Looking for some criticism...

[drummerdude1188]

Shot this 5-shot group at five yards the other day. I have a new m&p 9 and I have been consistently shooting like this. Up and to the left and at the same angle. I have not don't much shooting past five yards because if I cant shoot the bullseye at 5yrds I cant hit it at 10. I can say that at longer ranges the groups really spread out and do not pattern as much up to the left, more like all over. Anyway, any insight on what it going on here?

(hand/mag is in the picture for size comparison to target)
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a292/oliver_edwards/henry/P1200532.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a292/oliver_edwards/henry/P1200531.jpg

[Magic_Salad0892]

You're jerking the trigger, and/or anticipating recoil.

I think. Ask somebody who knows more than I.

[chilic82]

Whatever your doing, your doing it every shot.

[MarshallDodge]

That looks like up and left to me, but very consistent.

Try bench resting the gun and see if that improves the point of aim.

[SlapChopDonkey]

http://www.targetshooting.ca/docs/Pistol_Shot_Analysis.pdf

A range I shoot at was using a target similar to this for a class they were teaching last weekend. Thought it was a simple way to figure out what your mistakes might be. Hope it helps.

[chriskc04]

Do your groups look like this with JUST the M&P, or with other guns as well?

[drummerdude1188]

That looks like up and left to me, but very consistent.

Try bench resting the gun and see if that improves the point of aim.

Oops, I meant left. It is very consistent. Its always in the same place. Cant figure out what's happening.

[cslone]

Has anyone else shot it? What results are they getting? Do you shoot groups like this with your other handguns(high left)?

Typically in my experience high left would mean anticipating recoil/pushing, but I guess it could be the sights if you don't do this with other guns.

[drummerdude1188]

Do your groups look like this with JUST the M&P, or with other guns as well?

I dont shoot enough other guns to make a very educated answer, but I do know that except for the glock I don't shoot other pistols as well as the m&p/glock. I have small hands. 1911's/sigs/xd, when I have shot them it has not been as well as the glock/m&p.


Has anyone else shot it? What results are they getting? Do you shoot groups like this with your other handguns(high left)?

Typically in my experience high left would mean anticipating recoil/pushing, but I guess it could be the sights if you don't do this with other guns.

This is my only handgun. Other people have shot it and they have not had as much success

[P2000]

You can buy some snap caps(plastic or plastic/metal rounds), and next time you go to the range, mix it in with your live ammo so that each time you pull the trigger you do not know if it will go bang or click. It will be very apparent if you are anticipating the shot, or jerking the trigger. I have had good luck doing this for myself and others.

edited to add: And when you do this, keep looking at your front sight, to see if it wiggles as the pistol goes click. You have to train yourself to only pull the trigger, straight back, and do no other movements at that moment. Easier said than done.

[GermanSynergy]

My suggestion is to enroll in a reputable training class with an industry professional. :)

Not trying to sound like a jerk, but that it a surefire way to help you improve your shooting, as well as diagnose some of your own errors and training scars.

[operator81]

You can buy some snap caps(plastic or plastic/metal rounds), and next time you go to the range, mix it in with your live ammo so that each time you pull the trigger you do not know if it will go bang or click. It will be very apparent if you are anticipating the shot, or jerking the trigger. I have had good luck doing this for myself and others.

edited to add: And when you do this, keep looking at your front sight, to see if it wiggles as the pistol goes click. You have to train yourself to only pull the trigger, straight back, and do no other movements at that moment. Easier said than done.

This is good advice, short of professional training. I used this when I taught my PD Handgun training when officers couldn't (wouldn't) acknowledge they were doing something wrong. In addition to helping diagnose a trigger jerk and teach trigger control, mixing a few dummies in your mags is a great way to practice malfunction drills.

