View Full Version : Why does Kahr get a pass regarding reliability?
I've had an itch for a PM9 for about a year now. Every time I get close to buying one, I back out because of all the horror stories. They seem like great guns if you get one that runs, but the amount of issues they have is scary. The complaints run the gamut from fit/finish and barrel peening to FTEs and FTFs.
Due to the large amount of unhappy Kahr owners, I really have to question relying on one for my life. I'm curious why Kahr firearms are held in such high regard in this forum, and why they command their high price.
So, why do you guys continue to rank Kahr as top-notch firearms when they have such poor performance records?
I'm not one of them. I had a P9 Covert. Trigger wouldn't reset after firing. It went 2 times back to the factory & still didn't work. When it did worked, it handled great.
I tried some other small semi's, but finally went back to a J-frame for a BUG.
Fried Chicken Blowout
01-19-11, 19:04
I've got a PM9 that I got new and a P9 that I got used. Both are top notch guns. Enjoyable to shoot, easy on the recoil for small guns, nice triggers and excellent finish. Both shoot extremely accurately and never fail. Never once. Are they high round count guns, no way. I've made my hand swollen and sore shooting a couple hundred rounds of +P 9mm due to the light weight, thin profile in the hand and heavier recoil than a larger gun. But they work fine, so I'm not sure what they are getting a pass on.
Are they a Glock 26 or M&P9c? No I don't thing they would last that long or be that comfortable to shoot, but for their purpose of making CCW comfortable and easily concealable, they are awesome.
I'm sure others have different stories, but I'm keeping my Kahr pistols.
I wondered the vary same thing when shopping for a pistol for my wife. In fact, I posed similar questions in the past. From everything that others posted...It seemed to come down to two things;
1.) While they may have some flaws, they are better than the competition, so it is relative.
2.) When you get a good one, it is an outstanding firearm. Buy with caution and know what to look for, but once you prove yours reliable, you can rest assured and be confident.
I purchased an Kahr PM9 for my wife. We are putting it through its paces and watching for known problems....
While I don't have any experience with a Kahr other than what I read, I've seen good and bad posted on their line. In general, I see more post with issues concerning the smaller polymer line.
Regardless of the manufacturer, there's a threshold on the size and weight of a gun before you may experience cycling problems. That of course has alot of variables involved and one key factor is the shooter and how he/she holds the gun.
General shootability of little monsters is another thing to consider, especially for the sensitive ones.
One thing I don't agree with is that you shouldn't have to shoot a new gun to "make sure it works" or "break it in" You should shoot it enough to make sure it works with your ammunition and become familiar with it to the point of trusting your life on it and your ability to manipulate it.
There is a difference.
The reason that the Kahr PM-9 gets a pass is because there really is no competition in terms of 9mms that compact that are relatively commonly available.
I have a Kahr PM9 that works reliably. I have heard of others that don't. Some need a breaking in and others need to go back to the factory.
I wondered the vary same thing when shopping for a pistol for my wife. In fact, I posed similar questions in the past. From everything that others posted...It seemed to come down to two things;
1.) While they may have some flaws, they are better than the competition, so it is relative.
2.) When you get a good one, it is an outstanding firearm. Buy with caution and know what to look for, but once you prove yours reliable, you can rest assured and be confident.
I purchased an Kahr PM9 for my wife. We are putting it through its paces and watching for known problems....
Exactly what I'm talking about right there.
gtmtnbiker98
01-19-11, 19:41
I owned a Kahr PM9 for a couple months and a Kahr PM45 for a couple weeks. Most unreliable pieces of shit I've owned. The PM45 went back the second day of ownership, due to FTF issues. They sent it back with FTE issues. 500-rounds and things got worse. I ditched it at a huge loss with disclosure and moved on.
Never again. When I need a pocket gun, it's a J-frame, period.
I bought a PPS because of a buddy's terrible experience with his PM9. The Kahr is a little smaller, but the PPS has been completely reliable. I don't understand why anyone would say the Kahr has no competition in the compact 9mm arena.
http://mccollister.info/PPSvsPM9001.jpg
I hada CW9 for my wife. Failure to feed, and failure to reset where not common but did happen. She was taking a class with me when a FTR happened, she ran the rest of the class with a G19 and the Kahr went bye bye.
So... I dont give them a pass. I do see them spoken of quite a bit though, so I know what your refering to, but I never personally recomend one.
gtmtnbiker98
01-19-11, 20:41
I bought a PPS because of a buddy's terrible experience with his PM9. The Kahr is a little smaller, but the PPS has been completely reliable. I don't understand why anyone would say the Kahr has no competition in the compact 9mm arena.
http://mccollister.info/PPSvsPM9001.jpgTotally agree! The PPS is one of the better kept secrets in the CCW Industry.
The PPS is also far more pleasant to shoot than the plastic Kahrs, and has a far better trigger for those of us used to Glocks. Best thing I've done in awhile was go from the P9 to the PPS.
I bought a PPS because of a buddy's terrible experience with his PM9. The Kahr is a little smaller, but the PPS has been completely reliable. I don't understand why anyone would say the Kahr has no competition in the compact 9mm arena.
http://mccollister.info/PPSvsPM9001.jpg
Lay those two on top of each other and take the long mag out of the Kahr. The PPS looks like the hot girls fat friend. Even wearing black she is fat.:D My very early production PM9 goes bang everytime. I have two other friends who carry the PM9 with no issues.
My Kahr PM9 has been more reliable than my 3rd gen Glock 17.
Powder_Burn
01-19-11, 21:27
Not top notch in my experience so no pass here. I had a P40 lemon and went on to a scandium J-frame and then a PPS. The latter two were substantial and worthwhile upgrades to the Kahr product for a similar cost. I don't miss dealing with Kahr's surly customer service person either.
Comparison photos lifted of the net (Gunblast?) PM9/J-frame in the photos...
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i99/Powder_Burn/Forum%20Posts/PPSvsPM9vsPF9.jpg
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i99/Powder_Burn/Forum%20Posts/J-FramevsPPS.jpg
Lay those two on top of each other and take the long mag out of the Kahr. The PPS looks like the hot girls fat friend. Even wearing black she is fat.:D My very early production PM9 goes bang everytime. I have two other friends who carry the PM9 with no issues.
Photographs aside, it's true that the Kahr is a little smaller, but it's still not a pocket pistol and in practice IMHO the PPS is not more difficult to conceal effectively. Other than the Kahr's lack of reliability (in my buddy's experience), the PPS's grip without the extended magazine impaired its controllability and comfort, at least in my hands, and my wife's, who has the same pistol. I was willing to trade the relatively small size difference for my perception of reliability and shootability.
Photographs aside, it's true that the Kahr is a little smaller, but it's still not a pocket pistol and in practice IMHO the PPS is not more difficult to conceal effectively. Other than the Kahr's lack of reliability (in my buddy's experience), the PPS's grip without the extended magazine impaired its controllability and comfort, at least in my hands, and my wife's, who has the same pistol. I was willing to trade the relatively small size difference for my perception of reliability and shootability.
True even the PM9 can be a little much in cargo shorts. I am a skinny guy and every little bit helps. To me the Kahr is not all that small in my hand. If I did not feel that mine was reliable I would move up in size to a J-frame smith 340 no lock.
KRAZYKIDDJOE
01-19-11, 22:07
I have a PM9 that I purchased Oct 2010, I put 150 rounds thru it two weeks later three diff manufacturers of ammo, out of the 150 rounds I pulled the trigger on, 68 didn't go bang. I have owned other Kahr's in the past, currently a CW-9 that has been ultimately reliable with everything that I have fed it. I called Kahr arms and recieved a "new" recoil spring/rod assembly (I don't even begin to try and connect how fail to fire is related to that piece). The ammo all would have good solid hits on the primers but they would be off center on the edge of the primer. Apparently Kahr might not understand what "centerfire" means.
I contacted them again after the recoil spring didn't fix the problem. I got my RA #. I haven't gotten around to actually sending it back in. I am disgusted with the whole thing at this point. I already told them I am only sending it back in once...
