View Full Version : No more Saiga shotguns?
January 19th, 2011
Today, the ATF announced at the 2011 SHOT Show that a new ruling would be issued on Monday, January 24, 2011, regarding the importability of certain shotguns. ATF informed the audience at the ATF Townhall meeting that they wanted to ensure that they were properly and justly enforcing the requirements of a shotgun being for a “sporting purpose.”
http://blog.princelaw.com/2011/1/20/atf-to-issue-new-ruling-on-monday-regarding-new-restrictions-on-shotgun-importation
As an aside, I am no fan of shotguns with terrible ergonomics, horrible safeties and gigantic drum magazines, but that does not mean others should not be able to purchase them if they want to.
http://cdn5.thefirearmsblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/img-4337-tm.jpg
Give the girl credit - she knows where to keep her finger.
I wonder if this would also apply to shotguns like the Benelli M4 and FN SLP.
Does not surprise me in the least.
When people started working on 10 rd. mags and 20 rd. drums, a lot of us warned them not to, that it would bring the hammer down.
I think they are going to ban importation of shotguns that accept a detachable magazine.
Might want to have a mod move this to the Shotgun section.
I put it here b/c I thought it was political, and my impression was we should try to keep the gun forums free of political issues. (?)
Isn't this because people keep unknowingly breaking 922r?
Isn't this because people keep unknowingly breaking 922r?
If the ATF gave a shit about 922r, maybe they could try enforcing it for a change?
Go to any gun show or gun store in the country and you're likely to find unconverted Saiga-12's with a big old 10 round magazine stuck in them.* I'm not a fan of the ATF, but I am meticulous about following 922r! Honor and attention to detail, folks!
* This setup is 1 part shy of meeting 922r. It's simple enough to replace the gas puck with a US-made one, but all of the examples I've seen hanging in gun stores still had the Russian gas puck and no other US parts. When called on it, the owners either didn't understand, or got offended. 922r may be dumb, but it's not hard to figure out.
Robb Jensen
01-21-11, 10:56
Does not surprise me in the least.
When people started working on 10 rd. mags and 20 rd. drums, a lot of us warned them not to, that it would bring the hammer down.
Many people still have them but those shotgun drums are actually illegal in VA. Under the same law that banned the Striker 12 in VA. "spring loaded drum mag" is what the law reads IIRC.
I wonder how much IDPA is to blame for this? They were so upset about Saiga owners "sandbagging" against tube-fed shotguns that they kicked 'em out. They could have created a separate box mag class, but that wouldn't have pleased their tube-feeding sponsors so box mag shotguns were simply banned.
Now this being a free country, it shouldn't matter what kind of rules a private sporting organization makes. Unfortunately this sets an evil precedent. When a big sporting organization (such as IDPA) says that mag-fed shotguns don't belong in their sport, it's essentially begging the ATF to clamp down like this.
SO THANKS FOR NOTHING, IDPA! :rolleyes:
This weekend I think I'm going to take the old Saiga-12 out for a couple rounds of sporting clays, and I'll make a point of being the friendliest, most sporting gentleman there. :)
rubberneck
01-21-11, 11:01
Here's the annoying thing, 922r serves no legitimate purpose whatsoever. Substituting US compliant parts for Russian parts makes the gun no more safe or suitable for ownership. I have a big problem with laws that serve no legitimate purpose and are meant to harry and harass lawful citizens just for the sake of it.
IMHO this is just another example of how this current administration is pushing their agenda through the use of administrative law because they know they can't get what they want through Congress. If the Saiga shotgun has no legitimate sporting purpose because owners are modifying them after the fact what is keeping them from going after the Saiga rifles next?
rubberneck
01-21-11, 11:05
I wonder how much IDPA is to blame for this? They were so upset about Saiga owners "sandbagging" against tube-fed shotguns that they kicked 'em out. They could have created a separate box mag class, but that wouldn't have pleased their tube-feeding sponsor so box mag shotguns were simply banned.
Now this being a free country, it shouldn't matter what kind of rules a private sporting organization makes. Unfortunately this sets an evil precedent. When a big sporting organization (such as IDPA) says that mag-fed shotguns don't belong in their sport, it's essentially begging the ATF to clamp down like this.
SO THANKS FOR NOTHING, IDPA! :rolleyes:
Sorry but this post is just plain stupid. IDPA has nothing to do with this and it is beyond bizarre that you would blame them for it. If for some reason compensators become verboten is that IDPA's fault as well? What's next you are going to blame the lack of open carry laws on IDPA because the require contestants to conceal their firearms while shooting a stage. One thing has nothing to do with the other.
Go to any gun show or gun store in the country and you're likely to find unconverted Saiga-12's with a big old 10 round magazine stuck in them
I thought it was alright to have no more than a 10 rounder in a imported shotgun? Or is the law different for shotguns?
Here's the annoying thing, 922r serves no legitimate purpose whatsoever. Substituting US compliant parts for Russian parts makes the gun no more safe or suitable for ownership. I have a big problem with laws that serve no legitimate purpose and are meant to harry and harass lawful citizens just for the sake of it.
IMHO this is just another example of how this current administration is pushing their agenda through the use of administrative law because they know they can't get what they want through Congress. If the Saiga shotgun has no legitimate sporting purpose because owners are modifying them after the fact what is keeping them from going after the Saiga rifles next?
While I'm in no way a fan of the current administration, we have to remember that it was under the Bush Jr. administration that BATF banned the importation of both barrels and receivers that are on the non sporting import ban that Bush Sr. directed BATF to add to the 1968 GCA in 1989.
rubberneck
01-21-11, 11:17
While I'm in no way a fan of the current administration, we have to remember that it was under the Bush Jr. administration that BATF banned the importation of both barrels and receivers that are on the non sporting import ban that Bush Sr. directed BATF to add to the 1968 GCA in 1989.
It's one thing to ban certain parts of the firearm but IMHO it is an entirely different animal when you start banning the importation of entire firearms. They have just opened pandora's box. Now that they have decided that Saiga shotgun doesn't have a "legitimate sporting purpose" who and what is next?
I thought it was alright to have no more than a 10 rounder in a imported shotgun? Or is the law different for shotguns?
They way I'm reading the law, it would depend on whether the magazine renders the shotgun "non-sporting".
So, if you could run the 10 rounder in a sporting event (such as IDPA 3-gun, rubberneck), it would help bolster the argument that the gun is in a sporting configuration. Gilbert v Higgins also recognized hunting and skeet shooting as sporting purposes, so as long as your jurisdiction permits 10 rounds for squirrel, rabbit, etc, you've got yet another example of a sporting use.
It's one thing to ban certain parts of the firearm but IMHO it is an entirely different animal when you start banning the importation of entire firearms. They have just opened pandora's box. Now that they have decided that Saiga shotgun doesn't have a "legitimate sporting purpose" who and what is next?
What I'm trying to say is that they already have.
The 1989 Import Ban was an executive order that directed BATF to expand the 1968 GCA to include all the stuff that is now banned. When BATF banned the importation of barrels and receivers, they also stopped the importation of rifles that accepted standard magazines. So, you could no longer import a Romanian SAR-1, but you could import the WASR-10 and then open the magazine well up once it's in the US and add US parts.
Not agreeing with BATF doing this, just pointing out that it shouldn't be a surprise, there's plenty of precedent.
So, you could no longer import a Romanian SAR-1, but you could import the WASR-10 and then open the magazine well up once it's in the US and add US parts.
I have a solution!!!!!
have the Russians export the shotguns with the magazine well closed and without a certain number of foreign parts for a lower price. Then add the US made parts here and open the mag well.
922r compliant. Problem solved.
I have a solution!!!!!
have the Russians export the shotguns with the magazine well closed and without a certain number of foreign parts for a lower price. Then add the US made parts here and open the mag well.
922r compliant. Problem solved.
That might just work. Even if they block the importation of complete firearms (i.e. receivers), Izhmash might just agree to ship parts kits. It would be simple enough for US-based AK builders to bend up some Saiga receivers.
There is an easier way. Saiga can open up the mag well at the factory, and then tack weld a 5 round sheet metal mag in place. They can even import US triggers, etc. to make the gun otherwise 922(r) compliant.
When the gun gets here, a dude buys it at a gun store, goes home, gets out the dremel or grinder, takes off the spot welds and stuffs his evil 20 round drum in it.
I have a solution!!!!!
have the Russians export the shotguns with the magazine well closed and without a certain number of foreign parts for a lower price. Then add the US made parts here and open the mag well.
922r compliant. Problem solved.
They can even import US triggers, etc. to make the gun otherwise 922(r) compliant.
Why send US parts and then bring them back in the shotgun? That just adds logistical costs.
When the gun gets here, a dude buys it at a gun store, goes home, gets out the dremel or grinder, takes off the spot welds
Who the hell would want to do that unless the US importer takes the plate off?
Overall a bad idea.:lol:
So, is it time to buy one? Been toying with the idea for awhile.
These are the only shotguns I run now, I consider them a great advantage. I felt an urgent need to have two in case something like this were to happen. Now, I'm thinking two may not be enough.
Why send US parts and then bring them back in the shotgun? That just adds logistical costs.
Having 2 factories in order to build the gun twice adds more logistical cost than shipping all the parts to one factory. :no::no:
Who the hell would want to do that unless the US importer takes the plate off?
It's easier than changing a tire. :haha::haha::haha:
I wonder how much IDPA is to blame for this? They were so upset about Saiga owners "sandbagging" against tube-fed shotguns that they kicked 'em out. They could have created a separate box mag class, but that wouldn't have pleased their tube-feeding sponsors so box mag shotguns were simply banned.
Now this being a free country, it shouldn't matter what kind of rules a private sporting organization makes. Unfortunately this sets an evil precedent. When a big sporting organization (such as IDPA) says that mag-fed shotguns don't belong in their sport, it's essentially begging the ATF to clamp down like this.
SO THANKS FOR NOTHING, IDPA! :rolleyes:
This weekend I think I'm going to take the old Saiga-12 out for a couple rounds of sporting clays, and I'll make a point of being the friendliest, most sporting gentleman there. :)
Blaming IDPA is silly. ATF will do whatever ATF wants to do and they could care less if EVERY IDPA shooter used a Saiga in DMG. There's plenty of precedent for legitimate sporting use of Saigas and only a federal court would be able to back ATF down on this one.
shooter521
01-22-11, 08:04
ATF will do whatever ATF wants to do
True enough. They have even said in writing that "the mere use of a gun in a sporting event does not necessarily mean it is 'suitable for sporting purposes'" :confused:
While I'm in no way a fan of the current administration, we have to remember that it was under the Bush Jr. administration that BATF banned the importation of both barrels and receivers that are on the non sporting import ban that Bush Sr. directed BATF to add to the 1968 GCA in 1989.
We also have to remember who was the driving force behind the importation ban... The big US manufacturers including S&W, Remington, Winchester and Colt who had culpable economic incentive for seeing it passed and enforced.
