View Full Version : Honest truth about ss barrels?
Hey guys. How long will new ss barrels last with their accuracy, say around 10k rounds with no significant accuracy loss?
Thanks guys!
It really depends on things like operating temp/enviroment & usage, fire rate, ammo etc.
If you are buying a SS barrel, I doubt you are doing select fire mag dumps with c-mags while suppressed. If you are, I would go with a chrome lined barrel. ;)
I don't think 10k isn't unrealistic from a high quality SS barrel from Noveske or the like. John Noveske says his polygonal rifiling will have a predictable end of service life. Groups will gradually get bigger before tumbling bullets.
Some of the high quality chrome lined barrels are capable of 1.5 moa accuracy with good ammo.
A Noveske with good ammo is capable of sub moa accuracy.
When selecting a barrel, you also need to factor in what kind of ammo you're going to be shooting. Having a sub moa SS barrel and all the tight group gizmos you can find, won't do you a bit of good shooting Wolf.
If you want a high level of accuracy, you're going to pay for it, both in equipment and ammunition.
Ah thank you! look like ill be looking at the centurion barrels then!!
It’s interesting to note that Rogers witnessed someone use a Noveske Rifleworks 10.5-inch CQB barrel/KFH combo in three classes over a three month period. Over the three-course training package, the student fired 7,730 rounds of 5.56×45mm ammo comprised of NATO M855 (62-grainer), Black Hills 77-grain MK262 MOD 1, Hornady 75-grain TAP rounds, and commercial 55-grain ball, and ended up firing over 10,000 rounds total without any "discernable" loss in accuracy. That’s pretty good. Rogers also mentioned that a second shooter put over 4,000 rounds through his CQB barrel over a two-week period without any noticeable accuracy degredation.
http://www.defensereview.com/noveske-rifleworks-weapons-packages-cqb-barrel-meets-the-krink/
10,000 rounds, maybe more.
Centurion makes good barrels. Some people think they're as good as Noveske.
goneballistic
01-27-11, 14:49
really depends on the caliber you pick. we are assuming you are talking 5.56/.223 in which case you are probably good for 5k-10K rounds depending on how hard you push them, how hot you shoot the barrel etc.
if we're talking a .243 you may get 2K out of it but .243s will erode the throat at 1500 or so.
a SS will give you a longer wear life than normal steel I think but it's highly dependent on the caliber you pick, how fast you push that caliber, how you care for the barrel (keeping it cool or shooting it to very high heat often_) cleaning regimen etc.
a SS will give you a longer wear life than normal steel I think but it's highly dependent on the caliber you pick, how fast you push that caliber, how you care for the barrel (keeping it cool or shooting it to very high heat often_) cleaning regimen etc.
Assuming using the rifle as a precision rifle 80% of the time plus a little rapid fire (one or two carbine courses) would you say the 10,000 round estimate would work.
Also, what kind of cleaning regimen would prolong barrel life? I can see this going both ways as too much cleaning would erode the barrel as would allowing it to build up too much fouling :confused:
A good coated one piece rod, a bore guide is a must. Absolutely no stainless steel brushes in a stainless barrel.
The trick with cleaning is to let your solvents do the work. The mechanical action of cleaning can damage your barrel. Let the chemicals do the work. Use good stuff. KG, Slip etc.
InfiniteGrim
01-29-11, 14:40
I would say 10,000 plus easy.
this is just my opinion, but i think most people getting stainless barrels would be better served with a good quality CMV barrel. i think the vast majority of stainless-barreled guns are not used for anything close to true precision work, and their owners aren't even capable of putting the rifle to precision use- either because they simply aren't going to have any training interest, they don't actually even really shoot much, or simply aren't capable of shooting better than about 1.5MOA even on a good day, regardless of barrel.
and since 1.5MOA is pretty common for good quality CMV barrels these days, and since 1.5MOA is plenty precise enough for basically any combat scenario out to 600m+, and since CMV barrels can take SO much more abuse than stainless barrels, can handle being shot fast and hot without the rapid degradation of hot stainless barrels, i really think the vast majority of people asking this question need to fully assess their wants and needs.
if you want a combat gun and combat accuracy, stainless is a waste. if the difference between .75 and 1.5 MOA should happen to actually make a real difference to you, then stainless is appropriate. but be honest with yourself (ambiguous).
InfiniteGrim
01-29-11, 15:28
this is just my opinion, but i think most people getting stainless barrels would be better served with a good quality CMV barrel. i think the vast majority of stainless-barreled guns are not used for anything close to true precision work, and their owners aren't even capable of putting the rifle to precision use- either because they simply aren't going to have any training interest, they don't actually even really shoot much, or simply aren't capable of shooting better than about 1.5MOA even on a good day, regardless of barrel.
and since 1.5MOA is pretty common for good quality CMV barrels these days, and since 1.5MOA is plenty precise enough for basically any combat scenario out to 600m+, and since CMV barrels can take SO much more abuse than stainless barrels, can handle being shot fast and hot without the rapid degradation of hot stainless barrels, i really think the vast majority of people asking this question need to fully assess their wants and needs.
if you want a combat gun and combat accuracy, stainless is a waste. if the difference between .75 and 1.5 MOA should happen to actually make a real difference to you, then stainless is appropriate. but be honest with yourself (ambiguous).
I would only want a SS barrel for a precision rifle. According to the guys at ADCO a good SS barrel will last as long as a CMV barrel, but I honestly do not believe this.
Alaskapopo
01-29-11, 16:29
Stainless barrels are must better for uses where you need to have extreme accuracy. (Sub MOA) Basically if you want a competition rifle for three gun or a precision rifle go stainless. If you want a work gun (ie self defense gun) go chrome lined. I also have an issue with what bkb0000 said about people being able to shoot sub moa. Frankly its easy to shoot good groups with an accurate AR from the bench. Beginners have no issue shooting sub moa based on my experience of letting new shooters shoot some of my guns at the range. (from the bench)
Pat
Alaskapopo
01-29-11, 16:30
Stainless barrels are must better for uses where you need to have extreme accuracy. (Sub MOA) Basically if you want a competition rifle for three gun or a precision rifle go stainless. If you want a work gun (ie self defense gun) go chrome lined. I also have an issue with what bkb0000 said about people being able to shoot sub moa. Frankly its easy to shoot good groups with an accurate AR from the bench. Beginners have no issue shooting sub moa based on my experience of letting new shooters shoot some of my guns at the range. (from the bench) Stainless and Chrome lined barrel both have their place. It would be foolish to build a precision rifle build up with a chrome lined barrel.
Pat
Alpha Sierra
01-29-11, 18:43
A button rifled stainless barrel cannot hold 1 MOA at 600 yards much past 4000 rounds. A cut rifled barrel like a Krieger will do about 6000 before it won't perform to that standard.
There is an immense body of knowledge regarding precision stainless barrels for ARs in NRA Highpower Rifle circles.
I don't know where you guys are getting your info about 10K rounds but I am here to tell you from first hand experience that such a claim is pure bullshit.
In fact, I am the first to define a certain level of accuracy, which leads me to believe none of you know what you are talking about. You cannot state a barrel's lifespan without first defining a measurable standard to say that it is done........:rolleyes:
So 10,000 rounds is bullshit and you haven't established the standard at which that is bullshit.
I'll take John Noveske's own words and Pat Roger's observations and happily run with it.
I'm sure Kreiger makes a very accurate, great barrel. Not wanting to haul a 26" barrel through a training class, or really shoot anywhere but a bench, I'll take a Noveske, and have my cake and eat it too.
So 10,000 rounds is bullshit and you haven't established the standard at which that is bullshit.
I'll take John Noveske's own words and Pat Roger's observations and happily run with it.
I'm sure Kreiger makes a very accurate, great barrel. Not wanting to haul a 26" barrel through a training class, or really shoot anywhere but a bench, I'll take a Noveske, and have my cake and eat it too.
I'd be hesitant to say that any SS barrel can hold 1 MOA at 600 consistently after 10K rounds, no matter who makes it or how well it's made.
Accuracy at distance will degrade faster than you could notice at 100 yards, and a barrel that won't hold the 10-ring at 600 will probably still shoot fine at <200 yards for much longer.
I'm sure if you called Pac-Nor and asked, they'd tell you that their barrels will see their best accuracy below 5-6,000 rounds.
Alpha Sierra
01-30-11, 08:57
So 10,000 rounds is bullshit and you haven't established the standard at which that is bullshit.
I'll take John Noveske's own words and Pat Roger's observations and happily run with it.
I'm sure Kreiger makes a very accurate, great barrel. Not wanting to haul a 26" barrel through a training class, or really shoot anywhere but a bench, I'll take a Noveske, and have my cake and eat it too.
That's right. You have zero first hand knowledge of this topic, can't articulate what level of accuracy is being "achieved" at 10K rounds, and just hang on to other people's words.
I, OTOH, have burned through several barrels in a decade of highpower competition and I *know*, without having to be told, just how long a Krieger SS cut rifled and Wilson and Pac-Nor SS button rifled barrels will hold 1 MOA when chambered in 223 Rem, 260 Rem, and 308 Win.
The fact that you dismiss Krieger as someone making only long bench shooting barrels only further shows your ignorance. BTW, Noveske barrels, last I heard, were made by Pac-Nor. I've had one on my NM AR and know plenty of people with them too. They def do not last 10K rounds with the level of precision NRA competitors demand.