We shall see.
KKJ
Tom Russell
01-19-11, 22:33
I own two Kahrs. The first is a .40 S&W that I've had around ten years. I sent it back to Kahr as the slide/barrel were out of spec. It has run flawlessly ever since.
I also have a PM45 that I wrote about in the May 2009 issue of SWAT. The article is located on Kahr's website if you would like to check it out. It certainly needed the break in period, and then some, that Kahr mentions in their manual. It now runs flawlessly even with inexperienced shooters.
I will be running a friend’s PM9 tomorrow at the range. It was failing to feed and failing to fire. I believe both the recoil spring and firing pin spring were soft so we changed them out. Kahr’s customer service has always been exemplary in my experience.
Six rounds of .45 acp in a reliable piece, with a decent trigger and excellent sights, makes me happy. It’s rides in Alessi leather on my ankle as I write this.
Ruger has a new compact 9
Keltec is the smallest, compact 9, commonly available.
lethal dose
01-19-11, 23:19
Ruger has a new compact 9
Keltec is the smallest, compact 9, commonly available.
Excellent point, but nowhere near the gun. Then again, you never said it was.
The Dumb Gun Collector
01-19-11, 23:20
I have had two PM9s. Both were reliable. I seem to have good luck. Almost every one of the zillion pistols I have owned has been reliable and run fine. The two I have had real problems with was (1) a Glock 17 :eek: and (2) a custom Novak's commander they eventually refunded my money on.
I shoot my Kahr Pm9 at least 50 rounds per week and sometimes as much as 150. I think they are excellent pistols for what they are meant for.
I've handle three Kahrs (CW9, CW40, MK9) firsthand and they've been 100% so far (low round count though). Confident enough to make the CW40 my primary CCW though.
I do wish someone else would make a single stack 40sw/9mm sized to compete with the Kahr CW and P series though. The PPS is interesting, but the "needs backstrap to function" safety irks me and Bersa seems to have a bit of trouble importing their BP9cc
I've got a PM9 that I got new and a P9 that I got used. Both are top notch guns. Enjoyable to shoot, easy on the recoil for small guns, nice triggers and excellent finish. Both shoot extremely accurately and never fail. Never once. Are they high round count guns, no way. I've made my hand swollen and sore shooting a couple hundred rounds of +P 9mm due to the light weight, thin profile in the hand and heavier recoil than a larger gun. But they work fine, so I'm not sure what they are getting a pass on.
Are they a Glock 26 or M&P9c? No I don't thing they would last that long or be that comfortable to shoot, but for their purpose of making CCW comfortable and easily concealable, they are awesome.
I'm sure others have different stories, but I'm keeping my Kahr pistols.
I know I have massive hands, and that CCW'ing a USP .45 Tac is crazy, but uh. I do not understand why everyone here has these ultra ultra small CCW guns. My friends have 9mms and 40s like these Kahrs and they just sit in the safe...
I do not understand why you would pass up a Glock 26 or 19 to use a Kahr? It scares me to think of shooting a 9mm that makes your hand swollen! My friend's 34 is like shooting an airsoft gun.
I understand small, but I would much rather have one of those Lightweight 18oz .357 mag J frames. Hell, I would probably just go right for the 25oz .44 Mag but I understand the need for something smaller. I do not understand the need for something so fragile that people recommend you do not even train with them. Speer GD in .357 mag with a 2 inch barrel goes ~1000 fps at the muzzle @ 135gr. That is every bit of a 9mm+p from a sub compact.
I do not have experience with the PPK, but it seems to be a huge favorite in that form factor for a semi auto.
I do not understand why you would pass up a Glock 26 or 19 to use a Kahr? It scares me to think of shooting a 9mm that makes your hand swollen! My friend's 34 is like shooting an airsoft gun.
I dunno but for me, I have a preference for appendix carry. My first carry gun was an XD9 Subcompact. I didn't mind carrying it but it was a bit bulky especially when I was sitting down. And I have "palm a basketball" sized hands so shooting with a hanging pinky was uncomfortable but carrying with the extended mag added even more bulk so I bought a CrossBreed SuperTuck to try carrying a different way. But it didn't work out so I started looking for an alternative gun to carry.
Around this time alot people were giving praise to the S&W 642 so I jumped onto that bandwagon. I carried that for a month or two and didn't like it much. Though I admit, I didn't really give it much of a chance. Unpleasant shooter and carrying extra ammo was a hassle. I couldn't do a revolver so I gave it to my dad to keep around the house.
Then the CW came along. Thinner than the XD and a longer grip than most "subcompacts". Carried it for over a year and no gripes so far.
I had to PM9's and found them too unreliable for comfort. In a class recently a small handed individual went through two P9's before class was over on day two. Each of them failed for reasons I am not lucid enough to remember. I was not and am not a Kahr fan from my observations and time with the guns. So I did not pay much attention. Though I know others to find them completely reliable. I believe it's a crap shoot.
I dunno but for me, I have a preference for appendix carry. My first carry gun was an XD9 Subcompact. I didn't mind carrying it but it was a bit bulky especially when I was sitting down. And I have "palm a basketball" sized hands so shooting with a hanging pinky was uncomfortable but carrying with the extended mag added even more bulk so I bought a CrossBreed SuperTuck to try carrying a different way. But it didn't work out so I started looking for an alternative gun to carry.
Around this time alot people were giving praise to the S&W 642 so I jumped onto that bandwagon. I carried that for a month or two and didn't like it much. Though I admit, I didn't really give it much of a chance. Unpleasant shooter and carrying extra ammo was a hassle. I couldn't do a revolver so I gave it to my dad to keep around the house.
Then the CW came along. Thinner than the XD and a longer grip than most "subcompacts". Carried it for over a year and no gripes so far.
I do not see what you like about appendix carry! That is the most uncomfortable position for me.
That makes perfect sense though, no way are you getting something with a 4 inch barrel up in that position and managing to sit down with any level of comfort. I guess I would say I carry around 3 o'clock. If I had to choose a different position it would be closer to 6 o'clock I guess.
Revolvers do take a ton more training. Many cops have died in the past 30 years in shootouts with BGs while reloading.
Have you ever tried a Walther PPK or a H&K P7? Mabye I have seen Die Hard too many times?
Have you ever tried a Walther PPK or a H&K P7? Mabye I have seen Die Hard too many times?
I never could catch the PPK at the gun shows when I was looking for one. I'm not sure if I'd carry it because its a .380 (Yes, I know its theoretically a sufficient round) but I'd say its one of the best looking guns out there and I would love to have one just to have one.
The P7 is also an interesting gun. But too rich for my blood. :p
I loved my PM9. I say loved, because I sold it for a G26 to carry off duty, as my brother got into my head beacuse it carries more rounds.
What is nice about the PM9 is how slim it is. The G26 was every bit as wide as my issued Beretta...so I never got it. For my, keeping in mind im 6'-3", your gun will print more due to its width then length. If I'm going to carry something as wide as a Beretta, I may as well carry the Beretta, that holds more ammo and I have a much higher level of training with, the latter being more important.
I loved the trigger on the PM9 as well. I took it to the indoor range, shot about 200 rounds out of it. When I went to qual with it, I shot a perfect 300 with it. Recoil was more than the Beretta, but that goes w/o saying.
My only issue was with the 7 round mags. On the first few rounds, the slide would fail to go into battery when stripping a round off of the mag. A simple tap on the back of the slide would send it home.
For some ****ed up reason, the spring on the 7 round mags is significantly longer than on the 6 round mags. Way too much tension on the feed lips of the mag. I never got this, because the mags, the 7 round ones, worked great with the 6 round mag springs.
All that being said, I will be buying another PM9. Very nice on the ankle holster.
I think that they get a pass by people who have owned their Kahr's for some time and have not experienced any issues with theirs. I am completely satisfied with my PM9. I bought it about 7 years ago or so and I only had one stove-pipe malfunction that was likely caused by a poor shooting grip on my part.