I'm all about supporting US companies. But if that is true that makes me think a lot different about them. :confused:
Don't try to control the market by forcing others out politically, which just equals decreased options for us. Control the market buy bringing the best possible product to the market at the best possible price.
The entire "sporting purpose" clause needs to be challenged in the SCOTUS. Heller and McDonald didn't talk about the 2nd Amendment as a right to shoot animals. And the NRA needs to recognize that "black rifle" owners are going to be a going to be a membership driver more than hunters.
Gabe Suarez
01-22-11, 12:54
FWIW, I was at SHOT and had a lengthy meeting with Clyde Woods at Russian American Armory. He had just met with ATF on another matter and mentioned nothing about an import ban on the Saiga. In fact, based on my conversation with him, the future of Saiga shotgunners looks very good.
That IDPA did what they did is a matter of "follow the money". Is there a shotgun maker or seller, or customizer that is heavily invested in IDPA? Does the efficiency of the Saiga 12 suddenly make the advancements of said company/companies now seem less relevant? Its all about the money gents...nothing else. And if anyone thinks the US gun companies have no political pull, I'd say they were naive at best.
On another note, Clyde is bringing in some shotguns based on the AR-15 system. From what I saw they will be a great item on the market. I didn't shoot any, but did get a chance to handle them. I will get one for T&E and report back on their reliability, usability, etc.
CleverNickname
01-22-11, 13:56
On another note, Clyde is bringing in some shotguns based on the AR-15 system. From what I saw they will be a great item on the market. I didn't shoot any, but did get a chance to handle them. I will get one for T&E and report back on their reliability, usability, etc.
Is this the .410 upper from Turkey that ATI used to sell, or something different?
Gabe Suarez
01-22-11, 14:24
No...its an actual shotgun...not just an upper. Felt like an old AR-10. It is a 12 ga., and is made in Turkey. I'd tell you the name if I could recall, but all my literature is en route to my office.
They had some interesting pistols too. Kinda looked like Glock, Walther and M&P had a threesome and popped out these Turk pistols. As I said, looked good enough. I'll know more when I shoot them.
No...its an actual shotgun...not just an upper. Felt like an old AR-10. It is a 12 ga., and is made in Turkey. I'd tell you the name if I could recall, but all my literature is en route to my office.
Is this them? http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/02/12/atis-new-12-gauge-ar-15-patterned-shotgun/
http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/tr/akdal-mka-1919-e.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akdal_MKA_1919
Gabe Suarez
01-22-11, 15:02
Yup that's them. Now the blogger mentioned AR-15 "pattern". Thats correct as the internals don't actually seem to be a Stoner design.
I added some links above with breakdown of said firearm.
Hope it helps the discussion.
I called the ATF a few weeks ago and asked the field investigator who called me back about adding parts to my Benelli M4 specifically the collapsible stock and 2 round extension tube from Benelli and he told me as long as my shotgun measured 26" from end of the barrel to the end of the stock that I was good to go and had nothing to worry about. I always see these post about 922r and having a certain number of us made parts on my shotty, but the ATF investigator said that I don't have to worry about that I wasn't breaking any laws.
I called the ATF a few weeks ago and asked the field investigator who called me back about adding parts to my Benelli M4 specifically the collapsible stock and 2 round extension tube from Benelli and he told me as long as my shotgun measured 26" from end of the barrel to the end of the stock that I was good to go and had nothing to worry about. I always see these post about 922r and having a certain number of us made parts on my shotty, but the ATF investigator said that I don't have to worry about that I wasn't breaking any laws.
From experience, I would refrain from calling the ATF, and would say in 30 years never initiated a call relative to regs. This is particularly interesting, because the laws relative to shotguns are very clear and easy, so I don't understand why you felt it necessary to contact ATF. You can read it for yourself, you don't need to ask an agent.
I am unclear about this Saiga thing. I think what I am hearing is the Saiga is approved for import, but because of the possibility of using a 10rd mag or 20 rd drum AFTER it is imported, it becomes a DD based solely on the ability to take that American made magazine?
Using that logic, say my 911 is having head work done, camshafts, a chip, and the boost on the turbos tweaked thereby changing the emissions, so now it is 'illegal' because it doesn't meet federal emissions standards as imported?
I have seen the ATF do some stupid shit, but I don't understand what "grounds" if any they are basing this decision on. They are out of control and have been for some time because they are allowed to be.
From experience, I would refrain from calling the ATF, and would say in 30 years never initiated a call relative to regs. This is particularly interesting, because the laws relative to shotguns are very clear and easy, so I don't understand why you felt it necessary to contact ATF. You can read it for yourself, you don't need to ask an agent.
+ 1
What a random ATF employee says on the other end of a phone has no legal authority. He might as well have said it was OK to make a machine gun.
Well I read so many 10 page forums with forum "experts" questioning and debating the "easy" to understand laws I thought I would call and ask. Seemed logical to ask a person in my area enforcing the rules what the local rules were. Guess I was mistaken. :agree:
We also have to remember who was the driving force behind the importation ban... The big US manufacturers including S&W, Remington, Winchester and Colt who had culpable economic incentive for seeing it passed and enforced.
This is no different than the movers and shakers in the NFA biz supporting the 86 machine gun ban. They'd fight tooth and nail against repealing it because it would take money out of their pockets. While many gun companies support the 2A, most do it because of financial interests as much or more than what they believe.
Well I read so many 10 page forums with forum "experts" questioning and debating the "easy" to understand laws I thought I would call and ask. Seemed logical to ask a person in my area enforcing the rules what the local rules were. Guess I was mistaken. :agree:
Sadly, the ATF is as good about giving out incorrect gun information as the IRS is about giving false tax advice. The only ATF clarifications that have any weight are written documents from the technical branch. :(
CleverNickname
01-22-11, 23:19
This is no different than the movers and shakers in the NFA biz supporting the 86 machine gun ban. They'd fight tooth and nail against repealing it because it would take money out of their pockets. While many gun companies support the 2A, most do it because of financial interests as much or more than what they believe.
I keep hearing this conspiracy theory, that dealers and manufacturers don't want 922(o) repealed, but it's horse hockey. Legal new production machine guns for everyone would be a huge untapped market for manufacturers. Sure, large established companies with government contracts, like Colt and FN might not want to sell machine guns to the general public, but they wouldn't really have a reason to actively oppose repeal. Ambivalence on their part is a lot more likely. There'd be a lot of medium-size and smaller manufacturers that would jump at the chance to sell machine guns to the general public though.
As for dealers with huge inventories of transferables, well first I doubt most dealers have huge inventories of transferables, so we're talking about a very small minority of dealers here. Second, many of the more expensive transferables derive some of their value from their rarity, not just their legal status as a transferable. Sure, if 922(o) was repealed a transferable M11/9 would lose the vast majority of its current value. But something like an original 1921 Colt Thompson wouldn't.
Also, dealers would have to be really stupid not to realize that the repeal of 922(o) would result in a lot more business for them, as the guns would still have to be transfered to the buyer. They'd make up whatever they'd lost through the quantity of new business.
Robb Jensen
01-22-11, 23:27
I predict that Gura will eventually challenge the 1968, 1989 and 'sporting purposes' stuff with the SCOTUS.
As a layperson I see nothing in the 2nd Amendment where is mentions 'sporting purposes' nor do I read anything in the 2nd Amendment that allows infringement on the ownership of imported firearms.
In the meantime I don't understand why SAIGA just doesn't build a US plant. It would stop a lot of BS. As a domestically produced shotgun it could be made so that 922 conversions wouldn't be needed.
I predict that Gura will eventually challenge the 1968, 1989 and 'sporting purposes' stuff with the SCOTUS.
As a layperson I see nothing in the 2nd Amendment where is mentions 'sporting purposes' nor do I read anything in the 2nd Amendment that allows infringement on the ownership of imported firearms.
+1
Well now would be the time since we have a conservative court. :blink:
This is no different than the movers and shakers in the NFA biz supporting the 86 machine gun ban. They'd fight tooth and nail against repealing it because it would take money out of their pockets. While many gun companies support the 2A, most do it because of financial interests as much or more than what they believe.
I gotta throw a flag on this one. Your assumption about taking money out of NFA dealer's and/or manufacturer's pockets as a reason the NFA community wouldn't support a repeal is outlandish. There has been an active effort (although somewhat neutered) for years to get the '86 ban repealed, with the effort in the recent past focusing on legitimate bring backs predating the GCA of 1968 . It has been introduced a couple of time in Congress but hans't gotten enough traction. Imagine that.
The issue is the legality of 'war trophy's' at the time they were brought back that missed the 1968 amnesty, which was a joke. In the days prior to the communication avenues we now have, about the only way you would have known about the amnesty was if you went in a post office and happened to be looking at the wanted posters on the wall or read the military 'newspaper' for the base you were stationed at. Even then, many guys didn't 'register' stuff because they knew their 'war trophy' was already legal. Their CO signed off on the doc's.
The thought is that the weapons that were brought back were legal when they returned CONUS. The amnesty made them illegal. It was a goat **** for sure. The value of these weapons to the families of the deceased, particularly from the WWII and Korea eras, can be huge. There is no reason that a family should not realize the 'inheritance' value of say an MG42 legally brought back during/after the war.
I have had discussions with field agents that have told me the the plethora of weapons they get calls on from widows/families of WWII vets is astounding. ATF collects the items and destroys them unless there is some need for an example in their reference collection or some supervisor decides they want to go play with it for awhile. Sad.
, the ATF is as good about giving out incorrect gun information as the IRS is about giving false tax advice. The only ATF clarifications that have any weight are written documents from the technical branch. :(
This one I agree with, and remember, many, many, ATF agents in their various capacities are just clerical workers that go home at 5:00 and don't give a shit once they leave, it is a job. Now the enforcement branch that is looking for stuff is another story. Those guys pretty much do what they want, sometime to the detriment of constitutional rights. Think Waco or the Gonzalez kid in Miami - done with the personal approval from the USAG I might add. Some of these guys, believe it or not, look at you as the enemy. You have to be doing something wrong or be in violation in some way. Right?
This one I agree with, and remember, many, many, ATF agents in their various capacities are just clerical workers that go home at 5:00 and don't give a shit once they leave, it is a job. Now the enforcement branch that is looking for stuff is another story. Those guys pretty much do what they want, sometime to the detriment of constitutional rights. Think Waco or the Gonzalez kid in Miami - done with the personal approval from the USAG I might add. Some of these guys, believe it or not, look at you as the enemy. You have to be doing something wrong or be in violation in some way. Right?
Yeah, I agree here. I just didn't think there would be any harm in asking and the desk person that answered the phone didn't know the answer so they had a field investigator call me back. Not taking his word as scripture, but was interesting to hear his explanation nonetheless. He did go into detail about the lengths of the barrel and the overall length of the gun. Sounded like technically he knew a lot. I originally talked to someone in DC, but they referred the question to my local ATF in Tampa and gave me their number.
