my only quibble with my M&Ps :-)
It's ok, It improved reset, but it's not anywhere near a Glock, Frankly,the whole reset thing is overrated, if you're shooting rapidly you'll never notice the reset (or lack of) If I had to do over, I'd probably pass.
It's ok, It improved reset, but it's not anywhere near a Glock, Frankly,the whole reset thing is overrated, if you're shooting rapidly you'll never notice the reset (or lack of) If I had to do over, I'd probably pass.
Ah, thanks... I may pass as well :-)
Wow, where do you shop? Also, why did you think it was necessary to do all those "improvements" to your M&P? Was it an older model?
Current MSRP on S&W's site is 619.00 for any size .45 M&P. H&K's current MSRP is 1237.00 for a 45/45c.
What am I missing?
No one buys at MSRP.
I bought my P30 new from a dealer for 750 OTD.
For Example from the current catalog of a well known Texas mail/phone order shop.
USP40v3 with Night Sights 479.99
USPv3 Stainless 45 799.99 / 40SW 749.99
USPExpert in 45 or 40SW 899.99
P2000v3 9mm 727.84
P30v3 9mm 780.41
HK45 FS or Compact 918.56
Used there are even better deals. A HK45C sold today on my local forum for 600 (another guy beat me to it). I just sold my HK45 for 825. The C&E gun show had a table full of USP9s for 499.00.
The HK over priced argument is over blown IMHO.
In polymer pistols I prefer fit of the HK and M&P lines.
You are correct, no one buys at MSRP. All things relative, you can buy M&P's and Glocks in the $450 to $500 range, still 40% to 50% cheaper than HK. It's either retail to retail or wholesale to wholesale, that is how it works.
So the HK overpriced argument is alive and well, and not overblown IMHO.
My guess is the USP series is going to sell fewer and fewer copies now that the P30 and the 45/45c are available for the HK fans. Therefore you might be seeing some prices drop on those models .
You are correct, no one buys at MSRP. All things relative, you can buy M&P's and Glocks in the $450 to $500 range, still 40% to 50% cheaper than HK. It's either retail to retail or wholesale to wholesale, that is how it works.
I agree. Which is why I challenged your MSRP quote in response to the gentleman's M&P config that brought it to 700 and change.
Apples to apples the discrepancy is over rated. 50% is a far cry from 2x.
I did make the choice, and consciously chose Glocks. At this point I am far too invested in them in terms of support as well as accessories, magazines, etc. to change. But, if the house burned down and I got the insurance check...
I suspect I would still wind up with Glock. Being the best established and longest running of the bunch offers benefits that the others can't (yet) touch. I can get a .22 conversion for it (perhaps several different brands), I can get an airsoft replica of it (albeit rarer than hen's teeth these days), holster makers have been working with them for years, magazines are $20 or less, etc.
I would, however, probably take the check and use it to buy a couple of different guns to see if one just jumped out at me as being so significantly better than the Glock as to merit ignoring all the ancillary advantages the Glock has. I *suspect* that it would not be the case, but I'd at least give it a run, with enough cash and time on hand to give it a good effort.
What Rob said is something many do not take into account when they go to buy a gun. Your support chain is almost as important, if not more important than the actual pistol you buy. I have shot most major brands extensively. I've put near 8k rounds through various M&Ps, and God only knows what through Sigs, Berettas, and Glocks. As an absolute best fit for my hand, the P30 has no equal. IMHO, as far as intrinsic accuracy, the P30 has no equal. Now I'm not saying it's significately more accurate than a Glock, but for me it is enough to notice.
Life would have been sooooo much easier if I had just stuck with a Glock or M&P, as buying parts for the HK at times is difficult, finding mags at times was difficult. I don't have the options in sights like I would the others (hint-hint Scott Warren), nor holsters. I did get lucky and score a large stack of P30 mags for a price almost as cheap as LE Glock Mags, so that helped. The other issues I just decided to live with as the P30 really is the gun for me. Not to say I can't shoot other guns well, just that the P30 feels like home for me.
But go shoot different guns, look what's available in your area. If it was a Friday afternoon and you needed a good holster for a class Saturday where you live, what gun does your area support. For me that would definitely be Glock or the NRA pistol of the century the XD. See what fits you best and what you can maintain. For most people this infact is the Glock.
I agree. Which is why I challenged your MSRP quote in response to the gentleman's M&P config that brought it to 700 and change.
Apples to apples the discrepancy is over rated. 50% is a far cry from 2x.
Not really, because no one is talking about USP's, they are talking about the P30 and the 45/45c. 50% is nothing to sneeze at where I come from. Plus, all those things he did to the M&P are not necessary, only choice. As some others have stated, the newer M&P's are GTG out of the box.
I believe the USP will suffer the same fate as the S&W Sigma and fade into obscurity for the most part, at least in the US.
So you still have the bloated prices for HK's. With the social welfare in Deutschland I am not surprised at the cost of their products. I don't want to pay for the dead asses in the US, and I most definitely don't want to pay for them in Germany.
OP, I don't know if you're still reading, but I went with HK. I'm confident in my HK45c's reliability and I like the ergos, plus the fact I can carry it in Condition 1.
If I had it to do over again, I'd try out the G19, M&P9, and P30 and pick which one I like best out of those. I have confidence in the reliability of each, and if I could afford to buy another gun right now I'd take a 9mm for the reduced recoil and increased capacity.
50% is a far cry from 2x.
Actually, it's the exact same thing. If the A is 50% of the B, then the B is 2 times A. Let A=M&P and B=H&K.
In my case, I went with two of A for my choice of pistol. :)
With the social welfare in Deutschland I am not surprised at the cost of their products. I don't want to pay for the dead asses in the US, and I most definitely don't want to pay for them in Germany.
That right there made me smile. I could see it as a sig line. Ha.