I wont discount the issues others have obviously had with their Kahr's.
I think the answer to the op's original question is that if you do end up getting a reliable Kahr pistol they are fantastic little pocket/back-up guns, and their owners are more than willing to rave about theirs.
So, why do you guys continue to rank Kahr as top-notch firearms when they have such poor performance records?
Individual guns - per individual reviews reported. But as a manufacturer . . . IMO largely because they aren't Glock. ;)
I got a pretty good deal on a used PM9 at a LGS. Since they have a range I shot a box of rounds through it before I paid for the gun. It ran fine but I was still a bit shy from what I had heard.
18 months later it still runs great. I think I had one failure to feed in maybe 500 rounds. It is my bedtime gun around the house since it carries well enough in my sweats.
I only carry it when I need a truly deep concealment gun.
Buckaroo
Glocks and 1911 get more of a pass then anything else.
I have had and carried a S&W 442 for a little while, neat gun. But..
-capacity is limited
-its fat
-Any defensive ammo was a bitch to shoot
-no real sights
-long heavy trigger, that S&W wont tune anymore to reliability issues
A friend of mine has a Kahr PM9, I shot it at the range one day, looked at my 442 and said Why?
I hemmed and hawed because I heard the reliability stories, and NYPD pulled them from the approved list.
I talked to EdL, who has issues with everything, and his runs fine, my buddies runs fine, and my friend on the job in NY, couldn't get a solid on why it was pulled, he doesn't have one. But said, guys that had them could keep them, and from what he could tell it was some minor BS.
So I finally took a chance on a PM9, black slide and night sights for less then 700 out the door.
Stripped it, cleaned and lubed it, and went to the range. First 150-200 rounds of Winchester NATO ball went down range w/o issue. Somewhere along the way, the little nut on the end of the recoil spring came off. Put it back on, and then had a few failures to reset, which I believe were actually failures to return to battery. Got home, took a look at it, then my buddy looked at it, and the screw is concave and needs to go on one way, I reinstalled it, properly.
Went to the range yesterday, and went thru about 200 rounds with no issues.
And, to be fair, the ball detent in my 442 fell out one day, while reloading, which would have led to the ejector rod unscrewing, and malfunctions. This happened with my Colt Trooper also, so....revolvers are not infallible either.
Why would I wan a small gun, sure I can "Conceal" my full size M&P or Glock, and regularly do. But, sometime the dress code, or other restrictions lead you to needing something smaller, & lighter.
Is it harder to shoot then a G19? Yep, but its easier to shoot then a 442, is quicker to reload, and has real sights. Much closer to a "real gun".
I'm sold, and so is my 442
Bob
I'll chime in on this because I presently own a PM9 and formerly owned a K9.
Kahrs are an elegant design and come from the factory semi-finished. If not adequately prepared before the first shot, properly broken in, and then maintained you will have problems. Like a 1911, they can be hit-or-miss. But the PM9 in particular, and even some of their other models have a form factor that is especially suited for carry. For me, this made it worth the work.
Anyone who buys a new one should break it down and de-burr the polymer, break the sharp edges, and even lightly stone bearing surfaces. Hand cycling might be tedious, but goes a long way if done before first trip to the range.
I am absolutely convinced that lubrication is the key to making these weapons work. I use TW25 grease and strongly believe because of tight tolerances and the propensity for oils to "go away" that grease is the way to go. Kahrs don't work dry, or even semi-dry. They should come with a big container of TW25, which would save Kahr untold dollars in customer service.
The handbook clearly says to shoot 200-250 rounds to break it in. This is a minimum "must do". I cannot emphasize this enough.
Springs are another item that deserve attention. They need to be replaced on schedule. There is an argument for increase power Wolf recoil springs (which makes 'em a bitch to rack).
This is not a weapon for grandma or anyone who is not willing to put in work upfront and attentive maintenance on-going. It is like riding a stud horse; you better be aware.
Stay safe.
No pass from me, either. My late model PM9 didn't make it to 500 rounds before going back to the factory for a new slide and barrel. Kahrs only have the appearance of a quality pistol.
.
For the guys that had issues with the Kahr's, how many rounds did you put through the gun?
Just wondering if these problematic guns made it through the 250 round break-in and then started functioning correctly or even with the 250+ rounds they still malfunctioned?
Are there a lot of people that shot 300 rounds through their guns and still had problems?
I imagine it would be a pain, as well as embarrassing, to be clearing a malfunction every few rounds until you reached the 200+ round count.
It is a shame the Kahr can't take a few minutes in-house to deburr and polish. It ain't like the Kahr's are cheap guns....
.
I own or have owned several Kahr. The first was a P-9 I purchased in around 1999. I still own it and use it as a CCW. I used to own a custom PM-9 which I sold to a fellow M4carbine member and still own a two T-9s and a TP-45. When Kahrs were first intoduced they came with springs so strong they were hard to charge. The ones sold today are not quite so tight. I believe the PM line is just to close to the edge on the man machine interface. Change any one of the varibles, bad form, ammo, springs ect and you will have problems.
My impressions developed over the years is that at a cretain point you reach a point of diminising returns. The P-9 is about the same size as a PPK and fractions larger than a PM-9. It's light and allows for a full grip. I sold my PM-9, not because it was unrelable, but because it was harder to conceal than my P-9. :confused:
Simply put in order to secure a good grip to draw I had to wear my PM-9 OWB, while my P-9 could be IWB. Pocket carry for me doesn't work for a variaty of reasons, the hump of the slide getting caught on my pocket being one, so again the PM-9 offered no advantages.
My PM-9 never caused me any issues before I passed it on. My P-9 is still going strong, and just had some custom work done to it. The first T-9 had some teething problems as highlighted here:
T-9 2,000 round challange (http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=58984)
I'm working on another 2,000 now with new springs, although not to the challanges terms. As far as I know my review is the only high round count review ever done on a Kahr. Folks view them as carry pieces and, other than a few individuals, don't spend a lot of time shooting the pants off them.
Bottom line they aren't perfect, but have some features going for them.
Lay those two on top of each other and take the long mag out of the Kahr. The PPS looks like the hot girls fat friend. Even wearing black she is fat.:D My very early production PM9 goes bang everytime. I have two other friends who carry the PM9 with no issues.
My wife and I have a PM9 and a PPS. IMO the PM9 is noticeably smaller than the PPS. The PPS is half an inch longer in the slide than the PM9. Width is about the same. Height is similar with the shortest mags in both guns. The PPS is really much closer in size to the Kahr P9 than to the PM9.
We've had the PM9 for about 5 and a half years, and it's had a bit over 2k rds through it. It had numerous failures to return to battery fixed by replacing the recoil spring assembly at Kahr's urging at 750 rds. At about 1800 rds it had to go back to Kahr to replace the slide and barrel because of that barrel peening issue. It is not within the serial number range of the PM9 barrel peening recall. My wife won't shoot it; it's too unpleasant for her. She also has trouble racking the slide. I agree with the assertion that people buy them, despite the uneven reliability, because of their small size, light weight for caliber, caliber, and availability.
We've had a PPS 9mm for about 6 months. Have put about 1030 rds through it. Had a failure to feed the first rd of a mag (maybe operator error: insufficiently vigorous slide racking) and one stovepipe, both in the 600-800 rd range; there have been no other stoppages. The gun has a trigger very similar to a Glock IMO(at least after breaking in), with a short distinct reset. It's much more comfortable for my wife to shoot than the PM9, and is now her HD/carry gun. She has no issue racking the slide. Adapting to the unconventional mag release was a very minor challenge, IMO.
I've had two Khar pistols an MK40 and an MK9. I traded them in quickly because they were jamomatics and freaking heavy. I'm only a sample of two here but they were very picky with ammo. I could not get through a magazine of ammo with out a jam. I had the same problem with a Secamp .32 that I had to have! Sold that one quick too. This was 10± years ago when there were not so many better choices out there.
jasonhgross
01-20-11, 10:12
Glocks and 1911 get more of a pass then anything else.
I have had and carried a S&W 442 for a little while, neat gun. But..
