View Full Version : Some thoughts on M4C.net
Not sure how this post is going to turn out guys so bear with me!
It seems that there is a lot going on with the site lately. New members who don't read the mission statement, some arguments in GD leading to a number of locked threads, and a general shortening of tempers.
The thing that really got me thinking about this is the religion thread from last week. A person I respect more than just about anyone else I know and look up to as a mentor made the statement that he had been reading my posts on there and wondered if I thought I was smarter then him because I didn't share his faith.
This of course took me aback because I never meant to imply that at all. I wasn't able to respond on there and make myself more clear because the thread was locked first. But it did get me thinking a lot about the board and how I and other act here. The goals, general attitudes here, and people involved are all a bit different than most other boards.
Here is my take on things:
We are not TOS, The High Road, The Firing Line, Glocktalk, or any number of other general boards. This is a board for anyone with the mindset that good enough, isn't. Not just with firearms but with many points in our life. I know that if I ask a question here I will get a no BS answer that will point me in the right direction.
The more experienced members are not going to hand you the information usually. They are going to help you figure it out for yourself, essentially they are going to make you learn if you are willing to. And if you are not willing to learn then you probably wont' last long. We have all seen the "What is best" and "Should I buy X or Y" threads. I like that the answer here isn't always "You should buy Z" It tends to be more along the lines of "X, and Y are great. So is Z so check them out and see what works best for you".
It has fostered a sense of community that I don't often see on forums. I touched on this in a thread a moth or so ago about how little I know and how M4C has helped me start down the path to learning. However I feel it bears mentioning again.
We seem to be a diverse group. Christians and Atheists, Strong conservatives and moderates with a liberal or two mixed in. And we all seem to share a type A personality. In addition I know that all of us are either Wolves or Sheepdogs. So anytime you get a group like this together you are going to have some conflict. People are going to disagree on some topic or another. And sometimes the fights get downright ugly.
The real difference here though is that I think people seem to leave that all behind very quickly. Maybe it is for the good of the board, but I feel that it is more than that.
The type of people that this board tends to attract(and that stay here) are a cut above the rest. They are men that will argue with you till blue in the face over a topic but then have your back 5 minutes later.
For instance, I am pretty sure that BKB and myself will never agree on a religious topic. EVER. However I respect that man greatly for all he believes in and would support him in just about anything because he is a man of Character and honor. (Sorry man you were the best example given the religion thread from last week.)
I don't think this is an isolated case on this board. It is a direct result of the culture the people have run this board have tried to foster. And I am proud to be a member here because of it.
I feel that lately we have had a lot of things going on here on the board. But I ask every member new and old to show your fellow members the respect they deserve. Keep M4C.net the site that it is. Make it better. Continue to build the community here so that we never become just another random firearms board.
Sorry to ramble/rant on. I just wanted to say my bit.
Oh and use the damn search function! ;)
A surefire way to set men who'd normally be best shooting buds against one another and turn them into bitter adversaries is to discuss politics and religion.
lethal dose
01-20-11, 09:12
Solid post, brah.
montanadave
01-20-11, 09:17
A surefire way to set men who'd normally be best shooting buds against one another and turn them into bitter adversaries is to discuss politics and religion.
Tru dat.
But on a more positive note, discussions of a political or religious nature tend to adopt a more tolerant and restrained tone when the participants are equally (and heavily) armed. :laugh:
A surefire way to set men who'd normally be best shooting buds against one another and turn them into bitter adversaries is to discuss politics and religion.
Normally I would agree with you my friend. And I guess that was kind of my point. It seems like here the politics and religion blow up, and then are quickly forgotten. Maybe I am over-thinking it or wearing too rosy of glasses. But it seems like the respect this board cultivates overshadows the disagreements.
Kwelz,
Extremely well said, good post. There are definitely top notch guys and Americans on here. There are guys with differing political and religious views. I compare this to my time in the Army. There were soldiers that were in my unit that I did not get along with or rarely agreed with what one of them said or believed. But if someone screwed with me that person's life at that point and time was over. Those same soldiers had my back and I did the same for them. Like you said Kwelz alot of guys on here are of the same mindset and this comes from mutual respect.
Some of the newer members just don't have that respect for others on here and it really concerns me how often this is happening as of late. There was a guy who started a thread and one of the staff members made a funny comment and received a very sarcastic reply about his post. The staff member took it very lightly but I was just furious. This site IS unique and special. Have respect for others on here, especially the staff members, SME's, IP's and the vast majority of senior members. This is their house and you are invited to come in. If you weren't taught respect or don't reciprocate it to others you will not last long here.
-Jax
Littlelebowski
01-20-11, 09:36
A surefire way to set men who'd normally be best shooting buds against one another and turn them into bitter adversaries is to discuss politics and religion.
And law enforcement :D
A surefire way to set men who'd normally be best shooting buds against one another and turn them into bitter adversaries is to discuss politics and religion.
I completely agree, and that's why I'm avoiding any political an religious conversation on this forum form now on.
Littlelebowski
01-20-11, 11:48
This would be a better, more focused forum without General Discussion. I know for a fact that the mods would have a lot less bullshit to put up with.
I personally am a guilty one wrt GD forum but I think the place would be a lot less interesting without it. I like the technical forums etc and those are the meat. However, you tend to get to know folks better with the GD and that is part of the experience and part of what helps you to relate to people. On a non-technical level.
While I have disagreements over politics or religion with people, I don't respect those people any less because they disagree with me. Lots of folks in here I would consider "friends"[1] including those who share a different faith or none at all. But the GD helps me to get to know people better and helps foster the sense of brotherhood (or sisterhood for the females here).
Not only do you get to have debates on various topics, but you get to share your births, illnesses and injuries, and other events in your life. People need to share stuff and be cared about and this is a "safe" way for guys to do that ;)
And it also helps as a conduit for political information -- ie, if a bad bill is introduced, I can get a heads-up here. (Separate from political discussion).
M4C is the only forum I regularly hang out on.
[1] as best as you can make friends you've never met face to face
Jay Cunningham
01-20-11, 18:56
And law enforcement :D
And unions. ;)
Suwannee Tim
01-20-11, 19:11
A couple of rules I apply to myself with more or less success is to eschew personal attacks and personal observations. The great majority of participants on this forum do as well which is appreciated. I think a resort to a personal attack is a good indication that someone is loosing an argument or has lost but is unwilling to admit defeat. Funny, I get attacked pretty regularly on the internet but almost never in person. It seems the protection of the distance and anonymity of the internet makes some folks a lot braver. I won't say anything on the internet that I will not say mano a mano. I think the fact that is very safe to be an asshole on the internet puts any forum on a very slippery slope towards chaos which has to be actively resisted if you want to prevent a slide. I find in very telling when someone makes a personal insult against someone they barely know.