I'm surprised more people haven't mentioned the XD. Personally, I'm a big fan and own several XD models - but my wife will only shoot Glocks.
Actually, it's the exact same thing. If the A is 50% of the B, then the B is 2 times A. Let A=M&P and B=H&K.
In my case, I went with two of A for my choice of pistol. :)
That's not what was being argued. MSRPs were thrown out for the M&P and an H&K pistol where the H&K was twice the price of the M&P (i.e. 100% more, rough numbers $620 vs $1240); where actual street prices are more in the neighborhood of the H&K being 50% more than the S&W (rough numbers; $500 vs $750-800).
Magic_Salad0892
01-25-11, 16:28
I'm surprised more people haven't mentioned the XD. Personally, I'm a big fan and own several XD models - but my wife will only shoot Glocks.
Your wife is a smart woman. You should take her advice.
GermanSynergy
01-25-11, 16:33
The XD is not mentioned because it's widely regarded as a substandard platform.
I'm surprised more people haven't mentioned the XD. Personally, I'm a big fan and own several XD models - but my wife will only shoot Glocks.
The XD is not mentioned because it's widely regarded as a substandard platform.
Lol! I should have expected something like that...
Honestly, I tried the Glocks and I actually do like them. I shoot as well with my wife's G19 as I do with any other gun and I believe they are completely reliable. Having said that, there are a couple of issues with Glocks that I haven't seen with XDs (although the reverse is also true).
It sounds like I'm in the minority, and I'm fine with that, but I have a hard time thinking any of the polymer pistols mentioned in this thread are vastly superior to the others. I think it boils down to personal preference 99% of the time - which leads me to believe that pretty much everyone here is 'right' about the polymer pistol they've chosen to use.
Not really, because no one is talking about USP's, they are talking about the P30 and the 45/45c. 50% is nothing to sneeze at where I come from. Plus, all those things he did to the M&P are not necessary, only choice. As some others have stated, the newer M&P's are GTG out of the box.
I believe the USP will suffer the same fate as the S&W Sigma and fade into obscurity for the most part, at least in the US.
So you still have the bloated prices for HK's. With the social welfare in Deutschland I am not surprised at the cost of their products. I don't want to pay for the dead asses in the US, and I most definitely don't want to pay for them in Germany.
I find it hard to believe that YOU can say what's necessary and what is'nt on MY pistol..Sure, the RAM was probably a waste of money, I knew that would be a gamble..The Heinie's? ever try a set? Two dot night sights are the way to fly.. I did shoot my MId size .45 a good while and put alot of rounds through it before I made any changes,to it, or the 9mm, and the changes I made, were made as needed improvements over stock, and they also improved my ability to shoot the pistols as well, which is the whole idea.. The M&P is a good pistol and as I said earlier, it could benefit from some improvement, rather than waste time and money developing a new "hillbilly handgun" as S&W chose to do.. The issue of tolerance stack up applies to my 9mm, as it had the dreaded "dead trigger issue" This was caused by the sear and trigger housings setting too high in the frame, one can check theirs by simply taking the slide off and slipping a feeler gage under the rear slide rail, and frame..in the case of the 9mm, this measurement was 0.40 and as Randy from Apex told me over the phone this was at the high end of tolerance. Basically, the slide was sitting a little higher in the frame and as a result, had that much less engagement between the sear and striker, The result? dead trigger... The fix was of course, a Mass. sear spring, and a new sear which has 0.10 in height added to the tail. The combnation of the higher sear, and stronger sear spring, insure this will never happen again. Apparently, S&W thought so as well, the new M&P's come from the factory with Mass. sear springs installed. S&W should tighten up these critical tolerances and find a way to put these housings at the same height each and every time, in every frame. I suspect this is one reason why HK and Glock use frame rails that are molded into the frame. The M&P ? I like'em, they just need more improvement, HK's I like them as well, overpriced or not, they seem to have alot fewer problems,And for right now, it's the one I'm putting more time and effort into shooting. It's a free country, and one should feel free to spend their money as he or she wishes, so, if you prefer HK's or M&P's Then buy what you like and drive on. Arguing over which is overpriced, better, etc, is a huge waste of time,(which could be better spent at the range) We should be grateful we live in a free country, and have so many choices.
I feel like O'Reilly. One guy loves the analogy, the other hates it. Fair and balanced I say!
Eaaaaaasy big Fella! Wasn't attacking you for what you wanted to do to your pistol. What ever blows your skirt up.
I am not a gear queer and am not compelled to dick with everything I get. I no longer need to put headers or glass packs on the Vette. Don't need to do a cam swap, head work, and carb work on the Harley. Don't need to do a 8" lift and run huge tires on the Jimmy one ton. I also don't need the perceived latest Jack Bowers modified signature model sidearm either. You get the drift.
All I stated was that from my experience, and what I am hearing from others, is the current M&P's being delivered are pretty good out of the box and don't really need much if anything. Of course it is each individual's choice to do as he sees fit.
Relative to the trigger and sear housings, I would bet with the stainless steel chassis imbedded in the frame that they are set in the frame at the same height with an acceptable tolerance variation as you would find on any pistol, including the rail height in the Glock and HK. Don't think that the rails molded into the frames of those models are the exact height with every pistol coming off the line.
I would rather people go out and shoot the damn things and spend some time with them w/o feeling compelled to switch this and change that, primarily because of what they read on the net. It just isn't really necessary in most cases, but hey, it is your dough.
Actually, it's the exact same thing. If the A is 50% of the B, then the B is 2 times A. Let A=M&P and B=H&K.
In my case, I went with two of A for my choice of pistol. :)
Your math is off.
a 50% difference would equate to 1.5x not 2x.
Specific to our discussion the 500 M&P compared to a 750 HK is 1.5x.
in his original he claimed a 600 M&P compared to a 1200 HK which is 2x.