[RogerinTPA]

Your shot group is pretty good, if you can do the same as you claim. Looks like an inconsistent sight picture. Might need to slow down a little and make sure the sights aren't disturbed when the trigger is pressed. Do some "wall drills" and "case drills" using snap caps to work on consistent trigger press and sight alignment. Ball and Dummy drills, as mentioned by P2000, is another excellent drill to work on trigger control and sight alignment. Check the front and rear sight to ensure they're centered. If you can't tell, have a Smith check it, then get professional training.

[Thursday]

All the above are great ideas. I love the snap cap one works great, so as long as you don't know where they are in the mag of course :lol: One last thing not sure if I looked over it or not but are you shooting left or right handed?

[F-Trooper05]

Get a laser for your dry fire drills.

[John_Wayne777]

High and left could be caused by any number of things ranging from the sights on your weapon being off (and frequently they are) to a failure on your part to align the sights properly. Try having someone else who is able to hold a decent group shoot the weapon and see if it is off for them. Try using a different colored target...something that provides a very clear contrast against your sights. Sometimes people (like me) struggle with shooting black sights against a black bullseye because the sights and the black of the bullseye seem to melt together to the point where the outline of the front sight is hard to make out.

You should carefully investigate this as soon as possible because it's also possible that your gun suffers from a premature unlock problem. If the weapon unlocks too early it can actually throw the bullet off target by a significant margin. What is a couple of inches at 5 yards can turn into feet at 25.

[C4IGrant]

High and left could be caused by any number of things ranging from the sights on your weapon being off (and frequently they are) to a failure on your part to align the sights properly. Try having someone else who is able to hold a decent group shoot the weapon and see if it is off for them. Try using a different colored target...something that provides a very clear contrast against your sights. Sometimes people (like me) struggle with shooting black sights against a black bullseye because the sights and the black of the bullseye seem to melt together to the point where the outline of the front sight is hard to make out.

You should carefully investigate this as soon as possible because it's also possible that your gun suffers from a premature unlock problem. If the weapon unlocks too early it can actually throw the bullet off target by a significant margin. What is a couple of inches at 5 yards can turn into feet at 25.



This.


C4

[Julian]

Have someone you know or who is a good pistol shooter try it and see if it does the samething for whomever that may be.
It's unlikely both of you will be that consistant in the same location unless it's a gun issue.
The up may be the way you shoot, POA/POI or the dots. the left could be the sights or try a little more finger in the trigger.
Just my opinion

[R Moran]

You are concerned with the location of the group, correct?

While your group, could be smaller, especially at 5 yards, it's fairly consistent. Most of the other suggestions, are good for accuracy, not poi/poa issues.

Most people won't/don't jerk the trigger that consistently, or misaligne the sights, that consistently. It's not like your all over the place.

I, like you, have small hands. I always shoot left with Glocks, not so bad with M&P with a small back strap.

What I think is happening, is you are not getting enough finger on the trigger, and as you squeeze the trigger, you tend to push the trigger, and thus the gun left, very hard to see when dry firing, because the gun is not recoiling. This get worse as the trigger gets heavier.

Forget that target shooting stuff, about just the first pad of the finger on the trigger, and centering the gun in the web of your hand, with the bore line aligned with your forearm.

Move the gun around, a little bit, so you can get more finger on the trigger. My thumb knuckle is jammed up against the left side, "beavertail" of the frame. I'm thinking of notching it, like some 1911 BT's.

Dint be afraid to bang those sights over either. Everyone is different, otherwise the sights would be welded on at the factory.

Bob

[wargasm]

Try it at 10 yards with the same target. Make that bullseye a little smaller. Don't "pull" the trigger. Squeeze it. Don't overthink the shot, "feel" it. Be firm on you grip, and don't choke the gun. Keep practicing.

[BCmJUnKie]

You're jerking the trigger, and/or anticipating recoil.

I think. Ask somebody who knows more than I.