I disagree that the GD is necessarily a bad feature. I think discussions deteriorate when personal shit is tossed in and I think the members should do more self-regulation by applying peer pressure against personal attacks to keep the quality of the discussions up and the work load of the mods down.
A surefire way to set men who'd normally be best shooting buds against one another and turn them into bitter adversaries is to discuss politics and religion.
I am buddies with U.S. Congresswoman Corrine Brown, she is a member of the gym I attend. I have shared the hot tub, steam room and sauna with her, walked her to her car at night, gotten her car and brought it to the door during a storm. We have talked about a lot of things, politics not one of them. I am sure I would never convince her of my views nor she convince me of her views. Unless you want to get pissed, and I don't, what is the point of such a discussion? Same holds true of religion. I avoided the "State of Christianity" thread for just that reason.
This would be a better, more focused forum without General Discussion. I know for a fact that the mods would have a lot less bullshit to put up with.
As I've stated before, I would be fully behind this.
A surefire way to set men who'd normally be best shooting buds against one another and turn them into bitter adversaries is to discuss politics and religion.
...and the Great Pumpkin
The_War_Wagon
01-21-11, 06:41
It seems that there is a lot going on with the site lately. New members who don't read the mission statement...
We are not TOS, The High Road, The Firing Line, Glocktalk, or any number of other general boards. This is a board for anyone with the mindset that good enough, isn't. Not just with firearms but with many points in our life. I know that if I ask a question here I will get a no BS answer that will point me in the right direction.
To cut to the heart of the matter, I think these two go hand in hand. Since many of us belong to other boards as well, and tend to point people here sometimes FOR those aforementioned NO BS answers, folks come FROM those other boards, where it IS a free-for-all, fling-much-poo, BS-types of places.
As things like, THE CHART (primarily), make the rounds, it's naturally going to draw more folks here - good & bad - and weeding will HAVE to take place. GD is already limited by having only members in good-standing with X number of posts, BEFORE they can post here. I think it's a Catch-22, but also a sign of growing pains.
Yeah, it makes more work for the mods, but we also want to continue to grow, and either attract the right kind of people, or at least, train those who DO come here, to be more genteel in their presentation.
Littlelebowski
01-22-11, 07:13
And unions. ;)
I don't judge you because of your civil union :D
This thread has good intentions, but it will turn sour before the end of page two. Marking it down now, so no one will be shocked later. ;)
Suwannee Tim
01-22-11, 17:18
And what, SHIVAN, do you predict will be the sourization mode?
A surefire way to set men who'd normally be best shooting buds against one another and turn them into bitter adversaries is to discuss politics and religion.
Depends on the man.
On TOS me and Old Painless had endless discussions on the subject, and I'm not sure I ever thought a bad thought about him. And I'm not sure he ever said a bad thing about me.
We of course had completely different opinions on the matter of religion, the difference seems to be he could support his opinions without simply telling me I'm wrong, can't understand Gods mysterious ways and will burn in hell and I could support my positions without telling him he was a delusional moron who worshiped fairy tales. There are a few people on this forum who can have the same discussions in the same fashion, the problem is those who can't.
Politics on the other hand is a bit trickier, because it isn't so much "differing opinions" as it is "things that are protected by the Constitution and things that are not." And if you are talking about threatening my "protected freedoms" I don't care what political party you come from, you are essentially the enemy.
This would be a better, more focused forum without General Discussion. I know for a fact that the mods would have a lot less bullshit to put up with.
I get that this forum is trying to be the "uncola" of the firearm forums, but if you eliminated GD you'd have nothing but a tech forum. And tech forums just don't have the same sense of community, and it is that aspect that most people enjoy.
While I understand you don't want nonsense like "Best caliber for zombies/dinosaurs/aliens" and "Can a plan take off on a conveyor belt?" topics, it is nice to talk about the stuff of life. And when most of us are seeking opinions, we are looking for opinions from people we respect, and that is hard to find in your own back yard sometimes.
If I want to evaluate my thinking or seek an outside perspective on something important, I'm not gonna ask some therapist who spends all day in a chair helping weak minded fools discover their inner child. I'm gonna ask people who are more like the kind of person I'm trying to be myself. And those questions usually aren't "What is the best BCG for my rifle?"
Army Chief
01-22-11, 17:29
Why do we always seem to feel the need to take things down this same heavily-rutted path? Off-topic discussions (in general) serve a very limited purpose here, and those that deal specifically with divisive themes benefit our cohort even less.
Gentlemen, I implore you in the name of keeping the peace: please knock it off.
AC
It has fostered a sense of community that I don't often see on forums.
In my opinion, this is what makes GD viable here in this otherwise very professional and particular forum. However some of the newer content seems to have been...questionable.
I just hate to see the waters being tested rather often by folks who either just can't seem to help themselves or are just plain dopey.
IMHO the post-count limits have completely solved the problem with GD. With that rule in place, the solution for those that object to GD is to stay out of GD.
And what, SHIVAN, do you predict will be the sourization mode?
You'll see, it's almost textbook repeatable. The responses to other responses will grow longer. The divide in understanding greater, and next thing you know it will become personally directed, and someone will take offense.
Call me 99.9999% certain.
You'll see, it's almost textbook repeatable. The responses to other responses will grow longer. The divide in understanding greater, and next thing you know it will become personally directed, and someone will take offense.
Call me 99.9999% certain.
How *dare* you say that to me?
:D
Suwannee Tim
01-22-11, 20:09
...next thing you know it will become personally directed...
This is the dividing point where things go downhill. It is topic independent. I have been insulted more in the technical threads than in GD, more by a wide margin. I think the answer is a swift rebuke to folks who make snarky remarks and personal insults, the rebuke coming from a third party. Kind of like using the "N" word. If you want to stir things up that is a good way to do it but it is not much done because the price is high, the price being social pressure. Another factor that drags things downhill is emotional involvement. I plan to never love anything that can't love me back and that emphatically includes rifles. I have had to work to come to that point and not everyone has put in that work. You insult my rifle, you haven't really done me any harm. If I were emotionally committed to the gun, it is a different matter. Then a dig at the rifle is perceived as an insult and reply is given in kind. You can help people avoid this kind of emotional response by urging them to calm down and stay rational.
Rmplstlskn
01-22-11, 21:17
Thanks for the reminder kwelz...
Sometimes reminders about civility and mature behavior on a medium, that for as long as I have been involved in computer technology (decades), has ALWAYS been prone to heated or misunderstood posts in forums, no matter what the subject...
It is posts likes these and MODS who smack threads up side the head to get them back in line, that keep it all going...
Rmpl
IMHO the post-count limits have completely solved the problem with GD. With that rule in place, the solution for those that object to GD is to stay out of GD.
Seems too simple.