All I am saying is that calling those guys is like calling information for a phone # because we are too lazy to use the phone book.
My guess it the agent you spoke to may not even know what a Benelli M4 is, he only knew the regs relative to barrel length and overall length. It is very easy for you to get that info on your own with minimal effort.
All I am saying is that calling those guys is like calling information for a phone # because we are too lazy to use the phone book.
Yeah totally get what you are saying. Just read tons of forums before I called where peeps were arguing about it so I thought maybe they could clarify. It was informative but like you suggested not a complete answer.
I have a solution!!!!!
have the Russians export the shotguns with the magazine well closed and without a certain number of foreign parts for a lower price. Then add the US made parts here and open the mag well.
922r compliant. Problem solved.
sort of like the single stack wasrs that came in.
the Russians like making money. it wouldn't surprise me if something like this happened.
saiga 12's are fun... this is a bummer.
CleverNickname
01-23-11, 13:58
In the meantime I don't understand why SAIGA just doesn't build a US plant. It would stop a lot of BS. As a domestically produced shotgun it could be made so that 922 conversions wouldn't be needed.
They seem to be selling as many as they can build right now when they're just importing S12's. So from their point of view, until something changes, why bother?
What I was talking about was the guys who made buckets full of transferable sears immediately prior to 922(o). They make thousands of dollars on a $2 part. Repeal 922(o) and that revenue stream immediately evaporates.
As for the manufacturers wanting civilian MG business, not really. The only transferable MG you can currently even get factory service for is the AC556. Try sending your registered Colt in for service! They don't want the business because of the hostile media environment. It's just too risky from a PR standpoint. Gun companies don't like being on the 6 o'clock news. Besides, while the number of people willing to jump through the hoops to buy a MG has increased since 86, it's still a drop in the bucket compared to all the other gun business, 922(o) or not.
What I was talking about was the guys who made buckets full of transferable sears immediately prior to 922(o). They make thousands of dollars on a $2 part. Repeal 922(o) and that revenue stream immediately evaporates.
There are very few folks in that position (I only personally know of one person with more than 100 sears) and they have almost zero political power.
Robb Jensen
01-23-11, 17:48
They seem to be selling as many as they can build right now when they're just importing S12's. So from their point of view, until something changes, why bother?
Because if the firearm is domestically manufactured 922 doesn't mean shit, when was the last time Colt, BCM, Daniel Defense, Remington had to deal with 922(r)?. AND then instead of making it a retarded rifle style stock and extra bullshit trigger linkage, they could sell it with a collapsible stock and much better parts.
What I was talking about was the guys who made buckets full of transferable sears immediately prior to 922(o). They make thousands of dollars on a $2 part. Repeal 922(o) and that revenue stream immediately evaporates.
You are mistaken, the revenue stream would actually open up because manufacturing would resume. The initial 'revenue stream' you are talking about is long over. Thank God for Bill Flemming, Higgins, and Qualified for making a few thousand sears. FYI, they were never $2 and I am glad they all made some money.
As for the manufacturers wanting civilian MG business, not really. The only transferable MG you can currently even get factory service for is the AC556. Try sending your registered Colt in for service! They don't want the business because of the hostile media environment. It's just too risky from a PR standpoint. Gun companies don't like being on the 6 o'clock news. Besides, while the number of people willing to jump through the hoops to buy a MG has increased since 86, it's still a drop in the bucket compared to all the other gun business, 922(o) or not.
Colt Defense is a military contractor and has no interest in civilian sales. Colt's Firearms is the civilian and LE arm of the company and I don't think the PR standpoint is an issue for them any more than it is for any other company.
If you recall back in the day, Bill Ruger supported the AWB. That was his contribution to 'PR'.
There are other companies that will work on their stuff, but a good portion of the items in the registry are original C&R items or tubes and conversions. Either way, there may not be a factory to send them to. That is why guys like John Andrewski, Terry Dyer, and a few others continue to make a living.
Try sending a Ruger conversion in to Ruger for work and see what response you get.
CleverNickname
01-23-11, 20:06
Because if the firearm is domestically manufactured 922 doesn't mean shit, when was the last time Colt, BCM, Daniel Defense, Remington had to deal with 922(r)?. AND then instead of making it a retarded rifle style stock and extra bullshit trigger linkage, they could sell it with a collapsible stock and much better parts.
I realize that domestic production would allow the guns to be made with a pistol grip, collapsible stock, etc from the factory. But I'm looking at it from the Russian's point of view. The only reason they would want to go through the trouble of opening a factory in America is if making guns with evil features earned them more money. They don't seem to have any trouble selling neutered guns and there's really not any US-made semi-auto detachable magazine-fed shotguns with evil features competing with the neutered Saigas.
Now if the US import regs change and Saiga imports are stopped, or if some US manufacturer started making a semi-auto detachable magazine-fed shotgun with evil features and that gun started seriously cutting into Saiga's market share, then yes it would make sense for Saiga to open a factory over here. But unless that happens, I don't think they'd see it as worth the trouble.
Also, there would probably be some political implications in Russia from sending manufacturing jobs overseas to the US. :p
CleverNickname
01-23-11, 20:11
As for the manufacturers wanting civilian MG business, not really. The only transferable MG you can currently even get factory service for is the AC556. Try sending your registered Colt in for service! They don't want the business because of the hostile media environment. It's just too risky from a PR standpoint. Gun companies don't like being on the 6 o'clock news. Besides, while the number of people willing to jump through the hoops to buy a MG has increased since 86, it's still a drop in the bucket compared to all the other gun business, 922(o) or not.
Colt, FN and other huge (well relatively huge, as firearms companies go) manufacturers wouldn't care, but they're not the only class 2's out there. You don't think BCM, CMMG, Spike's, or any of a number of other medium-sized class 2's who currently sell factory AR15 SBRs to the general public wouldn't jump at the chance to sell factory M16s?
Colt, FN and other huge (well relatively huge, as firearms companies go) manufacturers wouldn't care, but they're not the only class 2's out there. You don't think BCM, CMMG, Spike's, or any of a number of other medium-sized class 2's who currently sell factory AR15 SBRs to the general public wouldn't jump at the chance to sell factory M16s?
If the ban was repealed, I'd buy a RR tomorrow, I don't have to deal with the SBR crap then (I plan on getting one in the next year).
Fun Switch would be nice, but, I'm not looking to burn $5 worth of ammo in about 1.5 seconds, except a few times as a novelty.
ETA: Also everyone assumes it's Saigas, we'll see. There's other shotguns out there (I forget which models) with bayonet lugs, etc.
So whats the official word on this?
Bunch of dumb ****s brought this on. All those people buying large magazines and then posting pictures on the internet about it with guns that don't comply with the import ban.
Dumbasses writing letters to the ATF about it.
These guns sold for too cheap money and every pile-of-shit person could afford one and now look what we have. I knew this would happen when these things started selling for this cheap.
They should have sold for $2000 a piece instead of $500.
People competing in 3-gun compeition on the Outdoor Channel with shotguns that don't comply with 922r and are oblivious to the requirements of the import ban. Most people that shoot competively are not seasoned gun people and don't know all the ins and outs of the law.
Bunch of dumb ****s brought this on. All those people buying large magazines and then posting pictures on the internet about it with guns that don't comply with the import ban.
Dumbasses writing letters to the ATF about it.
These guns sold for too cheap money and every pile-of-shit person could afford one and now look what we have. I knew this would happen when these things started selling for this cheap.
They should have sold for $2000 a piece instead of $500.
People competing in 3-gun compeition on the Outdoor Channel with shotguns that don't comply with 922r and are oblivious to the requirements of the import ban. Most people that shoot competively are not seasoned gun people and don't know all the ins and outs of the law.
So you can see how unenforcable and confusing 922r is......
So you can see how unenforcable and confusing 922r is......
The law is the law and it is not going to be repealed, ever.
The best we can do is not bring attention to these type of matters but some couldn't help themselves so this is where we are at now.
Amen. This is not the first time it has happened either. Recently was Bowers' "Accelerator" (I think that is what he called it) stock for the 10-22, and worse, was that you could send in your Olympic A1 receiver if it was damged and they would replace it with a new spec A2 receiver with the same serial number!! Some douche had to call ATF and ask a bunch of questions and single handidly ruined that one. He was crucified on some of the NFA boards and acted really stupid like he didn't understand what he had done wrong. "I only called ATF to ask them some questions".
The internet has been both good and bad for firearms enthuisasts, but the bad is often really bad. People read way into too much shit. Just let the sleeping dog lie for Christ's sake, and shut the hell up.
Amen. This is not the first time it has happened either. Recently was Bowers' "Accelerator" (I think that is what he called it) stock for the 10-22, and worse, was that you could send in your Olympic A1 receiver if it was damged and they would replace it with a new spec A2 receiver with the same serial number!! Some douche had to call ATF and ask a bunch of questions and single handidly ruined that one. He was crucified on some of the NFA boards and acted really stupid like he didn't understand what he had done wrong. "I only called ATF to ask them some questions".
The internet has been both good and bad for firearms enthuisasts, but the bad is often really bad. People read way into too much shit. Just let the sleeping dog lie for Christ's sake, and shut the hell up.
I agree.
However, the Olympic M16s were 3rd party conversions done by PAWS and Olympic was not the OEM of the machinegun, therefore, Olympic could not replace the lower and never had a legal standing to do so.
The correct path would have been to have the lower replaced by PAWS, but they were no longer in business at the time.
Many people still have them but those shotgun drums are actually illegal in VA. Under the same law that banned the Striker 12 in VA. "spring loaded drum mag" is what the law reads IIRC.
I don't believe that's correct, here's the section of law:
§ 18.2-308.8. Importation, sale, possession or transfer of Striker 12's prohibited; penalty.
It shall be unlawful for any person to import, sell, possess or transfer the following firearms: the Striker 12, commonly called a "streetsweeper," or any semi-automatic folding stock shotgun of like kind with a spring tension drum magazine capable of holding twelve shotgun shells. A violation of this section shall be punishable as a Class 6 felony.
The Saiga would need to have a folding stock to be in violation.
I do agree on the 922R portion here, it's not hard to get one to comply, but I will be sad if the BATF reclassifies them, or bans importation.
I don't believe that's correct, here's the section of law:
§ 18.2-308.8. Importation, sale, possession or transfer of Striker 12's prohibited; penalty.
It shall be unlawful for any person to import, sell, possess or transfer the following firearms: the Striker 12, commonly called a "streetsweeper," or any semi-automatic folding stock shotgun of like kind with a spring tension drum magazine capable of holding twelve shotgun shells. A violation of this section shall be punishable as a Class 6 felony.
The Saiga would need to have a folding stock to be in violation.
I do agree on the 922R portion here, it's not hard to get one to comply, but I will be sad if the BATF reclassifies them, or bans importation.
Could also be argued it is not "of like kind" as they operate much differently.
I agree.
