View Full Version : Daniel Defense DDM4 or S&W M&P15 VTAC for $1200?
CarlosLehder
01-23-11, 10:03
I was just looking for some outside thoughts on the matter. After sometime I have narrowed things down to the DDM4 or the S&W VTAC M&P15 (2009 version) for $1200 total.
I considered the 6920 for around the same price, but the total with the colt goes up considering future modifications that I would like.
The DDM4 and VTAC are ready to go out of the box, aside from adding sights to the VTAC.
Any other suggestions in this price range? I've looked at Colt and BCM, but their basic models come in at this $ range, and I am not really looking to go beyond that on the gun itself.
Many Thanks
Cagemonkey
01-23-11, 10:12
Get the Daniel Defense. Larry Vickers advices and help set them up. Other than a Colt its pretty close to Mil Spec.
Have you considered a mid length gas system? If you have, my mistake.
I was in a similar position, and I went with DD. I considered BCM, but it was the most expensive, I liked the colt, but for the same amount of money, I got the DD with a mid length, with better rails, a nicer stock, and a magpul trigger guard.
I know most of those things are small, but I couldn't be happier. everything about the rifle is top quality, and their customer support is great.
CarlosLehder
01-23-11, 10:34
Yes I have, the dd v3, and v5s are midlengths. I like the 12" rail more than the 7 or 9" rail on tthe ddm4 v3.
I just thought the vtac for $1100 seemed like a good deal for what's included out of the box, same for the Daniel defense. Only addition that I would do to either is an optic of some sort
Both are nice rifles, but I think the percentage of folks here will probably give the nod to DD simply for outstanding rep. for reliability and quality. I have yet to find a person that did not give their DD stellar reviews. Both shoot very well, from my experience.
I think the best thing S&W has going right now is the M&P15 TS (the pic shows a midlength, but apparently this rifle only comes in carbine gas) http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_766300_-1_757785_757784_757784_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y
They can be had for around $1300.
That being said, I would rather go for a DDM4 V5 for $100 or $200 more.
CarlosLehder
01-23-11, 12:28
Thanks for the input.
Are there any drawbacks to the lightweight version of the V5, vs the regular V5?
From what I have read the only difference is the lightweight barrel.
CarlosLehder
01-23-11, 12:38
I think the best thing S&W has going right now is the M&P15 TS (the pic shows a midlength, but apparently this rifle only comes in carbine gas) http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_766300_-1_757785_757784_757784_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y
They can be had for around $1300.
That being said, I would rather go for a DDM4 V5 for $100 or $200 more.
I found the VTAC for $1115 and the DDM4v5 for $1250, both shipped.
and an FFL fee of $35.00
Just unsure about any issues with the lightweight version vs. the non lightweight v5
I'd do that LW V5 in an instant. No regrets.
Why not build one for the money you want too spend? Have you looked into that option. Of the two you posted. DD.
CarlosLehder
01-23-11, 14:08
The upper for that same DD is around $1000 everywhere, so for the extra $250 to have the complete rifle, it doesnt make sense to me to build one.
DD, then if you really like the VTAC tube you can simply sell the DD rail and it will pay for the VTAC tube... Best of both worlds.
CarlosLehder
01-23-11, 14:12
DD, then if you really like the VTAC tube you can simply sell the DD rail and it will pay for the VTAC tube... Best of both worlds.
I actually prefer the Daniel Defense rail over the VTAC, I just like the idea that each rifle is ready to go for me. VTAC has trigger, surefire muzzle, nice stock, 1:7 barrel, and includes a surefire light. Probably wouldnt keep the light, I have a fenix that works well. After putting iron sights on the VTAC they would come out to around the same total, so that is the likely choice for me at present.
I have a M&P 15T and its a great rifle, I didn't need the 1 in 7, I almost exclusively shoot 55gr out of it. Never had a FTF or misfire I say go with which one feels better.
jklaughrey
01-23-11, 14:38
I can't believe this is even a question. Hmmm a duty ready weapon(DD) versus a range toy(SW). There really is no contest. Unless you like to shoot dirt only.
I can't believe this is even a question. Hmmm a duty ready weapon(DD) versus a range toy(SW). There really is no contest. Unless you like to shoot dirt only.