-capacity is limited
-its fat
-Any defensive ammo was a bitch to shoot
-no real sights
-long heavy trigger, that S&W wont tune anymore to reliability issues
A friend of mine has a Kahr PM9, I shot it at the range one day, looked at my 442 and said Why?
I hemmed and hawed because I heard the reliability stories, and NYPD pulled them from the approved list.
I talked to EdL, who has issues with everything, and his runs fine, my buddies runs fine, and my friend on the job in NY, couldn't get a solid on why it was pulled, he doesn't have one. But said, guys that had them could keep them, and from what he could tell it was some minor BS.
So I finally took a chance on a PM9, black slide and night sights for less then 700 out the door.
Stripped it, cleaned and lubed it, and went to the range. First 150-200 rounds of Winchester NATO ball went down range w/o issue. Somewhere along the way, the little nut on the end of the recoil spring came off. Put it back on, and then had a few failures to reset, which I believe were actually failures to return to battery. Got home, took a look at it, then my buddy looked at it, and the screw is concave and needs to go on one way, I reinstalled it, properly.
Went to the range yesterday, and went thru about 200 rounds with no issues.
And, to be fair, the ball detent in my 442 fell out one day, while reloading, which would have led to the ejector rod unscrewing, and malfunctions. This happened with my Colt Trooper also, so....revolvers are not infallible either.
Why would I wan a small gun, sure I can "Conceal" my full size M&P or Glock, and regularly do. But, sometime the dress code, or other restrictions lead you to needing something smaller, & lighter.
Is it harder to shoot then a G19? Yep, but its easier to shoot then a 442, is quicker to reload, and has real sights. Much closer to a "real gun".
I'm sold, and so is my 442
Bob
This is exactly what I went through. Had a 642, carried it for years, but when it came down to it, 5 shots of .38 is ok, but its too fat, too long, and when on the hip isnt any easier to carry than the G26. I carry the G26 in the summer most of the time, but the Kahr fills a niche when wardrobe dictactes something even smaller. You can say "dress around the gun" all you want, but if you live in a hot metro area, thats not always feasible. If its worth the investment in money and time, go for a PM9. Mine has been reliable with all sorts of duty ammo, including 124 and 147 grain bullets. With a PM9 there are trade-0ffs vs the glock. Each example must be tested and measured on its own. It isnt a load it up and forget it firearm like a glock may be. It also needs lube, inspection, and caring. But it gives me 7 rounds in a carryable package that very closely matches the manual of arms of my primary firearm.
For those of you who say jframe I ask you this: are you as practiced in its manual of arms as your primary? I would wager that isnt the case. If you are used to a semi, and you have to reload or have an issue with a wheelgun; that is not the time to ask if you have enough practice on the wheelgun. At least with the Kahr, you are talking the same language as the glock, even if its a different dialect. With the wheelgun, its a completely different linguistic group.
I have a PM9 and K40. The PM9 has had approximately 2000 rounds through it and the K40 near 4000. Neither has had one failure.
ghettomedic
01-20-11, 11:28
I owned, carried and ultimately sold a Kahr PM45. I bought mine new in late 2007, carried it as a summer primary and winter BUG for about 18 months and, with one salient exception, was problem-free for me through approximately 600-700 rounds.
The salient exception, however, opened my eyes to the realities of the firearm and was ultimately responsible for my decision to sell it.
Copied from another forum:
"I took advantage of nice weather in NC and the fact that the lasergrips for my J-frame arrived to hit the range. I planned on doing maybe 100 rounds of training with my summer primary, my Kahr PM45 and my carry ammo, RA45TP.
First drill was going to be simulating a carjacking, I was going to fire two rounds from inside my truck at a target 3 yards off the driver's side door; exit on the passenger's side and fire two more rounds at a target off my front bumper; tac reload and search and assess.
This was all fine and good until my first shot, which caused the slide release lever to protrude out the side of the gun and the gun to double feed. I retrieved my 442 from my ankle after exiting the vehicle and finished the drill, stopping afterwards to pick up and clear my now-inoperable PM45 from the driver's side floorboard.
The front leg of the polymer magazine follower on the PM45 mag broke off, causing the double feed. I don't know what may have caused the slide release lever to pop out the side of the gun, I've got about 500 trouble-free FMJ rounds through the gun, in addition to about 200 rounds of my carry ammo, 230 gr. +P SXT. I was able to reassemble the gun and fire about 50 trouble-free rounds through my other mag, but I simply cannot trust this Kahr as a carry weapon until it's looked over and I re-fire a few hundred rounds through it. It's only about 18 months old, I think Kahr has a 3-year warranty so I'll talk to them about sending in back in."
Kahr sent me another follower for free and in conversations with their CS department they basically said I could send it in if I wanted to, but since I had fired more rounds through the second mag without issue the issue was probably mag-related. As I thought more about it, it was possible this round was overly set-back as a result of a few unchamberings and reloadings over the previous few months. Combined with the +P loading this could have increased pressures to the point where I experienced a "mini-kB" resulting in a broken follower and protrusion of the slide stop.
Since this happened, I never carried the PM45 again and sold it 5-6 months later. While this malfunction represented the first I'd experienced since owning the gun, the fact that it occurred using the magazine and ammo that I had carried for the last 2 months made it much more profound, to the point that I could no longer rely on this gun as a CCW. I practice immediate and remedial action every time I go to the range, but this gun was simply locked up on me and required 2-3 minutes to yank the mag out and reinsert the slide stop.
Just my $0.02, obviously a sample of 1 and 1 FTE in 600-700 rounds doesn't necessarily classify a manufacturer as "unreliable", but I would advise those considering the PM45 to take a realistic look at their method of carry and manner of dress, I am willing to bet you can conceal a larger gun from a manufacturer with a more robust reputation for reliability.
I have had my PM9094NA for several years (05/2006) and it has been a great little gun. It is my daily CCW.
http://img61.imageshack.us/img61/7789/img1013medium5zh.jpg
varoadking
01-20-11, 19:49
What are these problems you speak of?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v22/varoadking/Mancave/moreguns017.jpg
Fried Chicken Blowout
01-20-11, 20:25
What are these problems you speak of?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v22/varoadking/Mancave/moreguns017.jpg
Nice family photo!!!
I talked to EdL, who has issues with everything, and his runs fine,
Gee, thanks, Bob. Now you probably just jinxed my Kahr.:haha:
To be fair, I doubt that I fire more than 300-400 rounds a year through it. I use it as a low profile pocket gun for when I can't carry anything larger, and have gone as far as having some of my suit pants pockets deepened by a tailor to make it not print Before I had them altered the pockets were so small and tight that loose change would almost print.
As I've said before, the key is to use a pocket holster which serves to keep the gun oriented muzzle down and to break up its outline.
Another key is to carry absolutely nothing else in the pocket other than the gun in the pocket holster.
I use the Kahr PM-9 at work because you have to pass the same people every day who might notice things that strangers on a street might not. This might have repercussions where corporate policy prohibits the carry of weapons that are otherwise legal to carry.
With pocket carry you can have your hand in your pocket on the gun ready to draw if necessary.
Below is a picture of my Kahr PM-9 and S&W 640 both in Uncle Mikes holsters. It's hard to tell from the picture how much flatter and more compact the Kahr PM-9 is.
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i232/eds-stuff/pockguns.jpg
Well for what it's worth, I have the PM9 model 9094 and haven't had any issues. Course I've only got about 350 rounds through it, but so far I trust it.
You guys are making me wonder though, I didn't realize the Kahrs had a bad rep, I thought their rep was actually pretty good.
I regard to size, I sometimes think I should have gotten a P9 instead of the PM9. It's just a little too small for high round count comfortable shooting and just a little too big for pocket carry.
...
I don't feel Kahrs get a "pass" on reliability at all. They are one of the brands that had teething problems with their polymer guns at the start, and actually HAD a recall to fix the problems.