Since this is a precision rifle forum, dirt shooting accuracy does not count and that is all you're going to get with ANY barrel, from ANY maker, after the throat is toast with 10K rounds through it.
BTW, Noveske barrels, last I heard, were made by Pac-Nor. I've had one on my NM AR and know plenty of people with them too. They def do not last 10K rounds with the level of precision NRA competitors demand.
noveske stainless barrels are made AT pac-nor on noveske's blanks, noveske's tooling, and by noveske's people.
FWIW the lack of an accuracy standard renders any observation pretty much void. First of all what's the maximum range students engage targets at one of these training events? Unless you are getting outside of 300 meters, you aren't going to see a whole lot of difference accuracy wise. I've personally shot MOA at 300 meters with an M16A2 and M855 ammunition. I kept hitting the 3" spotter during a slow fire course so I know it can be done.
Kreiger makes barrels shorter than 26". The fact that they aren't well know by the 'tactical' crowd is they don't market to that demographic.
So 10,000 rounds is bullshit and you haven't established the standard at which that is bullshit.
I'll take John Noveske's own words and Pat Roger's observations and happily run with it.
I'm sure Kreiger makes a very accurate, great barrel. Not wanting to haul a 26" barrel through a training class, or really shoot anywhere but a bench, I'll take a Noveske, and have my cake and eat it too.
bp7178 didn't post this, but I've included it because it has bearing on the subject. The statement that there was no 'discernable' or 'noticeable accuracy degredation' is meaningless unless the accuracy standard was known to begin with. Pretty much all the carbine courses I'm aware of are heavily weighted to the CQB side. An issue M4 with M855 can produce MOA groups in a CQB setting, and I've seen them hold MOA out to 300 meters.
It’s interesting to note that Rogers witnessed someone use a Noveske Rifleworks 10.5-inch CQB barrel/KFH combo in three classes over a three month period. Over the three-course training package, the student fired 7,730 rounds of 5.56×45mm ammo comprised of NATO M855 (62-grainer), Black Hills 77-grain MK262 MOD 1, Hornady 75-grain TAP rounds, and commercial 55-grain ball, and ended up firing over 10,000 rounds total without any "discernable" loss in accuracy. That’s pretty good. Rogers also mentioned that a second shooter put over 4,000 rounds through his CQB barrel over a two-week period without any noticeable accuracy degredation.
Now let's take a look at the 10k round claim. Accuracy wise, no one knows more about barrel life than high power and long range shooters. Our scores live and die on the health of our barrels, and if you don't know when your barrel is toast, you're in for a nasty surprise. Most HP shooters know that around 5k is about the time that barrels stop shooting on call at 600 yards. Some shooters sell the barrel, and some use it for the reduced course out to 300 yards because the barrel will still hold sub MOA at that distance. I know an M-1A shooter that had 8,500 rounds through his rifle because he loads down, and didn't burn out the throat. I also know of shooters that didn't get 4k out of a Kreiger because that's just how that barrel shot. Outside of the SDM, the carbine crowd just doesn't care about this kind of accuracy. The fact that a barrel can be absolutely worthless at 600 yards, but be a tack driver at 100 yards makes this even more difficult to quantify. Given that this is the precision semi auto forum, and not the general AR forum, accuracy needs to be defined not guessed at with a general statement.
Alaskapopo
01-30-11, 13:09
Just curious how does a barrel hold sub moa out to 200 then go to crap past that. Its not making sense to me.
Pat
I don't where you get to 200m distance from, but I have seen barrels that won't shoot on call at 600 hold sub MOA at 300. It has to do with throat erosion and how the projectile enters the rifling.
Just curious how does a barrel hold sub moa out to 200 then go to crap past that. Its not making sense to me.
Pat
Alaskapopo
01-30-11, 13:36
I don't where you get to 200m distance from, but I have seen barrels that won't shoot on call at 600 hold sub MOA at 300. It has to do with throat erosion and how the projectile enters the rifling.
Sorry I misquoted you. 300 yards then. I am confused I thought a projectile was either stable or it was not. Not arguing just don't understand it.
Pat
Alpha Sierra
01-30-11, 16:10
noveske stainless barrels are made AT pac-nor on noveske's blanks, noveske's tooling, and by noveske's people.
BFD. They are still stainless steel and regardless of the exact alloy, they are NOT going to keep MOA accuracy for 10,000 rounds.
Period. End of story.
Alpha Sierra
01-30-11, 16:15
Sorry I misquoted you. 300 yards then. I am confused I thought a projectile was either stable or it was not. Not arguing just don't understand it.
Pat
The instability Sgt Gold is discussing is a well known fact among target shooters.
You are mixing up the inherent stability imparted by the rifling, which does not change over the life of the barrel with the in flight instability generated by surface turbulence and dynamic imbalance as a result of jacket damage caused by a rough throat.
The older the barrel, the rougher the throat becomes due to flame erosion, and the more damage the bullet jacket suffers. That damage creates inaccuracy in two ways. First, the rougher jacket surface creates turbulent flow around the bullet and second, the damage jacket is no longer as dynamically balanced (you have a rapidly rotating mass, remember) as an intact jacket. Those two conditions create deviations from the perfect flight path in a diverging cone, which means that the area covered by the cone of divergence becomes greater the farther away you go from the muzzle.
That's how a rifle that can only hold say, 2 MOA at 600 yards can probably still shoot slight sub MOA at 200 or 300.
Alaskapopo
01-30-11, 16:20
The instability Sgt Gold is discussing is a well known fact among target shooters.
You are mixing up the inherent stability imparted by the rifling, which does not change over the life of the barrel with the in flight instability generated by surface turbulence and dynamic imbalance as a result of jacket damage caused by a rough throat.
The older the barrel, the rougher the throat becomes due to flame erosion, and the more damage the bullet jacket suffers. That damage creates inaccuracy in two ways. First, the rougher jacket surface creates turbulent flow around the bullet and second, the damage jacket is no longer as dynamically balanced (you have a rapidly rotating mass, remember) as an intact jacket. Those two conditions create deviations from the perfect flight path in a diverging cone, which means that the area covered by the cone of divergence becomes greater the farther away you go from the muzzle.
That's how a rifle that can only hold say, 2 MOA at 600 yards can probably still shoot slight sub MOA at 200 or 300.
Thanks for explaining it. So as the bullet slows down the marks on the bullet cause it to be less stable and lose its accuracy. Do I have it right?
Pat
Alpha Sierra
01-30-11, 16:22
So as the bullet slows down the marks on the bullet cause it to be less stable and lose its accuracy. Do I have it right?
Pat
Correct. The bullet loses stability in flight much sooner than a bullet fired through a smooth, clean throat of the correct length.
I've personally shot MOA at 300 meters with an M16A2 and M855 ammunition . . .
An issue M4 with M855 . . . I've seen them hold MOA out to 300 meters.
Even when fired from bolt-actioned, machine-rested test barrels at the Lake City Army Ammunition Plant, M855 isn’t capable of producing anything near MOA accuracy; so it certainly isn’t capable of producing MOA accuracy from chrome-lined, government profiled barrels fired on semi-automatic from an M16A2 or M4.
Accuracy Evaluation of Four M855 Loads
I conducted an accuracy (technically, precision) evaluation of four different M855 loads that are currently commercially available, following my usual protocols. This accuracy evaluation used statistically significant shot-group sizes and every single shot in a fired group was included in the measurements. There was absolutely no use of any Group Reduction Techniques (e.g. fliers, target movement, Butterfly Shots). The shooting set-up will be described in detail below. As many of the significant variables as was practicable were controlled for. Pictures of the fired shot-groups will be posted for documentation.
All shooting was conducted from a concrete bench-rest from a distance of 100 yards (confirmed with a laser rangefinder.) The barrel used in the evaluation was free-floated. The free-float handguards of the rifle rested in a Sinclair Windage Benchrest, while the stock of the rifle rested in a Protektor bunny-ear rear bag. Sighting was accomplished via a Leupold VARI-X III set at 25X magnification and adjusted to be parallax-free at 100 yards. A mirage shade was attached to the objective-bell of the scope. Wind conditions on the shooting range were continuously monitored using a Wind Probe. The set-up was very similar to that pictured below.
http://www.box.net/shared/static/xo4duzdgtp.jpg
http://www.box.net/shared/static/lkg47ptc04.jpg
The test vehicle for this evaluation was a 16” Colt HBAR with chrome lining, a NATO chamber and a 1:9” twist. This is the barrel found on the Colt 6721 carbine. This barrel was free-floated with a 10” LaRue free-float handguard. I specifically choose to evaluate the accuracy this ammunition using an AR-15 with a chrome-lined, NATO chambered barrel, as this is the type of barrel that is most commonly used to fire this type of ammunition.
http://www.box.net/shared/static/9jkbf66dd6.jpg
http://www.box.net/shared/static/3bnl8bdr23.jpg
The 16” Colt HBAR is one of the most accurate “off the shelf” chrome-lined, NATO chambered AR-15 barrels that I’ve evaluated. Three 10-shot groups fired from this barrel from a distance of 100 yards using match-grade hand-loads topped with Sierra 52 grain MatchKings had extreme spreads of:
0.85”
1.14”
0.88”
for a 10-shot group average extreme spread of 0.96”. The mean radius for these three 10-shot groups was 0.32”.
Three 10-shot groups of each M855 load were fired in a row from a distance of 100 yards with the results shown in the table below.
http://www.box.net/shared/static/vukkp8mmds.jpg
….
I'll take John Noveske's own words and Pat Roger's observations and happily runwith it.