If you know of a place where they're selling new M&P9s for 350 please share that site with me because like you I'll buy 2.
The 2 for 1 myth is specifically the argument I believe is overrated. YMMV. Enjoy your M&P.
For me the P30 was worth the extra 250 for a number of reasons. It would not have been worth an extra 600.
I enjoy shooting many brands and will end up with an M&P9c at some point as well.
There are a good many polymer pistols available today that ARE quality.
Here is my run down based off of guns that I own, have owned or shot a lot for CCW.
Small Compact (3-3.5")
Walther PPS
Simply one of the thinnest, most accurate, reliable small framed auto loaders available today. A unknown winner.
Mid Frame (4-4.5" Striker Fired)
Glock 19 (GEN 3), M&P 9/40/45/357
The G19 is one of the best out there. I love the size and the fact that there are lot of parts out there for it. The M&P 45 Middy is my personal favorite. Four inch slide, 10rds of 45, and the MOST accurate of all the M&P's.
Honorable mention:
HK P30 and HK45(C). While I HATE DA/SA triggers and am not much more excited about their LEM offerings, the fact remains that these are great guns. Some shooters will have issues with trigger finger pinching between the trigger and triggerguard, mag release (finding it) and riding the slide release, causing the slide to not lock back.
If you are a new shooter and are thinking about one of these guns, make sure to get some rounds down range BEFORE buying. Their triggers and ergo's are NOT for everyone and typically take more practice to learn than a striker fired gun does. If you are an experienced shooter and know exactly what is going on when you pull the trigger, then you will have a lot less of an issue transitioning I think.
C4
I feel like O'Reilly. One guy loves the analogy, the other hates it. Fair and balanced I say!
Eaaaaaasy big Fella! Wasn't attacking you for what you wanted to do to your pistol. What ever blows your skirt up.
I am not a gear queer and am not compelled to dick with everything I get. I no longer need to put headers or glass packs on the Vette. Don't need to do a cam swap, head work, and carb work on the Harley. Don't need to do a 8" lift and run huge tires on the Jimmy one ton. I also don't need the perceived latest Jack Bowers modified signature model sidearm either. You get the drift.
All I stated was that from my experience, and what I am hearing from others, is the current M&P's being delivered are pretty good out of the box and don't really need much if anything. Of course it is each individual's choice to do as he sees fit.
Relative to the trigger and sear housings, I would bet with the stainless steel chassis imbedded in the frame that they are set in the frame at the same height with an acceptable tolerance variation as you would find on any pistol, including the rail height in the Glock and HK. Don't think that the rails molded into the frames of those models are the exact height with every pistol coming off the line.
I would rather people go out and shoot the damn things and spend some time with them w/o feeling compelled to switch this and change that, primarily because of what they read on the net. It just isn't really necessary in most cases, but hey, it is your dough.
The current M&P's being good out of the box, are that way for a reason, basically they(S&W) copied Apex's sear, The older guns like I have did'nt have that benefit, and the triggers were well, lousy, The S.S. chassis is actually MIM, so, they're basically a casting,Also they're NOT inbedded into the frame, they re held in with a coil pin and are easily removable,I would guess they are also dependent on pin location,Which has a direct relationship with everything else,sear, striker engagement, distance from barrel lug to top of trigger housing(which affect's barrel lockup) all can be affected by how high or low these housings actually are in the frame. And, from what I gather tolerence's vary quite a bit from pistol to pistol, My feeling is this tolerence is too great and needs closed up a bit.Tolerence wise, It would be interesting to compare slide rail heights on samples of Glocks HK's and M&P's I have an idea which has the largest tolerence...
As far as running pistols stock or not, that's up to the indvidiual,I think we can agree on that,(snide comments aside) and as I said, both of mine were older guns, with the older lousy, crunchy triggers,If you've never shot one of them,go try one,you'll love yours after shooting it.After 2000 rnds on the .45 I could'nt tolerate it anymore.There was no reason for S&W to release them like that. S&W used to be known for excellant triggers,out of the box. I have 3 examples of that in older S&W revolvers I have. They know what a good trigger is, and is'nt, They dropped the ball on this issue and they know it.
I'll keep my answer simple. Glocks.
RogerinTPA
01-26-11, 11:17
The current M&P's being good out of the box, are that way for a reason, basically they(S&W) copied Apex's sear, The older guns like I have did'nt have that benefit, and the triggers were well, lousy, The S.S. chassis is actually MIM, so, they're basically a casting,Also they're NOT inbedded into the frame, they re held in with a coil pin and are easily removable,I would guess they are also dependent on pin location,Which has a direct relationship with everything else,sear, striker engagement, distance from barrel lug to top of trigger housing(which affect's barrel lockup) all can be affected by how high or low these housings actually are in the frame. And, from what I gather tolerence's vary quite a bit from pistol to pistol, My feeling is this tolerence is too great and needs closed up a bit.Tolerence wise, It would be interesting to compare slide rail heights on samples of Glocks HK's and M&P's I have an idea which has the largest tolerence...
As far as running pistols stock or not, that's up to the indvidiual,I think we can agree on that,(snide comments aside) and as I said, both of mine were older guns, with the older lousy, crunchy triggers,If you've never shot one of them,go try one,you'll love yours after shooting it.After 2000 rnds on the .45 I could'nt tolerate it anymore.There was no reason for S&W to release them like that. S&W used to be known for excellant triggers,out of the box. I have 3 examples of that in older S&W revolvers I have. They know what a good trigger is, and is'nt, They dropped the ball on this issue and they know it.
Wow! Interesting. Guess they wanted to pull the rug out from under the Apex guys with their reasonable facsimile there of.:rolleyes:
M&P for the win. Only downside is magazine prices.