There are certainly a fair share of "problem children" Kahrs out there, and the people who were unfortunate enough to get one definitely have my sympathy and understanding for their frustration. However, I think that some people take the "mine didn't work, so they're all unreliable crap" line a bit far.
I've owned so many Kahrs I literally can't say for sure now exactly how many. But, as far as I remember, I had one of the very first K9s - plain blue (not a great option for living in Panama!), a K40 stainless, a K9 "Elite 98", a P9, a P40, and, IIRC, five PM9s. The issues I've had with these pistols included magazines with excessively "loose" feed lips that would pop rounds loose into a mag pouch during normal wear - fixed by Kahr shipping me multiple free magazines to replace the "questionable" ones, no questions asked; and ONE PM9 that would occasionally fail to go fully in battery with weak ammunition during the initial break-in - a problem that resolved itself within the first 100 rounds and never recurred. I've had so many PM9s because, without fail, after having shot mine, friends have decided they couldn't live without THAT PM9, so I've sold them off. I would guestimate that, between my current daily-carry BUG PM9, and the four previous ones that my friends still run, we've probably got 6-8,000 rounds without incident. Again, sample size is small - five out of how many thousands made, but 5 out of 5 good samples makes me pretty confident.
Again, if you're the owner or were the owner of a problem Kahr, my sympathies, and I don't doubt they were just as problematic as you say. I've just received back from Glock a 3rd Gen G19 that was not reliable with ball ammunition, so EVERY company makes a bad one now and again...
Regards,
Kevin
I have a PM9. Love it... replaced my Kel-Tec P3AT as my primary carry. I still carry my Glock 27 when clothing allows it.
As for the Kahr... 160+ rounds through it without a SINGLE issue.
Funny...I own 3 PM models. 2 PM9's and a PM45. All three were purchased used because the previous owners said they were POS and jam-a-matics. I have fired 1,000's of round through them and I have not had a single issue. A very good friend and fellow shooter absolutely loved them until I let him "try" to shoot them. He had problems with all of them....jammed or short stroked. He started bitching about what pieces of sh!t they were.....well, he would hand it to me and I would fire round after round with nary an issue. What I am trying to say is these and most small handguns need to be held correctly in order for them to be reliable. I am not saying that is everyone's issue here but it can have a big bearing on the cycling of these guns.
WW
The reason that the Kahr PM-9 gets a pass is because there really is no competition in terms of 9mms that compact that are relatively commonly available.
I have a Kahr PM9 that works reliably. I have heard of others that don't. Some need a breaking in and others need to go back to the factory.
This could of been my post. I also got lucky with a flawless PM9.
I have a PM9. Love it... replaced my Kel-Tec P3AT as my primary carry. I still carry my Glock 27 when clothing allows it.
As for the Kahr... 160+ rounds through it without a SINGLE issue.
Glad yours works. I wanted to love mine but I could not get through 100 rounds before I have up.
Glad yours works. I wanted to love mine but I could not get through 100 rounds before I have up.
You must not have made it to Page 17 of your owners manual where it discusses the 200 round break-in recommendation.
http://www.kahr.com/PDF/kahrmanual.pdf
Followthehollow
01-21-11, 23:40
My Kahr PM9 has been more reliable than my 3rd gen Glock 17.
I'm not calling you a liar or anything, but that is a huge shock to me.
My Kahr PM9 has been more reliable than my 3rd gen Glock 17.
Anything is possible, but anecdotes only go so far. Any good mfgr can turn out a "one-of" lemon, and any poor mfgr can turn out a "one-of" great piece. I have a buddy with a High Standard .45 that (he says) has been flawless. And that same guy has a DPMS rifle that has worked great for a few thousand rounds (I believe it because I'm his unofficial gun plumber).
But it's a matter of odds. From what I read and have been told, and have observed, the odds of getting a smooth-running, trouble-free pistol are not as good from Kahr as with some other brands. Especially for the prices they charge, it seems to me that they should be consistently better than they are reputed to be.
I have had two PM9s. Both were reliable. I seem to have good luck. Almost every one of the zillion pistols I have owned has been reliable and run fine. The two I have had real problems with was (1) a Glock 17 :eek: and (2) a custom Novak's commander they eventually refunded my money on.
I shoot my Kahr Pm9 at least 50 rounds per week and sometimes as much as 150. I think they are excellent pistols for what they are meant for.
My PM9 has likewise been hammer-and-anvil reliable. No failures to feed, fire or eject, regardless of what ammo I've run through it. It has replaced the S&W J-Frame as my pocket carry of choice.
shooter521
01-22-11, 07:59
I have owned 6 different Kahr pistols over the years (K9, K40, K40 Elite 98, MK9, P380, P9) and have shot several others (E9, PM9, P45, CW9). Kahr does not "get a pass" from me (nor does Glock or S&W or anyone else), but IME, their quality and reliability have been quite good.
K9 = stone cold reliable from day one.
K40 = had numerous FTFeed issues at a class. Got the gun home and realized that 3 out of the 4 new mags I bought from an online vendor had 9mm followers in them. :eek: Replaced them with the correct part, and problem solved.
K40 Elite 98 = stone cold reliable, and a looker to boot!
MK9 = see K9 above
P380 = fantastic little gun; put 600 rounds through it without a bobble of any kind and no cleaning, before it got so gunked up that reliability was affected. Cleaned it, shot another 150 rounds without issue.
P9 = my only real "problem child". Mine's an early enough example that it had to undergo factory upgrades to the slide stop lever (x2) and slide stop spring retention plate (x1). It also had problems with the trigger pin walking out under recoil, which were fixed by reinstalling the pin opposite of the way shown in the exploded view :confused: Gun has had about 1000 trouble-free rounds through it since that fix.
Others' Kahrs I've fired:
E9 = needed some feed ramp polishing, and the original blued finish was crap. Other than that, worked OK.
PM9 = has been a buddy's EDC gun for several years. He shoots the snot out of it and has reported no problems. Did not witness any during my limited range time with it, either.
P45 = belonged to a friend; we took it to the range for the first time and had lots of feed problems, and the mag wanting to eject on its own during live fire. He sent it back to Kahr for warranty service and has not had any problems since its return.
CW9 = my other buddy's EDC gun. Seems to shoot just as well as my P9; neither my buddy nor I have experienced any problems with it.
HTH!
He started bitching about what pieces of sh!t they were.....well, he would hand it to me and I would fire round after round with nary an issue. What I am trying to say is these and most small handguns need to be held correctly in order for them to be reliable. I am not saying that is everyone's issue here but it can have a big bearing on the cycling of these guns.
WW
My thoughts as well. Got to keep the mitts off the slide, the slidestop and no limp wrist.
Anything is possible, but anecdotes only go so far. Any good mfgr can turn out a "one-of" lemon, and any poor mfgr can turn out a "one-of" great piece. I have a buddy with a High Standard .45 that (he says) has been flawless. And that same guy has a DPMS rifle that has worked great for a few thousand rounds (I believe it because I'm his unofficial gun plumber).
But it's a matter of odds. From what I read and have been told, and have observed, the odds of getting a smooth-running, trouble-free pistol are not as good from Kahr as with some other brands. Especially for the prices they charge, it seems to me that they should be consistently better than they are reputed to be.
To expand on this just a bit...
The Kahrs design, coupled with tight tolerances, make it very susceptible to tolerance stacking, or even problems from one part right at or out of spec.
For a single example of a design feature that adds a factor of complication, the feed ramp is offset from center. It lowers the barrel with resultant benefit in recoil, but there is no free lunch.
Now consider that machine tools wear with age and then produce a part of slightly different tolerance. Might be just within tolerance right before in perfect world the tool is replaced at the exact moment it produces out of tolerance. But then multiply that by several machine tools producing at different points in their wear. In robust, simple design this is less problematic.
And springs are another part critical on Kahrs.
I fully agree and have bitched that Kahr could & should spend more time "finishing" their product. I say that knowing that cost would be passed on to us. But the reality is that cost is already passed to us for that 200 rounds (minimum) of break-in.