I'm sure Kreiger makes a very accurate, great barrel. Not wanting to haul a 26" barrel through a training class, or really shoot anywhere but a bench, I'll take a Noveske, and have my cake and eat it too.
Where has Noveske ever stated that his barrels would hold peak accuracy for 10,000 rounds? Here is a link to a thread on Sniper's Hide which links to a Q&A with Noveske. The thread is a good read on barrel quality. Excerpt below:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1007086
Noveske: All the stainless barrels have…that button that we designed, I call "Improved Polygonal". The polygonal that I used in the past and that some other people are using has one shortcoming, which is an unpredictable end-of-service life. It goes from shooting great to tumbling bullets. Our barrel now gives you a predictable end-of-service life. As it's shooting out, it's going to open up in group before the bullets tumble.
Crane: And how many rounds are you gonna' get out of that?
Noveske: I don't know. I know of barrels that are over 15,000 rounds still in service. So, I don't know how long they'll go, but I know that they're going quite a ways.
If you take a manufacturer's statement that he "knows" of some of his button rifled barrels shooting 15k rounds "still in service" as any kind of statement that any given barrel he makes will still shoot its peak accuracy at that round count, then I have several bridges for sale that may be of interest. Note that he indicates that a barrel's end of service life is bullet tumbling, not accuracy degradation.
I don't want to get caught in a flame war, but threads like this are detrimental to the long term viability of this forum as a place for people to come to get accurate advice. Molon can't be expected to debunk every bogus accuracy thread on the internet, though he does it very tactfully.
Its not just this thread either. I understand that this forum caters to the "tactical" crowd, but too many people shooting carbine classes with off the shelf "tactical" ARs designed for portability and "combat" accuracy make outlandish accuracy claims about their rifle with factory ammo combo. When competition shooters who only shoot hand loaded match ammo from custom built uppers with premium target barrels chime in with experience they get shouted down? Its the old story of people defending the gun they spent $$$ on.
Unless the person is posting pics of groups, or provides some credentials, you should not believe a word that they say about their rifle/barrel/ammo combo's accuracy, or apparently barrel life. Even then you should be skeptical. Sad but true.
Its not just this thread either. I understand that this forum caters to the "tactical" crowd, but too many people shooting carbine classes with off the shelf "tactical" ARs designed for portability and "combat" accuracy make outlandish accuracy claims about their rifle with factory ammo combo. When competition shooters who only shoot hand loaded match ammo from custom built uppers with premium target barrels chime in with experience they get shouted down? Its the old story of people defending the gun they spent $$$ on.
Unless the person is posting pics of groups, or provides some credentials, you should not believe a word that they say about their rifle/barrel/ammo combo's accuracy, or apparently barrel life. Even then you should be skeptical. Sad but true.
Amen, it's why I stayed away from this thread as long as I have:)
Where has Noveske ever stated that his barrels would hold peak accuracy for 10,000 rounds?
Never did, and I didn't claim a "peak accuracy" to 10,000 rounds. The original poster came up with the first mention of a 10k life.
Its not just this thread either. I understand that this forum caters to the "tactical" crowd, but too many people shooting carbine classes with off the shelf "tactical" ARs designed for portability and "combat" accuracy make outlandish accuracy claims about their rifle with factory ammo combo. When competition shooters who only shoot hand loaded match ammo from custom built uppers with premium target barrels chime in with experience they get shouted down? Its the old story of people defending the gun they spent $$$ on.
This whole f'n thread is a flame war between tactical class and target/precision class shooters, and their expectation of their equipment.
For MY uses, I fully expect a 10,000 life from my Noveske barrel. I would tell someone on a tactical (ish) forum the same.
This isn't a high power or a benchrest forum. Those shooters will have a MUCH different expectation from their equipment. If this question was asked on sniper hide or brian enos, of course its going to be a different number.
The target audience here isn't high power, benchrest or the like.
girls... girls! calm down... :rolleyes:
spring is just around the corner and we'll all be able to get out and shoot a lot more so just hang in there, ok?.. :p
my constructive input into this thread is that I had a 1/8 Douglass SS match grade barrel on my match service rifle with about 2800 rounds on it before I began to suspect it was opening up with the 69 and 77 gr SMK's I handloaded.
it's possible that it was me that was losing my touch but since this was at the "bargain" end of matchgrade SS barrel spectrum, I didn't feel like it owed me anything more. at that point, I sold it for a song to a kid that was just getting into highpower and I'm sure it served his needs well for the next 2-3000 rds but I can't give any further input than that so take it for what that's worth...
constructor
02-01-11, 00:56
10,000 rounds, maybe more.
Centurion makes good barrels. Some people think they're as good as Noveske.
Kreiger Criterion are button rifled barrels, Krieger are cut rifled but yes both seem to be as accurate as the Noveske/PacNor barrels and the stainless is harder, the Criterion are 410 stainless.
sniperfrog
02-01-11, 12:13
I think he was talking about Centurion Arms, not Criterion. Centurion uses Douglas SS blanks and FN hammer forged in their CL barrels.
BaileyMoto
02-01-11, 14:49
Stainless in my mk12 (less than 1" groups at 200 yards) and Chrome in my m4ergy.
I had a Douglas barrel in the weapon below.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/Courses/Kevwmiddy.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/Army%20stuff/RAVnStuff012.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/Courses/RVSIII.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/Army%20stuff/noelcan.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/Iraq/CarbinePerfectionII001.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/Magpul%20PMAG%20test/Iraq-Range26May023.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/Magpul%20PMAG%20test/Iraq-Range26May039.jpg
It lasted about 18k before the groups really opened up, it was not babied whatsoever, however it did not do mag dumps of auto fire other than 2 times to verify reliability with Mk262.
It went to Afghan and Iraq, as well as classes and some Army stuff
Alpha Sierra
02-02-11, 10:07
Never did, and I didn't claim a "peak accuracy" to 10,000 rounds. The original poster came up with the first mention of a 10k life.
This whole f'n thread is a flame war between tactical class and target/precision class shooters, and their expectation of their equipment.
For MY uses, I fully expect a 10,000 life from my Noveske barrel. I would tell someone on a tactical (ish) forum the same.
This isn't a high power or a benchrest forum. Those shooters will have a MUCH different expectation from their equipment. If this question was asked on sniper hide or brian enos, of course its going to be a different number.
The target audience here isn't high power, benchrest or the like.
When the question is posted on a subforum dedicated to PRECISION rifles, the accuracy standard is assumed to be that of a high level of PRECISION.
So yes, the standards of accuracy for highpower competition are highly appropriate to this discussion.
Perhaps you can't shoot that well? Could that be the reason for your annoyance with this thread?
The older the barrel, the rougher the throat becomes due to flame erosion, and the more damage the bullet jacket suffers. That damage creates inaccuracy in two ways.
How about some sort of flash hider, or compensator? Wouldn't that reduce the amount of flame erosion of the throat, but erode the comp instead?
If this is an insanely stupid idea, let me know ;-)
How about some sort of flash hider, or compensator? Wouldn't that reduce the amount of flame erosion of the throat, but erode the comp instead?
If this is an insanely stupid idea, let me know ;-)
You're thinking about muzzle erosion, and no.
Right, thanks for clarifying that!
I'll be the first one to agree that M855 is not capable of dependably repeatable MOA accuracy. The non concentric nature of the steel penetrator makes it impossible to rely on lot to lot accuracy the way I do with match grade ammunition. The fact is I have done this twice. Once at the NYARNG TAG match in 2007, and again at the MAC 1 match in 2008. The accuracy I obtained I also saw out of other rifles at these same matches, which leads me to believe that the particular lot of ammo we were using was especially concentric. I also see many of the same shooters at these matches, and I know many of them hand pick their rifles. Think of this as a less scientific version of the way FN selects chrome lined sniper rifle barrels.
Even when fired from bolt-actioned, machine-rested test barrels at the Lake City Army Ammunition Plant, M855 isn’t capable of producing anything near MOA accuracy; so it certainly isn’t capable of producing MOA accuracy from chrome-lined, government profiled barrels fired on semi-automatic from an M16A2 or M4.
I've personally shot MOA at 300 meters with an M16A2 and M855 ammunition . . .
An issue M4 with M855 . . . I've seen them hold MOA out to 300 meters.
Even when fired from bolt-actioned, machine-rested test barrels at the Lake City Army Ammunition Plant, M855 isn’t capable of producing anything near MOA accuracy; so it certainly isn’t capable of producing MOA accuracy from chrome-lined, government profiled barrels fired on semi-automatic from an M16A2 or M4.
http://www.box.net/shared/static/vukkp8mmds.jpg
I'll be the first one to agree that M855 is not capable of dependably repeatable MOA accuracy. The non concentric nature of the steel penetrator makes it impossible to rely on lot to lot accuracy the way I do with match grade ammunition. The fact is I have done this twice. Once at the NYARNG TAG match in 2007, and again at the MAC 1 match in 2008. The accuracy I obtained I also saw out of other rifles at these same matches, which leads me to believe that the particular lot of ammo we were using was especially concentric.
http://www.box.net/shared/static/p0mvkjxmhm.jpg
....
I'm a little curious how many people have experienced MOA accuracy in their rifles with 10K rounds through the tube. I have one rifle with that many rounds on it and it's a bolt action custom .308. Even that rifle is starting to give up accuracy so I question anyone who claims to still have MOA accuracy out of a semi with the same volume of rounds. I've personally burned out 3 AR barrels when they couldn't hold 3 MOA and these had roughly 3-4K rounds on them in .223.