However, the Olympic M16s were 3rd party conversions done by PAWS and Olympic was not the OEM of the machinegun, therefore, Olympic could not replace the lower and never had a legal standing to do so.
The correct path would have been to have the lower replaced by PAWS, but they were no longer in business at the time.
I know, I know, but dammit, it was a good thing until this butt hole do gooder decided to start making calls.
Some guys were going on the premise that Olympic was the manufacturer of the receiver while PAWS did the conversion, in essence they didn't physically 'make' the reciever. ATF sees it as drilling the hole for the sear is the receiver. Not unlike a hole in an HK weapon for the swing down pack and paddle mags is a 'receiver' or at least manufacturing a mg. The hole is a mg. Just another ATF goat ****.
LockenLoad
01-24-11, 18:08
I'm all about supporting US companies. But if that is true that makes me think a lot different about them. :confused:
Don't try to control the market by forcing others out politically, which just equals decreased options for us. Control the market buy bringing the best possible product to the market at the best possible price.
who do you thinks writes those 5 thousand page bills, not congressman(they just vote on ones they don't read), usually the financially interested parties, that's politics in the U.S. today sadly :(
I don't believe that's correct, here's the section of law:
§ 18.2-308.8. Importation, sale, possession or transfer of Striker 12's prohibited; penalty.
It shall be unlawful for any person to import, sell, possess or transfer the following firearms: the Striker 12, commonly called a "streetsweeper," or any semi-automatic folding stock shotgun of like kind with a spring tension drum magazine capable of holding twelve shotgun shells. A violation of this section shall be punishable as a Class 6 felony.
The Saiga would need to have a folding stock to be in violation.
I do agree on the 922R portion here, it's not hard to get one to comply, but I will be sad if the BATF reclassifies them, or bans importation.
For argument's sake it was also imported with a spring tensioned drum.
Domestic made drums are used, the guns are modified.
Did we ever get any word? They were announcing it Monday, today's Monday.
jeremy stanke
01-24-11, 19:06
according to the saiga forum it was just some guy spreading rumors. the atf's big announcement was they are going to start a study
according to the saiga forum it was just some guy spreading rumors. the atf's big announcement was they are going to start a study
Time to get another Saiga 12 and Norinco Trench gun and get the S12's converted.
according to the saiga forum it was just some guy spreading rumors. the atf's big announcement was they are going to start a study
Probably by the guy selling them for 2x on the gun boards for the past few days.
OneInchPunch
01-24-11, 21:35
bottom line is it is our freedoms they are screwing with and its not right. i have been and will be a responsible gun owner and law abiding citizen, and now because some asshole didn't understand or was scared of a gun, we are dangerously close to losing our right to own that gun. whats next? what if someone says that certain rifles or handguns are not necessary for civilian purchase? this is absolutely ****ed, pardon my French, how can we as gun owners not be mad a hell. don,t take my rights or freedoms when i have never done anything wrong. **** 922, and just accept the fact that no matter what you ban its not going to stop the spread of violence, in fact it will most assuredly worsen it. what do i know though, I'm just a evil black weapon owner. :angry:
http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/012611-study-on-importality-of-certain-shotguns.pdf
S12's banned from importation.:mad:
Belmont31R
01-27-11, 17:00
http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/012611-study-on-importality-of-certain-shotguns.pdf
S12's banned from importation.:mad:
It doesn't say Saiga's are banned....
You need to read between the lines.
"...Depth refers to the distance from the top plane of the
shotgun to the bottom plane of the shotgun...Neither measurement
includes the shoulder stock on traditional sporting shotgun designs."
Also note you can no longer put a light, vert grip/AFG or railed handguard on an imported shotgun.
You need to read between the lines.
"...Depth refers to the distance from the top plane of the
shotgun to the bottom plane of the shotgun...Neither measurement
includes the shoulder stock on traditional sporting shotgun designs."
Also note you can no longer put a light, vert grip/AFG or railed handguard on an imported shotgun.
Is this like a grandfather thing? What if you already have an imported shotty with those things?
Can someone break this down into dumbass plain English?
Belmont31R
01-27-11, 17:39
Can someone break this down into dumbass plain English?
The ATF is basically doing a study on the sporting purposes clause for imported shotguns.
Thats really all this is. The Saiga, as imported, still doesn't have any of the features listed as being non-sporting.
They have a 90 day comment period. The 3 gun and competition people should be emailing them about technically non-sporting guns being used in competition. They are basically trying to say defensive/tactical competitions are not sporting.
I wonder in light of recent SCOTUS decisions if there is a way to challenge the sporting purposes bullshit, since the 2nd Amendment wasn't designed to protect hunters or target shooters?
CleverNickname
01-27-11, 19:45
I wonder in light of recent SCOTUS decisions if there is a way to challenge the sporting purposes bullshit, since the 2nd Amendment wasn't designed to protect hunters or target shooters?
I don't think it's been specifically announced, but it's a common guess that one of the next suits to be brought to court by Alan Gura and the SAF (of Heller and McDonald fame) will be a challenge to the sporting purposes clause.
Belmont31R
01-27-11, 20:01
I wonder in light of recent SCOTUS decisions if there is a way to challenge the sporting purposes bullshit, since the 2nd Amendment wasn't designed to protect hunters or target shooters?
The thing is the Constitution ends are the borders. The government has the constitutional authority to regulate trade. Just because its a firearm which is protected doesn't mean its protected in the sense of international trade.
I can see the argument either way. I think that clause can be defeated because they are not restricting all or allowing everything. The government would likely have to show a compelling reason why non-classified sporting guns are 'discriminated' against. I can import a 600NE double gun but not a 12GA gun because it has a rail on the side of the handguard? I doubt they could use a "public safety" argument since you can buy USA made guns as exact copies of guns that are not allowed to be imported.
It would be an interesting decision to read....
Belmont31R
01-27-11, 20:06
Comments may be submitted by e-mail to shotgunstudy@atf.gov or by fax to (202)648-9601.
Faxed comments may not exceed 5 pages.
All comments must include name and mailing address.
ATF encourages submission of comments no later than May 1, 2011.
If any of you want to take the time to explain to the ATF why practical competitions should be considered sporting here you go. I don't know enough about those competitions to make a good argument.
The body of the ATF memo is sufficiently vague to give them latitude in what they may choose to ban for importation, which is why many will have trouble understanding their message.
battlestick
01-28-11, 10:07
Sorry but this post is just plain stupid. IDPA has nothing to do with this and it is beyond bizarre that you would blame them for it. If for some reason compensators become verboten is that IDPA's fault as well? What's next you are going to blame the lack of open carry laws on IDPA because the require contestants to conceal their firearms while shooting a stage. One thing has nothing to do with the other.
That post has plenty of relevance.
Suppose the NRA, or Remington, Winchester, or whomever stood behind Jim Zumbo's comment that Black Rifles do not belong in the sporting field?
Would that have given our gov't more room to enforce anti- black rifle laws? Damn straight it would.
You either support the second amendment, or you don't. If you want to pick and choose which guns you do or don't support, then to me you are only a self supporting bigot. You should be in Washington with the others out to only look out for themselves.
The Saiga, as imported, still doesn't have any of the features listed as being non-sporting.
"The Attorney General and ATF are not limited to these factors and therefore may consider any other factor determined to be relevant in making this determination."
"However, even if a shotgun does not have one of the features listed above, it may be considered “sporting” only if it meets the statutory requirements under section 925(d)(3)."
"The fact that a firearm or feature was initially designed for military or tactical applications, including offensive or defensive combat, may indicate that it is not a sporting firearm."
The Siaga is a modified AK...That can take available high capacity mags or drums.
The 922r implications are significant for anyone who wants to use an imported shotgun.
Originally Posted by rubberneck
Sorry but this post is just plain stupid. IDPA has nothing to do with this and it is beyond bizarre that you would blame them for it. If for some reason compensators become verboten is that IDPA's fault as well? What's next you are going to blame the lack of open carry laws on IDPA because the require contestants to conceal their firearms while shooting a stage. One thing has nothing to do with the other.
Horseshit.
You don't think a bunch of people running around with non compliant Saiga and Benelli shotguns had anything to do with this? You are fooling yourself. They are one of the main reasons why we now have this ruling.
Even after the five round magazine ban on shotguns in 2005, american companies still made extened magazine tubes for these shotguns and idoits would still put these on their Benelli shotguns and be in violation of the law.
IDPA and all the 3 gun organizations let people into their competitions with illegal firearms and took no action to correct this matter which has brought down a bunch of shit upon us now.
This new ruling is Obamas way for getting all this "under control" since the left doesn't have a way to pass a new gun control law through congress.
Wake the **** up dude.
The next thing they will declare non sporting is your accessory rail and Surefire X300 on your Glock and a threaded barrel on your HK USP, since both of those firearms are imported.
Horseshit.
You don't think a bunch of people running around with non compliant Saiga and Benelli shotguns had anything to do with this? You are fooling yourself. They are one of the main reasons why we now have this ruling.
Even after the five round magazine ban on shotguns in 2005, american companies still made extened magazine tubes for these shotguns and idoits would still put these on their Benelli shotguns and be in violation of the law.
IDPA and all the 3 gun organizations let people into their competitions with illegal firearms and took no action to correct this matter which has brought down a bunch of shit upon us now.
This new ruling is Obamas way for getting all this "under control" since the left doesn't have a way to pass a new gun control law through congress.
Wake the **** up dude.
The next thing they will declare non sporting is your accessory rail and Surefire X300 on your Glock and a threaded barrel on your HK USP, since both of those firearms are imported.
Can you elaborate on what illegal guns IDPA allows in competition? I help run some of the biggest IDPA matches in the country and I don't remember seeing any illegal guns or BATFE agents checking for them.
As for the "sporting purpose" clause, it needs to be burned at the stake right along with Congress' power to regulate interstate commerce.
Can you elaborate on what illegal guns IDPA allows in competition?
922r makes it illegal to put features on an imported shotgun that would make it un-importable as sporting. In 2005 the ATF determined that shotguns with a mag capacity greater than 5 rounds were not importable as sporting.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=60531
Can you elaborate on what illegal guns IDPA allows in competition? I help run some of the biggest IDPA matches in the country and I don't remember seeing any illegal guns or BATFE agents checking for them.
Your making my point for me. People were clueless as to what they were doing or what they were looking at.
All one has to do is simply turn on the outdoor channel and see plenty of people with illegal firearms in competitive shooting.
As for the "sporting purpose" clause, it needs to be burned at the stake right along with Congress' power to regulate interstate commerce.
Not going to happen.
Heavy Metal
01-28-11, 18:00
You need to read between the lines.
"...Depth refers to the distance from the top plane of the
shotgun to the bottom plane of the shotgun...Neither measurement
includes the shoulder stock on traditional sporting shotgun designs."
Also note you can no longer put a light, vert grip/AFG or railed handguard on an imported shotgun.
...unless you get the parts count under 10, then you can put whatever you want.