I wouldn't consider the S&W to be a "range toy" It's not like it's DPMS or anything. I'd be totally comfortable with either as a primary carbine.
jklaughrey
01-23-11, 14:51
I still wouldn't use it for duty. We use heavy loads 77SMK and 75 TAP. Why would you limit yourself if the price wasn't an issue. S&W meet minimum TDP...NO. Means range use as far as I am concerned. Now S&W LE/Fed contracted weapon, than sure they adhere to a higher QC versus Joe Spudshooter market.
CarlosLehder
01-23-11, 15:05
I can't believe this is even a question. Hmmm a duty ready weapon(DD) versus a range toy(SW). There really is no contest. Unless you like to shoot dirt only.
I'm not in law enforcement, so neither would be for duty of any sort, and would most likely only ever be used for recreational sport.
Regardless of my intended purpose I wanted something quality initially so I wouldn't feel the need to upgrade to something else down the road, and be content the first time.
jklaughrey
01-23-11, 15:06
Carlos, DD is the only choice then, based on QC and CS alone.
I still wouldn't use it for duty. We use heavy loads 77SMK and 75 TAP. Why would you limit yourself if the price wasn't an issue. S&W meet minimum TDP...NO. Means range use as far as I am concerned. Now S&W LE/Fed contracted weapon, than sure they adhere to a higher QC versus Joe Spudshooter market.
Brother, not to pick any bones with you but if you're going to bang the TDP drum you should know which parts of it are important, which parts aren't, and why and realize that it's not the end all be all of manufacturing a rifle. It's just a government specification that gets held up as a bible because no other spec really exists (and alot of it is stuck in 40+ year old manufacturing technology and materials engineering to boot). If you're going to pick a weapon pick one that meets your specifications instead of blindly trying to buy something as close to GI as possible (although this is a safe route, it requires no thinking and little knowledge on the users part). Because to be honest, the DD doesn't adhere specifically to the TDP either; the magwell is out of spec! :fie: (It's flared so it probably doesn't meet dim spec according to the TDP.) I'm no high-speed trigger puller, but I am a quality assurance data analyst at a large manufacturing plant. [/ threadjack]
As you see people speak rather passionately of DD name. It is for a reason, while they have not been producing entire rifles for as long as other AR manufactures in the game their commitment to the quality of the products they produce has stood on it's own for some time. As I began to build AR's of my own it was difficult to not appreciate the DD products fit and finish. Starting for me with their rail systems, I also use their barrels on several of my rifles as well as BCG's and various optics mounts and sling QD points. I have never been disappointed with a purchase of one of their products. I think as you will see from the majority of the responses that you will likely be very happy with one if you so choose. I would recommend the light weight profile for what you specified that you will do with it ( recreational range time/killing bad paper.) Hope this helps and congrats on the new gun :)
jklaughrey
01-23-11, 19:51
No worries, I don't use it as a bible. But yes are some mods by DD better and don't adhere to TDP...Yep. My biggest concern is barrel twist rate. Duty weapons IMO need to be built to best standard period. We use heavier gr. rounds than what a 1/9 or 1/8 are made for. That is all, no chest thumping involved. And I am a consultant as well as a LEO for a large manuf., I know what you speak of.
nobody knows
01-23-11, 20:33
I have a S&W M&P15T its a good rifle....but I'm moving up to a DDM4-3V in just a couple of week's. I have herd nothing but good about them.
GLOCKMASTER
01-23-11, 20:45
I have a S&W VTAC Rifle and I wouldn't hesitate to use it for a duty rifle. It's well built and considering the street price it comes with some nice features right out of the box. I have well over 8000 rounds through it without the first problem. It has a 1/7 twist barrel and will handle heavy loads just fine.
I did a quick review of it when it was released.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19807
CarlosLehder
01-23-11, 20:50
^your write up was the first thing I read about the vtac here, and the most informative I found on all the WWW, thanks for all the good information. I am going to mull it over for the next couple of days before I make a final decision. Thanks to all for their input thus far.
No worries, I don't use it as a bible. But yes are some mods by DD better and don't adhere to TDP...Yep. My biggest concern is barrel twist rate. Duty weapons IMO need to be built to best standard period. We use heavier gr. rounds than what a 1/9 or 1/8 are made for. That is all, no chest thumping involved. And I am a consultant as well as a LEO for a large manuf., I know what you speak of.