I'd like to here from the actual people who have shot this much and not "a guy". I say this because I shoot with a bunch of people and most don't believe me when I tell them how many rounds are through even my bolt gun when it shoots as well as it does.
Ok, a little off topic but my accuracy claims with issue weapons and M855 was called into question. Here's my last zeroing target with a brand new M4 and iron sights. The target is actually two groups, you can see my pen mark on the left of the lower group. The first group is about 1\2", the second group is about 3\8". Those are the raw group measurements without subtracting the projectile diameter.
http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/9858/004dbq.jpg
http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/1349/001eo.jpg
I'm with you on this one. Until I see some evidence of the 10k accuracy claim I'm gonna call it fan boy BS. The fact that it comes from the manufacturer makes it even more suspect.
I'm a little curious how many people have experienced MOA accuracy in their rifles with 10K rounds through the tube. I have one rifle with that many rounds on it and it's a bolt action custom .308. Even that rifle is starting to give up accuracy so I question anyone who claims to still have MOA accuracy out of a semi with the same volume of rounds. I've personally burned out 3 AR barrels when they couldn't hold 3 MOA and these had roughly 3-4K rounds on them in .223.
I'd like to here from the actual people who have shot this much and not "a guy". I say this because I shoot with a bunch of people and most don't believe me when I tell them how many rounds are through even my bolt gun when it shoots as well as it does.
I've personally burned out 3 AR barrels when they couldn't hold 3 MOA and these had roughly 3-4K rounds on them in .223.
What did those barrels start off shooting?
Ok, a little off topic but my accuracy claims with issue weapons and M855 was called into question. Here's my last zeroing target with a brand new M4 and iron sights. The target is actually two groups, you can see my pen mark on the left of the lower group. The first group is about 1\2", the second group is about 3\8". Those are the raw group measurements without subtracting the projectile diameter.
Was that at 25 meters?
What did those barrels start off shooting?
Roughly .7-1 MOA consistently in SPR'ish type guns.
Ok, a little off topic but my accuracy claims with issue weapons and M855 was called into question. Here's my last zeroing target with a brand new M4 and iron sights. The target is actually two groups, you can see my pen mark on the left of the lower group. The first group is about 1\2", the second group is about 3\8". Those are the raw group measurements without subtracting the projectile diameter.
http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/9858/004dbq.jpg
http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/1349/001eo.jpg
3-shot groups.http://www.box.net/shared/static/vdgrydjylf.gifhttp://www.box.net/shared/static/0z7o929v01.gifhttp://www.box.net/shared/static/muhh2jks15.gifhttp://www.box.net/shared/static/s112hu8p8e.gif
....
3-shot groups.http://www.box.net/shared/static/vdgrydjylf.gifhttp://www.box.net/shared/static/0z7o929v01.gifhttp://www.box.net/shared/static/muhh2jks15.gifhttp://www.box.net/shared/static/s112hu8p8e.gif
....
very few people use the 10-shot standard.. and for most guys at the range, 3-shots IS the standard. the more hard-core purists will go up to 5. you're the only person i've ever seen using a 10... but that's just my limited perception.
and i'm just being devil's advocate here, but what if i suggested that your 10-shot standard wasn't sufficient, and said only a 20-shot group was a reliable judge of barrel accuracy potential? the point being, you can set whatever standard you want... 10 might be a great compromise, but it's still just an arbitrarily chosen number.
Actually the international standard for group size measurement in 137 round groups.
You have to fire 16 groups of 137 rounds each and then average all the mean radius/extreme spread/group sizes and multiply by pi and divide by the barrel length less the atmospheric factor multiplier used as an aggregate adjuster.
Only then can you be sure that your carbine will even get close to hitting the broad side of a barn from the inside.
Cameron
At one time I too also thought the ole 3rd and def. the 5rd. group was a good standard to go by, but after several yrs of following Molon's continual sermon on the importance of a 10rd. group for a honest and accurate accuracy assessment, I am as firm of a believer in it as there is and I honestly will not consider somebody's or my own groups unless they meet that threshold.
Besides, once you get in the habit of doing it, you cannot go back to shooting kiddie groups and still feel proud of your shooting.
So look at this set of groups consisting of only 5rds...
http://i55.tinypic.com/2mnisus.jpg
Now look at the next set of groups consisting of 10rds...
http://i54.tinypic.com/25kr1hu.jpg
I shot all those groups within a 20min period prob. using the same test vehicle and the groups on the right are Vmax 55gr, ones on left are TAP T2.
In my eyes only one set of groups counts and that is the ladder imo.
very few people use the 10-shot standard.. and for most guys at the range, 3-shots IS the standard. the more hard-core purists will go up to 5. you're the only person i've ever seen using a 10... but that's just my limited perception.
and i'm just being devil's advocate here, but what if i suggested that your 10-shot standard wasn't sufficient, and said only a 20-shot group was a reliable judge of barrel accuracy potential? the point being, you can set whatever standard you want... 10 might be a great compromise, but it's still just an arbitrarily chosen number.
Here’s a news-flash for you, the US Army Marksmanship Unit requires 10-shot groups when evaluating the accuracy of their rifles and ammunition. The Federal Bureau of Investigation requires 10-shot groups for purchasing contracts of ammunition. The US Military requires 10-shot groups for acceptance testing of both 5.56mm weapons and ammunition, all for very scientifically sound reasons.
I’ve posted reams of first-hand scientific data on the statistical significance of using multiple 10-shot groups for accuracy (technically precision) evaluations of firearms and ammunition and there is absolutely nothing arbitrary about it. Until you can post reams of your statistically significant first-hand data to support your position, or disprove my data, you really have no relevant input on the subject matter.
...
Now look at the next set of groups consisting of 10rds...
http://i54.tinypic.com/25kr1hu.jpg
Strong work!
Here’s a news-flash for you, the US Army Marksmanship Unit requires 10-shot groups when evaluating the accuracy of their rifles and ammunition. The Federal Bureau of Investigation requires 10-shot groups for purchasing contracts of ammunition. The US Military requires 10-shot groups for acceptance testing of both 5.56mm weapons and ammunition, all for very scientifically sound reasons.
I’ve posted reams of first-hand scientific data on the statistical significance of using multiple 10-shot groups for accuracy (technically precision) evaluations of firearms and ammunition and there is absolutely nothing arbitrary about it. Until you can post reams of your statistically significant first-hand data to support your position, or disprove my data, you really have no relevant input on the subject matter.
...
we all appreciate your comprehensive testing. nobody appreciates the petulant, sullen, often hostile attitude that comes with it. reeks of complex, holms.
we all appreciate your comprehensive testing. nobody appreciates the petulant, sullen, often hostile attitude that comes with it. reeks of complex, holms.
Get back to me when you have something that remotely resembles factual data to contribute on the subject matter.
.....
Amen, it's why I stayed away from this thread as long as I have:)
No kidding, one of the better threads
noveske stainless barrels are made AT pac-nor on noveske's blanks, noveske's tooling, and by noveske's people.
I always thought is was Pac Nors equipment, tooling, using Noveske spec'd blanks, and programing for the CNC's?
That's right. You have zero first hand knowledge of this topic, can't articulate what level of accuracy is being "achieved" at 10K rounds, and just hang on to other people's words.
I, OTOH, have burned through several barrels in a decade of highpower competition and I *know*, without having to be told, just how long a Krieger SS cut rifled and Wilson and Pac-Nor SS button rifled barrels will hold 1 MOA when chambered in 223 Rem, 260 Rem, and 308 Win.
The fact that you dismiss Krieger as someone making only long bench shooting barrels only further shows your ignorance. BTW, Noveske barrels, last I heard, were made by Pac-Nor. I've had one on my NM AR and know plenty of people with them too. They def do not last 10K rounds with the level of precision NRA competitors demand.Since this is a precision rifle forum, dirt shooting accuracy does not count and that is all you're going to get with ANY barrel, from ANY maker, after the throat is toast with 10K rounds through it.
Same euipment, differnt specs and programing
The target is a 25 meter zeroing target. The upper group is six rounds, the lower group is three rounds. I made a sight adjustment of one up and three right between stages. Since all my rounds were going on call for each group, that's nine rounds that reliably beat 1 MOA. Since it's not your holy grail of ten rounds I suppose it didn't happen. Since I'm not AMU I don't get the luxury of shooting ten round groups. I have no idea who you really are, so why don't you make with some credentials that would lead me to believe you're someone who's actually employed in the marksmanship field, instead of someone who just likes to dump on others for personal pleasure.
3-shot groups.http://www.box.net/shared/static/vdgrydjylf.gifhttp://www.box.net/shared/static/0z7o929v01.gifhttp://www.box.net/shared/static/muhh2jks15.gifhttp://www.box.net/shared/static/s112hu8p8e.gif
....
The target is a 25 meter zeroing target. The upper group is six rounds, the lower group is three rounds. I made a sight adjustment of one up and three right between stages. Since all my rounds were going on call for each group, that's nine rounds that reliably beat 1 MOA. Since it's not your holy grail of ten rounds I suppose it didn't happen. Since I'm not AMU I don't get the luxury of shooting ten round groups. I have no idea who you really are, so why don't you make with some credentials that would lead me to believe you're someone who's actually employed in the marksmanship field, instead of someone who just likes to dump on others for personal pleasure.
=======================
Sarge,
How far were you shooting the target? 25m target setup at 25 yds?