The S.S. chassis is actually MIM, so, they're basically a casting,Also they're NOT inbedded into the frame, they re held in with a coil pin and are easily removable,
Hmmm, the chassis is embedded into the frame. The sear housing and the locking block housing are held in place by the coil pins. The chassis and two housings are entirely different items.
The current M&P's being good out of the box, are that way for a reason, basically they(S&W) copied Apex's sear,
No, that is incorrect. The Apex parts are their own and the S&W PC parts are their own.
The older guns like I have did'nt have that benefit, and the triggers were well, lousy,
Agree, the triggers were not the best, but still shootable
The S.S. chassis is actually MIM, so, they're basically a casting,Also they're NOT inbedded into the frame, they re held in with a coil pin and are easily removable,
The chassis as I understand it is stamped. Even if they were MIM, so what? You are 100% mistaken, the stainless chassis is imbedded in the polymer frame and is not removable.
I would guess they are also dependent on pin location,Which has a direct relationship with everything else,sear, striker engagement, distance from barrel lug to top of trigger housing(which affect's barrel lockup) all can be affected by how high or low these housings actually are in the frame. And, from what I gather tolerence's vary quite a bit from pistol to pistol,
All of this manufacturing is done on the most modern equipment with quality control mechanisms in place, irrespective of which manufacturer is is, S&W, Glock, or HK. They all have tolerances they have to meet.
My feeling is this tolerence is too great and needs closed up a bit.Tolerence wise, It would be interesting to compare slide rail heights on samples of Glocks HK's and M&P's I have an idea which has the largest tolerence...
Well, perhaps you could offer the engineers as Smith and Wesson some pointers on where they went wrong or how they could improve their products. I am sure they are receptive to customer feed back.
The tolerance requirements for different designs makes this argument moot. If a manufacturers tolerances are met, then it doesn't matter.
As far as running pistols stock or not, that's up to the indvidiual,I think we can agree on that,(snide comments aside) and as I said, both of mine were older guns, with the older lousy, crunchy triggers,If you've never shot one of them,go try one,you'll love yours after shooting it.After 2000 rnds on the .45 I could'nt tolerate it anymore.There was no reason for S&W to release them like that. S&W used to be known for excellant triggers,out of the box. I have 3 examples of that in older S&W revolvers I have. They know what a good trigger is, and is'nt, They dropped the ball on this issue and they know it.
Dude, I got one when they first came out. After shooting Glock's for 20+ years, it was like putting a custom fitted suit on. Triggers have gotten better, and more stuff is coming on line for the platform for the guy's such as yourself that want to do a few things. It is all good.
Finally, to compare a polymer striker fired pistol with a revolver, particularly an older model, is not a valid comparison. You will have to rethink that one.
Hmmm, the chassis is embedded into the frame. The sear housing and the locking block housing are held in place by the coil pins. The chassis and two housings are entirely different items.
What chassis are you talking about? I have my M&P right in front of me with the slide off. The slide rides on the rail extensions that come from the sear and locking block housings..removing those two housings and you remove 2/3 of the pistols internals there is nothing embedded into the frame itself. I think the term "chassis" is a marketing term used for the sear and locking block housings
No, that is incorrect. The Apex parts are their own and the S&W PC parts are their own.
Agree, the triggers were not the best, but still shootable
The chassis as I understand it is stamped. Even if they were MIM, so what? You are 100% mistaken, the stainless chassis is imbedded in the polymer frame and is not removable.
All of this manufacturing is done on the most modern equipment with quality control mechanisms in place, irrespective of which manufacturer is is, S&W, Glock, or HK. They all have tolerances they have to meet.
Well, perhaps you could offer the engineers as Smith and Wesson some pointers on where they went wrong or how they could improve their products. I am sure they are receptive to customer feed back.
The tolerance requirements for different designs makes this argument moot. If a manufacturers tolerances are met, then it doesn't matter.
Dude, I got one when they first came out. After shooting Glock's for 20+ years, it was like putting a custom fitted suit on. Triggers have gotten better, and more stuff is coming on line for the platform for the guy's such as yourself that want to do a few things. It is all good.
Finally, to compare a polymer striker fired pistol with a revolver, particularly an older model, is not a valid comparison. You will have to rethink that one.
I was'nt nessessairly comparing a revolver to a striker fired handgun, I think you missed the point. I was comparing TRIGGERS...and the fact that S&W has in the past, extensive experience with triggers Even the triggers on their older semi autos were pretty decent. I had a 645, that had a decent DA trigger, SA broke like a glass rod. point being, if they can do that, they could have sent the M&P out the door with a better trigger than they did.
What chassis are you talking about? I have my M&P right in front of me with the slide off. The slide rides on the rail extensions that come from the sear and locking block housings..removing those two housings and you remove 2/3 of the pistols internals there is nothing embedded into the frame itself. I think the term "chassis" is a marketing term used for the sear and locking block housings
The chassis I am referring to you cannot see because it is embedded into the frame. Not replaceable unless you destroy the frame. It is not a marketing term used for the housing blocks. They are separate items.
Peruse this link to see what I am trying to explain:
http://www.shootingtimes.com/handgun_reviews/mp_080806/index1.html
M&P for the win. Only downside is magazine prices.
They're not that bad, $25 is about the going rate..Be glad you don't own a HK P-7..they're $40 used....
The chassis I am referring to you cannot see because it is embedded into the frame. Not replaceable unless you destroy the frame. It is not a marketing term used for the housing blocks. They are separate items.
Peruse this link to see what I am trying to explain:
http://www.shootingtimes.com/handgun_reviews/mp_080806/index1.html
I see, Well I was wrong. thanks for clearing that up.
Wow! Interesting. Guess they wanted to pull the rug out from under the Apex guys with their reasonable facsimile there of.:rolleyes:
The reason I mentioned this is I was following a thread on the M&P forum,several months ago, which was discussing the new sear, Randy from apex had mentioned that S&W was using his design, That's all I know...