:D
I just got into a sh*% storm on another forum with some guys that seem to be the type to be sitting on their porches with a piece of straw in their mouths playing a banjo. All I could think of was that if this was M4C, this would have been stopped. I was a member of TOS but I couldn't handle the childish BS and I was kinda shocked when I saw industry guys acting like they did. I like the people here and we are all human so we will never agree on everything. I was involved in a thread about police and even though it was closed, I never git butt hurt about the member's views on the police. The professionalism on M4C is unmatched and this is the reason I will be here to stay.
Thanks guys!
Suwannee Tim
01-23-11, 07:20
Something I want to point out is when I request civility I am doing so to prevent the slide of the thread into chaos, not because my tender feelings are at risk. The problem with a member objecting when they have been insulted is that the offender will then, more often than not take the "you are a crybaby" or "you are a whinny pussy" approach so, instead of shutting down the childish behavior, it has been given new energy. That's why I suggest a reprimand by a third party.
Heartland Hawk
01-23-11, 07:50
I have also seen an increase in the personal retort posts as well as an increase in the "Which rifle is better to kill zombie hordes with?" threads. I come here because that is a rarity here, and I really enjoy the caliber of posters here. I post in GD because it contains topics and theads that are germane to my interests. I don't post in the tech forums a lot because I don't have much to add that isn't posted by someone else. I agree that GD "fleshes out" the personalitites here and the SME's. I hope it stays.
Suwannee Tim
01-23-11, 08:38
I frequent this forum because there is a hell of a lot less nonsense to wade through when trying to find information or informed opinion. The above mentioned
"Which rifle is better to kill zombie hordes with?" is a good example. The personal shit adds a large amount of noise that has to be waded through to find information and sometimes the personal crap takes over and informed members loose interest in the thread leaving questions unanswered. More than once I have asked a question that has gone unanswered presumably because the informed folks have given up on the thread.
Suwannee Tim
01-23-11, 08:43
A suggestion: "The Official Personal Insults Thread" where members desiring to make such remarks would be directed. There is some value in personal insults as it allows members to gauge the perpetrator's maturity, purpose and seriousness. Knowing these things about a member allows me to make a more informed judgment of the member.
I love the resource that is M4Carbine. Lots of very knowledgeable folks here. And, the Mods do a good job of trying to keep things fairly civil and reasonably professional.
However.....
(you knew that was coming!)
I think the site is a wee bit too sensitive on certain subjects - especially, on 'LEO bashing.' It seems that 'LEO bashing' is the catch all reason to close any thread. I know there have been A LOT of problems with this in the past (esp. on other sites) but I think a few of the Mods are hypersensitive to this. It sort of reminds me of how 'racist' or 'NAZI' is used by people to just end discussion of things they don't want to think seriously about.
There is a lot of talk these days about budget cuts and deficit spending. I have not seen people take this problem this seriously ever. Over the next two years there will be a lot of serious national discussion on what and where to cut. In many local govts there are already battles taking place over police and FD budgets. Almost 2/3 of the Federal budget goes to the DoD or various intelligence and security programs. Here too, there will be a serious discussion of just how much of this stuff we can afford and how much of it is of any real value. I personally, would like to be able to discuss this seriously here without being called a rasists... ah, I mean anti-LEO.
Littlelebowski
01-23-11, 14:49
2/3rds of the federal spending is on entitlements (Social Security and Medicaid), Armati. The other third is spent on Defense and DHS.
2/3rds of the federal spending is on entitlements (Social Security and Medicaid), Armati. The other third is spent on Defense and DHS.
I am talking about all military, security, intel, DoJ, seriously add it up.
And, perhaps 2/3 is a bit high, but it is actually more than all of our social spending (which is also too high). My point is, this topic should not be off limits just because We The People want these agencies to actually justify all of this spending.
2/3rds of the federal spending is on entitlements (Social Security and Medicaid), Armati. The other third is spent on Defense and DHS.
I think he may have meant 2/3 of the so-called "Discretionary" budget, of which SS and many of the other entitlements are not included.
I am talking about all military, security, intel, DoJ, seriously add it up.
And, perhaps 2/3 is a bit high, but it is actually more than all of our social spending (which is also too high). My point is, this topic should not be off limits just because We The People want these agencies to actually justify all of this spending.
I just added up the numbers from the 2010 budget. SS, Medicare, Medicaid, Income Security, Unemployment, and Federal Retirement/Disability account for about 58% of the federal budget.
That said, I could not agree with you more about the rather liberal interpretation of "LE Bashing" that has been adopted here.
GermanSynergy
01-23-11, 15:25
I like M4C alot and have met/trained with some of the folks on here. All have been superb stand up guys.
While some of us may have our disagreements on some issues, this is the best firearms related board extant.
We have a great community here and don't want to see it go the way of other gun boards with childish BS. :neo:
Thanks Palmguy, but that is the wonder of the Federal budget - it can be whatever you want it to be.
Now, how much of that retirement income is going to people who were in service in one of the above areas?
All of the guys I know are really wondering how long our military pensions will go untouched. Tricare has been very squeezed by retirees.
All the same, where can I get clip art of your avatar?
Over the next two years there will be a lot of serious national discussion on what and where to cut. In many local govts there are already battles taking place over police and FD budgets... I personally, would like to be able to discuss this seriously here...
Agreed. I was going to post the unbelievable story about the Camden, NJ police force laying off 50% of it's department last week but passed due to the new restrictions.
Seems kind of senseless to prevent any LEO topic whatsoever, especially here. IMHO, of course.
Thanks Palmguy, but that is the wonder of the Federal budget - it can be whatever you want it to be.
Now, how much of that retirement income is going to people who were in service in one of the above areas?
All of the guys I know are really wondering how long our military pensions will go untouched. Tricare has been very squeezed by retirees.
All the same, where can I get clip art of your avatar?
I didn't include the line item titled "Veterans benefits", but I'm not sure if military pensions are lumped in that category or in the blanket Federal retirement category. Either way, each of those two is only about 3% and as such isn't critical to the point being made.
I'll send you a PM when I can find the full size image on whichever one of my computers it is on.
GermanSynergy
01-23-11, 15:49
People in the .mil have earned their pensions. I'd cut the fat starting with entitlements like welfare, WIC, Section 8, Medicaid for starters......
Thanks Palmguy, but that is the wonder of the Federal budget - it can be whatever you want it to be.
Now, how much of that retirement income is going to people who were in service in one of the above areas?
All of the guys I know are really wondering how long our military pensions will go untouched. Tricare has been very squeezed by retirees.
All the same, where can I get clip art of your avatar?
People in the .mil have earned their pensions. I'd cut the fat starting with entitlements like welfare, WIC, Section 8, Medicaid for starters......