Thanks.
The Army, USMC, and SOCOM require 4 x 5rd groups from the M110 and Mk11 series guns.
I do agree with MOLON that 10 rd groups do give better data, however not all branches and parts of the government agree.
I have seen some sub-moa lots of M855, but frankly its rarer than hens teeth, and given the current accuracy waiver for M855, I view it more as 3-5MOA ammo depending on lot.
Guys I'm new here but come on! We're way off topic at this point. The question posed was how long to Stainless Steel barrels last. Lets forget for a moment that a caliber, firing speed, or type of shooting weren't specified.
Stainless steel is still just stainless steel. I've shot many custom manufacturers of barrels and have come to the conclusion that they all shoot better than I do and I shoot pretty well. The thought that any barrel from a specific manufacturer will last 10K rounds and maintain 1 MOA is ridiculous to the point of being dangerously ignorant. As I stated above I have an actual gun with 10K down the pipe. It's a Remington 700 with a Hart barrel that I use in tactical comps. It's a solid .6-.7 MOA performer but that's not a .223 or semiautomatic. Even this barrel is starting to go away (higher MV).
The amount of heat generated by a semi in .223 shooting even remotely quickly will fry a barrel quicker than a bolt gun with a larger diameter barrel dissipating heat better.
It's not uncommon for M-24s or M40a1's-a3's to have over 10K rounds through them and still maintain MOA performance, but these aren't semi's and they're not .223's.
Considering this is in the Precision Semi part of the forum lets ask some service rifle guys if they get 10K out of their barrels (and are still competitive!). I'm betting they don't no matter what barrel they are using...
25 meter target at 25 Meters actual distance.
=======================
Sarge,
How far were you shooting the target? 25m target setup at 25 yds?
Thanks.
Check the middle of the first page down through the middle of the second page of this thread. Alpha Sierra and myself discuss this exact issue.
Considering this is in the Precision Semi part of the forum lets ask some service rifle guys if they get 10K out of their barrels (and are still competitive!). I'm betting they don't no matter what barrel they are using...
Get back to me when you have something that remotely resembles factual data to contribute on the subject matter.
.....
**** off, molon. you're not staff, you're not moderation, you're not the only guy qualified to put finger to keyboard on this website, and you don't decide who is. :rolleyes:
I always thought is was Pac Nors equipment, tooling, using Noveske spec'd blanks, and programing for the CNC's?
noveske's blanks, made to noveske's specs, on pacnor machines, using noveske spec sheets and noveske tooling, is my understanding.
Stay on target and refrain from personal attacks and profane language.
noveske's blanks, made to noveske's specs, on pacnor machines, using noveske spec sheets and noveske tooling, is my understanding.
I guess since your banned its a moot point, but I asked today and the blanks are made to Noveskes spec (same as any other mfgr) they are Noveskes cnc program, the tooling is Pac Nors, as are the employees. I could go into more detail, but why?
Since this thread is dangerously low on groups proving anything I'd thought I'd add some. This is from the rifle I mentioned earlier. The 4 group target was sight in the day before and the rest at actual match results. The pasters show the range the target was engaged and the unmarked holes are at 700 yards. This is again a bolt action .308. I'm willing to bet vital parts of my anatomy that a semiautomatic .223 could not achieve these results after 10K rounds.... Even Noveske!
Rifle sight in the day before
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w74/long-shot_photos/DSCN1156.jpg
100 and 200 yard targets
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w74/long-shot_photos/DSCN1161.jpg
300 thru 700 yards
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w74/long-shot_photos/DSCN1159.jpg
How about a chrome lined 7.62mm Barrel?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/EMCGroup29April.jpg
Chromoly Steel
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/M110A1Unsuppressed29April.jpg
The chrome lined barrels on the SR-25 EMC's stay sub-moa till around 11k rounds, after that the gas port errosion tends to eat into reliability, though the barrel still can one hole them. These are dual role guns that generally shoot a lot of close quick fire rounds as well.
A normal chromoly steel M110/Mk11 barrel will generally degrade around the 7k mark.
All the above depending on firing schedule, I was in Singapore for a trial, and they had some old SR-25's that had the cold hammer forged barrels that had 18k and still where the hammer of hell in the .5MOA mark out to 800m -- however that user group cleaned them well and treated them like a bolt action rifle more than a semi-auto.
I'll shoot some 10 rd groups this week and compare and contrast to the 5 rds groups.
Kevin,
Very impressive and thank you for posting results. Do you find your .308s last longer than your .223s? That's been my experience. I've had a DPMS LR308 that was cut back to 22" and threaded that shot in the .7"s consistently but I didn't keep it for more than 1200 rounds (semi's are just too damn hard to shoot consistently to be fun!).
I'd love to see some long range targets. 5 shots are more than okay for me.
jeff
I'm willing to bet vital parts of my anatomy that a semiautomatic .223 could not achieve these results after 10K rounds.... Even Noveske!
I would, have to agree with you here, while Noveskes are a fine rifle, their still a "parts" rifle, specd to what he wants. IMO you paying more for a name and can get the same results from BCM, Stoner, LMT, LaRue, etc, and any other fine builder of parts, and or complete rifles
How about a chrome lined 7.62mm Barrel?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/EMCGroup29April.jpg
Chromoly Steel
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/M110A1Unsuppressed29April.jpg
The chrome lined barrels on the SR-25 EMC's stay sub-moa till around 11k rounds, after that the gas port errosion tends to eat into reliability, though the barrel still can one hole them. These are dual role guns that generally shoot a lot of close quick fire rounds as well.
A normal chromoly steel M110/Mk11 barrel will generally degrade around the 7k mark.
All the above depending on firing schedule, I was in Singapore for a trial, and they had some old SR-25's that had the cold hammer forged barrels that had 18k and still where the hammer of hell in the .5MOA mark out to 800m -- however that user group cleaned them well and treated them like a bolt action rifle more than a semi-auto.
I'll shoot some 10 rd groups this week and compare and contrast to the 5 rds groups.
I have always maintained, that a good CL barrel, with good loads, can shoot under 1 MOA, as well as 90% of AR shooters. Nice groups!
That's pretty dam impressive. My understanding is FN selected their chrome lined barrels for their bolt guns by test firing them. The rejected barrels were sent back to the MG line. Can you give us a little info on how you select your CL barrels?
All the above depending on firing schedule, I was in Singapore for a trial, and they had some old SR-25's that had the cold hammer forged barrels that had 18k and still where the hammer of hell in the .5MOA mark out to 800m -- however that user group cleaned them well and treated them like a bolt action rifle more than a semi-auto.
I would, have to agree with you here, while Noveskes are a fine rifle, their still a "parts" rifle, specd to what he wants. IMO you paying more for a name and can get the same results from BCM, Stoner, LMT, LaRue, etc, and any other fine builder of parts, and or complete rifles
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......mmmmmmmmmm....
IMO...sounds like somebody doesn't like Noveske.....
.
Gets built -- if it does not shoot, it goes into scrap.
Hey guys. How long will new ss barrels last with their accuracy, say around 10k rounds with no significant accuracy loss?
Thanks guys!
KevinB's Douglas barrel went 18,000 before groups opened up, and I really can't say about mine because I haven't shot enough through the SS ARs to get even close to that.
However, when you consider that a new stainless barrel costs (BCM $299 for SS410 16-18" or Noveske 16-18" $455-465 or Lothar Walther $325, Douglas up to $350, Krieger $290-450) you are looking at spending $4,500 in ammunition (15,000 rounds at $300 per 1,000 for cheap commercial ammo, double it for match ammo) before incurring the cost of re-barreling your AR and the cost of a premium match barrel would be only about $300-450.
The reality is that a premium stainless steel barrel is actually a low cost item when compared to other running costs.
Cameron
The reality is that a premium stainless steel barrel is actually a low cost item when compared to other running costs.
Cameron
Might be why some of these beautiful guns are only seen and not their groups!!!
I have found that it's exponentially easier to build a beautiful precision AR, than it is to then take that beautiful AR and make it produce on paper.
It takes numerous range trips with different loads, tweeks, and in my case mind sets/mental focus in order to finally hone in my latest build and get it shooting to my expectations. To me that is the fun stuff, and I enjoy the tedious and time consuming work/effort involved in not only building a precision AR, but making it earn the mark on paper once built.
It took 7-8 trips with my recent precision AR to the range in order to produce my best group to date with this particular build. That is like 400-500rds. fired before I could figure it all out....aka..the cost of a new Rock SS barrel:eek:
http://i53.tinypic.com/2cwrl8p.jpg
http://i51.tinypic.com/j0wpps.jpg
25 meter target at 25 Meters actual distance.
I'm confused how your groups at 25 meters equal out to sub MOA. I've always understood that if you're measuring groups for MOA, then you had to shoot those groups at least at 100yds.
I shoot those kind of groups when I zero my M4 as well, but I've never considered that a sub MOA group. Not trying to flame you, just asking for an education.
For what it's worth I'm an 11B4V
25 meter target at 25 Meters actual distance.
Are you joking? You are using a 25m target as proof that the M4 with M855 is somehow a sub MOA shooter. That’s just silly.
===================
......mmmmmmmmmm....
IMO...sounds like somebody doesn't like Noveske.....
.
No I have one, I just think you can get just as much, without paying for the name. I was shocked, when I was told a few things, but I never did drink the Kool Aid for Noveske. I bought mine before the huge price increase, due to name demand, sorta like paying for the dancing pony. One would be better served going BCM, etc, IMO. To be honest, what does he manufacture himself?