For what you want it for an all around gun CCW, Home defense, Range gun...You can not go wrong with a GLOCK 19.
I run a G19 with Wilson Combat Night Sights. I use it for CCW it is light weight and more compact than the 17. For home defense I pop a x300 on it before I go to bed. It is a great range gun big enough to have fun with but compacted enough for CCW. I use it in all my IDPA matches. I get some slack from the "gamers" with their race guns but I don't shoot IDPA to run a race. I shoot IDPA for training even though at times I disagree with the rules at times (totally another topic).
It is a great all around gun. Glock has the longest track record chambered in 9mm plus you will have more cost effective range sessions. Money saved on ammo can go towards a legit training course. From a well known Instructor.
I would stay with my HK's. I've carried Glocks, HKs, Berettas, S&Ws, but still prefer the HK pistols. My current daily carry is an HK45CT. A lot of folks don't realize that HK had the first polymer gun, which was the VP70. Everyone else's polymer guns came after the HK.:moil:
I'm issued a Glock, so I've stuck with that system. House gun is a 34 with a SureFire light, duty guns are Glock 31/33, off-duty I normally carry the same 31/33 combo.
I've got Glocks, M&P's, and HK's. I can't bring myself to call any of them inferior to the others, and I want additional pistols from each line. Currently, my favorite of these is the M&P, but my new HK P30S is already pretty close. For that matter, my Glocks are close, too. If it were a horse race, it would be a "photo finish."
Glock in 9mm (19 or 17) as it's ubiquitous, reliable, tough and extremely consistent from gun to gun.
Just have to replace those ridiculous stock sights.
Odd man out here, but I choose and would chose again the Walther P99AS. Excellent trigger for a poly service weapon, accurate, easy to shoot. Accesorries available if you're willing to look. Downside is magazines are expensive.
M&P or HK. I like the G19/17 but my "platform" needs to encompass the 45 and I don't care for any of the Glocks in 45.
M&P. Everything I loved about Glock and nothing that I hated.
Recently I've been interested in the HK P30, and today, I finally got to run a little informal test I've been wanting to try for a while. Rented a P30 from my local range, shot it side-by-side with my M&P9, for comparison purposes. The P30 had the LEM V2 trigger (reported to be about 7.3 pounds at HK site) while my M&P had the DCAEK kit plus the RAM mechanism (trigger about 4.7 lbs). I thought this was a fair comparison, because the enhanced M&P with DCAEK/RAM still costs well less than a stock P30. Fired 5 rounds at a time through each pistol, then switched to the other one, until I had run a full 100 rounds of 115gr FMJ through each pistol. I wasn't doing formal testing, capturing group sizes, etc., I just wanted to shoot the pistols for "feel" and gauge my experience of shooting them side-by-side, and then see if I clearly preferred one over the other.
A quick summary of my side-by-side shoot: I liked the P30, found it extremely accurate, and see why people like it so much. I've tried it before, but not this much and not side-by-side with an M&P, until today. I especially like the comfort and controls of the grips on the P30, this is one area where the P30 is hard to beat. But I found the M&P enhanced trigger (with Apex DCAEK kit, plus RAM part), to be much superior to the stock V2 LEM trigger, for my taste. The LEM is slightly too heavy (measured it on Lyman digital at 7.2 lbs, versus 4.7 pounds for my M&P DCAEK trigger), although I understand eventually you'll be able to get a V4 conversion kit and switch to a 6 lb trigger. The takeup is also WAY too long. Both the takeup and the reset distance appear to be roughly twice that of the M&P. I also still prefer the traditional type of mag release button found on the M&P, versus the one integrated into the trigger guard on the P30. Further, the M&P appears to handle recoil better; the P30 subjectively feels a bit more flippy or snappy, though this does not seem to affect the accuracy, even when shooting double-taps. One final issue is capacity: I like that the M&P gives 2 extra rounds (17 + 1 versus 15 + 1 for the P30).
Bottom line, I found the P30 is an excellent gun and I can see why people like it so much. For myself though, I still prefer the M&P for the reasons given above. Fundamentally, because of the much improved trigger pull and slightly better handling of recoil in the M&P, I can just plain shoot it and control it better than the P30. I also prefer the M&P for some of the standard non-technical reasons often cited: wide and easy availability of parts and accessories (esp. compared to the P30), excellent lifetime customer service at S&W, and cost (you can get an M&P, enhanced with a DCAEK kit plus RAM part, a stippled rear grip, and a $100 set of night sights, for $220 less than a P30 with a $100 set of night sights). One last thing I really like about the M&P versus the P30 is that the M&P has a compact model, which is awesome for carry, and the P30 really has nothing comparable to this.
You have a lot of great choices for a polymer platform today, and a P30 is a great choice too. But for me the M&P is pretty hard to beat.
Glock, and more specifically Glock 19 Gen4.
TheSmiter1
02-28-11, 04:26
No matter what I eventually settle on, I think I'll always keep a Glock 19 or two on hand. But the HK weapon system would be nice to settle on. I'm very interested in their striker-fired design, which, I understand, is no more than legend at this time.
decodeddiesel
02-28-11, 11:20
I really like the M&P, especially is you want something aside from a 9mm and you desire a thumb safety. To me, nothing else comes close to the feeling of a 1911 save the M&P. This is a great thing.
I think an M&P9C, and an M&P45 midsize would fill out pretty much everything I would need in my "real use" pistols. YMMV.
ETA: Got a P30 LEM on an impulse buy...I still like the M&Ps, but that P30 is for me a superior pistol. I am looking hard at an HK45C with the LEM kit now...
9 mm Glocks, any caliber M&P's, and if I needed a non-striker fired pistol for some reason the HK P30 or HK45c.
That's the exact same conclusion I've come to as well.
Glocks overall are outstanding.