I think actual discussion of the budget etc deserves its own topic. That being said, .mil pensions would be the last thing I would look at to cut. I doubt they are a significant part of the budget and while not bad pensions, don't suffer from the same thing that the union supported public sector employees pensions do AFAIK. (said as someone who has never served myself in .mil)
Well, yes, budgets should get their own thread. I am simply concerned that certain budget items will not be open for discussion - esp. discussions involving cost-benefit ratios.
That said, hey look, we made it to page 3 without this thread being locked!
Army Chief
01-23-11, 17:16
I think the site is a wee bit too sensitive on certain subjects - especially, on 'LEO bashing.' It seems that 'LEO bashing' is the catch all reason to close any thread.
It's not really sensitivity, brother, but a zero-tolerance policy is a zero-tolerance policy, and the piece that you're missing here is what drove us to take such drastic measures in the first place.
LEO-related topics have a well-established -- I'm talking "years" here -- history of rounding the corner in short order and turning contentious. This is to be expected, since we have just as many freedom-loving patriots here chafing at abuses of power as we do sworn law-enforcement officers, trying to do an impossible job well.
Whether we like it or not, posts of this nature are always laced with an agenda, That may be deliberate on the part of the poster, or simply a by-product of reporting bias at the source, but we still end up making judgments and offering opinions with limited/skewed facts and zero first-hand knowledge. Little wonder that people (on both sides) end up with their undergarments knotted-up.
The truth is that the subject matter isn't really the problem. The problem lies with the manner in which the membership advances these kinds of threads, and it is often the same folks rushing headlong down the path to ruin, grinding their axes as they go, and brushing aside the forum's rules on civility and personal attacks in the end. People get upset, things turn ugly, and intervention is required.
These situations put the staff in an incredibly difficult position; especially when some of these hard heads happen to be valued long-time members, friends of the site, and guys whose opinons are otherwise held in high regard. When the warnings go unheeded, do we uphold the rules and issue infractions, suspensions and bans, or do we send a larger signal that we aren't really serious about upholding the standards of the site, and allow M4C to descend into the kind of chaos that passes for normal elsewhere?
Sometimes, it makes the most sense to do neither.
In the end, we've learned that, if you allow six-year-olds to head down to the basement with a box of strike anywhere matches, you're just asking to get your house burned down. I'm not suggesting our guys are six-year-olds, but I am saying that in implementing some topical restrictions, we've tried to remove the most likely ignition sources that lead to childish disputes. It's an imperfect solution that rubs some people the wrong way (and we don't really care for it much ourselves), but it also makes it extremely easy to see where the left and right range limits are. When someone steps over the line, all concerned recognize it immediately, and know exactly what is coming.
In the end, that kind of clarity improves things for all of us, even if we might actually prefer to keep things a bit more laissez-faire.
AC
A surefire way to set men who'd normally be best shooting buds against one another and turn them into bitter adversaries is to discuss politics and religion.
or Race relations. :rolleyes:
Threads of that nature go south, quickly.
Mace
Pumpkinheaver
01-23-11, 19:29
...and the Great Pumpkin
What did I do?!!!!!!!!!!LOL
or Race relations. :rolleyes:
Threads of that nature go south, quickly.
Race related threads, as well as other afore mentioned topics, are often driven into the ground by those who are unwilling to concede a rational viewpoint under any circumstance. They simply can't keep their personal emotions in check and allow them to skew proper interpretation of obvious facts.
Or they are just out there to begin with. Whichever, but both are counter-productive.
Piggybacking on AC's comments, this thread isn't the place to attempt to vent over LE topics and our current policy regarding same.
None of us are happy about it; the alternative is worse. I do not want to lose some of you as members, and if we allow LE topics back currently, many people here today would be gone tomorrow.
Well gang, that is some might slim guidance.
I really do appreciate M4C not being a sight dominated by threads dedicated to zombie survival and fighting 'The Man', but what are the left and right limits?
Ok, I can see locking threads, but banning members? I would think some sort of warning/explanation might be in order first.
Ok, I can see locking threads, but banning members? I would think some sort of warning/explanation might be in order first.
How many warnings would you suggest? Should the first five public warnings, issued to everyone, have been enough? How about PM's and emails asking nicely? Should those count towards the total too?
Fact is people acting outside of expected behavior would be issued infractions. Those infractions would lead to temporary vacations from the site, automatically. Accumulation of total points from infractions will lead to longer vacations. Ultimately, if someone has 20pts or more hanging around, it's likely time to cut ties with that user.
Most of the commonality to those threads is the subject matter and the people discussing it. If we allow LE threads, those people will accumulate enough points to get vacations, in the first few posts. Period. End of story. The history is there for inspection and review.
I must reiterate, we've got multiple people we'd like to keep around, and many of them have been asked, warned and talked to about it already. This is not even counting the people who would get caught up in the infractions and get punted for 3-10 days, or more, just for being in the wrong thread when moderation started happening.
I'm glad everyone has an opinion on the LE thread moratorium, but the matter was settled some time ago and we're not looking to reverse this any time soon. Sorry.
Race related threads, as well as other afore mentioned topics, are often driven into the ground by those who are unwilling to concede a rational viewpoint under any circumstance. They simply can't keep their personal emotions in check and allow them to skew proper interpretation of obvious facts.
Or they are just out there to begin with. Whichever, but both are counter-productive.
Or simply, one has had some negative experiences in the past or present, and come to a forum under an "alias" and post comments they would not have the intestinal fortitude to say to a group of "people" that they are directing their comments.
Obviously, their "personal emotions" are what made them start the thread initially.
MW
Ultimately, if someone has 20pts or more hanging around, it's likely time to cut ties with that user.
Little bit of a thread-jack here, but since you brought it up...
How are points "awarded"? Is it one point per infraction? 2 for a particularly heinous one? and if 20 is the threshold of banishment, how would one get themselves a 15-point infraction? and how long do those points hang around?
The subject was raised years ago on TOS that unless you were of a particularly un-interesting sort it would be pretty hard to be a member there for a long time WITHOUT getting banned. This was based simply on the theory of:
mods/staff with emotional problems
+
the longer you've been there the more time you would have had to tread on the tender feelings of all of them
=
inevitable banishment at some point.
If the points system is going to be used here, now, again, then it seems to me that the infraction scale needs to be uniform and made public, and someone on the staff end needs to be checking to make sure that everyone is applying the points correctly.
Suwannee Tim
01-24-11, 05:34
.....I'm glad everyone has an opinion on the LE thread moratorium, but the matter was settled some time ago and we're not looking to reverse this any time soon. Sorry.
So why are we discussing this? This reminds me of a gun shop I visit. There are animal trophies all over, African plains game, bears, deer, antelopes and such. The ones on the floor each have a little tag asking you not to touch. I don't have a burning desire to touch until I see that little sign. Then I really, really want to touch! If you just really, really want to engage in LE bashing, do it elsewhere! Sheesh!