Heavy Metal
01-28-11, 18:02
Your making my point for me. People were clueless as to what they were doing or what they were looking at.
All one has to do is simply turn on the outdoor channel and see plenty of people with illegal firearms in competitive shooting.
Not going to happen.
I think there is an excellent chance you can get the SP clause removes in a lawsuit. It is very legalistically 'vague'. There is no definition of what exactly constitutes a 'sproting purpose' in the 68 GCA.
...unless you get the parts count under 10, then you can put whatever you want.
Not if you can't import the shotgun in the first place.
My guess, they will say it's modified from a pistol grip military design.
KalashniKEV
01-28-11, 19:24
There are some really interesting perspectives on this thread.
Must we really speculate who's fault it is? IDPA org's, IDPA competitors, bubbah with his wraithmaker 20?
I particularly found the, "These should cost $2K argument" intriguing...
Do we really think they have, or even need, a reason to target certain designs?
It's the government... they're not very bright, but if they interpret their purpose as "trying to curtail firearms freedom" then it becomes a competition to see who can do the biggest cannonball...
My personal feeling is that they're unaffected by letters, and that the "Gun Rights Organizations" aren't doing the right things, or enough of them.
Fighting them in court is incredibly costly, and they have unlimited resources and they own the game... but what we have is the United States Constitution.
They know it's completely cost prohibitive to step in the ring with them, but they also know they are guaranteed to lose. I will give my money directly to the cases, as many as they wish to bring, before I give to NRA, GOA, etc...
Robb Jensen
01-28-11, 20:15
All one has to do is simply turn on the outdoor channel and see plenty of people with illegal firearms in competitive shooting.
Not going to happen.
And then there was Christopher Columbus who DIDN'T think the world was flat. Sometimes people need to be optimistic and not always pessimistic.
For 3gun I shoot a FN SLP Mk1, from the factory it can hold 8 rounds in the mag plus 1 in the chamber for capacity. Not all 3gunners are breaking the law. Some shoot FNs, some shoot US made guns like Rem 1100s or Mossberg 930SPXs. Are there people who have illegally configured guns?, sure and most of those aren't really 'gun people' and are ignorant of the stupid law. This doesn't make right but it's just an observation.
Realistically the law is very hard to enforce, possession is not illegal just the making part. For all we know those competition shotguns are 922r compliant with enough US parts.
For what it's worth, the NRA has a press release on this, along with some contact info for comments to the ATF at the bottom of the article.
NRA Release (http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Federal/Read.aspx?id=6172)
I personally know 4 people that fall into the "bubba" category or the "average gun owner" category that went and got a Saiga with magazines over five rounds.
They have no clue there is such thing as the import ban which must be complied with.
When I told them all about this, all I got was full retard.
Completely over their head....
Many people still have them but those shotgun drums are actually illegal in VA. Under the same law that banned the Striker 12 in VA. "spring loaded drum mag" is what the law reads IIRC.
This only applies if you have a folding stock.
Heres the actual Virginia Code:
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...cod+18.2-308.8
§ 18.2-308.8. Importation, sale, possession or transfer of Striker 12's prohibited; penalty.
It shall be unlawful for any person to import, sell, possess or transfer the following firearms: the Striker 12, commonly called a "streetsweeper," or any semi-automatic folding stock shotgun of like kind with a spring tension drum magazine capable of holding twelve shotgun shells. A violation of this section shall be punishable as a Class 6 felony.
Must we really speculate who's fault it is? IDPA org's, IDPA competitors, bubbah with his wraithmaker 20?
.
All are to blame.
Competition shooting
Bubba
Places like Scheels and Cabelas also share the blame for selling American mag extensions for Benellis when there is no legal way to use this item other than being a Title 1 dealer sample.
For all we know those competition shotguns are 922r compliant with enough US parts.
How do you figure that when people are using current production Benelli M2s with magazines that stick past the muzzle?
There is no way to make an M2 compliant because US compliant parts don't exist for it.
KalashniKEV
01-28-11, 22:21
Completely over their head....
Maybe it was Civil Disobedience? :)
If they did know, and they refused to allow their actions to be dictated by what some entity *might* do then I respect them in a way.
If they didn't know...
This actually forces the challenge in a Heller/ Rosa Parks sort of way. Look on the bright side of things- wouldn't it be nice if the "sporting clause" became obsolete terminology just like we used to call standard capacity mags "high capacity?"
Your making my point for me. People were clueless as to what they were doing or what they were looking at.
All one has to do is simply turn on the outdoor channel and see plenty of people with illegal firearms in competitive shooting.
Not going to happen.
Not really. I have a 922r compliant Tromix Saiga. I've also made922r compliant FAL's on Imbel kits. I understand 922r quite well. I asked you where you saw these illegal guns at an IDPA match. You didn't respond to my question. You're blaming my sport and I'm not saying you're incorrect, but I am asking you to give an example of where you or the BATFE have observed illegal guns at an IDPA match. Care to elaborate?
I understand 922r quite well.
Obviously you didn't when you had to ask about the 2005 shotgun magazine rule and Todd.K had to correct you.
It is obvious some people don't want to believe what is happening, aren't smart enough to understand it, or think they are going to fight it.
They have their head in a hole like an ostrich. Completely delusional.
With this ruling, it sets a precedent which the ATF can ban any imported item they want.
Magazines for any foreign pistol like your SIG, Glock, HK, or Beretta.
Magazines for the FAL, AK, HK91, SCAR etc.
No more rails on your Glock pistol
No more pistols with threaded barrels.
Imported pistols that are physically blocked to take a high cap magazine and only take a proprietary 10 round magazine. Imported rifles are already like this.
Firearms that are black in color so we have to make them blue or green like the SIG550s in Canada.
Wake Up.
KalashniKEV
01-29-11, 09:00
It is obvious some people don't want to believe what is happening, aren't smart enough to understand it, or think they are going to fight it.
They have their head in a hole like an ostrich. Completely delusional.
With this ruling, it sets a precedent which the ATF can ban any imported item they want.
Magazines for any foreign pistol like your SIG, Glock, HK, or Beretta.
Magazines for the FAL, AK, HK91, SCAR etc.
No more rails on your Glock pistol
No more pistols with threaded barrels.
Imported pistols that are physically blocked to take a high cap magazine and only take a proprietary 10 round magazine. Imported rifles are already like this.
Firearms that are black in color so we have to make them blue or green like the SIG550s in Canada.
Wake Up.
I agree with you on all of the above.
There NEEDS to be a challenge to 925(d)(3) of GCA '68.
They may have reached too far on this one.
Cagemonkey
01-29-11, 09:00
I thinks its fair to say this is just the beginning of the Obama Admin. bypassing the legislature with regulations by various government agencies. Wait until he starts with the Executive Orders.
wouldn't it be nice if the "sporting clause" became obsolete
I agree but the sporting clause won't go away.
If it did, half the gun control in the US would go away and that isn't going to happen.
This is what happens when you give the judicial branch interpretation powers to the executive branch.
Obviously you didn't when you had to ask about the 2005 shotgun magazine rule and Todd.K had to correct you.
You're incorrect. I didn't ask and he didn't need to explain 922r rules to me (but thanks for the clarification Todd).
All I've ever asked here is which illegal guns are being used IDPA matches and to cite samples, which you appear to be refusing to do. If you fail to answer that simple question, then you argument has little merit. All you have to do is show where your position is supported by facts, rather than conjecture.
Are you willing to do that now that I'm asking for a third time? :rolleyes:
MountainRaven
01-31-11, 00:11
How do you figure that when people are using current production Benelli M2s with magazines that stick past the muzzle?
There is no way to make an M2 compliant because US compliant parts don't exist for it.
Not saying you're wrong, but that has made me think. Benelli and Winchester both employ exhibition shooters that violate US law on an almost daily basis? (Tom Knapp and Tim Bradley with their M2s, Novas, and Supernovas with extended tubes, and Patrick Flanigan with his SXP with extended tube.)
So is the question whether a Saiga 12 (IZ-109) that is imported and later converted from a "hunting" stock to a tricked-out, pistol-grip "military" or "competition" gun 922(r) compliant? How is this any different from "assault rifles" that are imported?
According to my interpretation of 922(r), the components count below cannot be 11 or more. (must be 10 or less - the ATF's wording is "more than 10")
Russian-made:
Receiver
Barrel
Trunion
Bolt
Bolt carrier
Gas piston
Handguard
Easily US-sourced:
Trigger
Hammer
Disconnector
Buttstock
Pistol Grip
Mag body (10 round)
Mag follower
Mag floorplate
More info at:
http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showforum=65
Not saying you're wrong, but that has made me think. Benelli and Winchester both employ exhibition shooters that violate US law on an almost daily basis? (Tom Knapp and Tim Bradley with their M2s, Novas, and Supernovas with extended tubes, and Patrick Flanigan with his SXP with extended tube.)
They are employees of a FFL.
They are employees of a FFL.
Are they? A lot of those guys who pull triggers for gun companies are paid on contract rather than being actual company employees. I don't specifically know what status Tom, Tim and Patrick have, but all of the "factory team shooters" I know personally are on contract.
Also, still wondering if you have a response to my original question? :confused:
If you want to make some noise about this yourself, you can go to http://www.usrkba.org/commenting-on-the-atf-shotgun-study
I've also contacted my Congresscritter and pointed out the end run around the legislature being attempted.
I've copied the suggested comment below:
The conclusion of the ATF study on the "importability of certain shotguns" is based on a flawed interpretation of 'sporting purposes' using outdated information, incomplete data and stands in violation of the 2nd Amendment to the United States Constitution as upheld in the 1939 US v. Miller Supreme Court decision, and 2008 District of Columbia v. Heller Supreme Court decision.
The study identifies 10 features which through a "working group" they recommend any shotgun with any of the identified features be barred from importation. Many of the features identified: integrated rails, light enhancing devices, forward pistol grips, collapsing/folding or telescoping stocks are in 'common use' on various firearms, rifles & shotguns today. 'In common use' was first mentioned in Miller, then reiterated in both Heller & the subsequent McDonald Supreme Court decisions protecting the individual right to keep and bear firearms for self defense. These features being in common use not just for military, law enforcement and personal protection have also found a niche in the sporting community and are practically ubiquitous in some applications. Briefly:
* Folding, telescoping & collapsible stocks provide an adjustability to the "length of pull". This permits the user to obtain a more ergonomic fit and further allows sportsmen to share the use of the firearm with family members of different stature and age. This feature allows fathers, mothers, sons & daughters to all be able to use a single firearm, as well as allows users to tailor the gun to their specific needs. Better ergonomics and fit offered by these stocks provide for better control of the firearm and enhanced safety.
* Magazine capacity over 5 rounds is an arbitrary and low number based on the industry today.
* Flash suppressors allow for faster follow up shots when hunting in fading light of hours near dawn or dusk.
* Integrated rails, forward pistol grips, & light enhancing devices all permit a more ergonomic and usable sporting shotgun and again are features in common use today. These features permit better ergonomics and control over the shotgun as well as the ability to easily mount accessories on the gun to enhance usability.