This platform only lacks a thin CCW, which the Walther PPS 9mm striker fired fills that void.
The midsize frame might be the all time winner: G19 9mm, G38 GAP & new G23 40S&W gen4.
Larger sub frame compacts G29 & G30 SF series are tremendous.
The G34/35 are great performers for low cost competition.
The Glock platform covers all the bases, regardless of personal choice.
I was an idiot and bought an XDm 9mm without ever shooting one first. I've shot maybe 50 rounds through my brothers Glock but that was years ago, so I can't comment on its quality. But, since I've used my XDm for the last year and a half, I feel really confident with it. I'm no pro, but I can put the entire magazine in a 4 inch circle from 7-10 yards with stock sights. I'm sure I can close that tighter if I was able to shoot more. My only issue is the gun is so damn big I don't know how I could ever conceal it on my small body. Would I buy another XDm? Maybe one of the .45s later, but for now she is my only girl.
The M&P is my choice, just could never get used to the Glock grip the M&P just feels better in my hand.
I really like my m&p9, smoother.. and I like the glock19 gen 4. For me it is easier to conceal than mp9...and the mp9 is more comfortable in my hand..both really very good guns. I would like to shoot a HK p30 to compare...
Recently decided to enter the 1980's and buy a polymer gun myself. I shot, but did not like, the Glock. I shot them a fair bit in the mid 1990's and I didn't like the grip then either. The XD didn't excite me. The HK was nice, but still didn't trip my trigger and for that price I'd get another steel BHP.
The S&W M&P felt very nice, but something gnawed at me when I was shooting it. I picked up an FNH FNP-9 and I was set. Grip felt good,. Trigger was decent. Then I realized it was the lack of a hammer that was throwing me off on the M&P.
Got a decent deal on the FN, brought it home last week. Free time is tight right now, but I snuck away yesterday for a short break in session with the pistol. Put 400 rounds of FMJ and 50 rounds of HP through it. Hiccups for the first 80 rounds (a number of failures to lock the slide and a few double feeds) and flawless after that. Decent accuracy and easy to shoot.
For me, the FN made sense as it's still a traditional DA/SA gun. For a striker fire, the S&W seemed the best of the lot in my hands.
I carried a Glock 19 for the last ~15 years with no complaints. I am switching, slowly, to the M&P solely because I'm a lefty and like their ambidextrousity. (Or should that be ambidextrousness?)
Now only if S&W made an M&P closer in size to the G19...
mbacelonia
03-28-11, 00:42
Glock in 9mm and M&P in 9mm or .40. Either one works great in 9 for me, the M&P I'm a little more accurate with. I also love the M&P for .40 because it seems to handle the snappier recoil well
Switching into an HK USP 9. I've run a couple of USP 45s and while reliable, they were just too big for EDC in Fl. We'll see how the trimmer 9mm carries.
for me, it's got to be HK's.
I like hk's because of the DA/SA trigger. I'm still a fairly new shooter and just can't get the hang of striker fired pistols. So once i get past the DA portion, my SA shooting is a lot better than shooting a striker. Not only that, HK's with safeties can be left in condition one, which completely eliminates the DA part of it which imo is GREAT!
QuickStrike
03-30-11, 15:28
I go to glocks for 9mm/10mm, and S&W or HK for .45 ACP.
I'm not too interested in other calibers pistol-wise.
for me, it's got to be HK's.
I like hk's because of the DA/SA trigger. I'm still a fairly new shooter and just can't get the hang of striker fired pistols. So once i get past the DA portion, my SA shooting is a lot better than shooting a striker. Not only that, HK's with safeties can be left in condition one, which completely eliminates the DA part of it which imo is GREAT!
You usually just pull the trigger with a striker fired gun? Unless it has an external saftey there is nothing to get used to.
Only handgun I own is a G19, Held an M&P 9 at a shop yesterday. Felt great. I see a purchase in the future.
I carried a Glock 19 government pistol for years, but never cared for it. They are outstanding weapons, if you like them. Today, being retired, all I carry are HKs. My carry weapon is an HK 45C, when hot it's a P2000SK. I think if I was going to carry anything else, I would seriously look at the S&W M&P pistols. They seem to be excellent weapons at a good price. Just my 2 cents.
Dirtyboy333
03-30-11, 21:58
Well my three carry guns are a G23c, Sig P238 and a USP 45c. The Glock gets carried 95% of the time with the rest going to the HK. The 23 is easier for me to carry then the HK and I don't trust the P238 one bit.
If I had to do it over I would buy the 23c again without a doubt. I've heard all the complaints about a Glocks frame in the .40 but I've seen none of it and am not worried about my frame failing at the exact moment I need it in the least. IMO the only downside for me is that I lightened the trigger and I'm a lil scared to chamber it. I know it can't fire unless the trigger is pulled but I still feel much safer with the HK chambered than the Glock. The other I would like to carry is the HK 45c. I love that gun but I'm not very much into the 45. I love the 40.
Mr_Anderson556
03-31-11, 00:59
Well I have not been shooting as much as some people here bought my first hand gun a XD9 full size when I turned 21 4 years ago. It was okay but I shot my friends Sig 226 much better. So I bought a Sig 229 in 40 S&W a year later. And liked that pistol but not the round. So six months later I bought a Sig 226 9mm and really like it. Only problem is so dose my wife and now I find that I do not seem to own a 226 anymore :(. Then I graduated college and enlisted in the PA National Guard 11B. So I had to have a Beretta 92FS well that did not last long as I had problems with the safety and was not conferable with it. And after I realized I will not be seeing an M9 much in the Army I sold it. Then I bought a G17 RTF and G19 Gen 4 and have started working with them the last month. So far it has be positive. Need to get out and take a class but we are deploying and I have a lot of things to do before we leave. When I get home I will probably buy an M&P and see how I like it side by side to Glocks but I do not think ether of them are going anywhere.