Suwannee Tim
01-24-11, 05:38
How about changing the rules to make moderating such a pain in the ass that nobody wants to do it? Then you have to pay people to moderate. Then the forum charges dues to cover the mod's salaries? Most of the members leave. I think re-opening the forum to LE bashing is a bad, bad idea. It is amazing that it is even being discussed.
Army Chief
01-24-11, 05:57
This reminds me of a gun shop I visit. There are animal trophies all over, African plains game, bears, deer, antelopes and such. The ones on the floor each have a little tag asking you not to touch. I don't have a burning desire to touch until I see that little sign. Then I really, really want to touch!
Wiley in Non Sequitur on The Essence of Human Nature. (http://imgsrv.gocomics.com/dim/?fh=10bd9d4a2a081504208f6f9324ffe18c)
=]
AC
Littlelebowski
01-24-11, 07:10
This is my public thanks to Shivan and the other mods involved for the LE decision.
Thank you.
That is all.
John_Wayne777
01-24-11, 07:34
How are points "awarded"? Is it one point per infraction? 2 for a particularly heinous one? and if 20 is the threshold of banishment, how would one get themselves a 15-point infraction? and how long do those points hang around?
There is a graduated scale ranging from 5 points up to 30 based on the nature of the offense. Somebody who posts gay porn, for instance, gets a heftier infraction than somebody who gets grumpy and ends up in a tit-for-tat argument with somebody else that gets stupid. Etc. The categories of offense are pre-defined within the infraction system, so a pointless bickering offense is the same point value no matter which mod/staffer is handling the problem.
The expiration date on a point value depends on the nature of the offense as well. A 5 point infraction for running up your post count will go away sooner than say a threat to kill a federal judge.
Even though points expire, we keep a record of infractions that are handed out complete with citations and explanations which can be reviewed later...which makes gaming the expiration of points difficult. If someone decides to be a habitual violator it will be easy to see and they'll probably get the boot.
Our infraction system is a magnificent tool and one of the great contributions Jay Cunningham made to the board. He was also instrumental in setting up the awesome EE system.
The subject was raised years ago on TOS that unless you were of a particularly un-interesting sort it would be pretty hard to be a member there for a long time WITHOUT getting banned. This was based simply on the theory of:
mods/staff with emotional problems
+
the longer you've been there the more time you would have had to tread on the tender feelings of all of them
=
inevitable banishment at some point.
There is no point system on TOS. Would to God it was that consistent. Moderators can hand out warnings for violating the conduct code which can be used to inform decisions staffers can make about whether or not to ban someone temporarily, restrict them from a particular forum on the site, or permanently ban them. Contrary to popular belief, getting banned on TOS generally takes real effort. Spam bots and people who post gay porn in the discussion forums generally get banned instantly but that's as it should be. There is no set number of warnings before a particular action is taken. Bans, lockouts, etc are entirely a judgment call by the staffers.
Aside from that, someone has to become a habitual pain in the ass to get banned...and even that's not a guarantee. Getting rid of a habitual problem child on TOS is an act of congress, generally. Here temporary bans happen based on a pre-defined system of violations using point values and a judgment call is only required when someone proves to be particularly stubborn and unable to correct their behavior after multiple automatically generated temporary bans. In those cases the issue is usually discussed among several moderators and staffers and a consensus is reached. Getting banned on M4C is much easier by orders of magnitude you'd need a calculator to quantify.
As for personal feelings, there are layers of accountability on both sites. The moderators on M4C are infinitely more powerful than moderators on AR15.com, but there is accountability to each other and to the staff for actions taken as a moderator. One person cannot mount a campaign against somebody out of hurt feelings and get away with it.
In general we do our best not to second guess one another...but that's not usually necessary because the mods and staffers here seem to take the responsibility seriously enough to try and avoid doing anything that would cause second guessing. Often if a sticky issue comes up mods consult one another and the staffers on how to handle it. You guys have no idea how often we're on the phone with one another discussing some board issue and how it should be handled, or how often we try and play peacemaker behind the scenes.
If the points system is going to be used here, now, again, then it seems to me that the infraction scale needs to be uniform and made public, and someone on the staff end needs to be checking to make sure that everyone is applying the points correctly.
Well, again, there's no point system on ARFCOM. I wish that they had something even close to what we're blessed with on M4C. It would make life much simpler.
As for the system here, the points system has been in place for quite some time (since before I became a moderator, in fact) and has generally worked very well. When infractions are given the mod/staffer giving the infraction has to document the infraction and the reason why it was given (which is done more as a means of keeping a useful reference history, but also serves as a level of accountability) in a continuing topic in a restricted forum. That record of infractions is also useful as a sort of defacto list of precedent on how similar issues have been handled in the past.
It's seemed to work pretty well so far. General discussion is responsible for probably 75% of the infractions that get handed out. The topics in the rest of the site seem to be correctable with gentle nudges most of the time whereas the GD discussions sometimes require a big stick. While none of the mods or staffers are shy about using the big stick if it's necessary, in general we'd prefer to not have to do that in the first place.
Hence the 200 post count requirement for GD and the LE topic restriction.
The strike zone is much wider on M4C because we generally don't want to tolerate stupid. On AR15 you can be dumber than a bag of hammers, but as long as you stay within certain broad lines of conduct you're on equal footing with everybody else, and that's the foundation of the complaints about signal to noise ratio. The amount of bad advice I see on AR15 on a regular basis never ceases to astound me. It's not universal by any stretch, but on any conceivable topic there is no shortage of individuals who have nothing of value to contribute but aren't slowed down by that in the least.
The moderators are much more powerful here and fellow mods/staffers generally back the play of the moderator in question...because the mod is usually acting in a perfectly reasonable manner given the circumstances in front of them. Being banned here is easier by many orders of magnitude than on many other boards I've seen, and yet people who have been banned on a number of other boards seem to participate here without too much drama.
That is, I believe, a function of the environment. We have a certain expectation of the people who participate here and generally people seem to realize that and live up to it. Those who insist on stupid (either by behaving badly or spewing objectively incorrect information) are shown the door.
I think re-opening the forum to LE bashing is a bad, bad idea. It is amazing that it is even being discussed.
Who asked or implied that the forum be open to "LE bashing"?
Rhetorically, nobody.
Functionally, anybody with objections to the moritorium on LE-based threads is trying to open us up for a return to LE-bashing from the ass'd nuts section of the audience.
For those who don't think that that's accurate, you aren't looking at it from having to tard-wrangle those little jewels of polarization. We're better off without that garbage. Forum members were given countless opportunities to knock off the nonsense. Instead, stupid games were played, prompting the award of stupid prizes.
Anybody that wants to point fingers over it had better pay attention the other three fingers on their hand that are pointing right back at themselves.