The bottom line is they don't completely finish the product and so Kahrs need above average prep and care. If this is done it shaves the odds in your favor that you'll have a reliable weapon.
It does not eliminate the chance though, that a specimen will get in circulation that just has too many minor things that add up to "lemon".
So long as you know what you're getting into, it's fair enough.
Stay safe.
You must not have made it to Page 17 of your owners manual where it discusses the 200 round break-in recommendation.
http://www.kahr.com/PDF/kahrmanual.pdf
Well I was trying to be nice. Any gun that can not fire a complete magazine of ammo through it with out jamming is a piece of garbage and I will not trust my life with it. I'm not talking about simple jams requiring immediate action but tools to un-****. Also any gun that requires 200 rounds to break in is suspicious to me. What is there to break in? Seems like they should be shipping/selling guns that are ready to go out of the box. If they need to do a little more finish work before shipping they should do it. Don't ask me to round the rough edges off with 200 rounds. We issue our cops NIB Glock 22's and they run just fine out of the box.
Owners manuals are often written by lawyers. Read a S&W JFrame owners manual and it will tell you not to carry a round under the hammer. I know an idiot who used to carry his JFrame with 4 rounds in it because the manual said to! Most manuals also tell you not to carry a round chambered.
I bought these guns when the first came out. I think it was ten or more years ago. They may have fixed their problems. Mine were junk and were traded quickly.
They have adds with hot skinny women that say why carry a "block" when you could carry a Kahr. Well for me it is because my "block" always goes bang when I pull the trigger and always has. Even w/o a 200 round break in period.
I just read page 16 of the Kahr manual you linked keep to. This could have been part of my problem. "Do not chamber a round by pulling back on the slide and letting go of the slide this may cause the slide not to go fully I to battery." Well that is exactly how I've been taught to shoot gross motor skills vs fine motor skills.
If your DPMS, I mean Kahr, works well for you run with it. I had two and neither worked for me.
I'm not calling you a liar or anything, but that is a huge shock to me.
My training blog for the past year documents the malfunctions and round counts of all my pistols.
Kahr PM9 had zero malfunctions in 1175 rounds.
3rd gen Glock 17 had 5 malfunctions in 4500 rounds, most were horizontal FTEject where the spent casing flipped around and jammed backwards in the ejection port.
Glock 26 had zero malfunctions in 5600 rounds.
My H&K P2000 had 1 malfunction in 11,975 rounds.
I just read page 16 of the Kahr manual you linked keep to. This could have been part of my problem. "Do not chamber a round by pulling back on the slide and letting go of the slide this may cause the slide not to go fully I to battery." Well that is exactly how I've been taught to shoot
The Kahr has a very specific manual of arms when it comes to chambering a round.
You failed to follow these instructions and it's the guns fault?
:confused:
If all you'd been taught is the "C-clamp" grip for shooting revolvers and you tried using it on a semi-auto, who's fault would it be when you drew blood with the slide?
The Kahr has a very specific manual of arms when it comes to chambering a round.
You failed to follow these instructions and it's the guns fault?
:confused:
If all you'd been taught is the "C-clamp" grip for shooting revolvers and you tried using it on a semi-auto, who's fault would it be when you drew blood with the slide?
What do you propose would be the advantage to the Kahr over the PPS? They're the same price, and from a practical standpoint, equally concealable.
What do you propose would be the advantage to the Kahr over the PPS? They're the same price, and from a practical standpoint, equally concealable.
That damn safety in the adjustable grip inserts. :mad:
...thats the only reason I didn't get one. The Kahr is such a simple gun.
That damn safety in the adjustable grip inserts. :mad:
...thats the only reason I didn't get one.
How is that a problem?
The Kahr is such a simple gun.
Apparently not...I read somewhere (https://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=885215&postcount=62) that it has a non-standard manual-of-arms when chambering a round.
What do you propose would be the advantage to the Kahr over the PPS? They're the same price, and from a practical standpoint, equally concealable.
The PM9 is a pocket gun, the PPS isn't.
The PPS is the same size as a P9.
Right now the PM9 has no competition in its size envelope, it is the only true "pocket 9".
While .250" here and .125" there doesn't seem like much on paper, it's a huge amount when it comes to pocket guns.
I can (and do) pocket carry a P2000Sk, but when I need low profile the PM9 is light years ahead.
The PM9 is a pocket gun, the PPS isn't.
The PPS is the same size as a P9.
Right now the PM9 has no competition in its size envelope, it is the only true "pocket 9".
While .250" here and .125" there doesn't seem like much on paper, it's a huge amount when it comes to pocket guns.
I can (and do) pocket carry a P2000Sk, but when I need low profile the PM9 is light years ahead.
Maybe we're setting different standards for pocket pistols, then. I was thinking more along the lines of a reliable, concealable compact, single-stack 9mm pistol, not specifically a pocket pistol. I don't think 1/4 inch here and 1/8 inch there should require a compromise in reliability. If those are my choices, I'll carry a little larger but more reliable pistol IWB.
I said "specific" not "non-standard".
How is using the lever "non-standard"?
I will backtrack and agree that using the slide release is not "non-standard". It wasn't exactly what I meant, please excuse my lack of clarity. I've been taught both ways, and I believe that if the pistol doesn't work both ways, that's non-standard. Heat-of-the-moment, if my fine motor skills are gone like all my firearms trainers have always said they will be, I may have no option but to rack the slide. When looking for a compact 9 to carry, I decided I wanted a pistol that would be maximally reliable under the maximum number of circumstances. I elected to forgo pocketability in favor of reliability.
I'm glad your PM9 has been reliable for you and meets your needs. My experiences and opinions don't make it any less so.
How is that a problem?
Apparently not...I read somewhere (https://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=885215&postcount=62) that it has a non-standard manual-of-arms when chambering a round.
How is a problem? Remove/lose/break the grip insert and the gun in completely inoperable. Thats terrible; possibly much worse than the XD and its grip safety.
I was mentioning Kahr's simplicity from build standpoint. But, standard manual of arms will chamber a round a Kahr however standard becomes non-standard in different user's hands. You can definately sling shot a round into chamber, you just need to know what you are doing...Kahr's steep feed ramp is just less forgiving.
My Kahr has 600 rounds through it without a single hick up. The thing is awesome.
joe
Apparently not...I read somewhere (https://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=885215&postcount=62) that it has a non-standard manual-of-arms when chambering a round.
Pulling back on the slide is the only way that I ever chamber the first round on my PM9. Never have I had an issue. If the gun is new and needing to be broken inn I could see how Kahr would want to list this in the manual. It is total BS that is written for people who should not be dropping a slide on any semiauto pistol(aka weak handed women who should have got a revolver.) As far as manual of arms go, a Colt revolver cylinder does not release the same way as a S&W cylinder. I say this has nothing to do with the reliablity of the gun. Goes back to training with what you carry.
......And springs are another part critical on Kahrs..........
I have a PM9, a K9 and a TP9. The PM9 needed a new recoil spring assembly at about 700 rds and again at about 1600 or so. The K9's recoil spring became noticeably weaker (by feel) at around 700-800 rds and got changed. The TP9 only has about 700 rds so I don't know about it yet.
IIRC a Kahr CS rep told me that all Kahrs (regardless of caliber and configuration)need new recoil springs every 1-1.5K rds.
How is a problem? Remove/lose/break the grip insert and the gun in completely inoperable. Thats terrible; possibly much worse than the XD and its grip safety.
While I agree that incorporating inoperability into the grip insert of a PPS is kind of silly, I don't see how it's a problem. Why would I ever remove it? (therefore how could I ever lose it?) As to breakage, I'm not sure how that could happen and I have a PPS as does my wife. The gun's been around for years now...do you have some examples of broken grip inserts rendering the pistol inoperable? I haven't seen any, but would like to know about it if it's a reported problem.
The Kahr has a very specific manual of arms when it comes to chambering a round.
You failed to follow these instructions and it's the guns fault?
:confused:
If all you'd been taught is the "C-clamp" grip for shooting revolvers and you tried using it on a semi-auto, who's fault would it be when you drew blood with the slide?