ETA, my BCM's shoot just as well as my Noveske, same for my home built frankenguns, hell they can all out shoot me.
One would be better served going BCM, etc, IMO. To be honest, what does he manufacture himself?
What does BCM manufacture themselves? What is this "he" stuff? This isn't one guy in a barn ripping the lables off of boxes to resell them. Do you think Larue is making barrels? Does that mean that an OBR or Stealth upper can't group?
Steel bar stock goes to Pac-Nor, get's deep hole drilled and rifled, then sent to Noveske. So what. Does Ford have a rubber tree farm to make the tires for the Mustang?
It is completley unrealistic to assume a company wouldn't source parts. There aren't that many companies out there making this stuff. I would gather that most of the LPKs on the market (including BCM) all come from CMT.
WOA doesn't make their own barrel blanks. In fact, the only new company that has the largest capacity in true manufacturing that I'm aware of is Daniel Defense.
For $450, I can buy a Noveske barrel, say a 16" Recon stainless, bead blasted, with a pinned gas block and gas tube. I fail to see how this taken as "buying the name". This is more than a reasonable price.
These two products below, despite both being stainless 18" barrels are not the same, and not really comparable. You are getting more features with the Noveske, and of course you're going to pay for it.
http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=b-18-556&cat=158&page=1&search=&since=&status=
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-18-SPR-SS410-Barrel-with-Rifle-Length-Gas-p/bcm-recbrl%2018ss.htm
I've been pricing barrels and have spent quite a bit of time getting quotes. The price you see for a Kreiger or a WOA barrel is for a base unit. Add bead/media blasting, a gas block and tube, drilling the block and barrel to pin the gas block etc and the price goes up. Some places even charge for barrel extentions and chambering, drilling gas ports etc. Figure out lead time too. Kreiger told me 3-4 months at a minimum. I can call Noveske and order one of many barrels and have it by the weekend.
I also just bought a matched Noveske upper & lower for $285 shipped. The fit of the two is the best in any forged receiver i've owned or handled. I've seen billet receivers that don't fit like this, or barley work period. What do you think/should you think something like this costs? Sure I can find a junk receiver for $75, then I get crap coatings and out of spec rails.
I'm not trying to come off as a fanboy here, but damn dude. Quality costs money. I don't care who's name is on it. Noveske stuff is comparable with market costs. I'm not slamming BCM, I like their stuff too, but I doubt Paul "he" is running a steel foundry, and has to source blanks like everyone else.
MOA is best understood as 1" at 100 yards. Multiply up to get group sizes at 200, 300, etc. Multiply down to get groups at 75, 50, etc. A rifle shooting a 3" group at 300 yards is a 1 MOA rifle. That same rifle should shoot 1\4" groups at 25 yards. My experience is that unless the bullet is out of round, the groups I shoot at close ranges are roughly accurate in determining the groups I'll shoot at longer ranges. The biggest problem with M855 is the steel insert causes horizontal stringing because the bullet isn't concentric from a weight standpoint. Groups start looking like footballs from 300 meters on out.
I'm a 31b20 with a secondary of 11b20, no sweat.
I'm confused how your groups at 25 meters equal out to sub MOA. I've always understood that if you're measuring groups for MOA, then you had to shoot those groups at least at 100yds.
I shoot those kind of groups when I zero my M4 as well, but I've never considered that a sub MOA group. Not trying to flame you, just asking for an education.
For what it's worth I'm an 11B4V
What does BCM manufacture themselves? What is this "he" stuff? This isn't one guy in a barn ripping the lables off of boxes to resell them. Do you think Larue is making barrels? Does that mean that an OBR or Stealth upper can't group?
Steel bar stock goes to Pac-Nor, get's deep hole drilled and rifled, then sent to Noveske. So what. Does Ford have a rubber tree farm to make the tires for the Mustang?
It is completley unrealistic to assume a company wouldn't source parts. There aren't that many companies out there making this stuff. I would gather that most of the LPKs on the market (including BCM) all come from CMT.
WOA doesn't make their own barrel blanks. In fact, the only new company that has the largest capacity in true manufacturing that I'm aware of is Daniel Defense.
For $450, I can buy a Noveske barrel, say a 16" Recon stainless, bead blasted, with a pinned gas block and gas tube. I fail to see how this taken as "buying the name". This is more than a reasonable price.
These two products below, despite both being stainless 18" barrels are not the same, and not really comparable. You are getting more features with the Noveske, and of course you're going to pay for it.
http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=b-18-556&cat=158&page=1&search=&since=&status=
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-18-SPR-SS410-Barrel-with-Rifle-Length-Gas-p/bcm-recbrl%2018ss.htm
I've been pricing barrels and have spent quite a bit of time getting quotes. The price you see for a Kreiger or a WOA barrel is for a base unit. Add bead/media blasting, a gas block and tube, drilling the block and barrel to pin the gas block etc and the price goes up. Some places even charge for barrel extentions and chambering, drilling gas ports etc. Figure out lead time too. Kreiger told me 3-4 months at a minimum. I can call Noveske and order one of many barrels and have it by the weekend.
I also just bought a matched Noveske upper & lower for $285 shipped. The fit of the two is the best in any forged receiver i've owned or handled. I've seen billet receivers that don't fit like this, or barley work period. What do you think/should you think something like this costs? Sure I can find a junk receiver for $75, then I get crap coatings and out of spec rails.
I'm not trying to come off as a fanboy here, but damn dude. Quality costs money. I don't care who's name is on it. Noveske stuff is comparable with market costs. I'm not slamming BCM, I like their stuff too, but I doubt Paul "he" is running a steel foundry, and has to source blanks like everyone else.
I guess that did come off as a slam, and it shouldnt have, if you price allot of the same parts, barrels excluded the exact same part with Noveskes name brings more $$$, I think its great capitalism at its best, but damn shop around save some $$$.
Let me share a secret I've learned with EVERY hobby i've ever had.
Parts of the same manufacturer tend to work best together.
Will a DPMS bolt carrier group work with a Kreiger barrel? Probably, but far from ideal.
So if I spend $450 on a Noveske barrel, and $150 on their bolt carrier group, I think that is money well spent. BTW, $150 for a BCG is about right.
Stake that DPMS carrier, add the proper extractor spring and o-ring, MPI the bolt, and you'll see where that money went.
If you think Noveske's prices are that jacked up, enlist in the military or go to the police academy and use the discount they put out to people working to keep you safe in your bed.
This has gotten off topic, so I digress on the Noveske stuff.
Given the fact that the Noveske comes with the gas block and tube, it really isn't that much more than other high end barrel like Shilen, I just hope it's that good. Krieger, Hart, and Douglas all come in from about $280-$360. Clicking the link for AR15 barrels on Pac-Nor's site brings you to Noveske, so it looks like they have pretty much taken over the 'tactical' part of that market.
For $450, I can buy a Noveske barrel, say a 16" Recon stainless, bead blasted, with a pinned gas block and gas tube. I fail to see how this taken as "buying the name". This is more than a reasonable price.
These two products below, despite both being stainless 18" barrels are not the same, and not really comparable. You are getting more features with the Noveske, and of course you're going to pay for it.
http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=b-18-556&cat=158&page=1&search=&since=&status=
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-18-SPR-SS410-Barrel-with-Rifle-Length-Gas-p/bcm-recbrl%2018ss.htm
What I speculate happened is that John Noveske worked at Pac-Nor, saw what they were doing, and saw a opening to make his own play.
Hard to fault a man for this.
As for the results, I think Molon tested a Recon at about .8 MOA, shooting 10 round groups. I'd happily call that a result.
MOA is best understood as 1" at 100 yards. Multiply up to get group sizes at 200, 300, etc. Multiply down to get groups at 75, 50, etc. A rifle shooting a 3" group at 300 yards is a 1 MOA rifle. That same rifle should shoot 1\4" groups at 25 yards. My experience is that unless the bullet is out of round, the groups I shoot at close ranges are roughly accurate in determining the groups I'll shoot at longer ranges. The biggest problem with M855 is the steel insert causes horizontal stringing because the bullet isn't concentric from a weight standpoint. Groups start looking like footballs from 300 meters on out.
I'm a 31b20 with a secondary of 11b20, no sweat.
Ok, I got you, you're relying on the math to make it an MOA gun. Look while I got the math and agree with the fact that the insert will cause issues, I've put a few rounds downrange and seen a few others do the same. In MY personal experience, I've never seen an M4 shoot sub moa at 100yd or further, 2 MOA yes, sub MOA no. I can take you to any M4 zero range and show you a multitude of mathematically sub MOA zero targets, the results at 100 yds are different. Now, take a new M4 barrel, free float it, and feed it some Mk262 or other match ammo, or even m193 and you'll see MOA performance, or less.
A stock M4 with M855 at 100 or greater, well until I see it I'd have to disagree. With a stock M16, wellllll.....maybe.
What I speculate happened is that John Noveske worked at Pac-Nor, saw what they were doing, and saw a opening to make his own play.
Hard to fault a man for this.
As for the results, I think Molon tested a Recon at about .8 MOA, shooting 10 round groups. I'd happily call that a result.
He did work at Pac-Nor.
Completely unrelated, but ask him sometime about what he tried to do after 9/11. John's a good guy, and a quiet professional about the customers he serves.
He did work at Pac-Nor.
Completely unrelated, but ask him sometime about what he tried to do after 9/11. John's a good guy, and a quiet professional about the customers he serves.