I understand, I was just really trying to get to the point that the M4/M16 TDP may not be the best standard because it's the best but because it's the the only published standard and people need to be informed enough to know that.
"Quality is defined as conformance to requirements, not as 'goodness' or 'elegance'."
get the Daniel defense, its a tank, i ran mine into the ground and never had one malfunction.
jklaughrey
01-23-11, 21:29
Yes, in that configuration, neither would I have an issue. You must have missed all of my posts in this thread. I shoot heavy loads just fine as well in a 1/7. But your regular off the rack S&W isn't using that twist rate. It is only the vtac with a 1/7 for this market correct. The rest being sold non LE are 1/8 and 1/9 correct?
I repeat though if I based a decision solely on two equal rifles DD would win due to QC and CS.
The barrel and gas system from the V5-LW is just amazing - accurate, light, smooth. I really wanted the VTAC/TRX 11" rail, so I changed that, but the Lite rail with that would be money.
Have you considered going to G&R and getting a complete S&W (or similar) Lower (with whatever parts changes you want), and having Grant build you a DD/VTAC upper?
CarlosLehder
01-24-11, 09:56
The barrel and gas system from the V5-LW is just amazing - accurate, light, smooth. I really wanted the VTAC/TRX 11" rail, so I changed that, but the Lite rail with that would be money.
Have you considered going to G&R and getting a complete S&W (or similar) Lower (with whatever parts changes you want), and having Grant build you a DD/VTAC upper?
I looked around on there, as well as, BCM's site, but for a similar configuration, the price is even higher. $944 for a BCM upper (non chf barrel) and lower, without a grip or sights.
Yes I have, the dd v3, and v5s are midlengths. I like the 12" rail more than the 7 or 9" rail on tthe ddm4 v3.
I just thought the vtac for $1100 seemed like a good deal for what's included out of the box, same for the Daniel defense. Only addition that I would do to either is an optic of some sort
Have you considered a BCM midlength with a 12" rail upper, then buying the blemished BCM lower? I got my DD from the smartgunner deal and it is a 12" railed middy, but DD may be able to custom build one for you if you ask too.
So far I'm really liking my DD/Vickers rifle. For sure a well put together rifle7
CarlosLehder
01-24-11, 10:42
Have you considered a BCM midlength with a 12" rail upper, then buying the blemished BCM lower? I got my DD from the smartgunner deal and it is a 12" railed middy, but DD may be able to custom build one for you if you ask too.
I saw their blemed lowers, how blemished are they? I would prefer I think to spend the extra money for one with no imperfections. It seems their uppers with rails are way higher than purchasing the rail and upper separately. Must be an assembly charge or something.
dennisuello
01-24-11, 10:57
I saw their blemed lowers, how blemished are they? I would prefer I think to spend the extra money for one with no imperfections. It seems their uppers with rails are way higher than purchasing the rail and upper separately. Must be an assembly charge or something.
One or two scratches, that's about it. Nothing that messes with function. You run your rifle hard for an hour and you're going to end up with blems of your own in no time, might as well start with a blem lower and save $$$.
I saw their blemed lowers, how blemished are they? I would prefer I think to spend the extra money for one with no imperfections. It seems their uppers with rails are way higher than purchasing the rail and upper separately. Must be an assembly charge or something.
It took my about 20 mins to find the scratch on mine. It was so small it was rediculous. The DO NOT effect function what so ever, they are purely cosmetic. If you ever plan on using the rifle, it will get more scratches on it. For $90 less, it is a great deal. I reccomend getting them through G&R tactical here (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=LWR-BCM) (select blemished option) as Grant offers a little more customization options for the base price as BCM. Whatever upper you decide to get, this is the best value (very high quality) complete lower on the market IMO. I would still contact DD and ask about a custom upper.
CarlosLehder
01-24-11, 12:49
For $954 after ffl, I can get a blem bcm lower, MOE stock, and grip, and bcm mid-length upper, and a rear sight. Price direct from BCM is $948 for the same thing. That is everything but a hand guard.