HK45 & P30 for me. There's no cure for this affliction, but the M&P line would be my first consideration for changing platforms.
Glock....9mm variety.:cool:
I went with M&P. My early experiences with a Glock 17 (early Gen 1) left a bad taste in my mouth (multiple stoppages due to a failure to feed, or double feed). Fast forward almost 20 years and the Glock is a incredibly reliable weapon. However, I prefer the M&P ergonomics over the Glock. I can shoot the Glock just as well, my choice of M&P over Glock came down to personal preference.
SoulStealer
03-31-11, 12:48
easy...
Glock 9mm family.
Doc Safari
03-31-11, 13:09
Take a guess what my choice is, LOL!
The G17 is still the first, best, and most trouble free of all Glocks. The 19 is good too but I prefer the 17.
EDITED TO ADD: I stick to Generation 3 and previous. The Gen 4's have had too many reported problems for me to invest in one yet.
Magic_Salad0892
03-31-11, 13:33
The G17 is still the first, best, and most trouble free of all Glocks. The 19 is good too but I prefer the 17.
I'd say they're equal in terms of trouble free-ness.
Otherwise it's subjective. After being loyal to the Glock 17 since I started pistol shooing... I now am almost completely converted to Glock 19s. :|
Basically what is your favorite plastic gun as of now?
M&P. Full sized, 9mm. Apex Duty/carry trigger, fiber optic front site, used Sharpie marker to black out rear dots (for a U notched vs 3 dot site picture), and it's GTG.
Was a high end 1911 guy all my shooting life, but the above set up gets me very close to the same performance, with low cost low maintenance.
Never liked any polymer guns 'till the MnP platform.
Only criticism for me is, they need to offer more aggressive grip texture as Glock has.
You usually just pull the trigger with a striker fired gun? Unless it has an external saftey there is nothing to get used to.
Only handgun I own is a G19, Held an M&P 9 at a shop yesterday. Felt great. I see a purchase in the future.
:no:
Nothing to get used to....except the trigger...which has to be one of the most important part of firing a hand gun accurately.
I own and carry a stock G19 3rd gen everywhere I go. I've carried 1911's and revolvers in the past. For me the Glock 19 is the best combination of simplicity, firepower, reliability, and compactness is a package that has endless availability of parts and accessories.
If I had to do it again, it would be a Glock 17 again.
NC Buckeye
03-31-11, 20:39
I started shooting and competing a two years ago so all of the current crop plastic guns were available and I got to choose, it just took me 2 years.
My first plastic gun was a G19 I put 6-7000 rounds through it last year, including Tac Pistol 1 class, My most frequent training partner has an XDm and I have a few rounds through a S&W.
I really wanted to like a 1911, I didn't. I really wanted to like the S&W M&P, I hated the trigger, it felt like mush. I didn't want to like the XDm, I didn't. I really didn't want to like Glock, but after 2 years of carrying it I have determined there is no other gun for me.
Since I carry, train and compete with my Glock and I have decided to standardize on it. My Kimber is up for sale and within the month I will have a second 19 Gen3 as a spare and a 17 Gen4 for IDPA.
The only exception I currently have for my use guns, is a PM9, same mannual of arms and goes where a Glock can't. If Glock started shipping a single stack G26 the PM9 would go too.
My name is NC Buckeye and I have become a Glock fanboy.
sundance435
04-01-11, 13:02
For now I will stay with the M&P line. The M&P9 is just as good as the 9mm Glocks and the M&P 40 and 45 is better than the Glocks in those calibers. Win, win.
Now, since this thread can also be a want thing... I will probably get the P30 when they release the striker-fired version. I can't stand DA/SA anymore after practicing with the M&Ps.
:thank_you2:
I beg to differ. A Glock 9mm does not need $100 in aftermarket parts to make it as reliable as...a 9mm Glock.
Well you're right about Glocks being great guns.
When I shoot them I miss vertically and the bone where my thumb meets my hand gets rubbed to bleeding. I wish I could shoot Glocks, but the M&P is a great alternative.
The post prior to mine noted that one shouldn't get an M&P rather than a Glock because, essentially, it takes an extra hundred bucks to make the Smith as reliable as the Glock.
I was pointing out that for whatever reason, some of us don't shoot Glocks well. For me, my hand bleeds when I shoot one, and the grip angle is not natural. Just explaining why not everyone chooses the Glock.
NC Buckeye
04-01-11, 21:16
My hand bleeds if I don't tape it too... I buy tape. I consider that my problem not the guns.
I would buy a Glock again, no better choice IMO.
titsonritz
04-02-11, 04:26
No is mentioning Taurus or Ruger. :sarcastic:
Glock 9mms ... All i own and all i will own aside from an hk45 or springer pro.
topsykretts
04-02-11, 13:38
Ruger PM9c.
I beg to differ. A Glock 9mm does not need $100 in aftermarket parts to make it as reliable as...a 9mm Glock.
You base that on?
The only polymer gun I own current is an XDm 40. It's been flawless, with not one malfunction of any sort in nearly 3000 rounds I've fed through it (I purchased it new).
I've also owned an M&P9 and M&P40, and while they were just as good, I prefer the XDm, as it fits my hand better.
I like Glocks, for their reliability and wide-spread acceptance, but they do not fit my hand for shit, so I don't buy them.
Glock 19 RTF and Glock 17 RTF are my favorites. I do like the M&P 40 and 40C for that caliber, but the grips are so slippery, which bothers me... Requiring a need for stippling which I feel shouldn't be necessary, but it is. For .45, G30 is my favorite with G21SF a close second. DA/SA designs need not apply as far as I am concerned.