Additionally, many of these features facilitate the shooting sports participation of disabled Americans across the country. Depriving the market of shotguns with features which enables a person with a visual or muscular/skeletal impairment to participate in the shooting sports, is a violation of the Americans with Disabilities Act, and more importantly is a despicable attempt at preventing a protected minority in our society from enjoying the shooting sports. Included in this group is the Wounded Warrior 3 gun shooting team.
The study in many places indicated a need to evaluate 'sporting purposes' and declines to address what exactly qualifies as sporting. The study concludes that though USPSA has comparable membership to many organizations it does not 'qualify as sporting' under the current interpretation. Indeed, at 19,000 cited members USPSA dwarfs the membership of the USA Curling society which despite only having 13,000 members is an Olympic sport. This shows that ATF needs to re-investigate the definition of 'sporting purposes' for the use in determining importability of firearms. Because ATF uses not just questionable, but flawed logic in their study, ATF needs to reconstitute the "working group" to examine 'sporting purposes' in the post-Heller, post-McDonald light as well as with the understanding that practical & action competition shooting sports need also be considered.
In summary, this study should be shelved until 'sporting purposes' is redefined to include a more modern and truthful definition inclusive of action / competition shooting disciplines and the study needs to recognize that any one or even several of the features identified in the study do not disqualify a shotgun or other firearm for importation, that certain features which may be more common in military / militia context do enhance the ability of disabled citizens to exercise their right to keep and bear arms and prohibiting them from importation would violate the Americans with Disabilities Act and that some of these same features are protected by the 2nd Amendment, and reiterated via the Supreme Court rulings in Miller, Heller & McDonald.
Your name
Your mailing address
Well I finally got around to reading the entire "Study on the Importability of Certain Shotguns". Besides setting an example of how to use as many words as possible to say a fairly simple thing, it seems to me that the Saiga should remain on the list of importable shotguns. It doesn't have a separate pistol grip (as imported), it doesn't come with a magazine exceeding 5 rounds (as imported), it doesn't have an integrated rail system (as imported), it doesn't come with a forward pistol grip (as imported), and it's bulk receiver measurements and overall weight do not exceed the standards for importation. While it's certainly ugly (as imported), it's overall dimensions and handling characteristics fall well within those of any traditional semi-auto sporting shotgun. You could even argue that by locating the ammunition supply under the receiver rather than under the barrel, it enhances the pointability and swingability of the gun for skeet, trap and sporting clays, as well as general hunting.
They have obviously added the Saiga drum magazine manufactured in the U.S. because they want to make hay over the detachable magazine of the Saiga. But I believe they're making a logical fallacy in that argument. As imported, the Saiga meets all the "sporting purpose" standards of the 68' GCA. If it didn't, they never would have allowed it to be imported in the first place. Nothing in the two subsequent studies really changes that. If they try to bring up the "adaptability" of the Saiga into a "military" configuration once it gets here, then the counter-argument to that is that there's nothing in the 68' GCA that bans manufacture of "military" configuration firearms here in the U.S. Since it doesn't get "made" in that configuration until it's already here, then the 68' GCA doesn't apply. In this context, all the 68' GCA addresses is the importation of "non-sporting" firearms, not their manufacture or assembly in the U.S.
BATFE is free to pursue 922(r) violations if they so choose, as that's the "tool" Congress has given them. We all know that BATFE and the DOJ are loathe to pursue 922(r) cases, because many believe they will get laughed out of court. We all need to focus our efforts on exposing the logical fallacy of banning the Saiga, rather than ineffectively arguing that USPSA is a "sporting purpose". That dog won't hunt, at least not during this study. :(
far as 992r goes, From original Saiga 12, I can't add Magazine that hold more than 5 rounds far as law goes, Correct?
However after converted with US made parts, It can be added with magazine that hold more then 5 rounds. Am I following this right? Just like it apply to Any other shotguns. I know M4 is for sure.
Heavy Metal
02-05-11, 20:04
far as 992r goes, From original Saiga 12, I can't add Magazine that hold more than 5 rounds far as law goes, Correct?
However after converted with US made parts, It can be added with magazine that hold more then 5 rounds. Am I following this right? Just like it apply to Any other shotguns. I know M4 is for sure.
Once you add the necessary parts, according to the law it is no longer an imported but a domestic item.
far as 992r goes, From original Saiga 12, I can't add Magazine that hold more than 5 rounds far as law goes, Correct?
However after converted with US made parts, It can be added with magazine that hold more then 5 rounds. Am I following this right? Just like it apply to Any other shotguns. I know M4 is for sure.
Correct.
The next thing they will declare non sporting is your accessory rail and Surefire X300 on your Glock and a threaded barrel on your HK USP, since both of those firearms are imported.
922r only applies to long guns and rifles. I'm all for following a train of thought, but don't start making up crap to support your argument. Pistols are not bound under 922r.
922r only applies to long guns and rifles. I'm all for following a train of thought, but don't start making up crap to support your argument. Pistols are not bound under 922r.
I already know that and it is irrelavent.
Why do MKE SP89s do not come with a forearm????
Why do they have some funky block in them????
The ATF has the power to decide what will be imported and what won't as every firearm has to be ran by them, to get their approval.
Just_Plain_T.
02-10-11, 08:10
I already know that and it is irrelavent.
Actually, it is relevant. They don't use the "sporting purposes" argument with handguns because the law isn't written that way. The "Nonsporting" restrictions where 922r comes in is exclusively targeting rifles and shotguns.
Now, there are laws for importing of handguns. But "sporting" isn't one of the restrictions.
Why do MKE SP89s do not come with a forearm????
Why do they have some funky block in them????
That has nothing to do with 922r, sporting purposes, etc.
That is because of the legal definition of a handgun in federal law. Under the legal definitions, a "handgun"cannot have a foregrip because it is designed to be fired one handed (paraphrasing, I don't have the actual law in front of me)
As the MKE SP89 also lacks a stock (therefore it's not a rifle), and it clearly doesn't meet the definition of a shotgun, if the SP89 had that forearm, it'd fall into AOW land.
I don't agree with it or support it, but that is the law and how it is written. My point was that they are NOT using 922r or other "non-sporting" laws to restrict how the SP89 is imported. Your example is flawed.
The ATF has the power to decide what will be imported and what won't as every firearm has to be ran by them, to get their approval.
True, though they have limitations to what they can do. They can't arbitrarily ban everything (if they could have, they probably would have).
Or in other words, they can stretch existing law. They can't invent new laws, which means they can't "do anything they want."
Actually, it is relevant. They don't use the "sporting purposes" argument with handguns because the law isn't written that way. The "Nonsporting" restrictions where 922r comes in is exclusively targeting rifles and shotguns.
Now, there are laws for importing of handguns. But "sporting" isn't one of the restrictions.
That has nothing to do with 922r, sporting purposes, etc.
That is because of the legal definition of a handgun in federal law. Under the legal definitions, a "handgun"cannot have a foregrip because it is designed to be fired one handed (paraphrasing, I don't have the actual law in front of me)
As the MKE SP89 also lacks a stock (therefore it's not a rifle), and it clearly doesn't meet the definition of a shotgun, if the SP89 had that forearm, it'd fall into AOW land.
I don't agree with it or support it, but that is the law and how it is written. My point was that they are NOT using 922r or other "non-sporting" laws to restrict how the SP89 is imported. Your example is flawed.
True, though they have limitations to what they can do. They can't arbitrarily ban everything (if they could have, they probably would have).
Or in other words, they can stretch existing law. They can't invent new laws, which means they can't "do anything they want."
I don't need a lecture about the NFA and the Import Ban from you.
I know 922r doesn't apply to handgun. I never said it did. I said this new ruling sets a precident for them to rule however they want.
I know a pistol cannot have a vertical grip.
I am well versed about what makes a AOW, SBR, SBS.
An imported pistol can have a regular forearm. Example---> Draco AK Pistol from Romania
Why doesn't the MKE have a forearm and the Draco does? Answer this question. You can't.
It is because they have arbitrarily ruled on this matter.
There is nothing in the import ban about a picatinny rail, light, or vertical grip either. A picatinny rail didn't even exist in 1989.
GEEZUZ..
scottyrant, how many times did you use I in your last post? thread about you?
just annoying, seriously?
why don't you two compare genitals via PM, no one gives two shits about your mindless offtopic banter.
However, it might be nice to know current status of saiga importation
rattlesnake
02-10-11, 12:04
I'd also like to know. I can get this locally http://www.jasonsguns.com/Display.aspx?id=3816 , but $750 is the lowest this guy is willing to go. I am trying to figure out if I should buy it or not.
I got quoted for $5xx.xx at local gun seller. (Based on home business)
But, his waiting for next shipment. Who knows when it will be though.
I don't need a lecture about the NFA and the Import Ban from you.
I know 922r doesn't apply to handgun. I never said it did. I said this new ruling sets a precident for them to rule however they want.
I know a pistol cannot have a vertical grip.
I am well versed about what makes a AOW, SBR, SBS.
An imported pistol can have a regular forearm. Example---> Draco AK Pistol from Romania
Why doesn't the MKE have a forearm and the Draco does? Answer this question. You can't.
It is because they have arbitrarily ruled on this matter.
There is nothing in the import ban about a picatinny rail, light, or vertical grip either. A picatinny rail didn't even exist in 1989.
what ruling? There is no ruling.
I don't need a lecture about the NFA and the Import Ban from you.
I know 922r doesn't apply to handgun. I never said it did. I said this new ruling sets a precident for them to rule however they want.
I know a pistol cannot have a vertical grip.
I am well versed about what makes a AOW, SBR, SBS.
An imported pistol can have a regular forearm. Example---> Draco AK Pistol from Romania
Why doesn't the MKE have a forearm and the Draco does? Answer this question. You can't.
It is because they have arbitrarily ruled on this matter.
There is nothing in the import ban about a picatinny rail, light, or vertical grip either. A picatinny rail didn't even exist in 1989.
To be fair, you asked the questions (granted they were rhetorical, but that doesn't always translate well on the internet). Seems to me that you're perfectly willing to make blanket statements and ask questions you don't want the answers to, but you refuse to answer questions posed to you. What gives? :confused:
what ruling? There is no ruling.
They found rails, lights, and vert grips to be unsporting in the study.
Do you want to bet right now after the 90 day comment session, that all this is just going to go away? It isn't going to go away. They have been working on this stuff heavily for the past 2 years and even since the AWB expired.
The gun control movement is not dead regardless of how many worthless Heller like cases are ruled upon or how many CCW laws are passed. It is alive and well and has taken on another form.
They are trying their best to rule this as unsporting. If they do after the comment session, then what?
After the 2005 shotgun magazine and parts kits bans, it was perfectly clear to any serious firearms person what they were trying to do. They are going to try to ban any imported item they want.