Point of clarification:
So if I understand this correctly, M4C does in fact have an established system for bans? Sounds reasonable.
But how will you know if you crossed the line? Do you get a warning first then points? Or do you just get points and have to guess at what you did wrong?
Going back to my particular example of discussing budgets and just how much LE/security/military we need/can afford. I think this deserves legitimate discussion. Is this subject off limits or can it be discussed as long as we keep it on topic?
In other news, we made it to 4 pages with no lock out!
Littlelebowski
01-24-11, 09:24
Armati, there's no ban on military discussion threads. As far as your LE questions; here is the answer (http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=69588).
Going back to my particular example of discussing budgets and just how much LE/security/military we need/can afford. I think this deserves legitimate discussion. Is this subject off limits or can it be discussed as long as we keep it on topic?
It won't fly because it will require a discussion of police & firefighter unions. I also believe it deserves discussion, just not on this website.
This site is about firearms, tactics, gear, and we offer general discussion as pleasurable entertainment or diversion from the main topics, not as a septic pit that needs constant supervision.
Functionally, anybody with objections to the moritorium on LE-based threads is trying to open us up for a return to LE-bashing from the ass'd nuts section of the audience.
For those who don't think that that's accurate, you aren't looking at it from having to tard-wrangle those little jewels of polarization.
I completely understand this issue, just seemed as though the other poster I quoted believed it was the intended outcome rather than an unpleasant side-effect that is usually caused by a only few.
If people want their own bully-pulpit/soap box to announce/discuss/rail against politics/religion/law enforcement/democrats/republicans/Obama, etc.......then start your own blog or get on Facebook and have at it.
Otherwise, how about leaving that shit off of the forum.
If people want their own bully-pulpit/soap box to announce/discuss/rail against politics/religion/law enforcement/democrats/republicans/Obama, etc.......then start your own blog or get on Facebook and have at it.
Otherwise, how about leaving that shit off of the forum.
Amen...:agree:
MW
I agree with Templar as well. If you absolutely positively have to discuss these things, you just do it somewhere else. Forums are not required to cater to any and all topics.
I'd describe myself as very pro-LE. However...
...we've been told not to discuss it. So you're not, right? That's what you meant to say, right?
...we've been told not to discuss it. So you're not, right? That's what you meant to say, right?
Sir, yes sir! :agree:
Sorry, I read your post twice before posting and didn't see anything about discussing the topic itself, just that the starting of threads about said subject was prohibited.
Now I know...
Piggybacking on AC's comments, this thread isn't the place to attempt to vent over LE topics and our current policy regarding same.
Since some missed my comment on this very page...
So here's an example of a thread where guidance is attempted, and we are still continuing to discuss an issue that at least one mod and one staff have told everyone to stop discussing.
Imagine this now with a topic where people's personal tempers are elevated, and posts are happening seconds apart.
Enough discussion of the LE thread policy. It's done.
The expiration date on a point value depends on the nature of the offense as well. A 5 point infraction for running up your post count will go away sooner than say a threat to kill a federal judge.
Even though points expire, we keep a record of infractions that are handed out complete with citations and explanations which can be reviewed later...which makes gaming the expiration of points difficult. If someone decides to be a habitual violator it will be easy to see and they'll probably get the boot.
Our infraction system is a magnificent tool and one of the great contributions Jay Cunningham made to the board. He was also instrumental in setting up the awesome EE system.
So I have a question.
When I first got here I received a warning (points?) for making comments of a racist nature with a thread. When I sent the moderator a WTF? pm he agreed that it was in fact not a racist comment and was clearly a joke. The nature of the post was a youtube video making fun of white racists doing karate (this was before I understood GD didn't engage in general diversion.
I was told it was no bid deal and it wouldn't count against me and I accepted it at face value. But your post above seems to suggest otherwise. So my question is this, do I have a record?
I do have one legit infraction, I mentioned I was doing a group buy (forget what I was selling at the time) and I got a warning (infraction?) for advertising. I don't have any issue with that one, even though it wasn't an intentional violation of rules, I still did do it.
My thoughts on M4c.
-Good place to come get info on the M4/M16/AR15 variants & other weapons platforms/variants.
-Informed and elclectic membership.
-A lot of unecessary fist/chest pounding.
-Some misogynistic guys here (Sick of seeing T&A in posts that are supposed to be about military, guns, etc. go to a porno site if that is what you want, there are ****ing plenty of them dudes! Stupid user comments about some "Hot chick" "Id run up in her sideways" etc; in combat/uniform (Or otherwise) is appauling considering the rules about LEO's and Military/soldiers. The level/tone of respect should not change accross the board be you LEO, Military, civvie, male or female, period. Yet, when it comes to women here, a lot of unacceptable/questionable behavior is overlooked it seems...)
All in all it is a quality forum with lots of knowledge to absorb; keeps this spongue coming back for more.
So my question is this, do I have a record?
You do, but with all expired points. They were both for the lowest type of infraction, so they don't look like much if another mod were to look you up for something you were currently doing.
Fact is, we talk a lot of stuff over before acting. The infraction system just takes the hunting out of the legwork to figure out what type of member we're dealing with if something is going sideways.
-Overwhelmingly misogynistic...
Maybe I am a closet misogynist, but I don't see that, and I get to read a lot of our threads. We've hard edited people's profiles for racy avatars and such. I can't imagine we are knowingly allowing people to bash women, or sling innuendo.
Use the report post button and be clear in the description. We cherish women, as mods and staff, and this forum should be a friendly environment for women and men, equally.
You do, but with all expired points. They were both for the lowest type of infraction, so they don't look like much if another mod were to look you up for something you were currently doing.
Fact is, we talk a lot of stuff over before acting. The infraction system just takes the hunting out of the legwork to figure out what type of member we're dealing with if something is going sideways.
So given that I didn't actually do anything in the one instance, shouldn't that record be removed?
Maybe I am a closet misogynist, but I don't see that, and I get to read a lot of our threads. We've hard edited people's profiles for racy avatars and such. I can't imagine we are knowingly allowing people to bash women, or sling innuendo.
Use the report post button and be clear in the description. We cherish women, as mods and staff, and this forum should be a friendly environment for women and men, equally.
"Overwhelmingly" was a bad choice of words here. I edited it to say "Some guys here..." to clairfy.
So given that I didn't actually do anything in the one instance, shouldn't that record be removed?
The point values are zero, for all intents, they are gone.
"Overwhelmingly" was a bad choice of words here. I edited it to say "Some guys here..." to clairfy.
You see it happen, let us know. It's unsatisfactory to me, and our ownership.
The point values are zero, for all intents, they are gone.
Except for that they still show on my record. So they can be taken into consideration by a moderator or staff.