Nytcrawler93
04-03-11, 19:09
Hard to beat a Glock 19. The only thing I like better is the XDM 3.8 compact. The Glock 19 with the EXO coat is super allright.
condition1
04-04-11, 15:22
Ive got the standard XD .40 and its 9mm conversion barrel. It has run like a top since the day I got it. For me, the POA and draw is so close to my 1911 its scary. The M&P is not comfortable with any of the grips and the Glocks dont point natural. YRMV
As far as a carry gun though, My little Ruger LCP is just fine. Now, if we can just get CC in Illinois I would be happy.
My hand bleeds if I don't tape it too... I buy tape. I consider that my problem not the guns.
What part of your hand bleeds? My index finger bleeds.
I carried an M&P .40 during my employment with an armored car company, while I liked how it fit my hand and the accuracy of the gun was acceptable, I didn't care for the trigger, just felt squishy to me.
A friend of mine is getting into the shooting sport and is looking for a pistol for her to use so I've been taking her to a local indoor range and renting various guns to determine which one she feels comfortable with. The pleasant side effect of this is I also get to try out a number of different pistol.
The last time we went we rented an M&P .40, a Glock 17 and an XD .45 while my friend didn't care for the recoil characteristics of the 9mm and .40, she started flinching pretty bad, so I'm trying to talk her into getting a .22 like a buckmark to start with.
What I found for myself is that the Glock beat the crap out of my firing hand's middle finger with the bottom of the trigger guard, and started to cut into the web of my hand. But I liked the accuracy and the trigger. I have shot various other Glocks in more limited amounts over the years including my cousin's Dept. issued .40
The M&P, well it was just like my issued work gun.
I liked the XD the most, good clean trigger, felt good in the hand, was grouping about 3 inches at 20 yards and at 21 feet I was able to conduct failure drills with ease and as fast as I could without getting yelled at for breaking range rules about rapid fire (they let me slide with alot) The only thing I didn't care for was the magazine supplied with the gun was super tight getting in and out of the gun, if I was to buy one I would ensure that that wasn't an issue on that particular gun.
Granted these samples were rental guns so who knows just how many thousands of rounds have been put through them.
rero, I wasn't very fond of the stock trigger on the M&P either. I had Grant do a full works job with every Apex part they had.
Now? Nice clean break, extremely tactile (and audible) reset. I strongly recommend going that direction.
I've heard a lot about the Apex parts but to be honest, when it comes to pistols, the only changes I want to have to do to it is maybe change the grips. I've shot a Sig 9mm once, it was getting dark at the time so couldn't do an accuracy check but overall it felt alright in my hands.
Really though, when it comes right down to it, I'm more of a 1911 man myself, my personal SA is alright, I wasn't patient and got a lightweight model, but my friend's kimber is just golden.
I've pretty much consolidated on 9mm Glocks (3rd gen only). I have so many mags, holsters, etc. that it would be ridiculous to change to something else.
But if I had to start over, I would probably end up at the exact same spot. The reasons why I went with the Glock 9mms are still true: they are durable, reliable, modestly priced, widely available, well supported by the aftermarket industry, simple to operate, easy to shoot, and scale up and down well (G26 to G17).
I might give the M&P series a shot, only because I like the M&P45 more than the G21. I might also try the HK P30 if I had the money available.
But if I look back at the journey I've taken since I bought my first pistol, I've tried SIGs (P220 and P229), .40 and .45 cal Glocks, three different 1911s ranging from basic to full custom, and an HK45. The gun I've had the longest and shot the best has always been my trusty G17. Despite many efforts nothing has been able to unseat that G17 as my favorite pistol. So I built my arsenal around the G17 and G34 platform. And I'd probably do so again.
I've pretty much consolidated on 9mm Glocks (3rd gen only). I have so many mags, holsters, etc. that it would be ridiculous to change to something else.
But if I had to start over, I would probably end up at the exact same spot. The reasons why I went with the Glock 9mms are still true: they are durable, reliable, modestly priced, widely available, well supported by the aftermarket industry, simple to operate, easy to shoot, and scale up and down well (G26 to G17).
But if I look back at the journey I've taken since I bought my first pistol, I've tried SIGs (P220 and P229), .40 and .45 cal Glocks, three different 1911s ranging from basic to full custom, and an HK45. The gun I've had the longest and shot the best has always been my trusty G17. Despite many efforts nothing has been able to unseat that G17 as my favorite pistol. So I built my arsenal around the G17 and G34 platform. And I'd probably do so again.
+1, I started with the 1911 still have two Novak full custom Colt series 70 (my matched set). Got the HK bug and have a usp 9 and usp tactical .45. Then the Glocks, I have a 9mm array, 26, 19, 17 I have plenty of mags, holsters, lights for each, and lots of 9mm ammo. I use them at work and at home. They are my go to gun.
Glock in 9mm, USP-C in .40. What's not to like?
I have quite a few guns, but only one pistol. I subscribe to the school of only having one pistol and truly mastering it's potential. Don't misunderstand, I have owned several pistols over the years. However, I've had my USP45 for 4 years now and believe it to be the best option for me. The only problem is that I used to be able to drill the bullseye until I installed a match trigger and new recoil spring 2 weeks ago. Now i'm practically having to completely relearn how to shoot. My shots are all over the target and i'm accidentally decocking on a LOT of my shots due to the extra recoil. Still haven't decided if I made the right decision on the upgrades.
Hogsgunwild
05-01-11, 05:12
I've had seven Glocks since 1991. Got rid of all but one and it is short lived. Thought my 1911 collection was all I needed until I discovered the H&K. Now I am even parting with a few 1911s to fuel my H&K collection / affair.
Never believed that a polymer gun could group like my high end 1911s and yet be as reliable as my Glocks.
I am not saying the H&Ks will shoot better than my best 1911s necessarily, and I will not ever get rid all of my 1911s, but, for a third to a quarter of the price-tag of some of my 1911s, the H&Ks leave EVERYTHING in the dust, value-wise.
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