I have no qualms at all with Noveske, hell the guy is a text book case for capitalism! His barrels are some of the best! My point here is simply, why pay for his roll mark, so to speak, why pay $185.00 for a Noveske lower, when you buy say a Spikes for $99.00? I dont have the list in front of me but what, there is not that many places that finish them, so they could be from the same place (again no list in front of me), same exact reciever, except markings. So please dont get me wrong he makes a fine, fine product.
Let me share a secret I've learned with EVERY hobby i've ever had.
Parts of the same manufacturer tend to work best together.
Will a DPMS bolt carrier group work with a Kreiger barrel? Probably, but far from ideal.
So if I spend $450 on a Noveske barrel, and $150 on their bolt carrier group, I think that is money well spent. BTW, $150 for a BCG is about right.
Stake that DPMS carrier, add the proper extractor spring and o-ring, MPI the bolt, and you'll see where that money went.
If you think Noveske's prices are that jacked up, enlist in the military or go to the police academy and use the discount they put out to people working to keep you safe in your bed.
This has gotten off topic, so I digress on the Noveske stuff.
Something else I failed to mention, allot of resellers, jack the prices up for the Noveske name, its to bad he has no way to control that, I saw a Noveske lower on a AR here for sale, gun shop wants $1800.00, and its not a Noveske, other than the lower.
Agreed
I have no qualms at all with Noveske, hell the guy is a text book case for capitalism! His barrels are some of the best! My point here is simply, why pay for his roll mark, so to speak, why pay $185.00 for a Noveske lower, when you buy say a Spikes for $99.00? I dont have the list in front of me but what, there is not that many places that finish them, so they could be from the same place (again no list in front of me), same exact reciever, except markings. So please dont get me wrong he makes a fine, fine product.
Ok, I got you. I agree about lowers. I use Stag primarily and you're right, there are only so many that make them, then they're sold by different outlets.
I have found that it's exponentially easier to build a beautiful precision AR, than it is to then take that beautiful AR and make it produce on paper.
It takes numerous range trips with different loads, tweeks, and in my case mind sets/mental focus in order to finally hone in my latest build and get it shooting to my expectations. To me that is the fun stuff, and I enjoy the tedious and time consuming work/effort involved in not only building a precision AR, but making it earn the mark on paper once built.
It took 7-8 trips with my recent precision AR to the range in order to produce my best group to date with this particular build. That is like 400-500rds. fired before I could figure it all out....aka..the cost of a new Rock SS barrel:eek:
http://i53.tinypic.com/2cwrl8p.jpg
http://i51.tinypic.com/j0wpps.jpg
Beautiful work, as usual man!
Thanks pal, you are one of the few who prob. knows how much time and revisions it took me to finally get something on paper that looked good:)
Cesiumsponge
02-19-11, 12:38
noveske stainless barrels are made AT pac-nor on noveske's blanks, noveske's tooling, and by noveske's people.
In manufacturing, the customer can send customer-supplied tooling to the vendor to reduce tooling and fixturing costs and send customer-supplied material so the vendor doesn't have to source a supplier.
However the vendor isn't going to let the customer send over a bunch of employees into the vendor's shop and just let the customer's employees start running the vendor's machinery and start jamming up the lunch room microwave. OSHA would have a field day with untrained non-employees running machinery and it would violate ISO QC processes, as well as cause all sorts of insurance and liability nightmares. That is a ridiculous statement. Maybe at a one-man operation but not any decent-sized company. They might send over people to review the process and inspect, but that is more along the lines of QC processes for aerospace.
In manufacturing, the customer can send customer-supplied tooling to the vendor to reduce tooling and fixturing costs and send customer-supplied material so the vendor doesn't have to source a supplier.
However the vendor isn't going to let the customer send over a bunch of employees into the vendor's shop and just let the customer's employees start running the vendor's machinery and start jamming up the lunch room microwave. OSHA would have a field day with untrained non-employees running machinery and it would violate ISO QC processes, as well as cause all sorts of insurance and liability nightmares. That is a ridiculous statement. Maybe at a one-man operation but not any decent-sized company. They might send over people to review the process and inspect, but that is more along the lines of QC processes for aerospace.
i'm not in the machining industry, but it's done ALL THE TIME in other industries.
however- i was apparently wrong. PacNor's people produce noveske barrels- but on Noveske's dime.
Noveske: Our stainless barrels are made partially in ourshop and partially in Pac-Nor’s shop. And, the relationship that I have with Pac-Nor…I used to work there, and now what’s goin’ on is I buy steel, I take it to Pac-Nor, when the guys clock out of Pac-Nor, they clock into our barrel production. They machine my blanks with our tooling, which is all made to our design, including the drills, reamers, button, so forth, so on. They stress-relieve to our recipe, and then they give the barrels back to us, and then we finish them all in our shop.
Cesiumsponge
02-19-11, 18:09
The snippet you posted is fairly typical as the customer gets to have their stuff made the way they want and most do some processes in-house, and outsource other processes to vendors. Many send custom tooling and fixturing to vendors, otherwise vendors would have to make that tooling and fixturing, then charge the customer for it. When companies get tooling made, they have to chose from a variety of other companies so its possible Noveske weeded through a bunch of crappy suppliers before they found reliable companies to crank our their specific tooling. Some of our customers send over custom fixturing and tooling as well.
I've never heard of vendor employees clocking in and out for different customers. Keeping track of machining hours is typical for small prototype work where you charge by the hour, but production level stuff has a machine shop running X quantity of parts for a price quote. A machine shop will be running dozens of parts for dozens of models for dozens of customers at any given point so production is staggered in various stages of completion. It's not like all machines start and end the same job at the same time. Maybe it was stated that way to simplify the process for laymen interested in an inside peek.
Either way, those barrels are in the hands of top notch companies. I have one of Noveske's 18" Mk12 3-groove match barrels (not their polygonal rifled SPR barrel)for my SPR. Good stuff, I'd like to drive south and take a tour of the Noveske facilities some time.
I guess that did come off as a slam, and it shouldnt have, if you price allot of the same parts, barrels excluded the exact same part with Noveskes name brings more $$$, I think its great capitalism at its best, but damn shop around save some $$$.
Are you the same poster slamming Noveske at CalGuns? :rolleyes:
Are you the same poster slamming Noveske at CalGuns? :rolleyes:
Nope, never been there. Did you read my clairification, as to why I'm not a Noveske Kool Aid drinker?
Alpha Sierra
As a High Power shooter, I would be curious to hear your barrel life results with actual barrels, in the calibres you have shot.
And the reason I ask is that as you have stated, there is a big difference in how long a barrel shoots good to a 100 or 200 yards, vs 600 and 1000.
Stainless barrels are must better for uses where you need to have extreme accuracy. (Sub MOA) Basically if you want a competition rifle for three gun or a precision rifle go stainless. If you want a work gun (ie self defense gun) go chrome lined. I also have an issue with what bkb0000 said about people being able to shoot sub moa. Frankly its easy to shoot good groups with an accurate AR from the bench. Beginners have no issue shooting sub moa based on my experience of letting new shooters shoot some of my guns at the range. (from the bench)
Pat
This. When I was a kid (10-14), I was shooting 2 moa with a CAR 6724 and m193 all day long. Give me good ammo and a bolt gun and I shot 1/2moa, or good ammo in the 6724, and around 1.
Also, necropost to kick up discussion again as this topic interests me. I pull about 1moa out of my chf chrome lined barrels with ammo they like, and expect them to hold this past 10K rounds, and have friends with the same guns that have achieved it no stress. I want more in the way of accuracy, though. I personally am capable of better precision based on my experience with other guns with more precision oriented barrels, and would like to take advantage of this and "see what I can do".
I'm planning to have a Bartlein 12.5" spun up for suppressed use. Basically as OP says. Precision use plus cracking through a mag or two and a carbine class now and again. I'm curious how long a Kreiger/Bartlein/etc will last under such use before groups with good ammo swell beyond 1.5moa (I consider a barrel unsat when I cannot get sub 1.5 out of it, even for blasting use, and I quickly lose interest in it/move on/sell it/sent it back to its maker.)
Straight Shooter
12-30-19, 13:28
Wow, from 2011 to now, how many light years better are SS barrels now than then?
Im working up a 20" precision build. Going to be using a Criterion 20" SS Hybrid Nitrided barrel. Were they even doing that in 2011?
Wow, from 2011 to now, how many light years better are SS barrels now than then?
Im working up a 20" precision build. Going to be using a Criterion 20" SS Hybrid Nitrided barrel. Were they even doing that in 2011?
They have been doing QPQ for the last half century, only recently has it been applied to rifle barrels. I question how it performs, though, having borescoped QPQ'ed and CMV Chrome Lined barrels. Further, why is Kreiger, Bartlien, etc. not doing QPQ, if it is so excellent? If they could make a barrel that would last another season, hi-power shooters would flock to it.
They have been doing QPQ for the last half century, only recently has it been applied to rifle barrels. I question how it performs, though, having borescoped QPQ'ed and CMV Chrome Lined barrels. Further, why is Kreiger, Bartlien, etc. not doing QPQ, if it is so excellent? If they could make a barrel that would last another season, hi-power shooters would flock to it.
Isn't there a service where you break in your barrel, send it off for QPQ, and reinstall it to get that extra season? I remember in Euro's thread that he declined to do it because he was so happy with the way it was shooting he didn't want to chance anything.
