Virginia Residents - GMU is considering a new gun ban

[ringmaster520]

George Mason University in Northern Virginia is, for reasons I have not been able to understand, considering banning firearms on campus including those carried by legal concealed handgun permit holders.

I personally think this is a bad idea not only because it limits the right of self defense given to the residents of Virginia, but I think it is quite possibly an illegal ban in that it superceeds the laws of the state. I have written GMU about my opinion and would like to ask that those who agree (even for reasons different than mine) send an email to the GMU Administrator voicing your views. The cut-off date for comments is September 5 and no public hearings are scheduled. I have asked that the comment period be extended 30 days and that a public hearing be scheduled.

Thanks for your support! Here's the text of my email:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kenneth W. Hubble
Agency Regulatory Coordinator
George Mason University
khubble@gmu.edu

Dear Mr. Hubble,

I am OPPOSED to GMU's proposed regulation, 8VAC35-60.

I believe that 8VAC35-60 is:

• Illegal as GMU has no statutory power to ban lawfully carried firearms, and

• Dangerous as it serves to protect the lives of criminals while leaving students, employees, and visitors helpless to criminal attack.

The General Assembly has reserved control of firearms to itself with the only exceptions (that I am aware of) being for local control of hunting and discharge of firearms. There is no law (again that I am aware of) that authorizes the University to regulate the legal possession of firearms by citizens of the US and residents of Virginia who have completed the requirements of concealed carry imposed by the Virginia General Assembly.

Virginia Tech had a ban on firearms and we all know about that outcome -- the innocent complied with the ban and died while the criminal violated the ban and ruined many, many lives. GMU students, employees, and visitors and guests would fare no better if disarmed by GMU.

Your Campus Police, like Virginia Tech’s Campus Police, is neither able or equipped or trained to protect the campus community from attacks such as that inflicted by Cho. No matter what your Campus Police say about how well prepared they are, they simply can’t do it. No police department can, on campus or off. Protection against violent crime is an individual responsibility and the State of Virginia has elected to allow law abiding citizens of the US who are residents of Virginia the right to defend themselves by carrying concealed firearms.

The university campus should be a place of sanctuary, a place where the focus of life is learning and education. But it should not be a place where state law is put in check at the doors to the campus. It is sad that people like Cho want to hurt innocent people, but it is a reality we face in our culture today. It is very disturbing to me to realize that GMU wants to disarm Virginia's concealed weapons permit (CWP) holders. To me this shows a lack of understanding of the world around us and a misguided belief that the students, faculty, staff and visitors are in a safe zone once they enter your campus.

As a parent of a UVA graduate and a CWP holder who strongly believes in the right of individuals to defend themselves against violent attack, I am formally requesting that:

• The comment period be extended by an additional 30 days (to October 5th) to solicit additional public comment, and

• A public hearing be held concerning the proposed regulation

Sincerely,

[Name included in email but deleted from this post]

[M4arc]

Thanks for posting this. I sent an email to the address the VCDL posted.

[ringmaster520]

Thanks for posting this. I sent an email to the address the VCDL posted.

I revised a letter I saw through a thread posted by VCDL and sent it to Mr. Hubble. VCDL suggested we ask for a 30 day extension and public hearing. I received a reply from Mr. Hubble this afternoon who stated in essense that this regulation requires no public hearing and (at least I think he said) there would be no extension. I replied to his email this afternoon with a question about what type of comments he needs to hear to consider withdrawing the regulation. Still waiting his reply.

The bottom line seems to be the extension and public hearing that VCDL suggested we ask for will not happen. Hopefully Mr. Hubble reply with some indication of what an effective public comment looks like.

[graffex]

You'd think people would learn after the Virgina Tech shooting :rolleyes:

[blackscot]

......it is quite possibly an illegal ban in that it superceeds the laws of the state......

Not really. State law includes a blanket ban on schools and on-site alchohol venues but also leaves open the option for pretty much anyplace else to impose their own prohibition, with the stipulation that the rule is prominantly posted.

So for instance any store owner can put a sign at the front door legally requiring you to not bring in your gun.

Some government entities also have individual prohibitions. Henrico County had banned all firearms from public parks, which pissed me off because they would never post this information at the park entrances or anywhere else. They were considering a repeal a few months ago, but I don't know if it ever passed. There are other examples in No. VA, Richmond City, and parts of Tidewater.

Mason is a State univiersity, correct?


You'd think people would learn after the Virgina Tech shooting :rolleyes:

There is what to us would seem a reverse logic working here, but maybe the GMU officials will "see the light" and understand that CCW's are issued based on the idea that individuals possess the right to protect themselves, versus relying solely on government instititutions.

[ringmaster520]

Not really. State law includes a blanket ban on schools and on-site alchohol venues but also leaves open the option for pretty much anyplace else to impose their own prohibition, with the stipulation that the rule is prominantly posted.

So for instance any store owner can put a sign at the front door legally requiring you to not bring in your gun.

Some government entities also have individual prohibitions. Henrico County had banned all firearms from public parks, which pissed me off because they would never post this information at the park entrances or anywhere else. They were considering a repeal a few months ago, but I don't know if it ever passed. There are other examples in No. VA, Richmond City, and parts of Tidewater.

Mason is a State univiersity, correct?.

GMU is a public university and I'm not sure anyone really knows what the law actually says. Govenor Kaine today issued the VT Massacre Report. Page 74 talks about guns on campus.

Report of the VT Review Panel (http://www.governor.virginia.gov/TempContent/techPanelReport.cfm)


There is what to us would seem a reverse logic working here, but maybe the GMU officials will "see the light" and understand that CCW's are issued based on the idea that individuals possess the right to protect themselves, versus relying solely on government instititutions.