Please understand I'm not trying to make a huge deal out of this. But if I didn't actually do anything, I don't think it should be on my record and should have never been there in the first place.
I had some bad experiences on TOS with this regard. A couple guys DonR and antiUSSA put a ton of shit on my "official report card" that were completely nonsense rules violations as a result of a personal dislike for me. These include stuff like "locking me for threatening to spam the sight" when I commented that I was close to some post count (can't remember, I think I was close to 25k) and would be there soon.
And in hindsight they both turned out to be stellar individuals. But in the end, all that bad press worked against me regardless because it was still there. Now I'm pretty confident we have a much better class of mods and staff here, but just the same I'd rather not have things I never really did working against me.
An expired 5pt infraction is transparent. Not even considered. If we see some 20pt jobs on there, it will be an issue. 5pts mean you got an "official" warning that could amount to 100 of them and it might not matter in total.
Gentlemen I suspect a bit too much thought is going into these particulars. The sad reality is that somehow blatant anti-LEO's have been allowed to dictate policy here. This to the extent that someone looking to discuss any law enforcement issue is now deemed as an overt troublemaker who needs his or her own blog. :rolleyes:
Somewhat reminiscent of allowing gun toting criminals to dictate law.
Army Chief
01-24-11, 19:33
So we're still discussing it, then?
I've got to admit that I've completely lost track of the original direction of this thread, but I do think there might be some wisdom in getting this back on-azimuth.
AC
Suwannee Tim
01-24-11, 20:38
I think we were discussing whether to have an official "Personal Attacks and Bash Other Members" thread.:D
What is TOS?
I've got to admit that I've completely lost track of the original direction of this thread, but I do think there might be some wisdom in getting this back on-azimuth.
To recap:
1) M4C is not TOS or similar firearms sites.
2) Use the search function and don't post stupid "What should I buy" threads.
3) M4C encourages self-education and learning and does not "spare the rod" with the lazy.
4) We are a diverse, fiery-tempered group, quick to anger but usually quick to forgive. Sometimes. Unless you've violated items 1 through 3.
5) M4C members are a cut above the rest. Just ask us.
6) The suggestion to please stop talking about LE is not always well-received. Or even received at all. Even with repeated nice and not-so-nice reminders.
7) SteyrAUG is a reformed offender with two infractions in his permanent record, one of which does not sit well with him.
8) Kwelz had no idea how this post would turn out. Now he knows.
9) We love women here. We really really love women here.
10) The moderators do an excellent job at a thankless task. (All moderators please note that I have said this. You may keep it in a file to refer to at a future date if wanting to give me an infraction for something.)
11) There is no place for zombie hunters on M4C. Unless you actually have proof you killed one. That would be bitchen.
12) Suwannee Tim wants to touch dead fuzzy things he's not supposed to.
13) He with the most points loses. It's like golf but with bullets.
14) TheKatar would have shut this thread down loooooong ago. Wait. What? (c'mon Jay, you know you would have :haha:)
You may continue.
To recap:
8) Kwelz had no idea how this post would turn out. Now he knows.
Tell me about it.
I had hoped this would lead to constructive discussion...
Tell me about it.
I had hoped this would lead to constructive discussion...
I think it has led to a constructive discussion. I think it was a very timely post on your part, and if you have noticed there haven't been many inflammatory threads started while this post has been being discussed. It may have gone "off track" a bit, but I still think that what people are talking about here is valuable.
Has anyone ever noticed how often real world "conversations" between people face to face get off subject? I would say almost 90% of the time conversations divert and go a different direction due to people having something to add. I don't think we should look at every evolution of a conversation and dialogue as something that is necessarily bad on here. I mean if it goes way off into left field, sure, but I think this thread has simply hit on a feeling people have here, and has grown and changed to reflect the very concerns you were talking about in your original post.
I think it has led to a constructive discussion. I think it was a very timely post on your part, and if you have noticed there haven't been many inflammatory threads started while this post has been being discussed.
Yep.
With any luck, why, in a few months we will have nothing left to discuss but golf and Hello Kitty.
After all, America was founded by rugged individualist who avoided controversy.
To recap:
7) SteyrAUG is a reformed offender with two infractions in his permanent record, one of which does not sit well with him.
Actually, upon review the disputed infraction has been removed. While not an intentional violation, I actually did violate the rules with the other infraction so I have no problem accepting it.
Certainly a far better shake than I got with my alleged infractions elsewhere.
Suwannee Tim
01-25-11, 05:27
Some view infractions as a badge of honor. And they can be depending on the context. I've been kicked off Sigforum.com twice. Once as Suwannee Tim, once as Florida Frank.
After all, America was founded by rugged individualist who avoided controversy.
Not disagreeing with the basis of your statement but people in this country have also forgotten how to argue. One reason for that is the internet. Gang mentalities have taken over, and things just become pissing matches. People that would have reasonable face to face arguments disagreeing on something political/religious/social, then share a beer and go out shooting in the morning, resort to name calling and assumptions when you put them behind a computer screen.
For me I don't see how this social change in behavior is positive, or in any way good for our country, or this board.
Actually, upon review the disputed infraction has been removed. While not an intentional violation, I actually did violate the rules with the other infraction so I have no problem accepting it.
Certainly a far better shake than I got with my alleged infractions elsewhere.
Damn, the mods have gone soft.
I will have to pay them more I guess if I want them to run you off the board. :ph34r:
Army Chief
01-25-11, 06:37
For me I don't see how this social change in behavior is positive, or in any way good for our country, or this board.
I may be off-base, but I tend to view this as a consequence of our "everybody gets a trophy" culture, in that people seem to have grown much more fragile where their self-confidence is concerned.
When the collective emphasis in our society went from actually being good to simply looking good, we were left with a lot of folks in need of regular external validation. This makes it awfully difficult to keep charged emotion out of the equation when someone might feel that they are being challenged on the internet, that their opinions are being questioned, or that their beliefs are being scorned.
Instead of reasoned discourse and sane, measured consideration of key concepts, we end up with emotional outbursts and personal attacks that are focused upon the sender, rather than the message. That's actually one of the reasons I tend not to use infractions and such to rein in this kind of behavior, because in my view, those have a tendency to further alienate a member who may already be struggling with a certain vulnerability. Yes, at some point this probably devolves into a lot of psychobabble, but the point is that there is a lot to said for having a thick skin, learning to give others the benefit of the doubt, and -- to invoke a relevant Biblical reference -- being "slow to wrath."
Compared to other sites, we have very few true douchenozzles running around on the boards, and when we find them, we tend to snap their sabers in half, rip off their buttons, and drop them off outside of the fort walls. For the rest of us, it is just a continual battle to make sure that we keep the proper perspective, and work to be a part of the solution, rather than a part of the problem. Self-policing is still our most effective means of keeping things civil around here, and I don't know even one staffer who takes any real pleasure in laying the smackdown on those who go "off the reservation" from time to time.