I would say it is a serious design fault. Slingshoting the slide is the standard manual of arms. Changing that is a Huge Fail.
I have no idea if I was using the slide release on the Kahr's more than a decade ago. There is a 50/50 chance I was. I know today I am not. Anyone know when the MK's were released? My MK's were ordered up as soon as they were avaliable. The gun should run either way. Glock teaches it and designed it a different way. If you add an extended slide lock/release to the Glock then teach it that way as you say Vickers does that is cool too. We allow the extended release so one hand reloads are easier/faster. It is really a training issue.
When I do vapor lock (on the range) and use the slide release/lock on my glock it still goes into battery and fires (as my firearms instructor yells at me for using the slide lock.) When the stakes are higher it will do the same. It should be the same for the Kahr. That is a very common if not standard manual of arms for a pistol. Pull the slide back and let it slam home on a live round.
The way we're teaching one handed reloads and malfunction drills is to hook the rear sight on something (a belt, holster, boot heel) and rack. What do we do with the Kahar and its special manual of arms add another two steps for the the wounded student to rack lock to the rear and then release the slide with the slide release? Again Huge Fail! Standards keep people alive. A gun that finicky is a range toy not a fighting tool
I also smiled when I read the first page/cover of the manual and it said warning this weapon will fire when the trigger is pulled. No shit really?
Pulling back on the slide is the only way that I ever chamber the first round on my PM9. Never have I had an issue. If the gun is new and needing to be broken inn I could see how Kahr would want to list this in the manual. It is total BS that is written for people who should not be dropping a slide on any semiauto pistol(aka weak handed women who should have got a revolver.) As far as manual of arms go, a Colt revolver cylinder does not release the same way as a S&W cylinder. I say this has nothing to do with the reliablity of the gun. Goes back to training with what you carry.
Right and a Ruger revolver opens a third way. Holsters are a other issue to consider. I issue our guys ALS off duty holsters so they have the same draw on and off duty. I don't want one of my officers dying with a gun in their holster because they went for the ALS lever and were carrying for example a Serpa holster they have very low reps with. When I carried an 070 holster I always went for the two snaps even when drawing from an open top or pancake holster. The draw was burned in my muscle memory.
I have had a kahr, and a friend had one. Both were crap and both got sold.
I have had a kahr, and a friend had one. Both were crap and both got sold.
Nahh you just didn't follow the instructions on page 16&17 of the owners manual. :rolleyes:
I have had a kahr, and a friend had one. Both were crap and both got sold.
Kinda like gen 4 Glocks...
Nahh you just didn't follow the instructions on page 16&17 of the owners manual. :rolleyes:
Is that the page that says this pistol makes a better trout line weight then handgun.:haha:
Beat Trash
01-22-11, 13:31
I have a PM9 that I bought used, but like new from a dealer in 2005. It has had maybe about 500 rds through it. So far no issues.
It gets carried as a pocket gun on those rare days I can't carry something else.
It's smaller, flatter and easier to shoot effectively than my 642.
Carrying spare ammo and reloading a semi auto vs. a revolver is a no-brainer.
My next step up is a Glock 26 that lives in a FIST kydex pocket holster. Using cargo type shorts pocket, I can pocket carry this Glock in the summer.
While I can shoot my PM9 more effectively than my S&W 642, I can shoot rings around both with a Glock 26.
I have debated getting a PPS to replace the PM9. The logic being I could shoot the PPS at the same level as the Glock 26 vs. the PM9.
The thing preventing me from doing this is that the PPS is really close to the size and weight of the Glock 26. Bot guns are larger and heavier enough than the PM9 to not work well as a pocket gun when I need one.
I started to pull the plug and get the PPS last week anyway. But then I started hearing rumors about a M&P single stack. Our Departments LE Sales Rep told us about these rumors for 3 years, always saying it was coming out in about 6 months. Finally he said last fall that's it's not going to happen. Who knows... I hope it happens. It was supposed to be about the same size as the 9mm Chief's Special was. But I'll believe it when I actually see one.
I'm not too impressed with the new Ruger. It looks like a jazzed up KelTec. The new Sig? I wasn't impressed with the Sig 250. I'm not holding my breath for the new Sig to be able to hit the market w/o issues.
So for my pocket gun needs, the PM9 is currently it.
I have heard enough about issues with them though that I would be cautious about recommending one to someone without their being willing to test it, and risk having to sell it at a loss if their particular gun was not reliable. So for me, Kahr does not get a free ride at all.
I've had really great experiences with a sample of 2 Kahrs: my own PM9 and a P9 of my Dad's. Both have been extremely reliable, both less than 4 years old. Before purchasing, I too researched online and saw that while the majority of PM9/P9 owners were satisfied, it seemed a sizable minority reported either not liking the gun, or having issues.
Here are a few things I've observed, no hard proof, but what I thought after comparing my Kahrs to a G19 and M&P's I've owned:
* A Kahr PM9, IMO, cannot be as durable as a full-size reliable polymer like a G19, an HK P30, or an M&P. It's just not easy to manufacture a subcompact that will run as long--especially under rough conditions--as their larger counterparts. Subcompacts obviously place size ahead of ultra-long-term durability.
* A Kahr PM9, in general, is also not going to be as reliable as the the more proven, duty-sized polymer guns. I would fully expect that if you took a G19, a P30, an M&P9, and a PM9, and did enough testing to find out how many failures and stoppages they average per thousand rounds, the Kahr would have the highest rate of stoppage/failure.
* But here's the point: even though the PM9 may be less durable/reliable than the best of the duty-size polymer guns, that is not to say the PM9 is UNreliable. My expectation is that if you test them, and if they work well and are reliable under range-testing, they will serve as a good backup or lightweight carry gun. You do need to take more care with these to maintain: they are not as bomb-proof as a G19.
I think some folks maybe took the TRUE statement that the subcompact PM9's are less reliable than their duty-size counterparts, and they confused that with the notion that PM9's are unreliable. That has NOT been the case, in my experience and also I think for most current Kahr owners. I think the large majority of PM9's today are "adequately reliable for CCW", and will do the job if you do yours, even though they may not have the stellar reliability of a G19. Again, no hard proof, but it's what I think after owning and comparing a number of these pistols, plus being in discussions like this one. A surprising little factoid: my PM9 has actually had less total stoppages/failures in its life than 2 of my early M&P's, which experienced repeated striker breakages (S&W has now solved that issue). It has really been a remarkable gun, considering that it's a subcompact that fires 9mm rounds and only weighs ~ 14 oz. A bonus? It's one of the few DAO triggers I've ever thought were ok out of the box.
While I agree that incorporating inoperability into the grip insert of a PPS is kind of silly, I don't see how it's a problem. Why would I ever remove it? (therefore how could I ever lose it?) As to breakage, I'm not sure how that could happen and I have a PPS as does my wife. The gun's been around for years now...do you have some examples of broken grip inserts rendering the pistol inoperable? I haven't seen any, but would like to know about it if it's a reported problem.
Haven't heard of a problem with it, but Murphy's Law...so I'm definitely not comfortable with the idea of having it on a gun. Same reason I don't like internal locks, magazine disconnects etc. But even with a magazine disconnect, you are more likely to have a spare mag on you.
Haven't heard of a problem with it, but Murphy's Law...so I'm definitely not comfortable with the idea of having it on a gun. Same reason I don't like internal locks, magazine disconnects etc. But even with a magazine disconnect, you are more likely to have a spare mag on you.
Well, I have heard of a lot of problems with the Kahr, one of the reasons I went with the Walther which is reputed to be reliable.
I've had an itch for a PM9 for about a year now. Every time I get close to buying one, I back out because of all the horror stories. They seem like great guns if you get one that runs, but the amount of issues they have is scary. The complaints run the gamut from fit/finish and barrel peening to FTEs and FTFs.
Due to the large amount of unhappy Kahr owners, I really have to question relying on one for my life. I'm curious why Kahr firearms are held in such high regard in this forum, and why they command their high price.