Exactly

[drummerdude1188]

High and left could be caused by any number of things ranging from the sights on your weapon being off (and frequently they are) to a failure on your part to align the sights properly. Try having someone else who is able to hold a decent group shoot the weapon and see if it is off for them. Try using a different colored target...something that provides a very clear contrast against your sights. Sometimes people (like me) struggle with shooting black sights against a black bullseye because the sights and the black of the bullseye seem to melt together to the point where the outline of the front sight is hard to make out.

You should carefully investigate this as soon as possible because it's also possible that your gun suffers from a premature unlock problem. If the weapon unlocks too early it can actually throw the bullet off target by a significant margin. What is a couple of inches at 5 yards can turn into feet at 25.


At 5 yards my groups are always similar to the picture, maybe not all as tight but constantly up/left. However at 10 yards and beyond the groups really spread out. The sights on the gun are the factory white 3-dot. Could this be an issue of sight picture? When doing hard front sight focus with both eyes open, the target blurs or "doubles" in my vision. This dosn't really happen at 5y but at 10y its almost easier to look "though" the sights and focus on the target., although ive only tried doing this while dry firing. How would I go about getting someone to check the early unlock?


Thanks for the help guys.

[John_Wayne777]

At 5 yards my groups are always similar to the picture, maybe not all as tight but constantly up/left. However at 10 yards and beyond the groups really spread out. The sights on the gun are the factory white 3-dot. Could this be an issue of sight picture? When doing hard front sight focus with both eyes open, the target blurs or "doubles" in my vision. This dosn't really happen at 5y but at 10y its almost easier to look "though" the sights and focus on the target.


I have the same problem. That's where using a contrasting target or closing your weak eye prove a real benefit. When I shoot for maximum accuracy I generally do so with one eye closed. When you shoot with a target-focused sight picture (looking through the sights) you won't be able to note the small imperfections in the sight picture, and that generally results in larger than desirable groups at longer ranges. You can shoot pretty accurately with that kind of sight picture at closer range, but as the distance increases the more significant the imperfections in that sight picture become. At 25 yards having a front sight that is just a bit too far to the left results in missing the black altogether and barely landing in a scoring ring on some wider notch rear sights. Close one eye if you must for maximum accuracy. At this point you're trying to determine if there's a problem with the pistol or a problem with you. Do whatever you can to remove as many variables as possible to find the cause.



How would I go about getting someone to check the early unlock?


Shoot from a bench or a rest going for maximum accuracy at 5, 7, 10, and 15 yards. If the gun consistently shoots high left and it seems to get higher and lefter as the distance increases, it may well be an unlock issue. Fixing it would require a trip back to S&W.

[R Moran]

Shooting from a bench can effect your POI also, so be careful when zeroing.
Even, LAV recomended I zero at 25mtrs offhand.

Bob

[mark5pt56]

I'm leaning on a weapon/sight problem here. Generally people with bad marksmanship aren't printing small groups like that.

Of course there's sighting error and eye issues, have you checked eye dominance?

[Denali]

High and left could be caused by any number of things ranging from the sights on your weapon being off (and frequently they are) to a failure on your part to align the sights properly. Try having someone else who is able to hold a decent group shoot the weapon and see if it is off for them. Try using a different colored target...something that provides a very clear contrast against your sights. Sometimes people (like me) struggle with shooting black sights against a black bullseye because the sights and the black of the bullseye seem to melt together to the point where the outline of the front sight is hard to make out.

You should carefully investigate this as soon as possible because it's also possible that your gun suffers from a premature unlock problem. If the weapon unlocks too early it can actually throw the bullet off target by a significant margin. What is a couple of inches at 5 yards can turn into feet at 25.

I don't believe his pistol is unlocking early, though I completely agree with your first impression, and I think it likely he is either not properly aligning his sights, or they are simply off and need adjusting.

[wesprt]

It's quite possible the sights are off from the factory. How consistently you're grouping doesn't seem to mesh well with something as inherently inconsistent as jerking the trigger.

Easiest way to tell is to get someone elses gun that shoots to POA and shoot it. If there's a problem with you, it will show with their gun too.