Does anyone know of a midlength handguard, similar to the DD omega 12", for use with standard sight?
Before purchasing a handguard it is around a $335 price difference between the ddm4 v5 and the bcm without a hand guard.
For $954 after ffl, I can get a blem bcm lower, MOE stock, and grip, and bcm mid-length upper, and a rear sight. Price direct from BCM is $948 for the same thing. That is everything but a hand guard.
Does anyone know of a midlength handguard, similar to the DD omega 12", for use with standard sight?
Before purchasing a handguard it is around a $335 price difference between the ddm4 v5 and the bcm without a hand guard.
If you want the fixed front sight post, then you will be looking at this (http://www.smartgunner.com/danieldefensear15literail120fspmmidlength.aspx) for a 12" rail on mid-length system. A picture illustrating the rail mounted (one of stick's photos obviously):
http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/AR15%20Carbines/IMG_7774%20Stick.jpg
If you get a low profile gas block, then your options open up quite a bit.
CarlosLehder
01-24-11, 13:58
I would prefer a low profile gas block instead of the traditional front sight/block, but that isnt an option when ordering the upper, and I wouldnt want to damage anything trying to to it myself. I will look into it further, as I would prefer to go in that direction.
If you are dead set on a quad-rail handguard, then there are cheaper options from BCM if you cant swing DD, LaRue, etc:
Midwest Industries T-12: $649 (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-16-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-MI-p/bcm-urg-mid-16%20mit12%20fde.htm)
YHM 12": $629 (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-16-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-YHM-p/bcm-urg-mid-16%20yhm12.htm)
Many people like the tube handguards with rail sections that you can put wherever you want. Therefore there are only rails where you need them and smooth everywhere else. If you can consider these than also check out:
VTAC TRX 13": $639 (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-16-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-VTAC-p/bcm-urg-mid-16%20vtrx13.htm) (I would reccomend this one out of all options listed so far)
Midwest Industries SS-12: $649 (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-16-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-MI-p/bcm-urg-mid-16%20mi%20ss12.htm)
Just a few more options to consider. Again the stripped BCM upper w/ DD FSPM 12 Lite rail is a very nice combo as well.
CarlosLehder
01-24-11, 19:41
Thanks for the suggestions. After spending several additional hours browsing, I have come up with a BCM configuration. 16" mid length upper, blemished lower, moe stock, bc bcg/ charge handle, fixed rear sight, and magpul moe handguard, which comes out to around $970 after FFL fees.
Now I must decide if the few extra $100 is worth the DD rail, foregrip, barrel and front sight. I feel that it may be.
Thanks to all for the information
If you get the BCM, get the Gunfighter charging handle instead of a standard one. The Mod 4 is medium size, seems to be best all around, I have 2.
For a complete rifle, the DD with LW barrel would be killer. I just did a build with a DD LW 14.5" barrel and the 12 FSPM rail (almost exactly like the one with the cutout for the sight post posted earlier). It is high quality and handles really well.
GLOCKMASTER
01-24-11, 19:53
Thanks for the suggestions. After spending several additional hours browsing, I have come up with a BCM configuration. 16" mid length upper, blemished lower, moe stock, bc bcg/ charge handle, fixed rear sight, and magpul moe handguard, which comes out to around $970 after FFL fees.
Now I must decide if the few extra $100 is worth the DD rail, foregrip, barrel and front sight. I feel that it may be.
Thanks to all for the information
You made a very good choice. I have a BCM 14.5" middy upper and it is my favorite. I also have several others that I know personally that have the BCM 16" middy setup and they really like it. BCM builds some of the best rifles in the industry with the best customer service to back it up.
I can't believe you guys would suggest something that the O.P. wasn't considering...
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=MID-750-C
It stole my heart. :D
CarlosLehder
01-25-11, 12:47
What about this combination?
http://www.botachtactical.com/lmtco14uprea.html
with
http://riflegear.com/showproduct.aspx?ProductID=574&SEName=lmt-defender-lower-with-collapsing-stock-and-standard-trigger
The upper from botach seems pretty cheap considering it is complete with rail and rear sight.
Thanks
* nevermind, just noticed it has full auto bcg
A couple things. Botach is a rip off and is shady as hell. There has been multiple complaints on just about every board about poor customer service, etc. Stay away from Botach.