So, why do you guys continue to rank Kahr as top-notch firearms when they have such poor performance records?I bought a Kahr PM9 last year as a CCW after 500 rounds so far not a hicup one useing blaser,american eagle,and winchester ranger ammo.I would buy another in a heart beat.coobie
1_click_off
01-23-11, 09:52
I owned a Kahr PM9 for a couple months and a Kahr PM45 for a couple weeks. Most unreliable pieces of shit I've owned. The PM45 went back the second day of ownership, due to FTF issues. They sent it back with FTE issues. 500-rounds and things got worse. I ditched it at a huge loss with disclosure and moved on.
Never again. When I need a pocket gun, it's a J-frame, period.
I had the same issue with mine. Found the recoil spring was not the correct length. If I needed to extract a live round, the bullet would not clear the chamber. I called Kahr, sent a new spring and then I could not pull the slide back far enough to chamber a round. I called Kahr back and they stated that they cut the springs long and should be trimed to fit. I slowly started clipping the original spring 1/8 coil at a time until I had clipped off 3/4 of a coill. Since the spring mod, it has worked perfect. Before all this, it was a single shot. It just totally amazed me that a firearm with a cost in the $650-700 range does not have a spring designed differently so it can be properly tuned at the factory and not sent out as a hit and miss item.
I carry mine almost every day now.
arizona98tj
01-23-11, 17:29
I bought a PM9 a year or two ago. Cleaned it, took it to the range, and ran my reloads through it until I felt comfortable hitting what I was aiming at. No problems. After determining what carry ammo I was going to use.....ran a bunch of that through it also. Every now and again, I take a break at the range and run a half dozen mags through the PM9, just to keep me in shape. I've had no problems with it. I always slingshot the slide, just because I can. :D It is no more nor no less reliable than any other handgun I own and carry for CCW, although it is most commonly the one you will find on my hip for that task.
As far as getting a pass....well....at least it didn't get voted gun of the year like my S&W M&P15-22.....which has a well documented history of suffering from OOB discharges (yes, mine did too and blew the extractor out).:rolleyes:
500rds and counting on my pm9 with no problems. FMJ, hollow point, +p, steel cased, its all gone boom. With the 1rd extended grip I shoot so naturally its unreal for such a tiny pistol. I have not met anyone in person who has had a major problem with a kahr.
They don't from me...
And trust me when I tell you that didn't feel too good when it happened:
http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad264/45fmjoe/KB/kahr1.jpg
http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad264/45fmjoe/KB/kahr2.jpg
http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad264/45fmjoe/KB/brass.jpg
http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad264/45fmjoe/KB/brass2.jpg
http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad264/45fmjoe/KB/brass3.jpg
willowofwisp
01-23-11, 20:25
factory ammo?
They don't from me...
And trust me when I tell you that didn't feel too good when it happened:
Looks like it held up to a KaBoom pretty well.
I've seen Glocks and H&K's with the entire frame split down the side due to faulty ammo.
From the depth of the firing pin indentation that wasn't an "out of battery" issue, it looks like a bad round to me.
I had a Khar MK9 for a while and it was extremely reliable with any load I put through it,but it shot all over the place,and no it wasn't me,it was the pistol.
I think the steel models are definetally more reliable than the poly frame guns,judging from all I've spoken to who owned the PM9's,etc.
I would give Khar another shot if I ran up on an original K9 in decent condition, It's really not that heavy and a good size for concealability.
They don't from me...
And trust me when I tell you that didn't feel too good when it happened:
http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad264/45fmjoe/KB/kahr1.jpg
http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad264/45fmjoe/KB/kahr2.jpg
http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad264/45fmjoe/KB/brass.jpg
http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad264/45fmjoe/KB/brass2.jpg
http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad264/45fmjoe/KB/brass3.jpg
How is that Kahr fault? They didn't make the ammo.
I am absolutely convinced that lubrication is the key to making these weapons work. I use TW25 grease and strongly believe because of tight tolerances and the propensity for oils to "go away" that grease is the way to go. Kahrs don't work dry, or even semi-dry. They should come with a big container of TW25, which would save Kahr untold dollars in customer service.
Any gun that cannot run on everything from WD-40 to motor oil is unacceptable.
I have a PM9, VB**** all black, with night sights purchased in early 2004, I had the barrel and recoil assembly replaced during the recall around 2005. I had 2 failures to feed in the first 200 rounds with the first barrel. I can either sling shot or release the slide, although slide release "feels better"
Since then I've put around 1000 or so rounds through the gun, including about 70 yesterday consisting of very light 115 gr. FMJ reloads and WWW 147 factory loads, all without failure of any kind.
I've run it dirty and dry as well as wet and greased.
At 7 yards I can consistently and quickly double tap into about a 3" group at POA. I've carried this in my right front pocket in a $13 Desantis pocket holster loaded up with 147 grain Gold Dot's almost everyday since I purchased it, along with the 7 round spare.
My general routine is to run a mag or two through it every now and then, I seldom run a long range routine with it.
I also have a newer S&W 442 with CT, (wife's gun)it carries as well in front pocket but fares better without a holster, when it comes time to put rounds on target, forget about it, for me there really isn't any comparison, the PM9 wins hands down every time, every load.
Despite this, there are attributes of the snubby I like, because it's a revolver it has to be more reliable and can be fired from inside a jacket pocket if necessary. Nostalgia it was the "pocket pistol" of yesteryear and in the past I carried various S&W and Colt snubs.
It's simple and I thought it would be a good first CCW for the wife, big mistake, the flinch and some sort of tendinitis she may or may not have developed from the intense recoil is going to take some time to correct, even with the mildest factory ammo it's a handful.
Not to mention it's giving her way to much trouble in keeping rounds on target, she does much better with the PM9, hindsight being 20/20 I wish I had gone this route to begin with.
She runs her S&W 9c pretty well and that is helping her overcome the "flinch" but it's to large for everyday purse carry. She needs a small, concealable, everyday, all the time gun and I really don't want to go below 9mm/38 Special.
When it comes to her BCM middy with a red dot she shoots like a champ and gives me a run for the money.
So I'm in the market for another small 9mm, the only other small, accurate, reliable "contender" that I see on the market right now might be the new Kimber Solo? I'm not up to speed on all the latest offerings out there. But for the moment, I'm leaning towards another PM9.
FmjJoe, either I missed something or not enough info. Yep, I've heard of PM9 kabooms and it concerns me too. My FFL blew one up twice, on the other hand I wouldn't shoot his reloads either.
GhostOfWar
02-03-11, 21:06
I am in the same boat as a few of the other guys here. I had a 642, but carry a PM9 now. I carried the 642 for years while I played around with some compact 9mms. I thought I had it all figured out when I got a Para Carry 9, but that didn't last long. After more shopping and research, I found the PM9. I read up on it, and decided to give it a try after I found that Cylinder and Slide offer custom PM9 packages and complete guns."They don't work on crap guns, so they must be pretty good," was my thought. I bought a plain Jane PM9 and have put over a thousand rounds through it. I did have a couple failure to feed during the break in, but I contribute that to the very dirty steel case ammo I was shooting.
Mine has run flawlessly since break in. I've run Ranger 127 +p+ through it, without problems. I carried that load for a while, but swapped over to Gold Dot short barrel. It makes pretty good difference in recoil and flash. I ended up selling the 642 after comparing the two at the range. The Kahr is skinnier, easier to shoot, holds more rounds, faster to reload, and has a better trigger pull.
As for guns not running, I sent back 2 M&P9s for different issues. The one I kept runs like a champ now, but it took some work to get it that way.
dirksterg30
02-04-11, 10:35
So I'm in the market for another small 9mm, the only other small, accurate, reliable "contender" that I see on the market right now might be the new Kimber Solo? I'm not up to speed on all the latest offerings out there. But for the moment, I'm leaning towards another PM9.
The PM9 is a good choice, but your may want to take a look at the Walther PPS. Think of it as a Glock-like single stack but with a triggerguard mag release.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.