You simply wouldn't believe the amount of behind-the-scenes discussion that results from all of this, as we're really seeking to maintain a healthy balance, and for the most part, those efforts simply aren't visible to the typical member in a typical thread on a typical day. The work is never done, but it is worth doing. I think we can all agree with that, as this remains a worthy destination in a day and age when none of us really have enough time to do much of anything, much less to sit in front of a computer screen.
AC
variablebinary
01-25-11, 11:42
How many threads like this do we need a month?
"What 'we' are about", "M4C has changed", "GD is bringing 'us' down"
Don't like GD content or tone, then don't post in or read GD. Whoa magic, you solved your own problem. Or even better go join lightfighter.
Army Chief
01-25-11, 12:20
I've got an even better idea: how about if we just conduct ourselves in GD just like we're expected to in every other area of the site?
AC
variablebinary
01-25-11, 12:46
I've got an even better idea: how about if we just conduct ourselves in GD just like we're expected to in every other area of the site?
AC
There is far more asshattery in other sections in my opinion. GD, if anything, is quite civil
Rmplstlskn
01-25-11, 13:21
I've got an even better idea: how about if we just conduct ourselves in GD just like we're expected to in every other area of the site?
AC
Novel idea... Thread closed... :haha:
I've got an even better idea: how about if we just conduct ourselves in GD just like we're expected to in every other area of the site?
AC
I guess this is what always leaving me scratching my head...i frequent another hunting forum which has some of the most solid and coolest members you could ask for, but college football discussions are not allowed in the GD due to many of them turning into gremlins??
I can certainly understand why topics can get heated as many of us are passionate about what floats our boat, but to watch a known member's attitude and personality change towards their online buddies so drastically is hard for me to wrap my head around.
I'm guessing it is because some take an attack on their position to be personal...i enjoy reading along and discussing in many of the threads that end up getting closed. However, I really don't care if someone thinks my faith, politics or even a 1911 is full of crap and calls me a fool with malice. It adds no value and trollish posts deserve no response but it's usually the Submit Reply button to the said attacker that makes the train take a dirt road.
I may be off-base, but I tend to view this as a consequence of our "everybody gets a trophy" culture, in that people seem to have grown much more fragile where their self-confidence is concerned.
...
Thank you for that response I agree with it completely.
I've got an even better idea: how about if we just conduct ourselves in GD just like we're expected to in every other area of the site?
AC
And I'll give you one better, don't post anything on the board that you would not be willing to say in person. After all, one day 'we' might all meet at a range, class, gun show, or God forbid - at work.
Army Chief
01-25-11, 17:52
And I'll give you one better, don't post anything on the board that you would not be willing to say in person. After all, one day 'we' might all meet at a range, class, gun show, or God forbid - at work.
Wisdom.
AC
Suwannee Tim
01-25-11, 18:49
And I'll give you one better, don't post anything on the board that you would not be willing to say in person. After all, one day 'we' might all meet at a range, class, gun show, or God forbid - at work.
Aw gosh Armati, that like takes all the fun out of it. After all, this is, like the internet and all and you don't have to like worry about someone you offend slapping the snot out of you!:D
SWATcop556
01-25-11, 21:26
God forbid - at work.
I hope I don't meet ANY of you at work. :haha:
I think the main focus of M4C should be that we are all on the same side regardless of race, age, religion, political views, or any other catagory we like to lump each other in.
I've had to rein in members here that I would bet $100 that I could throw bullets and share beers with. I don't Mod on a personal level. If it's personal for me I pass it off to another Mod or send it over to Staff.
Aw gosh Armati, that like takes all the fun out of it. After all, this is, like the internet and all and you don't have to like worry about someone you offend slapping the snot out of you!:D
Internet bravado is just another version of fantasy internet persona.
I don't think the problem is topics that can't be discussed.
It's when someone comes into the thread and doesn't care to respect the individuals with an opinion different than their own.
IMHO, it's really that simple.
Just when someone will not tolerate another point of view.
That's my $.02.
I got in a religion debate on another forum, and one guy, just... I mean honestly, in a debate, explain your debate, and don't relent to insulting others when you can't think of something else to say.
And I'll give you one better, don't post anything on the board that you would not be willing to say in person. After all, one day 'we' might all meet at a range, class, gun show, or God forbid - at work.
Agreed. I know several people from this board personally from classes and from our local range (one of which is a mod and about the most stand-up person I know). All of them I consider friends. I'd hate to think we wouldn't have ended up as friends because I had made some stupid online comment.
Internet bravado is just another version of fantasy internet persona.
So you are saying I'm really not Kargath Bladefist?!?
RogerinTPA
01-26-11, 11:29
Agree with AC's point's on our current "everyone's a winner" society. If they would just hold that line of thinking to elementary school, then crush there nuts into the hard cold reality of this world in middle and high school, kids would be much better prepared. After all, second place is the first loser. Civility goes a long way, but with the strait shooters on this board, some tenderonis will envariably get there feeling hurt.
Internet bravado is just another version of fantasy internet persona.
Persona? What persona?
http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q=larp&rlz=1B2GGIC_en___US260&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&biw=1024&bih=574
Doc Safari
02-16-12, 17:12
Interesting thread. I was not aware of the "points" system.
The question was asked earlier and forgive me if I missed the answer, but is there a way to check one's "points" to see if he's reaching the edge?
I've been careful not to cross the line (as far as where I thought the line was), but some interpretations of "the line" being somewhat subjective and all...it would be good to know one's status.
Holy resurrected thread batman!! I know shivan game me an infraction when i first joined cuz I replied on an equipment exchange to soon, but never thought about it again until now. Not sure if I've ever gotten another as it's pretty easy to figure out what direction this site wants. I'm guesing it's the only one but never really thought about needing to check current status??
Hell, I don't even remember replying to this thread & read the whole stupid thing again...I miss my mind sometimes.
Thanks to mods and ownership for allowing the gd to stick around...i'm sure it's a pita but still appreciated. I just firgured if M4 wanted me off the site, I would be gone!!
In a morbid sense, I think that is why I like it here...get with it or get lost. Lots of other countless forums that allow nonsense.
out...
QuietShootr
02-16-12, 18:58
IMHO the post-count limits have completely solved the problem with GD. With that rule in place, the solution for those that object to GD is to stay out of GD.
Agreed.
montanadave
02-16-12, 18:59
The question was asked earlier and forgive me if I missed the answer, but is there a way to check one's "points" to see if he's reaching the edge?
Check your "User CP". Under the listing of subscribed threads should be a section containing any infractions, both expired and current.
SWATcop556
02-16-12, 21:05
The zombies arose with this necro post. This one is done before bad habit or ill will arise from over a year ago.
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