Second, a full auto BCG is NOT illegal. In fact, most quality BCG are "full-auto/M16". This has nothing to do with actually allowing the weapon to function as an automatic weapon, it is just a more sturdy BCG so that it can handle the abuse FROM an fully-automatic weapon.
Honestly, just go with the combo you cited before and call it a day. 16" middy upper from BCM (no handguards), with MOE midlength handguard, and the BCM blemished lower from G&R tactical.
CarlosLehder
01-29-11, 21:28
I ended up ordering a BCM lower on Friday from G and R, I will be going with a BCM upper as well when the time comes. I have to have matching manufacturers.
I was looking for fixed back up sights, and had narrowed it down to Daniel Defense rear fixed, or the LMT rear fixed, but just saw Midwest Industries fixed rear sight for $49 shipped, and was wondering if anyone has had any experience with this sight?
I have no plans to purchase a optic, so was looking for a iron sight that would be for primary use.
Many Thanks
I ended up ordering a BCM lower on Friday from G and R, I will be going with a BCM upper as well when the time comes. I have to have matching manufacturers.
I was looking for fixed back up sights, and had narrowed it down to Daniel Defense rear fixed, or the LMT rear fixed, but just saw Midwest Industries fixed rear sight for $49 shipped, and was wondering if anyone has had any experience with this sight?
I have no plans to purchase a optic, so was looking for a iron sight that would be for primary use.
Many Thanks
Glad to hear it, I don't think you'll be disappointed.
http://www.slip2000.com/art-swat2.html
Helped reassure me that I purchased a quality AR, for sure.
For your usage,
http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=XTSSIGFRSR0BT00&name=Troy+Ind.+Fixed+Rear+Battle+Sight&groupid=48
might not be a bad consideration.
BlackWidow
01-30-11, 10:21
DDM4 all the way
I am sure you will be happy with anything by BCM. I have had nothing but excellent experience with all of their products! Rails are nice but also just added money and weight to the gun ( you can add rail sections to your MOE handguards also.)
I have used the DD fixed rear (they are great,) but not the LMT or MI. I have also used the Troy fixed rear and they are also top notch. I use the Troy's for most of my BUIS folders and have never had them fail me when I needed them.
CarlosLehder
02-21-11, 19:07
Here is what I ended up with:
BCM 16" Mid Length, BCM Blem Lower, BCM BCG, BCM/VLTOR Mod 4 charging handle, Magpul MOE handguard, Magpul MOE stock, Ergo Grip, Daniel Defense A1.5 fixed rear sight, and Tangodown stubby vertical foregrip.
I had the Magpul RVG initially, but changed it out for the Tangodown stubby earlier today. I prefer it quite a bit more. I also received Tangodown battle grip today, unsure if I will replace the ergo grip yet.
***Also does anyone know which direction the Tangodown VFG is supposed to be mounted? It is not entirely round, is more the shape of a teardrop. The side with the Tangodown branding is the rounder side, and is currently facing the left. I thought it best that way initially but now I am not sure if it is supposed to go the opposite direction. I didn't want to switch around if its correct, as it was rather difficult to place.
Many Thanks
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l57/Davinci312/022111/IMG_4816.jpg
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l57/Davinci312/022111/IMG_4817.jpg
Fried Chicken Blowout
02-21-11, 19:41
Nice setup. Good choice on the rear sight.
Scotter260
02-21-11, 20:07
That looks like a great choice - quality in a simple and practical package.
How far off were you from your $1,200 target by "building"??
CarlosLehder
02-22-11, 18:23
That looks like a great choice - quality in a simple and practical package.
How far off were you from your $1,200 target by "building"??
I ended up spending $1128.99 on the AR and its parts.
Also bought a hard case for $25, and 1,000 5.56 for $300, which is basically a cost of the gun. I still want a rail, so if I was to do it over again, I would have just spent the extra money initially to get the daniel defense with the rail I already liked. For another $100 you cant get much of a rail.
I dont regret the purchase though, and am looking forward to when I have time to take it out and shoot.
***I also found out which way the stubby grip is supposed to be mounted. The pointier, tear-drop side, is supposed to go into the palm, or so it was designed that way.
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