922r doesn't apply to part kits as parts kits don't meet the legal definition of a firearm and they banned the barrels out of them anyway.
You people are caught up in the trivial bullshit and are failing to see the big picture here.
Wondering if a Saiga is safe is irrelavent now. You should have bought one five years ago when they first came out. It was obvious a day like this would come if you have been paying attention. How do you think the Daewoo 12 got banned 18 yeas ago?
Back during the Benelli M1014 debacle in 2004, there were people on other sites talking about this very situation that is playing out now.
I could care less if someone is going to get left out of a gun ban, when they had plenty of time to get their shit together and could have been stockpiling for the past 6 or 7 years.
platoonDaddy
02-10-11, 21:30
Feb 4th of this year I posted a link to a WND article about this subject and a link to the Jan ATF Study.
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=72422&page=3
The following is cut from the WND article: http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=258513
Unfortunately this "sporting purpose" language appears in several places in federal gun laws. These laws have been used successfully to ban several specific styles of shotguns in the past – not just banned from import or banned from sale, but banned from possession without special government permission and taxes.
The Armsel Striker and its various derivatives, for example, were little-known, repeating, 12-gauge shotguns capable of firing 12 shots as fast as the shooter could pull the trigger. In 1994 the ATF declared that these shotguns and their clones were not suitable for sporting purposes.
The National Firearms Act, or NFA, and Gun Control Act, or GCA, say that, with the exception of shotguns that are generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes, any firearm with a bore greater than one half inch is a "destructive device." A destructive device, or DD http://definitions.uslegal.com/d/destructive-device/, is restricted almost exactly like a machinegun. To own one you must undergo a background investigation and get the permission of your local chief law enforcement official and also pay a special $200 transfer tax.
By declaring that the Striker was not suitable for sporting purposes, ATF removed the guns from the shotgun exception, automatically relegating them to DD status. People who already owned these guns were given a window during which they were required to register them, destroy them or turn them over to ATF. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armsel_Striker
ATF Rul. 94-1 http://www.preventtyranny.com/Sources/Guns/ATF_Ruling_94-1.PDF
NFA, 26 U.S.C. Chapter 53 http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-appendix-a.pdf
If they're going to force me to buy a $200 DD stamp, they can rest assured I'll chop the barrel shorter than 18" while I'm at it since that silly rule will no longer apply. 922r does not apply to NFA firearms either.
Actually, in a hypothetical worst case scenario, I'd save myself $195 and do a Form 1 for an AOW before it came to pass.
Honestly though, I'm quite happy with my "freedom" to own 18+ inch barreled, non-NFA Saigas.
Just_Plain_T.
02-10-11, 22:28
If they're going to force me to buy a $200 DD stamp, they can rest assured I'll chop the barrel shorter than 18" while I'm at it since that silly rule will no longer apply. 922r does not apply to NFA firearms either.
Unfortunately, MN has a state law against its own defined "short barrel shotguns." Otherwise I'd be thinking along your plans.
I'm not sure what my plan is for the worst case. I'm (perhaps incorrectly) hoping it's all just hype and not anything that will happen (or if it does happen, it's just an import ban instead of forcing the DD)
I'm (perhaps incorrectly) hoping it's all just hype and not anything that will happen (or if it does happen, it's just an import ban instead of forcing the DD)
You and me both. I'm still submitting feedback to the BATF study and trying to get the word out in the meantime, of course.
They found rails, lights, and vert grips to be unsporting in the study.
Do you want to bet right now after the 90 day comment session, that all this is just going to go away? It isn't going to go away. They have been working on this stuff heavily for the past 2 years and even since the AWB expired.
The gun control movement is not dead regardless of how many worthless Heller like cases are ruled upon or how many CCW laws are passed. It is alive and well and has taken on another form.
They are trying their best to rule this as unsporting. If they do after the comment session, then what?
After the 2005 shotgun magazine and parts kits bans, it was perfectly clear to any serious firearms person what they were trying to do. They are going to try to ban any imported item they want.
922r doesn't apply to part kits as parts kits don't meet the legal definition of a firearm and they banned the barrels out of them anyway.
You people are caught up in the trivial bullshit and are failing to see the big picture here.
Wondering if a Saiga is safe is irrelavent now. You should have bought one five years ago when they first came out. It was obvious a day like this would come if you have been paying attention. How do you think the Daewoo 12 got banned 18 yeas ago?
Back during the Benelli M1014 debacle in 2004, there were people on other sites talking about this very situation that is playing out now.
I could care less if someone is going to get left out of a gun ban, when they had plenty of time to get their shit together and could have been stockpiling for the past 6 or 7 years.
Still refusing to answer? Cat got your tongue? :rolleyes:
Ignoring me rarely works. :D
922r does not apply to NFA firearms either.
I can find no actual evidence of this, in fact I read the law to specifically ban making any imported rifle or shotgun into a configuration that cannot be imported as sporting.
NFA firearms CANNOT be imported as sporting.
I can find no actual evidence of this, in fact I read the law to specifically ban making any imported rifle or shotgun into a configuration that cannot be imported as sporting.
NFA firearms CANNOT be imported as sporting.
It appears the BATF has gone back and forth on whether 922r applies to NFA.
Here's a letter that claims it does:
http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/9324/atfresponseregardingpar.jpg
Then there's this opposing letter, posted on the PAFOA forums: http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/13427-few-nfa-sbr-questions.html
"Originally Posted by Sterling Nixon, Chief, Firearms Technology Branch on Oct 11 2006
Dear Mr DRUGRUNR
This is in response to your letter dated September 28, 2006 to the Bureau Of Alchohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), Firearms Technology Branch (FTB), in which you inqure concerning the legality of assembling short-barreled rifles (SBRs) using only imported parts.
As you are aware, SBRs are firearms controlled by the National Firearms Act (NFA). The ATF NFA Branch has previously received applications to make SBRs and shotguns from imported firearms. Since the making of these NFA weapons would render these firearms non-importable under 18 U.S.C. Section 925(d)(3), the ATF Office of Chief Councel Was consulted regarding ATF's position on the application of 18 U.S.C. Section 922(r) to the assembly of NFA Fireams. The response from the Office of Chief Counsel was as follows:
In our view, the making of NFA weapons from lawfully imported rifles and shotguns would not violate section 922(r). The legislative history of section 922(r) indicates that it was intended to preclude the circumvention of the importation restriction on nonsporting rifles and shotguns by importing parts for "nonsporting' firearms and assembling them in the United States using domestically manufactured frames or receivers capable of accepting imported parts. [See the President's Message to Congress Transmitting A Draft of Proposed Legislation Entitled The "Comprehensive Violent Crime Control Act Of 1989," H.R. Doc. No. 101-73, 101st Cong., 1st Sess. 81 (June 15, 1989)]. There is no evidence that this assembly restriction was intended to preclude the making of NFA weapons.
Further, as noted above, section 925(d)(3) prohibits the importation of three types firearms, i.e., nonsporting, NFA weapons, and surplus military weapons. Significantly, section 922(r) only addresses the assembly of "nonsporting" firearms and not the making of NFA weapons.
Since section 922(r) only addresses the assembly of "nonsporting" firearms, the lawfull making of short barrel rifles or shotguns would not be precluded by section 922(r).
Please note that this legal opinion applies very specifically to SBRs and shotguns which are made by shortening the barrel(s) of complete firearms which have been lawfully imported; it does not apply to the assembly of NFA weapons from imported parts.
With regard to the scenario(s) you proposed, if you are interested in manufacturing a short-barreled AK pattern rifle, you must do so only by shortening the original barrel of a lawfully imported rifle. This shortening procedure must not be preformed until you submit an ATF Form 1 ("Application to Make and Register a Firearm").
In Addition, FTB advises you to contact authorities wheere you reside to determing what, if any, State laws or local ordinances govern production or possession of such weapons.
We thank you for your inquiry and trust that foregoing has been responsive.
Sincerely yours,
Richard Vogg?? (can't read it)
for Sterling Nixon
Chief, Firearms Technology Branch"
Other opposing arguments include:
once the gun's on a Form 1 it is "manufactured" as a US-made firearm, and therefore no longer considered imported.
922r applies only to "sporting" arms, and NFA weapons are generally not considered "sporting".
922r does not apply to NFA firearms either.
Yes it does.
As of the Summer of 2009 a new ruling was issued that NFA must comply with 922r.
The SBR loop hole for parts kit builds has now been closed.
It appears the BATF has gone back and forth on whether 922r applies to NFA.
Here's a letter that claims it does:
http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/9324/atfresponseregardingpar.jpg
Then there's this opposing letter, posted on the PAFOA forums: http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/13427-few-nfa-sbr-questions.html
Other opposing arguments include:
once the gun's on a Form 1 it is "manufactured" as a US-made firearm, and therefore no longer considered imported.
922r applies only to "sporting" arms, and NFA weapons are generally not considered "sporting".
Guns are not manufactured on a form 1.
Guns are made on a form 1.
There is a distint legally defined difference between the two.
You cannot assemble a firearm with more than 10 imported parts in a configuration that is otherwise non importable, no matter what type of paperwork you think you can do.
Pretty simple,
Any kind of Imported firearms you have, long as you have proper parts (US made) in there you are GTG.
I believe ATF is more concerned about detachable magazine on shotguns.
Thanks, Scot and Todd. Looks like 922r does apply to NFA guns as of mid-2009.
TacticalTaco
02-13-11, 20:46
It baffles me that the ATF doesn't want these, but allows people to have 150rd AR drums.......amazing.
I believe ATF is more concerned about detachable magazine on shotguns.
Well as long as they don't close the belt-fed loophole...
http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm98/phyrigian/wheapons/saiga-12_belt_fed.jpg
rattlesnake
02-13-11, 22:44
Do I buy this or not? Guy will do $750 which IMO is high. http://www.jasonsguns.com/Display.aspx?id=3816
I know 922r doesn't apply to handgun. I never said it did. I said this new ruling sets a precident for them to rule however they want.
The next thing they will declare non sporting is your accessory rail and Surefire X300 on your Glock and a threaded barrel on your HK USP, since both of those firearms are imported.
So even though the law doesn't apply to any handgun whatsoever, they can apply the law to "non-sporting" handguns? Brilliant logic. :rolleyes:
Quit backpeddling and quit making up fake interpretations of the law in an attempt to prove your argument. It's just plain pathetic and detracts from any credibility you might have had. 922r does not apply to handguns, regardless of what "features" the handgun has.
So even though the law doesn't apply to any handgun whatsoever, they can apply the law to "non-sporting" handguns? Brilliant logic. :rolleyes:
Quit backpeddling and quit making up fake interpretations of the law in an attempt to prove your argument. It's just plain pathetic and detracts from any credibility you might have had. 922r does not apply to handguns, regardless of what "features" the handgun has.
How does it apply then to picatinny rails, lights, and foregrips, genius?
Those are not listed in any law.
I haven't backpeddled once.
"The Attorney General and ATF are not limited to these factors and therefore may consider any other factor determined to be relevant in making this determination."