The report addresses this to a degree. Obviously the panel does not recommend allowing legal permit holders the right to self protection and they bring up a point I have not considered. I still disagree with them, but check out what they say and see what you think.

What they didn't say anywhere in the report was how many of those killed, if any, were CHP holders. There's also a potential issue regarding use of deadly force.

Basically as I understand VA law, a CHP holder who engages a violent attacker, kills the attacker, but in the meylee accidently kills one of his fellow students could be charged with murder. That would really suck. He prevented god knows how many deaths by killing the attacker yet is charged with murder. Even if found not guilty, he could end up spending a great deal of time and money defending his action. Is that possible?

[blackscot]

.......he could end up spending a great deal of time and money defending his action. Is that possible?

From everything I've seen/heard/read anywhere, if you ever have to defend yourself with lethal force -- under whatever circumstances and however justified -- count on a legal hellride.

[John_Wayne777]

Not really. State law includes a blanket ban on schools and on-site alchohol venues but also leaves open the option for pretty much anyplace else to impose their own prohibition, with the stipulation that the rule is prominantly posted.


No.

State law does not ban firearms on the campus of a college or university except for VCU. If you look at the code of Virginia, VCU is the only one listed. The "school" ban applies to k-12 schools...not colleges and universities.

Colleges and universities can set a policy of no guns on campus, but that policy does not carry the force of law, meaning that if you are caught on their campus with a legally carried weapon the best they can do is tell you to leave, and charge you with trespass if you don't. If you are a student, faculty, or staff, they can expel/terminate you for carrying but not even charge you with trespass.



So for instance any store owner can put a sign at the front door legally requiring you to not bring in your gun.


Yes, a private property owner can post their business....

Universities and colleges in Virginia, however, are TAXPAYER funded operations and have no such right to tell law abiding citizens they can't carry weapons. One university was challenged on their no guns policy and essentially settled out of court with a promise not to take any action against a member of the public who was legally carrying.



Some government entities also have individual prohibitions. Henrico County had banned all firearms from public parks, which pissed me off because they would never post this information at the park entrances or anywhere else.


Lots of localities post all sorts of bans that are illegal because of Virginia's pre-emption law. The VCDL has been taking governments to task over that very issue for years.



Mason is a State univiersity, correct?


Yes. And the point here is that GMU (or any other public university) should not be able to tell law abiding adults with permits that they can't carry an effective means of personal defense.

I can carry a concealed weapon into the capitol building in Richmond while the general assembly is in session thanks to my permit. If I am not going to shoot up the capitol building, it is highly unlikely I am going to shoot up the local university.

[John_Wayne777]

From everything I've seen/heard/read anywhere, if you ever have to defend yourself with lethal force -- under whatever circumstances and however justified -- count on a legal hellride.

Like anywhere else it depends on the circumstances.

Self defense is an affirmative defense under Virginia law, so it is a little more difficult than in some states. Nevertheless, self defense uses of firearms happen all the time in Virginia with no ill consequences to the person defending themselves, criminally or civilly.

If another Cho chains the doors of another university and walks into a classroom to gun down as many people as he can and a person inside that classroom opens fire to stop his hostile actions and an innocent bystander is injured, I don't think you are likely to see him/her crucified for his/her actions.

In a use of lethal force case the standard isn't perfection, it is the alternative to the actions taken. If there is a nutcase trying to shoot the place up he's the one creating the dangerous situation, and nobody is required to sit by meekly and let him kill them because somebody might get hurt if they attempt to defend their life.

[ringmaster520]

Self defense is an affirmative defense under Virginia law, so it is a little more difficult than in some states.

In a use of lethal force case the standard isn't perfection, it is the alternative to the actions taken.

This begins to depart from my original post, and perhaps I should open a new thread, but in the meantime...

I understand VA use of deadly force laws (except in an owner's place of business or in a private home) assume the gun holder has "duty to retreat". Use of deadly force is an option only if there's no way to retreat.

It is my understanding that FL recently changed their law to the "Stand Your Ground" standard, similar to the standard applied to our home and place of business laws. In FL it is perfectly legal to use deadly force before attempting to retreat.

(1) Is my assessment even remotely accurate?

(2) Are FL CHP holders less likely to suffer financial ruin if they defend themselves under their law?

(3) Is the VCDL working to change VA use of force laws?

[blackscot]

.....The "school" ban applies to k-12 schools...not colleges and universities

That's what I meant.

[John_Wayne777]

I understand VA use of deadly force laws (except in an owner's place of business or in a private home) assume the gun holder has "duty to retreat". Use of deadly force is an option only if there's no way to retreat.


I've never heard "duty to retreat" used in conjunction with Virginia self defense before, and I've never seen any such referrence to a duty to retreat in public by the VCDL, so I doubt there is a duty to retreat in public. That being said, I'm no lawyer or legal expert.



(1) Is my assessment even remotely accurate?


Dunno. I'm not a lawyer.



(2) Are FL CHP holders less likely to suffer financial ruin if they defend themselves under their law?


That's kind of hard to answer. The "stand your ground" laws and the various liability protection laws being passed around the country do protect you if your shoot is judged to be righteous.

In Virginia we don't have those laws on the books at the moment. Despite that fact lawsuits or criminal prosecutions against law abiding citizens who defend themselves aren't that common to my knowledge.



(3) Is the VCDL working to change VA use of force laws?

Various legislators friendly to gun rights in Virginia have introduced legislation to eliminate all civil liability in shootings ruled to be justified, and to bring the "castle doctrine" formally into Virginia law.

The VCDL has actively lobbied the legislature to support passage of measures like that.