After re-reading this entire thread, I wonder how can you measure throat for those who don't get to shoot to 600 consistently? For example: You buy a MK12 copy, it shoots 1 MOA, and you get to prove it's holds yearly at some distant range. You practice all year every year(200 rounds a month) but you miss year 3's long range practice. Now it has ~5000 rds on it approaching year 4's long range time and still shoots 1MOA at 100y. Is there a way to measure throat that tells you that it's probably time to rebarrel?
Steve Shannon
12-31-19, 16:03
After re-reading this entire thread, I wonder how can you measure throat for those who don't get to shoot to 600 consistently? For example: You buy a MK12 copy, it shoots 1 MOA, and you get to prove it's holds yearly at some distant range. You practice all year every year(200 rounds a month) but you miss year 3's long range practice. Now it has ~5000 rds on it approaching year 4's long range time and still shoots 1MOA at 100y. Is there a way to measure throat that tells you that it's probably time to rebarrel?
One way is to do a chamber cast and then measure it.
https://youtu.be/j8jE2o7ePbo
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
After re-reading this entire thread, I wonder how can you measure throat for those who don't get to shoot to 600 consistently? For example: You buy a MK12 copy, it shoots 1 MOA, and you get to prove it's holds yearly at some distant range. You practice all year every year(200 rounds a month) but you miss year 3's long range practice. Now it has ~5000 rds on it approaching year 4's long range time and still shoots 1MOA at 100y. Is there a way to measure throat that tells you that it's probably time to rebarrel?
No, not really. Each barrel is its own animal. When it starts to throw out fliers at the 600, it's time. no matter what it looks like. Until then, if it shoots, it shoots, no matter what it LOOKS like or measures at, or whatever.
*sentiments above are from people much more experienced than I, and do not reflect my neurotic beliefs.
No, not really. Each barrel is its own animal. When it starts to throw out fliers at the 600, it's time. no matter what it looks like. Until then, if it shoots, it shoots, no matter what it LOOKS like or measures at, or whatever.
Always felt this was the answer, but I add to make sure that's with regular cleaning. A few missed cleaning sessions can induce the same effect. Doesn't have to be bare SS, but fouled to all heck isn't going to best represent barrel capability.
On the topic of brands, I've always liked how Noveske includes everything needed (Block, Tube, Pin and HS Bolt for extra if needed) for a solid install. I'm sure there are better and worse choices, I just had to make one with information available when built my rifle. I'll personally never be able to differentiate one SS barrels performance from another, just don't shoot that much.
Straight Shooter
01-01-20, 19:48
They have been doing QPQ for the last half century, only recently has it been applied to rifle barrels. I question how it performs, though, having borescoped QPQ'ed and CMV Chrome Lined barrels. Further, why is Kreiger, Bartlien, etc. not doing QPQ, if it is so excellent? If they could make a barrel that would last another season, hi-power shooters would flock to it.
Id be interested to know what those bores looked like, to seemingly sour you on the QPQ process. As to why those makers you quoted dont QPQ...I do not know.
But, on the other hand..why do others go to the trouble TO do it? Now, any info or knowledge I may/may not have comes from stuff I read & study on here and several other places. We got a lot of makers doing it now, so isnt the process validated?
No, not really. Each barrel is its own animal. When it starts to throw out fliers at the 600, it's time. no matter what it looks like. Until then, if it shoots, it shoots, no matter what it LOOKS like or measures at, or whatever.
*sentiments above are from people much more experienced than I, and do not reflect my neurotic beliefs.
This is the best observation in the thread.
Always felt this was the answer, but I add to make sure that's with regular cleaning. A few missed cleaning sessions can induce the same effect. Doesn't have to be bare SS, but fouled to all heck isn't going to best represent barrel capability.
On the topic of brands, I've always liked how Noveske includes everything needed (Block, Tube, Pin and HS Bolt for extra if needed) for a solid install. I'm sure there are better and worse choices, I just had to make one with information available when built my rifle. I'll personally never be able to differentiate one SS barrels performance from another, just don't shoot that much.
I know people who literally dont clean a barrel. It delivers plenty of accuracy. (1/3-1/2 moa or so out to 6 hundo)
Id be interested to know what those bores looked like, to seemingly sour you on the QPQ process. As to why those makers you quoted dont QPQ...I do not know.
But, on the other hand..why do others go to the trouble TO do it? Now, any info or knowledge I may/may not have comes from stuff I read & study on here and several other places. We got a lot of makers doing it now, so isnt the process validated?
Well, this is the gas port of my girlfriend's rifle. It has about 300ish rounds on it. QPQ. I am just not seeing it as any better than anything else really. You will note that the erosion of the port is nothing special.
As to the downside...it involves some serious heat. That can cause issues of its own, even if the barrel extension is installed post.
60182
An armorer for the Texas Highpower Rifle Teams (both the juniors and the adults) is now building National Match AR barrels from Shilen stainless blanks, then has them nitrided.
One gentleman hit 10,000 rounds by logged count. He was still nailing the 600-yard stage of the National Match Course but the team wanted an eyeballs-on assessment to judge true barrel wear. They pulled the barrel and measured throat, lande, and gas port deterioration and the consensus was the barrel could probably go maybe another 3,000-5,000 rounds at that wear rate.
The armorer spun up a new replacement and the shooter says it's a good barrel, but not quite as good as the original.
The armorer builds barrels for the gentleman who won the 2016 President's Match at the National Matches in Camp Perry, Ohio.
Straight Shooter
01-02-20, 21:53
Well, this is the gas port of my girlfriend's rifle. It has about 300ish rounds on it. QPQ. I am just not seeing it as any better than anything else really. You will note that the erosion of the port is nothing special.
As to the downside...it involves some serious heat. That can cause issues of its own, even if the barrel extension is installed post.
60182
Thanks for that WS6.
Straight Shooter
01-02-20, 21:56
An armorer for the Texas Highpower Rifle Teams (both the juniors and the adults) is now building National Match AR barrels from Shilen stainless blanks, then has them nitrided.
One gentleman hit 10,000 rounds by logged count. He was still nailing the 600-yard stage of the National Match Course but the team wanted an eyeballs-on assessment to judge true barrel wear. They pulled the barrel and measured throat, lande, and gas port deterioration and the consensus was the barrel could probably go maybe another 3,000-5,000 rounds at that wear rate.
The armorer spun up a new replacement and the shooter says it's a good barrel, but not quite as good as the original.
The armorer builds barrels for the gentleman who won the 2016 President's Match at the National Matches in Camp Perry, Ohio.
Was that you, by chance?
An armorer for the Texas Highpower Rifle Teams (both the juniors and the adults) is now building National Match AR barrels from Shilen stainless blanks, then has them nitrided.
One gentleman hit 10,000 rounds by logged count. He was still nailing the 600-yard stage of the National Match Course but the team wanted an eyeballs-on assessment to judge true barrel wear. They pulled the barrel and measured throat, lande, and gas port deterioration and the consensus was the barrel could probably go maybe another 3,000-5,000 rounds at that wear rate.
The armorer spun up a new replacement and the shooter says it's a good barrel, but not quite as good as the original.
The armorer builds barrels for the gentleman who won the 2016 President's Match at the National Matches in Camp Perry, Ohio.
10,000 rounds on one barrel with good accuracy is amazing. Not only am I interested in the barrel, but would also like to hear about the shooter's cleaning regimen.
10,000 rounds on one barrel with good accuracy is amazing. Not only am I interested in the barrel, but would also like to hear about the shooter's cleaning regimen.
Depends on accuracy. Are we talking 1/2moa, <1moa, 5 shot groups, 30 shot composites, 200m, 600m? 1moa 10 shots at 100 yards isn't very impressive. 1/2moa at 600 for 30...
After re-reading this entire thread, I wonder how can you measure throat for those who don't get to shoot to 600 consistently?
Snip
Is there a way to measure throat that tells you that it's probably time to rebarrel?
Throat erosion gauges are a thing. Here’s an article explaining why they don’t necessarily work for this purpose, from a company that sells them: https://www.fulton-armory.com/%5Cfaqs%5CM14-FAQs%5CTEGauge.htm
Throat erosion gauges are a thing. Here’s an article explaining why they don’t necessarily work for this purpose, from a company that sells them: https://www.fulton-armory.com/%5Cfaqs%5CM14-FAQs%5CTEGauge.htm
Excellent read, thank you.
Steve Shannon
01-03-20, 08:06
Throat erosion gauges are a thing. Here’s an article explaining why they don’t necessarily work for this purpose, from a company that sells them: https://www.fulton-armory.com/%5Cfaqs%5CM14-FAQs%5CTEGauge.htm
Thanks for that!
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
This is from Nez in Austin, reference the nitrided Texas team barrels:
The longest running barrel we pulled out had 10741, it didn't need to be pulled, but I forced a friend to do so before he headed to the Nationals. The last 600 he shot was 198 with an 8 (he got burned) and 50% Xs. For a grand senior he was happy with the barrel.
The rest of the barrels we have out there are still running with varying round count as much as over 6K and still going.
This is from Nez in Austin, reference the nitrided Texas team barrels:
That's awesome. Does he sell those barrels?
I'm not sure, but I'll ask. He's out of town this weekend.
Here's a photo of the barrel log for the tube they pulled:
60354
rcoodyar15
02-10-21, 14:47
For a high round count stainless barrel I would investigate JP Rifles Supermatch
For a precision rifle I would look to Krieger or Bartlein or other premium rifle barrel. Bugholes can fix you up.
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