All firearms imported (for civilian use) must meet "sporting" requirements. ADDITIONALLY, semi auto rifles and shotguns cannot be made in a non-importable configuration with more than ten imported parts on the 922r list.
Any change in the way the ATF determines sporting suitability can affect the importation of ANY firearm, pistol, rifle, or shotgun.
I doubt we will see any AK's imported in the near future, even "neutered" of evil features. No way to get around the fact the AK was designed for military use.
"The fact that a firearm or feature was initially designed for military or tactical applications, including offensive or defensive combat, may indicate that it is not a sporting firearm."
How does it apply then to picatinny rails, lights, and foregrips, genius?
Those are not listed in any law.
I haven't backpeddled once.
Do you even know the first thing about how the ATF derives its authority? The ATF has been given carte blanche to interpret the existing laws, but they cannot rewrite the laws or make new laws. That means that when the law says that we can only import rifles and shotguns that have a "legitimate sporting purpose," then they can decide what is meant by "sporting purpose." If they don't like enlarged trigger guards on Sako hunting rifles, guess what? They can ban those too.
Lights are aftermarket and are rarely included with a gun, so no, it wouldn't affect importation.
"The Attorney General and ATF are not limited to these factors and therefore may consider any other factor determined to be relevant in making this determination."
All firearms imported (for civilian use) must meet "sporting" requirements. ADDITIONALLY, semi auto rifles and shotguns cannot be made in a non-importable configuration with more than ten imported parts on the 922r list.
Any change in the way the ATF determines sporting suitability can affect the importation of ANY firearm, pistol, rifle, or shotgun.
I doubt we will see any AK's imported in the near future, even "neutered" of evil features. No way to get around the fact the AK was designed for military use.
"The fact that a firearm or feature was initially designed for military or tactical applications, including offensive or defensive combat, may indicate that it is not a sporting firearm."
Just because the ATF does it does not make it legal. Currently, they're using the "sporting" clause to control imports of rifles, shotguns, and NFA items. The NFA item laws are a loophole, as they are "restricted" to begin with and therefore require approval to own in the first place (edited to read more clearly). The ATF only has the authority to interpret, not to make laws.
Your quote came from page 18 of the study for the importation of shotguns. That quote refers specifically to shotguns (although based on the derivative of the original law, it covers rifles as well). It does not cover handguns, it only refers to laws that require that a firearm be of a sporting nature (again, rifles and shotguns).
Sure, they can "declare" that you can't import a P226 - that doesn't mean that it's law (it isn't) and it WOULD fall before a court of law. This is the exact equivalent of the ATF saying that you can't mail a long gun via USPS - they have zero authority in the matter. The law clearly states that you can, so you can. Now, can they determine what packing materials you can use? Maybe - that's the interpretation, but that's all they can do. They can only interpret laws, not rewrite them. If handguns are exempt (or not covered by the law), then they are exempt, period.
Do you even know the first thing about how the ATF derives its authority? The ATF has been given carte blanche to interpret the existing laws, but they cannot rewrite the laws or make new laws. That means that when the law says that we can only import rifles and shotguns that have a "legitimate sporting purpose," then they can decide what is meant by "sporting purpose." If they don't like enlarged trigger guards on Sako hunting rifles, guess what? They can ban those too. However, they cannot apply the laws to handguns because the law is specifically worded to not include handguns. It was written that way on purpose. Uh, No.
Dude,
Todd covered this above but you did not read it. Here is the law regarding the importation of firearms:
(d) The Attorney General shall authorize a firearm or ammunition to be imported or brought into the United States or any possession thereof if the firearm or ammunition--
(1) is being imported or brought in for scientific or research purposes, or is for use in connection with competition or training pursuant to chapter 401 of title 10;
(2) is an unserviceable firearm, other than a machinegun as defined in section 5845(b) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 (not readily restorable to firing condition), imported or brought in as a curio or museum piece;
(3) is of a type that does not fall within the definition of a firearm as defined in section 5845(a) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 and is generally recognized as particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes, excluding surplus military firearms, except in any case where the Attorney General has not authorized the importation of the firearm pursuant to this paragraph, it shall be unlawful to import any frame, receiver, or barrel of such firearm which would be prohibited if assembled; or
(4) was previously taken out of the United States or a possession by the person who is bringing in the firearm or ammunition.
Have you not heard of the BATFE points system for handguns? That is an example of how they determine if a handgun is sporting or not.
Find me the law where pistols have to be sporting - you won't find it anywhere..
No I won't because the law does not specify pistols, rifles or shotguns. It specifies firearms. 925(d) posted above states all imported firearms must be sporting. Pistols are firearms, see how that works?
No I won't because the law does not specify pistols, rifles or shotguns. It specifies firearms. 925(d) posted above states all imported firearms must be sporting. Pistols are firearms, see how that works?
Actually, I do. I just spent about 20 minutes reading through the entirety of 925 and I'll eat crow on that one. I've read bits and pieces, but I've always seen it in reference to the defining/explaining of 922, not as a standalone.
My apologies.
Ok, OK.....I'm cringing as I write this, but I haven't heard anything about any new Saiga's coming in! Has anyone heard anything are these things toast?
Does anyone out there know of or have a Saiga 12 they would be willing to sell in the 600.00 range?
Thanks
platoonDaddy
03-23-11, 04:36
[QUOTE=HK51Fan;947448
Does anyone out there know of or have a Saiga 12 they would be willing to sell in the 600.00 range?
Thanks[/QUOTE]
http://www.copshopmd.com/The_Cop_Shop/Homepage.html
Cop Shop in Baltimore selling them for $550.
http://www.copshopmd.com/The_Cop_Shop/Homepage.html
Cop Shop in Baltimore selling them for $550.
Called them and they told me they've been out of them for almost a month!?
Thanks for trying
"The Attorney General and ATF are not limited to these factors and therefore may consider any other factor determined to be relevant in making this determination."
All firearms imported (for civilian use) must meet "sporting" requirements. ADDITIONALLY, semi auto rifles and shotguns cannot be made in a non-importable configuration with more than ten imported parts on the 922r list.
Any change in the way the ATF determines sporting suitability can affect the importation of ANY firearm, pistol, rifle, or shotgun.
I doubt we will see any AK's imported in the near future, even "neutered" of evil features. No way to get around the fact the AK was designed for military use.
"The fact that a firearm or feature was initially designed for military or tactical applications, including offensive or defensive combat, may indicate that it is not a sporting firearm."
I seriously doubt that. I understand what you're saying, but I still seriously doubt it.
I seriously doubt that. I understand what you're saying, but I still seriously doubt it.
You want to bet money on that? Like the type of money these guns will be worth if a ban comes?
SilentType
04-13-11, 20:55
There are essentially two sets of Federal Laws. The first set is found in the United States Code (USC) and is the codification of Congressional Acts that have been signed into law by the President. The sporting puposes clause was part of the 1968 Gun Control Act (GCA) and is codified under title 18 of the USC.
The US Supreme Court has held when terms in a statute are left undefined for purposes of enforcement a federal regulatory agency like the US Patent and Trade Office or the ATF can define those terms to give the law effect. This is where the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR)comes into play. The CFR is where the ATF will be able to codify restriction on imported shotguns to give force to the "sporting purposes" clause. The CFR is where agencies like the ATF codify their rules that in turn determine what is and what is not a violation of the USC. So basically Congress doesn't do its job and the ATF are allowed to do it for them to honor their "intent."
The "sporting purposes" clause in the GCA is most likely in the wake of Heller now unconstitutional. Heller was clear and so was MacDonald that the Second Amendment protects an individual's right to keep and bear arms for the purposes of defense. The sporting purposes clause denies all citizens "defensive firearms" based solely on the government's determination that they can only have guns suited for a "sporting purpose." Unfortunately the most difficult part of defeating such a clause in the courts is to obtain standing. :(
The ATF is what it is a government regulatory agency that exist for the sole purpose of regulating firearms. So it's not shock that when given the opportunity to author a new regulation they will do so to make themselves relevant and justify their existence. The real villians here is the Congress for a) allowing the GCA to pass, and b) for going for decades without amending the GCA to repeal or at least define the "sporting purposes" clause. During the 2008 Presidential Election John McCain was asked about the "sporting purposes" clause and had no idea what it was so it's not even on their radar screen.
This is the problem with an all powerful and ever growing Federal Government. Bureaucrats are paid to be bureaucrats and they will continue to further and further restrict our rights, because all they do all day is sit in their DC offices looking at ways to "organize" things better. This places us into tight little confines of regulations that you need to have a JD to navigate.
I didn't read through the whole thread so I'm not sure if it was posted already but here's the ATF's official document (http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/012611-study-on-importality-of-certain-shotguns.pdf) on the matter.
I didn't read through the whole thread so I'm not sure if it was posted already but here's the ATF's official document (http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/012611-study-on-importality-of-certain-shotguns.pdf) on the matter.
Thanks for posting the official document.
In the wake of Heller and MacDonald I have to wonder why all of the pro-2A groups do not come together and challenge the sporting purposes crap in the 1968 GCA?
One would think that would be a logical step. In addition to the fact that this would be the time to do it before any new(er) Supreme Court judges could be appointed under President Obama whoever comes next.
Combat_Diver
04-15-11, 05:41
More of a joke from ATF. They state the sporting clause many change on what is sporting then throw out USAPSA/ISPC as a sport and go back to traditional dying skeet/trap. No reference is made at all to the militia aspect under US Code of every citizen. Nor any USSC decisions. Notice under type of stocks it never mentioned any of the collaspable stocks that Rem/Moss put on their turkey guns.
CD
It also says lighweight shotguns are sporting and heavy ones are not for sporting purposes. But!!! folding stocks "to make them lighter" are not for sporting purposes. o.O
I can't tell if it's stupidity or barely held in check contempt...
In the wake of Heller and MacDonald I have to wonder why all of the pro-2A groups do not come together and challenge the sporting purposes crap in the 1968 GCA?
I don't know if you would have any standing. They don't say you can't own one, just that it can't be imported.
TheGreenRanger24
04-16-11, 13:09
It also says lighweight shotguns are sporting and heavy ones are not for sporting purposes. But!!! folding stocks "to make them lighter" are not for sporting purposes. o.O
I can't tell if it's stupidity or barely held in check contempt...
Tough call there. Bureaucrats aren't exactly known for using logic or common sense when dealing with issues . . . After reading that report I can honestly say I feel stupider (not dumber, flat out brain cells dying from bs and ass-hattery). ATF isn't concerned with changing regulations with the times; they are only worried about reinforcing the same stupid crap that previous idiots made into law. "Sporting purposes" is such a joke anyway. "Police" type competitions aren't considered sporting events even though they are . . . yeah, that makes sense. Good job ATF feasibility study bureaucrats; your pandering to pansy asses is keeping our country safe from the big bad importable shotguns. :rolleyes: Tax payers paid for that load of crap; I want my money back.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.